S33.E13: I'm Going For A Million Bucks / S33.E14: Reunion

[waving feather]

I actually think if it came down to Bret, Hannah and Ken, Hannah would not be shut out but Bret would still win over her. Based on the general impression I had after the post game interviews, Bret had a good social game and was friendly with everyone - Millenials and Gen Xers on the jury. Bret even said if he's in the final 3 without Jay or Adam or David, he would get the Millenials' vote. And I believe him. Chris and Sunday are likely to vote for him as well (with the final 3 of Ken and Hannah and Bret).

I don't think Hannah has a chance to win against any iteration of F3 out of the F6. She just didn't play a good enough social game. She did fine with the strategizing. Strategy only helps you to get to final tribal (which is a very good accomplishment) but to win, social game has to be good because people need to like you.

Edited December 27, 2016 by waving feather

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, MissEwa said:

I don't think Hannah was the best player ever. She's one of my favourites, from a personality POV, but she's not a mastermind. IMO her game, and her motivations, were solid, but ultimately not right for the jury she was facing. It happens. I just wish it hadn't been a wash (and yes, I get why it was...)

This.

4 hours ago, waving feather said:

I don't think Hannah has a chance to win against any iteration of F3 out of the F6. She just didn't play a good enough social game. She did fine with the strategizing. Strategy only helps you to get to final tribal (which is a very good accomplishment) but to win, social game has to be good because people need to like you.

Hannah seems to thinks she was playing the social game, but boy did she misread the people on the jury. She was playing up her 'awkward girl' persona, which was precisely what screwed her over in the end because no one believed she was actually doing anything smart. She thought she needed to appear non-threatening in order to get by (which is probably true), but in playing that way there's always the risk that you won't be able to suddenly get people to see all the moves you made. She also badly misread how the jury saw Adam. I think she must have seen Adam as someone who was disliked/disrespected more than she was.

[waving feather]

50 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

She also badly misread how the jury saw Adam. I think she must have seen Adam as someone who was disliked/disrespected more than she was.

Honestly, I can't blame her because I too thought no one respected Adam until I watch those jury speak videos and everyone seems to like him even before the FTC. But I did notice for the last few tribals, Adam always made a point to play up to the jury with his reactions and eye contact (like when Hannah voted for Bret instead of David, Adam made a "what is she thinking?!" face for the jury. I didn't think he played a good game in the game itself, but his jury management is well done. Hindsight is 20/20 but I'm sure Hannah wished she had brought Sunday to the FTC. She may have a chance against Sunday and Ken, lol.

[kikaha]

17 hours ago, MissEwa said:

Maybe. Or maybe Ken decided he can't trust her and decides to boot her, with help from Bret (who dislikes her but also didn't think Adam was a massive threat) and possibly Adam (who would just be glad it wasn't him) - that was her logic, anyway. 
 

It was her only chance to win.  She had to dump the big threats, and then either convince Ken to keep her or win the FIC.  By booting Bret, she cemented the jury's already-low opinion of her as a game player, and guaranteed she would lose.  Did you see the jaws drop on the jury faces when the three votes went against Bret?  

For all those who think she shouldn't have gotten shut out, my question is "why?"  Whose vote 'should' Hannah have gotten, and why? 

[Superpole2000]

I think this was David's season, but of course so often the best player gets bounced right before the end. In the absence of David, I would have selected Hannah. Ken seemed a bit too antisocial for my liking.

Adam's personal cancer tragedy is genuinely sad, but it really took over the show, both the finale and the reunion. I guess it had to be that way, but I still didn't enjoy it.

I wonder if the vote sweep was a result of the cancer talk or if that's just what happens when Ponderosa exists and the castoffs can deliberate among themselves.

[SlackerInc]

On 12/23/2016 at 10:15 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

But jury management is the one strategy that matters.  

But there's only so far that can take you.  You don't get an infinite quantity of potential jurors to select from, and they are not pure blank slates, malleable clay you can manipulate to be your pawns (well, unless you're Boston Rob, LOL).  I have watched 32 seasons of Survivor from gun to tape, and I would estimate that at least 28 of them would be impossible for me to win.  Even if I could substitute myself for any single player and then magically choose the boot order right up to the finals, whatever jury I'd choose in 90% of the cases would vote against me.  Even if I had unlimited tries at it a la Groundhog Day or Edge of Tomorrow, I would lose again and again and again because most of those people just would not vote for me at the end.  And I think that's true for a lot of the players I have a soft spot for, whether it's Hannah this year or in recent seasons with Francesca and Shirin.

On 12/23/2016 at 2:26 PM, Winston9-DT3 said:

By 'deserve votes' I mean I don't think anyone deserves consolation votes or something.  If all the jurors felt she was even 1% less worthy than Adam, then a shut-out is the result.

