Star Trek: Enterprise - General Discussion

[John Potts]

I never really had a problem with the theme song (though I preferred the instrumental version used over the closing credits), though I didn't like it either. As for the "decontamination scene" I'm sure there was some technobabble reason why they couldn't have had something like "UV showers" where the OA team had to bathe in decontaminating radiation while the camera leered over their naked bodies... in the interest of showing the sort of thing pioneers have to go though and obviously not for pure Fanservice reasons (and if you believe that, I have some land on Titan I can exclusively sell you for a knock down price!).

On ‎09‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 4:16 PM, stillshimpy said:

Archer really sucks and I want Laura Roslin to pop up in a tiny cameo and throw him in a BSG-style airlock.  I know the Federation is not a gig yet, in this premise, but my god, command structure was a known and practiced thing.

It's not even as if they thought humanity was the only Interstellar race out there - they already know that both the Klingons and Vulcans are more advanced, so you'd think Starfleet would choose somebody whose first inclination isn't to piss everyone off. It should have been Picard (or perhaps his 10*Great Grandfather Laurent Picard, who looks exactly like his descendant) commanding this mission, because he could EXPECT most interstellar races would be more advanced.

OTOH, I'm not sure Laura Roslin would Airlock Archer, she did put up with Gaius Baltar , even when she was convinced he was a traitor (though at least he was sometimes useful) - doesn't mean I wouldn't have loved to see that happen! As for the Prime Directive, the writers seemed to have a schizophrenic attitude to it: while it wasn't the "sacred text" it had become in ST-TNG, Enterprise couldn't decide whether it was a good idea or not (it seemed to came down to how Archer was feeling at the time, which is even more worrying).

(Incidentally, Hi, stillshimpy - nice to see you again, so to speak!)

[legaleagle53]

4 hours ago, John Potts said:

As for the Prime Directive, the writers seemed to have a schizophrenic attitude to it: while it wasn't the "sacred text" it had become in ST-TNG, Enterprise couldn't decide whether it was a good idea or not (it seemed to came down to how Archer was feeling at the time, which is even more worrying).

The Prime Directive as such didn't exist in the 22nd Century (the Federation hadn't even been founded yet), and at first, nobody had an issue with its nonexistence, since in the 23rd (and especially the 24th) Century it was such a draconian law that people constantly questioned its moral and ethical value anytime it prevented someone from interfering in the cultural, scientific, or political affairs of a planet ostensibly for the planet's own good.  To take an example from Voyager, if a planet has been caught knowingly raping a sister planet's environment in such a way that the sister planet and all of its inhabitants will eventually die, shouldn't someone who has the power to intervene and save the sister planet do so? Tom Paris tried to do just that, but Janeway stopped him at the last minute, demoted him, and sentenced him to thirty days in the brig for attempted violation of the Prime Directive -- and even his fellow shipmates told him that he got what he deserved.  So why such a draconian law in the first place?

Enterprise answered that question by showing exactly what could and often did happen when its crew members interfered in the cultural, socioeconomic, scientific, or political affairs of a planet for what they thought was the planet's own good.  "Cogenitor" in particular drove this point home when Trip's well-intentioned attempt to "liberate" a Cogenitor ended in a tragedy that destroyed three lives, including the life of the Cogenitor he was trying to "liberate."  The Prime Directive developed out of a desire to to curb humanity's tendency to judge another planet's culture without knowing all the facts and history of that planet's society and prevent such tragedies and interplanetary incidents.  The idea was that different cultures and races should be allowed to determine their own courses without interference "for the greater good," since no one has the right to decide what "the greater good" for someone else is.

Edited January 14, 2017 by legaleagle53

[John Potts]

Yes, I saw those episodes and am aware that there WAS no Prime Directive in Enterprise - but take an episode like Dear Doctor which seems to be the origin of it. Leaving aside the scientific fails in the episode (like the persistent belief in Trek that evolution "has a plan" for a species, which is pretty much the exact OPPOSITE of how evolution works* - mutations happen, ones that increase survival of a species will tend to thrive, those which tend to decrease it will die out), Phlox determines that the Valakians are dying out due to a genetic condition. However, Phlox finds a cure but decides not to release it. But it cannot possibly be in the Valakians' interest to become extinct - OK, so the episode gives us the Menk, wo will inherit the planet (and are apparently going to surpass them as a species). But then why intervene any time when a species is threatened by another one? If it's not about preserving the diversity of Galactic species, why ever intervene? Why not simply be like the Organians and just observe? And if species can die out but the overall good is served, why intervene when one species attacks another? Surely, the "fitter" species will win and the Galaxy as a whole will be stronger for it (this is pretty much the philosophy the Shadows in Babylon 5, for essentially that reason). I would say the lesson of Congenitor would be more "don't intervene before you know all the facts, and then do so with caution" since (IIRC) the end result of Trip's intervention was the death of the individual he was looking to save.

I could probably ramble on for several more lines, but I'll conclude with this: as a guideline, non-interference is fine, only it frequently became seen as an inflexible law (SF Debris did a whole extra video on the Prime Directive on this episode which I where I stole a lot this post!)

* Unless you want to posit that Evolution is "God's Plan" - but Gene Roddenbury would certainly reject that, too.

[BigBeagle]

On 1/13/2017 at 0:21 AM, friendperidot said:

T'Pol sure does spend a lot of time mostly naked in that blue light chamber, doesn't she?

One thing this show did with great efficiency was finding excuses to Get Jolene Blaylock down to her skin

Edited January 15, 2017 by BigBeagle
Spelin ar gud

[legaleagle53]

But that was the point of the Prime Directive: The Federation had no desire to play God with other species because history had taught the Federation's founders the hard way that any time one plays God, there's always hell to pay in the end.  That's why the Prime Directive ultimately became so inflexible and draconian that Starfleet members (and eventually Timefleet members) valued obedience to it even above their own lives.

[stillshimpy]

On 1/14/2017 at 8:22 AM, John Potts said:

It's not even as if they thought humanity was the only Interstellar race out there - they already know that both the Klingons and Vulcans are more advanced, so you'd think Starfleet would choose somebody whose first inclination isn't to piss everyone off. It should have been Picard (or perhaps his 10*Great Grandfather Laurent Picard, who looks exactly like his descendant) commanding this mission, because he could EXPECT most interstellar races would be more advanced.

 

1

Hi, John Potts :-)  Great to see your screenname.  I don't think I've ever gotten around to telling you that you are the reason I ended up finally -- successfully -- watching all the Treks.  I kept trying and failing, kind of spectacularly.  I'd wander into the worst episodes ever, apparently well known as howlers, pretty much without fail.  Except for one DS9 that just stuck with me.  Over on BSG's TWoP forum, when I outlined the plot of that episode, you told me the title of it, some of the background (about why Kira seemed to have so much antipathy towards the Cardassians) and several other things.  

So we kept going back and forth on it.  You had the patience of a saint and I tried watching from the start of TNG -- people told me the specific parts that would lag -- and after a lot of false starts, I finally got there with your help.   Thank you for that, I ended up finding them all worthwhile for different reasons. 

Telling people their gods are false is the same thing as attempting to one-up their belief system, I think.  I'd always watch in horror as Picard did that but it was also humanizing to a character who otherwise had next to no flaws.  

After getting my feet under me here with a few more episodes, it's clear that I'm actually going to enjoy Enterprise but I think I sort of need to view it as a Star Trek AU because it feels like it's already fucking pretty hardcore with some established canon.   The Klingons showing up, looking like Klingons startled me.  Also, in my long, long list of times I complain about the Klingons, this won't be one of them.  In the "Trip gets accidentally knocked up by eye-banging a lizard person" episode, I actually really enjoyed the quieter intensity of the "no really, we'll fuck you up if we ever meet again" Klingons.  They were menacing without seeming like rage addicts.  Good work by those actors.  

My husband keeps laughing at Archer because he's so emo.  "What do you think this is, a slave ship?!?"  I get that playing a ST captain is always fraught with peril.  An actor has to make the role his or her own and not just blend with the background.  However, both Archer and Trip's tendency towards being overly emotive is -- again while a good establishing "they didn't know what they were doing here yet" trait -- is still a little puzzling. 

New frontiers, so let's choose not one but two of the most reactionary types but having accepted that trait about them both, I'm starting to like the cast chemistry.   

T'Pol is supposed to be the same T'Pol from TOS fame or no?  

In the "I'm pregnant and am sprouting nipples where there are no mammary glands, try not to think about it too much" episode I think, as absurd as the setup was, that's where the show just gelled for me.  They started exploring how freaking dangerous space exploration would be.  We met up with Klingons giving what I thought were rock solid performances and the personalities of the cast started to work rather than seem "Uh...whoa...this is a departure in tone" ....

The thing I couldn't stop thinking about?  When the artificial gravity was off, I couldn't help think about Archer's dog floating around in his quarters.  

Edited January 15, 2017 by stillshimpy

[John Potts]

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

 I don't think I've ever gotten around to telling you that you are the reason I ended up finally -- successfully -- watching all the Treks.  I kept trying and failing, kind of spectacularly.  I'd wander into the worst episodes ever, apparently well known as howlers, pretty much without fail.

Thanks, but I have absolutely no recollection of doing that! I mean, that totally sounds like me so I'm sure it happened, but... I do remember a load of good natured argument over BSG and GoT though. Anyway:

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

T'Pol is supposed to be the same T'Pol from TOS fame or no?

I think you mean T'Pau, who we meet in The Forge and is a younger version of the character who resurrects Spock in Star Trek III(though it's possible T'Pol is mentioned in TOS at some point).

 

2 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

 When the artificial gravity was off, I couldn't help think about Archer's dog floating around in his quarters.

And now I can't stop thinking of a little doggie floating through the air and letting out a gentle pee stream as he spins around!

(Incidentally, hope all the dogs are OK - is your current picture one of them?)

[stillshimpy]

Ha, well I'm not surprised you don't recall it, as I'm sure it was just kind of a routine "explaining Trek to the non-watcher" thing for you but for me it was a case of "Huh, okay, that does sound interesting, I'll try again.  Oh, okay, so it gets better after the first season on TNG?  Good to know...good to know..."  

I'm sure it was nothing out of the ordinary for you but I appreciate it nonetheless, and thank you!  

(Incidentally, hope all the dogs are OK - is your current picture one of them?)

Yes, that's my big dog, Oscar :-)  He's our 'found abandoned on a highway' dog and he's Great Pyrenees/Plott Hound mix (had a DNA text run) so he's kind of a gigantic fellow.  He's bonded with our smaller dog, Pud, so while you're petting him, she'll walk under him like he's a bridge and pop out on the other side.  It's super amusing.  

And now I can't stop thinking of a little doggie floating through the air and letting out a gentle pee stream as he spins around!

"This is an unwelcome development!!!! Bipedal food-giver, quit trying to drown yourself and help me!!!"  

So I'm just going to ask up front:  Is the dog going to be okay throughout the series?  TNG was good about Spot (of the fluid gender identity) so I'm not living in too much fear but yes, "Floating beagles in spppppaaaacccccceeee"  (Lost in Space theme plays) was what came to mind there :-)  

[BigBeagle]

Fear not for Porthos, shimpy

[SmithW6079]

On 1/14/2017 at 9:42 PM, BigBeagle said:

One thing this show did with great efficiency was finding excuses to Get Jolene Blaylock down to her skin

Trip too. There was the episode where Trip saves the ship while he's dressed only in his underwear. 

[John Potts]

On ‎16‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 0:12 AM, stillshimpy said:

So I'm just going to ask up front:  Is the dog going to be okay throughout the series?

I'm now kind of curious how you'll feel about A Night in Sickbay: it's early Season 2 and is notoriously terrible. However, it is very Porthos-centric so maybe you'll like it. (Spoiler: Porthos survives).

[stillshimpy]

On 1/19/2017 at 5:43 AM, John Potts said:

'm now kind of curious how you'll feel about A Night in Sickbay: it's early Season 2 and is notoriously terrible. However, it is very Porthos-centric so maybe you'll like it. (Spoiler: Porthos survives).

 

 

 

Oh lord, that sounds like it might be harrowing but I'll let you know what I thought of it.  

I'm 16 episodes in on Star Trek: Enterprise and it's kind of a mixed bag.   I can understand Scott Bakula's choices as Archer even if they aren't really fitting for a Starfleet commander.  Hell, they're already pretty freaking dated and overly reactionary by today's standards and that's one area I'm just going to continue to handwave.  The Treks always struggle the most at trying to depict any technology that is presently in use.  So when Archer stops and has everyone pose for a picture, there's suddenly an amusing "Welp, that technology is already outdated" ...kind of like how people on TNG would sneakernet reports around the ship.   So that kind of stuff I just try to ignore.  

I get why Bakula and the actor playing Trip (I'm sorry, I don't have his name handy) went for a kind of space cowboy vibe.   They were really stuck with William Shatner's "he's supposed to come much later in the timeline" choices as indicating things about Star Fleet.  