This part, I do agree with and have said so upthread.  A lot of people seem to think that if Adam was only slightly more deserving of the win than Hannah, then he should only win 6-4 or whatever, or at least not 10-0.  But if he is consistently seen by all the jurors as slightly better, then he should win unanimously.

[Jextella]

11 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

I think this was David's season, but of course so often the best player gets bounced right before the end. In the absence of David, I would have selected Hannah. Ken seemed a bit too antisocial for my liking.

Adam's personal cancer tragedy is genuinely sad, but it really took over the show, both the finale and the reunion. I guess it had to be that way, but I still didn't enjoy it.

I wonder if the vote sweep was a result of the cancer talk or if that's just what happens when Ponderosa exists and the castoffs can deliberate among themselves.

I sort of agree about Adam, but I agree with Adam more.  TV or no TV, it was his reality.  I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did not saying anything.  In watching the "jury videos" on the CBS website, I doubt his story swayed any of the jurors - or if so, maybe only one or two.  They were pretty well set on voting for Adam near as I could tell.  Still, I wish he'd gone the distance and not told anyone until after votes were cast.  Just so there was no question among players and viewers, but mostly so there was no question for Adam.  

Edited December 28, 2016 by Jextella
grammar

[Nashville]

On 12/27/2016 at 10:07 AM, waving feather said:

Honestly, I can't blame her because I too thought no one respected Adam until I watch those jury speak videos and everyone seems to like him even before the FTC.

Personally, I thought Adam was annoying as hell.  In retrospect, however, I realize this was due in large part to the "I'm an authority on Survivor" air Adam projected strongly in his THs - which none of the Jurors saw.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Nashville

[ljenkins782]

Quote

And FWIW, I think voting out Sunday instead of going with Adam's plan to split the vote between David and Jay was the right move for Hannah and maybe for Adam as well. If they had done what Adam wanted, then David would have gone home because Jay played his idol. Hannah and Adam would have gone from being in the majority alliance to being tied in numbers with the opposing alliance, and I don't think Bret would have flipped so easily on Jay if Sunday were still there. (And this is just rank speculation on my part, but since it was David who beat Jay (who'd been leading) at the next IC, it's not hard to imagine that with David gone, Jay would have won that IC and voted out Adam. Once that happens, we're probably looking at an F3 of Jay and his two goats Bret and Sunday. If Jay doesn't win that IC, then there's likely a 3-3 Adam/Jay tie that goes to rocks and then Hannah has a 1 in 4 chance of going home.)

Jay said in his exit interviews that he wanted to take Adam and David to F3. Granted, he never got the chance to make that decision so maybe the prospect of an easy victory would have changed his mind, but based on what we saw of him...I kinda believe that he would have. Partially because I think he had the confidence to feel like he could have beaten anyone and partially because he seems like he would genuinely enjoy "battling" for the win. 

Quote

It occurred to me that Survivor is a lot like the work world.  You can do your job to absolute perfection but if no one likes you or knows the good work you do, it really doesn't matter.  Both are HUGE in getting ahead in a job and the same is true for this game. 

Absolutely true. Also similar is the fact that if you can get one key, well-liked, well-positioned person to have your back, that will elevate you faster than anything else. Adam getting Jay on his side means Jay's probably at Ponderosa talking him up and since Adam was up against 2 others who didn't have that kind of support (David liked Ken as a person, but didn't even vote for him, so clearly he wasn't pushing Ken's agenda), the jurors go into FTC predisposed to hear Adam's case louder and clearer. 

Quote

Hannah seems to thinks she was playing the social game, but boy did she misread the people on the jury. She was playing up her 'awkward girl' persona, which was precisely what screwed her over in the end because no one believed she was actually doing anything smart. She thought she needed to appear non-threatening in order to get by (which is probably true), but in playing that way there's always the risk that you won't be able to suddenly get people to see all the moves you made. She also badly misread how the jury saw Adam. I think she must have seen Adam as someone who was disliked/disrespected more than she was.

Yeah, I think this goes back to the point above about it not mattering what you actually did, but about what the jury thinks/believes you did. I'm not sure Hannah had a chance either way. If she'd started acting like a strategic thinker, she was an easy target (not likely to win immunities and few very solid allies), but by playing it the way she did, no one saw or respected her game. 

At least with this outcome, she gets to split a decent chunk of change with Ken as co-2nd placers. For a 20-something barista, $80,000 or whatever it is, is not a bad payday for a month's "work." 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

Personally, I thought Adam was annoying as hell.  In retrospect, however, I realize this was due in large part to the "I'm an authority on Survivor" air Adam projected strongly in his THs - which none of the Jurors saw.

I love how we all react differently to so many cast members.  Adam never bothered me but Michaela did from day one.  Will never bothered me but Ken did.  Even on rewatches, I sometimes find a player who bothered me in the past no longer does or vice versa.  