Those kind of broad choices are really interfering with my ability to just go with it but I'm trying. 

I wasn't expecting quite so much Klingon action in this series and I'm not sure what to make of it.  TOS Klingons didn't look anything like TNG Klingons so to have something predating TOS where the Klingons look like Klingons from TNG forward is really weirdly jarring.  Again, I understand the choice, they wanted the audience from the recent Treks and were going with what they had established.  It's just in my head, it all feels very AU-worthy. 

But I like the characters, for the most part.  Even if Reed's dramatic letter recordings were worthy of fucking Camille in the over-the-top hand-wringing and fear category.   That was both funny and eventually irritating as hell.  Shut up and die like an aviator, dude.  

T'Pol has grown on me too and I actually enjoyed the most recent Klingon story except, I swear, what the fuck was with the "Oh, here's a hold full of live animals, kept in the dark, waiting for slaughter" ...Klingons: still in need of anger management -- wasn't on display.  Klingons:  I want someone to kick their asses on general principles handily nipped in to fill the "what will I dislike about them today?"  slot. 

I'm currently a little nonplussed by the overly coy time-travelers with an agenda.  Another character that belonged in a film from the 1930s.  

As near as I can tell, the greatest value of this series is in enjoying the cast.  

By the way, they stuck Scott Bakula with one of the most awkward lines I've ever witnessed and heaven help him, the poor man tried.  "Until the day that someone produces that (pause for emphasis, make sure to weirdly weight the next word)...directive...."  about not playing God.  Uh, well, I liked the story choices there but I'd love to see the line reads they rejected because that was clunkier than hell.  It's just not Bakula's fault, the line was a fucking nightmare.   

So I seem to do best with this series when I kind of divorce it from known Treks and then I like it just fine.  When they go too far out of their way to achieve tie-ins there are lines like that, that show the strain.  Seriously, did they have to have him use the word directive? "I'm hinting at the establishment of the famed in song and story Prime Directive!! Also, someone removed the words subtlety and nuance form my personal lexicon!"  

One thing I love is that they are bumping into worlds and people that seem more diverse which is fun.  It seems like they tried to do as much retroactive world-building as possible and some of it is more successful than others.   

Edited January 22, 2017 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

That was odd timing on my part but I guess it turned out to be a good thing, from my perspective.  I commented before watching episode 16 vs. after it and that gave me a chance to really think about how I felt about the series prior this one.  The characterizations, plot, writing, etc.  

Good grief, episode 16 is kind of a problematic one.  Points to the writers, I guess, for actually trying to address issues of rape using a mind-melding parallel.  The episode is likely 15 years old at this point so there's a good reason it seems like a blunt-force fictional treatment of an issue that is still incredibly present in our world.  I appreciate that they were trying to be very forward thinking, for that time,  but like a lot of early attempts at addressing serious problems, it's clunky in the rearview mirror.  Kind of like Guess Who's Coming to Dinner is now the most ham-fisted, preachy thing around but at the time was ground breaking. 

Points to the show for just boldly going there and for knowing what they wanted to say.  

Unfortunately, that episode was kind of a hot mess in all other capacities.   The Merry Band of Feeling Vulcans were, starting with the superficial, as distracting as hell to look at because good lord, the wigs set new standards for "stolen from a knockoff Barbie" so it was an act of will not to laugh the entire time.  The story lacked anything resembling nuance.  They kind of unintentionally had Trip not understanding what the fuck a boundary actually is.  Jeez, did that ever not sit well with me.  "I have nothing to say to my father"  "But you'll regret it when he's dead"  put that sucker on repeat for about five exchanges ...and then it maddeningly ends with the guy whose boundaries Trip was shitting all over thanking Trip for having done so.   

Way to mix your messages, show. 

Then T'Pol's rape -- it was so clearly a parallel for rape -- was disturbing as hell partially because that creeper was giving off the "ditch that guy and call an Uber home" vibe from jump.   So whereas I appreciate the attempt to address consent very early on in our cultural awareness of the concept of a cultural mindset contributing to rape, it ultimately fell flat on its face when, for reasons that I am not getting to this moment, they had Archer practically have to ride in on a white charger to save T'Pol from the increasingly bad man. 

Jeez, show.  

In terms of character progression, I do have to give them credit for arcing that really well.   They'd very carefully built in T'Pol's more humanizing aspects (going along with Hoshi and Trip in the decontamination shower happening just prior to this) as well as her growing attachment to the crew, so the episode hurt plenty.   It just -- probably because it is a 15 year old episode -- reverted to some kind of patriarchal structure wherein the lead dude in charge ends up intervening to protect her.  

It really isn't often that Star Trek touches on a very current societal problem because they do work primarily with metaphors and symbolism.  This one both benefitted and suffered from cutting a little too close to the bone.  It is the first episode that really had me emotionally responding.  It also really distracted me from the atrocious Vulcan wigs, so there was that! 

Edited January 23, 2017 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Oh dear, I just watched the Dean Stockwell episode.  I am deeply uncertain about a temporal war being in play this early in the game.  I don't understand why the freaking Ferengi just wandered by when I swear to dog I remember the rather offensive TNG that introduced them as being their introduction (and man, was it ever a mortifying one).  

This series is very odd.  I like it because of the cast.  I like it because right now, I really need to see a series that basically is about decent human beings, going forth and trying to do the right thing.  It has its missteps, it has the earmarkings of "This was on UPN, wasn't it?  I can tell by all the busty female aliens, for starter"  ....and it suffers from doing things that don't make a metric ton of sense.  Klingons that look like TNG Klingons.  Uh...oooookay?  I'll roll with that.  Ferengi! Uh....what?   

And then Dean Stockwell's "I wish we had met under better circumstances" was fairly hilarious because only if everyone had stopped action and turned to the camera with a giant stage-wink could that have line have been a little less organic.  

Yeah, so far it's the cast that I like and I like Scott Bakula because he's Scott Bakula, but Archer's driving me up a tree.  I love Tucker (Trip) and I've really warmed up to Reed, Hoshi and T'Pol too.   Phlox hasn't really gotten me one way or another.  

Archer, thy name is inconsistency.  Cut it out, Beagle Guardian, cut it out.  

Edited January 31, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Maverick]

 The Klingon issue is explained in season 4.   As for the Ferengi, yes they first face-to-face meeting with them in is TNG.  But the writers were just too cutsey and thought it would be super cool to have them on Enteprise and concocted this this whole contrived plot where the Ferengi put everyone to sleep so they can rob the ship blind, thus no one on the ship (even Die Hard Tucker, the only one left awake) being able to identify them.  Of course it makes zero sense if they ran across the Ferengi that close to Earth that it would take 200 years to actually meet them.  Still, it's not as bad as when the Borg visited Enterprise and the writers twisted themselves into knots to avoid the Borg saying the name Borg.  Even though that's one of the only 3 things the Borg say.  Like, always.   

[stillshimpy]

Quote

.  Of course it makes zero sense if they ran across the Ferengi that close to Earth that it would take 200 years to actually meet them.  Still, it's not as bad as when the Borg visited Enterprise and the writers twisted themselves into knots to avoid the Borg saying the name Borg.  Even though that's one of the only 3 things the Borg say.  Like, always.  

 

 

 

 

See, that was part of what was bothering me.   Sure, Tucker made a good Bruce Willis stand-in and the actor is a great sport about running around with the majority of his kit off (the UPN's idea of gender equality, I guess) and I did note that they cutesy-poo'd it up by making sure no one saw them but it was a case of "Wha....What are they even doing that close to Earth???"

Dude, they have them meet the Borg???  Yeah, I'll wait and see how that pans out but that sounds like a truly terrible idea.  

The writing here is frequently quite odd.  The webbed critter that encases people in its glop for no real reason (why did something that was part of a whole wander far enough away to latch onto the "eating? Yeah, that's like fucking!" aliens' ship....never creep into it and....plot contrivance overload there.  Also, everyone getting into each other's minds is seventy -five thousand different kinds of wrong.  I guess we can assume that the two crewmen encased in there so that it wouldn't just be Archer and Tucker romping around in each other's heads, had nothing going on in there that was even of the slightest interest.   Also, shame on the show for having the female crew member be the second to be captured but out like a light for a ridiculous amount of time....as well as unable to flee.   Seriously, chica got webbed because she was displaying one of the Scifi Tropes:  Survival instincts of a lemming.   "It has him, sir, he's trapped, I have time to narrate all this but am daft enough not to have done so from a safe remove!  Also, as I am a girl person, I'll pass out for the bulk of this."  I'd have handed out gold stars if they'd had the guts to knock out crewmen Movie Obsession and have her captured solely because she was of the "Never leave a man behind!! I fight and narrate!!"    

And Reed might just be the most unevenly written character I've ever seen.  

But at least the makeup on the "we demand an apology before we'll help you save your crew members" was super cool. 

Space, the final frontier, where we apparently will encounter a race even more sexually repressed than Earthlings.  No small feat.   I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be thrilled if strangers started doing the do in front of me but it wouldn't present a barrier to trying to save their lives....and I'm descended from the literal Puritans, for the love of god, gods, and the wizard Ted. 

Edited January 31, 2017 by stillshimpy

[John Potts]

23 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

 The webbed critter that encases people in its glop for no real reason (why did something that was part of a whole wander far enough away to latch onto the "eating? Yeah, that's like fucking!" aliens' ship....never creep into it and....plot contrivance overload there.  Also, everyone getting into each other's minds is seventy -five thousand different kinds of wrong.  I guess we can assume that the two crewmen encased in there so that it wouldn't just be Archer and Tucker romping around in each other's heads, had nothing going on in there that was even of the slightest interest.   Also, shame on the show for having the female crew member be the second to be captured but out like a light for a ridiculous amount of time....as well as unable to flee.   Seriously, chica got webbed because she was displaying one of the Scifi Tropes:  Survival instincts of a lemming.   "It has him, sir, he's trapped, I have time to narrate all this but am daft enough not to have done so from a safe remove!  Also, as I am a girl person, I'll pass out for the bulk of this."  I'd have handed out gold stars if they'd had the guts to knock out crewmen Movie Obsession and have her captured solely because she was of the "Never leave a man behind!! I fight and narrate!!"

Not gonna lie: that one is about my favourite episode of Enterprise, for a couple of reasons:

1) The aliens feel genuinely alien. Too often alien races are portrayed as, "Like humans, only angrier (Klingons), like humans only more uptight (Vulcans) or like humans only more suspicious (Romulans)*". It was nice to see an alien who acted as if something we did completely unthinkingly was offensive because... alien.

2) The whole crew worked together to find a solution. Reed has to invent a new forcefield, Mayweather has to track down the alien goop carriers, Hoshi has to talk to them, Phlox has to work out how to extract our heroes and T'Pol has to run the ship without the Captain (though arguably, that's a lot easier than running the ship WITH the Captain... but I digress).

Yes, there are too many scenes with Archer talking about water polo (OK, I know he's number one on the cast list, but couldn't they just have an "Archer-lite" episode?) and we have the proto red shirt who goes, "Hmm, I wonder if this weird alien thing could be dangerous? Maybe if I stand here and let it kill me my colleagues will find out!" At least she survived (probably because she was wearing blue) but she deserved a Darwin Award there!

* And how weird is it that Spellcheck recognises "Klingon" as a word but not "Romulan"?

[stillshimpy]

Not gonna lie: that one is about my favourite episode of Enterprise, for a couple of reasons:

I agree, but unfortunately Stargate, in a very rare move (as they were always rip-offing the Treks) beat them to that depiction with an incredibly similar story.  I mean, incredibly similar.  Pretty much sans water polo.    Turn about is fair play and all that so I don't fault them, I'd just seen the story before too.  

[stillshimpy]

Well, season one finishes up with three incredibly odd episodes.  The relentless march of HoYay that was Trip and Archer in the desert, clinging to each other, frequently shirtless and sweaty, I was in stitches.  I guess they intentionally did that as an homage to the fact that Trek launched slash fiction and I admit to getting a kick out of how much they just leaned into, "Here you go!! Back before gay people had any kind of representation on TV, Kirk and Spock launched the tradition (unwittingly on the part of TOS)  of the bromance that would be a stand-in for gay representation.  Here's an updated version where we lean so far in, you'll expect Archer and Trip to confess their true feelings by episode's end!" 

Aside from Brother Justin of Carnivale fame being present with a face tattoo that seemed to scream, "Hmmm.  The actor is actually kind of an appealing dude, so let's draw a devil beard on his chin to give the audience a clue not to fully trust him!" that was an oddly fun episode even if it did seem to be swinging from the heels in acknowledging TOS's "we launched Slash, here, you're welcome!"  I enjoyed it for how fully the actors just committed to "Yeah, we know...it's purposeful...and we're now going to lean in!" of it all.  

Then Risa is just an episode that...wow.  Uh.  Huh.  So the gender politics there are interesting and once again, Reed is the anyway-the-plot-blows characterization.  Trip and Reed just glorying in their piggishness when it came to ogling women and be the grossest guys who weigh the worth of women out superficially without qualm was clearly purposeful because they end up with the just desserts for that one.  It's just the gender-politics are dated for now so it really stuck out there.  

That's an argument I'm always having with a friend of mine, though.  If a feminist endeavor has done its job it will not date well because society will have moved past it.  I loved that the person to actually have an enjoyable leave was Hoshi.  I was so afraid they would damsel-in-distress her with the weird, non-blinking guy with whom she ended up having a no-ties good time.  That said, the Archer, Reed, and Tucker apparently are either too gullible to be allowed out without adult supervision or as gross as high school football players and completely deserve what they got.  How the hell did Archer think the Chinese Crested dog got onto his freaking balcony?? Did it teleport?? Clue number one that she wasn't to be trusted.   It was a mainly odd episode but it had decent intent, I think....?  I laughed aloud at Phlox's interrupted hibernation and T'Pol gives good "straightman" for the comedy.  

But shit, that finale is problematic.  There doesn't seem to be a season two thread so I'll just discuss the first part:  How could the writers not have spotted that it was incredibly weird that pretty much everyone was more concerned with "Wah!! We won't get to keep going on our trip! It's not fair!!" than "Shit, we just killed 3600 people?!? Entirely innocent people just waiting to greet us?? FUCK!!"  

Aside from an early flinch or two, the plot swerves away from "they feel guilty and grief-stricken" and directly into them all being self-absorbed to an alarming degree about an entire colony being obliterated.  

Season one really has three episodes in a row that have writing that is far from nuanced and the fixation on the end of the mission vs. "we are all really weirded out that we just visited a 911-without-animosity on another culture" was....well...it was not what I was expecting, really.  

Edited February 5, 2017 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Yikes.  Shockwave Part II is not an auspicious start to the second season.   The name of the Suliban always makes me wince a bit, what with the seemingly purposeful two-letters-from-the-Taliban thing but that's kind of to be expected for the time in which this was written.  It just has all the subtlety of an eighth-graders creative writing choice.  Still, not even close to the biggest problem with the resolution. 

They brought back Daniel's sealed quarters which was a nice piece of continuity but it was just an odd note to hit:  everyone is relieved that they were proven innocent in the death of 3600 people but...it's not actually a good resolution.  "We were used to murder 3600 people by nefarious forces, trying to get us sent home!" is actually more troubling as a problem for Starfleet to contend with than "we had a leaking plasma vent and blew up an entire colony in a completely accidental manner".  

Also, that they're all far more troubled that they have to go home than "Holy shit, we killed 3600 people!" all along is a very strange choice to make.  

Incidentally, on FB a friend was mentioning something about meowing Star Trek themes to her cat (just...go with that...okay? It can't really be that much of a surprise that most of my friends are slightly goofy) and I mentioned that Enterprise would be the easiest to meow but was also entirely mortifying.  

That's how I was kind of spoiled to why this series is referred to as "polarizing"  ...I knew that having read it on the series description page of memory alpha but I thought it would have to do with the retcon fails already witnessed.   Then someone cheerfully informed me that the federation will cosign sexual enslavement at some point in this season.  I literally found that out yesterday and now I'm really leery of this season.  

I guess we'll see but man, between the self-involved reactions of ...oh...everyone... about the colony massacre and the rumor of terrible sexual treatment of another species, I'm going to have to gird my courage here. On the colony:  they're still dead so keep the glee to a minimum or have some regret that you were just used as a tool to murder.  

The writing of this series seems to struggle with tempering and layering.  

[Lebanna]

Actually, stillshimpy, translating the theme into cat might actually improve it. See below:

 

It's been a meow meow,

meowin' meow meow me' meow,

It's been a meow meow,

But meow MEOW me' meow meow meow,

An' meow'll meow my meow meow meow at meow,

Meow'll meow the meowowow,

And meow meow gonna meow meow down meow more, 

No meow meow gonna meow my meow,

Coz meow meow MEEEOOOWWW meow meow MEOWOWOW 

Meow meowing meow meow meow meow meow meow,

Meow meow MEEEOOOWWW meow MEOWOWOW,

Meow meow meow meowowow,

Meow meow MEEEOOOWWW meow meow MEOWOWOW,

Meowone's gonna meow meow meow me,

Meow meow MEEEOOOWWW meowow meowowow,

Meow meow meowow

(Meowow meowow)

Meow meow meowow,

Meow meow meow MEEEOOOOWOWOWOWWWWW.

 

Yup. Definitely better. Way less mortifying. (I once had a housemate for a year who sang the Enterprise theme song every morning, in the shower. That's what used to permeate through my bedroom wall to wake me up. There was no escape. He said it was inspirational. Deep hurting. Still not over it.)

Edited February 5, 2017 by Lebanna

[Helena Dax]

Here, rewatching.

Season one is so bland. There are some good moments, but that's all. Whoever decided to turn the Vulcans into assholes made a mistake. Every time Archer was complaining about the evil Vulcans who wouldn't give their technology to Humans I wanted to punch him in the face (and I love Scott Bakula). And the way he treated T'Pol, omg. I don't even understand why she stayed there. I know their relationship evolves eventually, but it doesn't make a good first impression. 

I like Trip, though. He's a hothead, but he means well and he's got a lot of charm. I also like T'Pol. The actress did a great job with her, imo; you can see her evolution and the way she slowly starts to open up to her crewmates.  It's very subtle, but it's there, and I'm so, so sorry for the actress every time I see her used as a piece of meat. 

The guest stars barely make an impression,. Some of them are very good actors, but they're playing uninteresting characters (Dean Stockwell). I only enjoyed Clancy Brown and Fionnula Flannagan's characters. 

Dear doctor is a good episode with an appalling conclusion.  I really liked Vox Sola, it's got a great music and I loved T'Pol and Hoshi working together. Fallen Hero's a good one too. 

[friendperidot]

I think Jolene Blaylock has amazing abs! And Linda Park has a smoking hot body too, but for me Dominic Keating was hubba hubba! The other night at the end of the episode, I wasn't really paying attention, but at the end, in the blue room those three were down to their skivvies and I hadn't really noticed him before, whoa! There should be more episodes with him shirtless. I know, I'm swimming in the shallow end of the pool right now. About the show, I'm not paying much attention and if I weren't so tired by the time it's on, I'd flip on Netflix. I'm staying up because NYPD Blue is on next and even though I've seen the entire show at least once now, it's good writing and acting.

[John Potts]

On ‎05‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 7:06 PM, stillshimpy said:

Then someone cheerfully informed me that the federation will cosign sexual enslavement at some point in this season.  I literally found that out yesterday and now I'm really leery of this season.  

I'm now trying to think if that would be "the one with the Orion girls" (Bound), "The one where they transport the Princess to a wedding" (Precious Cargo?) or "The One with the Tri-Gendered Species" (Congenitor?) - because while they all contain "questionable" sexual politics, I wouldn't exactly describe them as "cosigning on sexual slavery." There were a lot of... unusual choices that TPTB wrote into their plots when it came to sexual politics, though.

[Reishe]

I wasn't that familiar with the Trek franchise overall--saw ToS in syndication as a kid, watched a few seasons each of TNG and Voyager when they were first on. But I listened to the audiobook of The 50-Year Mission, an oral history of the entire franchise*, and was intrigued by the complex web of personalities who made the various shows and movies what they were. One of the things that stuck with me was something Gene Roddenberry said (or someone said about him), which was that it was a sign of how liberated (crew) women were in the ToS world b/c they could get away with wearing those ridiculously short uniforms--they could be as sexy as they wanted to and it was some sort of empowering gesture. Umm... yeah. 

Anyway, I decided to watch Enterprise on Netflix, and I'm currently on Season 3. And gosh darn it, we've got a show that was written and produced in this century and yet we see T'Pol in skin-tight jumpsuits that appear to be painted on, not to mention her ridiculous midriff-baring satiny pjs. I never saw the Voyagers with Seven of Nine, but get the impression they did the same thing with her and her skin-tight costume and high heels, and I can only conclude that the Powers That Be decided that they could no longer get away with "empowering" female crewmembers, but there wouldn't be an outcry if "alien" women continued to serve as demographic-bait to appeal to boys and young men, because tv shows are the result of sometimes-extensive negotiation between creative directors and network executives. And btw the people interviewed in the book regarding Enterprise keep lamenting at how hard it was to find an actress who was both "smoking hot" and could act, so apparently it was out of the question that the character wouldn't be a sex object. Sigh. All I know is that I have grown to like T'Pol, but it takes me out of the scene whenever she's dressed to appeal to the adolescents, and not as her character would have dressed herself.

*The book (actually two) is quite fun if you enjoy oral histories, however be warned that the production staff of the audiobook was lazy and allowed all five or six readers to guess at the correct pronunciation of actors' and characters' names, resulting in a free-for-all of mispronunciations that really grate. 

[legaleagle53]

50 minutes ago, Reishe said:

I wasn't that familiar with the Trek franchise overall--saw ToS in syndication as a kid, watched a few seasons each of TNG and Voyager when they were first on. But I listened to the audiobook of The 50-Year Mission, an oral history of the entire franchise*, and was intrigued by the complex web of personalities who made the various shows and movies what they were. One of the things that stuck with me was something Gene Roddenberry said (or someone said about him), which was that it was a sign of how liberated (crew) women were in the ToS world b/c they could get away with wearing those ridiculously short uniforms--they could be as sexy as they wanted to and it was some sort of empowering gesture. Umm... yeah. 

Actually, the actresses on those shows would back Gene up on this one.  Grace Lee Whitney has made a point of stating in interviews that the short skirts were her idea, not Gene's.  In the first season of TOS, the women wore uniforms that were identical to the men's, including long slacks.  Grace went to the producers and said, "Hey, I've got great legs.  Why not let me show them off?" Hence the micro-minis that became standard Starfleet issue beginning with the second season.  And other actresses from TOS have expressly stated that those barely-there outfits were what they wanted to wear.  Remember that the sexual revolution was in full swing in the 60s, and the feminist mindset then was that dressing in such outfits actually was empowering because it meant that women could be as free to express themselves sexually as men were.  That mindset is what exists in 2017, especially among women under about 40 -- I've seen women wearing office attire that makes some of those barely-there outfits look downright Victorian in comparison, and nobody bats an eye.  You're judging the practices of the 60s by the standards of the wrong era.

Edited April 9, 2017 by legaleagle53

[kassygreene]

The women wore uniform pants in both pilots; the mini-skirt (with matching diaper pants) in the regularly-filmed television episodes.

And it was the sixties; mini-skirts were shocking, indecent, and unladylike, and having the freedom (liberation) to wear them was empowerment.

[Maverick]

 Kira in DS9 also had a skintight uniform and high heels.  Which I always thought was ridiculous.  She was an ex-terrorist now second in command of the most strategic post in the quadrant.  It really didn't make sense "sexy n skintight" was an option in the Bajoran Militia uniform code.   In all of these cases, it never made sense for the characters to be dressed that way.  Seven was an ex-drone who shied away from social interaction in general, much less being interested in making herself sexually attractive.  Kira was supposed to be wearing a military uniform.  And the Vulcans dress for practicality not to look hot.

[Joe]

2 hours ago, Maverick said:

 Kira in DS9 also had a skintight uniform and high heels.  Which I always thought was ridiculous.  She was an ex-terrorist now second in command of the most strategic post in the quadrant.  It really didn't make sense "sexy n skintight" was an option in the Bajoran Militia uniform code.   In all of these cases, it never made sense for the characters to be dressed that way.  Seven was an ex-drone who shied away from social interaction in general, much less being interested in making herself sexually attractive.  Kira was supposed to be wearing a military uniform.  And the Vulcans dress for practicality not to look hot.

I partially agree with you, but Kira's uniform was in the style of other Bajorans on DS9. Look at the third picture. Odo. Anara. Brilgar. And the uniforms are of similar colours to Starfleet. However, IRL when producers cast a lead woman, they usually make sure to dress her in a form-fitting or sexy outfit. I have no in-universe defences for the other examples, though.

[Maverick]

  That third picture is from the pilot.  You Can tell because she has the longer hair.  In that episode she does wear the standard uniform, but it was changed after that.  The first variant is more tailored but looks more like the other uniforms and has the larger shoulders.  It goes through at least another couple of changes.  The entire silhouette gets streamlined and it the final season she gets the open/low cut neckline.

[Joe]

Fair enough. It's been a fair while since I last watched, and I hazily remember her in the uniform at least most of the time.

[Reishe]

legaleagle53 and kassygreene: Fair enough.

[friendperidot]

I'm on round 3 of some of the episodes, I still don't pay much attention to the screen, just listen and glance. But, I'm coming to like something about this series that I don't think even happened in the original series. I like that the characters are unsure of themselves, afraid of what they are facing, realizing that they are the first humans to go as far away from home as they are doing, trying to find their way in the universe. Hoshi, in particular, she is claustrophobic, she doesn't like having her matter scrambled and put back together (with a very good reason, as it turned out), most of the crew was unsure of the transporter. Later, it became so matter of fact and all of the shows used it. In the original series no one ever expressed trepidation, they just fearlessly went about destroying, I mean exploring what ever species they met. 

And now that I am on the 3rd round of some of the episodes, hands down my favorite were the ones where Archer was taken back into an alternate universe of WWII. I keep remembering that those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.

[Joe]

Wow. One of my favourite podcasts just put out a terrible episode defending Enterprise! The podcast itself is usually pretty good, but this time not so much. So I'm going to rebut some bits here.

Mele says that the theme song is good, and that people who don't like it don't understand it. That Trek is all about diversity, and that it should include the music too. Fair enough, but I still find it to be a terrible bit of music. Bad is bad. Maybe if it was good I wouldn't mind it, but as it stands, no.

The Klingon forehead/Soong thing. I suppose it depends on your attitude towards meta commentary/humour. I find it jarring and inappropriate. "Oh look, we're referencing/explaining/setting up this other thing." Congratulations. I understand it. But it's unnecessary and distracting. Your work should stand alone, without the need for such things.

The mirror universe. On the other hand, I like the mirror universe. It's fun to visit for a bit, and that's really the point. And if there are an infinite number of alternate universes, all different in some way, there's going to be one that has all the same people acting in different ways.

If you do listen to the podcast, keep listening through to the actual end, not just when they do their spiels and the music plays.

[John Potts]

I wish people wouldn't go, "Everyone criticises the theme song and never gave the series a chance!" I never liked the theme, but I would have overlooked that if the stories/characters were compelling - which (to me) they weren't. My problem with Archer wasn't that he was humourless, it was that he was utterly undiplomatic, which you'd think when you're heading out into the unknown, especially when you know there are a lot advanced races out there who could wipe you out.

It wasn't fans that killed it, it was poor ratings (which they do discuss). Take the plot introduced in the Pilot - the Temporal Cold War. Even the Production team had no idea where it was going, which is probably why it resolved so unsatisfactorally. While I agree that the last 2 Seasons were better. Even the whole Expanse Arc meandered into random one off episodes (eg. North Star) which considering they were trying to avert the Apocalypse, you'd think they'd avoid and resolved with a trip back to Nazi World (Storm Front). Actually, my favourite Season was 4, because it actually addressed the "building the Federation" aspect (eg. United) rather than telling us how humanity was great and the Vulcans were big ol' meanies for not giving us their technology.

OTOH, I have long argued that it was Voyager that killed Enterprise - the Trek name managed to sustain Voyager through its 7 Seasons, but it burnt off most of the goodwill attached to that name. As a result, when Enterprise's ratings dropped, there wasn't any goodwill left to sustain the series (JMO).

[supposebly]

As a late comer who only watched Voyager and Enterprise on Netflix recently, I would agree. Enterprise is my second-favorite after DS9. Voyager was overall just not very interesting. They could have done so much more with that one but it seems they just wanted to do another TNG, which I found incredibly boring most of the time. If I had been a Trek watcher at the time, I would probably have stopped during Voyager at the latest out of sheer boredom.

And I seriously doubt an admittedly terribly theme song could keep me from watching a show if you enjoy it.

[Unusual Suspect]

I've been listening to the Post Atomic Horror Podcast, and thought I'd rewatch Enterprise with them. I don't know if I can, because Broken Bow almost broke me. I remember not hating the pilot when I first watched it, but, while I find Voyager has improved with age, or at least I've found new ways to appreciate it, Enterprise has declined.

Archer is just a ridiculous choice for a starship captain. His antics with the Vulcans are beyond annoying, and then threatens to punch T'Pol? He's so childish and entitled, from day 1. It's impressive, considering how much I like Scott Bakula, how loathsome I find Archer.

And, between the the sophomoric sexuallity, all the bro-ing out between the guys, putting T'Pol into a catsuit, I think Enterprise is the most sexist of the Treks. TOS  at least has the excuse of being in the 60s. It was progressive, for it's time. Enterprise feels so retrograde.

[Lugal]

On 6/10/2017 at 5:23 AM, John Potts said:

OTOH, I have long argued that it was Voyager that killed Enterprise - the Trek name managed to sustain Voyager through its 7 Seasons, but it burnt off most of the goodwill attached to that name. As a result, when Enterprise's ratings dropped, there wasn't any goodwill left to sustain the series (JMO).

I would agree.  It didn't help that a lot of early Enterprise episodes were derivative (like where they find a ship full of holograms, which unfortunately had Rene Auberjonois as a guest star, which only served to remind the audience of the DS9 episode where Odo discovered a village of hologram people) and threw out a lot of the continuity (like in "Broken Bow" when they showed that the Klingon homeworld was only a few days away at warp 1).

I think that by the time Manny Coto had taken over and the show started to improve, most of the audience had given up on it. 

[Lebanna]

I hate the Firefly theme song too, equally. What was it about scifi shows and terrible themes in the early 2000s?

No. I have come to appreciate ENT, but it wasn't the theme song which made me loathe it at the time. 

Actually, I realized recently that it was because Archer, with his often stupid attitude and nepotistic promotion far above his abilities and daddy issue grievances, was basically the fictional reincarnation of George W Bush. Of course, they didn't know any of that when they were inventing the character, probably back in the late 1990s. It was just a really unfortunate coincidence.

I have got over it. Older and wiser, I can tell myself now that Archer, like most of us, takes the advantages that are handed to him by others who should have shown better judgement, and tries his best to do what he can with them. By the end, he has made something of himself, despite his many failures.

It's a pretty typical human story - we can't expect a regular human to understand he sucks at leadership and give his dream job to someone who would be better. I can appreciate flaws more now. Although if I were a redshirt, I'd still want Picard or Janeway, not Archer, as my captain. 

[ElleMo]

I am watching Enterprise for the first time.  I have been a fan of Star Trek for many years and watched Next Generation, DS9 and Voyager when they first aired (mostly;  probably watched 75-85% of the episodes) but never got Enterprise on its first run.

The best thing about watching now is I cannot be disappointed.  I heard so much bad stuff about it that I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn’t bad as I thought.

I just watched "Stigma" and was very confused by it.  Since when were mind melds not accepted by Vulcans?  Has this ever been mentioned before?  There are a lot of inconsistencies I can overlook, but mind melding is such a big part of who Spock was and I always got the impression that this was a standard Vulcan thing.  My very first Trek memory that I have is of Spock mind melding with a rock. "Pain!"

Overall though, I liked the episode. Pa'nar Syndrome was obviously a throwback to AIDs.  Not as current a reference as it would have been if it were a TNG episode,, but still an issue to discuss even today.  It is also solidified that association of a forced mind meld being akin to rape.  (T’Pol contracted it during Fusion from the creepy Vulcan).  Made a great point about the way people with AIDS had been treated.

I’ve already been pretty spoiled;  difficult not to be when you watch something 12 years after it was canceled.  

Some of the episodes have been good, others bad.  So far, none has been as painful as Spock’s Brain -- my personal favorite godawful episode  and the one I judge all bad episodes by.  But I suspect that the Borg episode I have heard about may surpass that.

   There are several that I have fast forwarded through because I got bored.  Worst one for me so far, is where Archer brings his dog along to meet the Kreetassans and then lets it pee on trees.  Then he spends most of the episode worrying about his dog instead of the mission

Someone mentioned Soong in an episode.  Is that the an ancestor of Dr. Soong who made Data & Lor? 

Edited June 20, 2017 by ElleMo

[legaleagle53]

36 minutes ago, ElleMo said:

Someone mentioned Soong in an episode.  Is that the an ancestor of Dr. Soong who made Data & Lor? 

Yes.  You'll meet him eventually if you stick around long enough.  Suffice it to say that he has a connection to Khan.

[ElleMo]

7 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Yes.  You'll meet him eventually if you stick around long enough.  Suffice it to say that he has a connection to Khan.

WEll, Data's "dad" was Noonian Soong, so I guess that makes sense.  Is it as intriguing  as it sounds?

[legaleagle53]

59 minutes ago, ElleMo said:

WEll, Data's "dad" was Noonian Soong, so I guess that makes sense.  Is it as intriguing  as it sounds?

It is, but I'll let you find out for yourself.  ;-)

[ElleMo]

I just started watching season 2 episode where Archer is jammed by the Klingons.  I agree with a previous poster who mentioned how jarring it is to see them as they words starting with TNG. 

[ElleMo]

.

Edited June 23, 2017 by ElleMo

[Unusual Suspect]

On 20/06/2017 at 0:11 AM, ElleMo said:

I just watched "Stigma" and was very confused by it.  Since when were mind melds not accepted by Vulcans?  Has this ever been mentioned before?  There are a lot of inconsistencies I can overlook, but mind melding is such a big part of who Spock was and I always got the impression that this was a standard Vulcan thing.  My very first Trek memory that I have is of Spock mind melding with a rock. "Pain!"

Overall though, I liked the episode. Pa'nar Syndrome was obviously a throwback to AIDs.  Not as current a reference as it would have been if it were a TNG episode,, but still an issue to discuss even today.  It is also solidified that association of a forced mind meld being akin to rape.  (T’Pol contracted it during Fusion from the creepy Vulcan).  Made a great point about the way people with AIDS had been treated.

 

Enterprise did a horrible job on Vulcans. I hate everything about how they're portrayed. The comments on how repugnant they find humans, the arrogance. Where's the "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations"? They are kinda explained, the production staff wanted a "less evolved Vulcan", but this never sat well with me. As for mind melding, I still have rage blackouts over Archer in season 4: 

Spoiler

mansplaining mindmelding to T'Pol. Yes, mitigating factors, there's a reason in the episode. Don't care. HATE!

 

Fun note on Stigma ... this was an idea pitched by the suits as part of Viacom's AIDs awareness. So, we've gone from TOS talking about social issues and using sci-fi to sneak them past the suits, to the suits asking for more social commentary in Star Trek. *sigh*

[ElleMo]

14 hours ago, Unusual Suspect said:

 

Enterprise did a horrible job on Vulcans. I hate everything about how they're portrayed. The comments on how repugnant they find humans, the arrogance. Where's the "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations"? They are kinda explained, the production staff wanted a "less evolved Vulcan", but this never sat well with me. As for mind melding, I still have rage blackouts over Archer in season 4: 

Yep, I just watched that rage-inducing blackout episode.  I skipped a lot of Season 3 and I am watching season 4 right now.  Sad thing is, a lot of Enterprise would make a great sci fi show,  but there is so much Star Trek canon that they mess up, it is unbelievable.

Less evolved Vulcans make NO SENSE since it is only a short time before Spock. Was this originally supposed to take place hundreds of years before TOS or something? Because Admiral Archer is mentioned in the reboot , so TOS is still within Archer's lifetime.  (Or shortly thereafter since it appears that Kirk  became a captain much earlier in the reboot)  

The Vulcan High Council in this series is not logical. 

  I see why Abrams chose to reboot, though.  It makes a lot more senses to have a major event happen that could explain most issues. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by ElleMo

[readster]

I was not a fan of the Vulcans portrayal in the series. I had no problem how Earth saw Vulcan, but to see such a backwards view of them and even the Romulan Conspiracy they introduced in season 4 made even less sense. Ranks up there with how no one got a promotion in the 7 year gap in the final episode. 

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, ElleMo said:

Was this originally supposed to take place hundreds of years before TOS or something?

It was set in the year 2154 at the start of the series, which puts it at 90 years after the events of "Star Trek: First Contact" (Zefrem Cochrane had a brief scene in the pilot, if I remember correctly) and about 110 years before TOS (the series finale supposedly gives us a glimpse of the founding of the Federation in about 2161, with Archer as the first President of the Federation).

[wknt3]

On 7/5/2017 at 5:34 PM, readster said:

I was not a fan of the Vulcans portrayal in the series. I had no problem how Earth saw Vulcan, but to see such a backwards view of them and even the Romulan Conspiracy they introduced in season 4 made even less sense. Ranks up there with how no one got a promotion in the 7 year gap in the final episode. 

That was probably my single biggest problem with the series. It makes no sense that Vulcan culture would be that different. I would have preferred if they went back to the Kirk/Spock/McCoy triad and had the majority of humans closer to McCoy's views than Kirks. They could have still kept the "training wheels" aspects with the Vulcans being a but wary of humans and not sharing everything they know, and a bit more conflict than the later series without changing things so much that it put off both the casual and hardcore fan. I actually would have liked to see them go back to Britain and America in WW2 with the Vulcans as Britain - more experienced and more organized and Earth as the USA - brash, but having more population and more resources. There would be tensions as the the junior partner surpassed their mentor, and some on both sides with bigoted views of the other, but overall both sides (especially the leadership) would realize it was a mutually beneficial relationship even as they pursued their own agendas. And it would all build to them realizing that they were stronger together and needed to cooperate completely and put aside petty differences.