[Nashville]

17 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I love how we all react differently to so many cast members.  Adam never bothered me but Michaela did from day one.

Oh, don't get me wrong; Michaela was annoying as hell, too.  ;>

[LadyArcadia]

On 12/15/2016 at 0:29 AM, GaT said:

The good, Jay & the fake idol, that was just awesome. The bad, Adam pulling the mom & her cancer story at the last minute to get the vote. That's total crap IMO.

I saw it differently. I appeared to me like he had no intention of telling anyone.  He only told Jay in a moment of vulnerability and needing to share. He said nothing at the family visit.  He pulled his brother aside privately.  He never said a word to anyone. And if there was ever a time to exploit it, that would have been the time. But he was willing to lose the visit to not say anything.

At the final tribal council he even said to Jay, "You know why" without further explanation. He actively tried not to say something about it.  When he finally did say something I felt it was because he thought he had to, to explain the "you know why" comment.  It was his truth.  Usually when a contestant spews their sob stories I get irritated because they're trying to get sympathy.  I didn't see that here.

[Rachel RSL]

Which would all be much easier to believe if he hadn't admitted that he also told Ken as a purely strategic move.

[Special K]

2 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Which would all be much easier to believe if he hadn't admitted that he also told Ken as a purely strategic move.

Yes, he admitted that he told Ken, trading on Ken's empathy regarding "playing for family" to convince Ken to vote out David.

[LadyArcadia]

2 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

Which would all be much easier to believe if he hadn't admitted that he also told Ken as a purely strategic move.

That shows how much I paid attention. I missed that completely.  He said that on the show?

[Rachel RSL]

5 hours ago, LadyArcadia said:

That shows how much I paid attention. I missed that completely.  He said that on the show?

No, it was in one of the interviews he did after he won. I'd link you to it but I have no clue what interview it was. Maybe someone else remembers?

[kikaha]

18 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

Which would all be much easier to believe if he hadn't admitted that he also told Ken as a purely strategic move.

So Adam DID influence Ken's decision, or at least played a role in it.  Giving a bit of support to his complaint, after the show, that the edit under-sold his full game.

[peachmangosteen]

I don't think it really did influence Ken's decision, though there's no way for us to ever truly know, but it does prove that Adam at least tried to influence Ken. But then again so did Hannah, so another wash between them imo.

[fishcakes]

In any case, I don't know that I'd call that good strategy. Adam knows that one of Ken's arguments to the jury is going to be, "I'm doing this for my daughter," so why does he think Ken would want to keep him if one of his potential arguments is, "I'm doing this to give my terminally ill mom some happiness in her final days"? According to Ken, no one influenced him to vote out David; he knew without being told that it was the right move. Maybe that's true and maybe it's not, but if he was swayed by anything, then I'm more inclined to think it was by Hannah saying, "David can beat you," rather than by Adam saying, "BTW, I have a story that will make me sympathetic to the jury."

[peachmangosteen]

LMAO good point @fishcakes!

But Ken is an emotional guy and Adam seemed to believe that Ken was debating whether or not to vote out David because of his emotional connection to him (which may not be true, but does make sense based on what we saw from Ken), so I can see why Adam would think that telling Ken about his mom might influence Ken's decision. But again, like I've said so many times before, is a pretty ruthless strategic play that I find at least slightly gross.

[Guest]

I can also see it being good strategy if Adam knew that Ken didn't really understand the game, which I expect Adam did know.  A rational player would want to get Adam out asap with the info about his mother.  But Ken might just be playing the irrational game where he wants to go to the end with someone with a more deserving, family-oriented story than David.  In which case, good for Adam for selectively using the mom info.  

I don't find it any more gross than Jeremy mentioning Val's pregnancy at FTC.  If Adam had made it up, yeah, that'd be too disgusting for me.  Or if he'd made it his entire FTC argument, a la Jaclyn and her infertility.  

I think everyone mines what they have to make connections out there.  Bret used being gay to strengthen his friendship with Zeke, Zeke used his ties to whatever sports team to strengthen his ties with Chris, etc.  

Edited January 5, 2017 by Guest

[peachmangosteen]

10 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't find it any more gross than Jeremy mentioning Val's pregnancy at FTC.  

I hated that, too. And honestly I think it was much more annoying than Adam using his mom and it was completely unnecessary. Super unpopular opinion alert, but damn, I could not stand Jeremy.

10 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Or if he'd made it his entire FTC argument, a la Jaclyn and her infertility.  

Honestly Adam bringing up his mom at FTC reminds me more of this than the Jeremy thing. I think they were both doing that because they were afraid they weren't going to win without that emotional gut punch, while Jeremy obviously knew he'd win and told the Val story just to make himself look even better. With Adam and Jaclyn it just seemed more desperate, while with Jeremy is just seemed like arrogance. I still find Adam using his mom for strategy more distasteful though. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[fishcakes]

2 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

But again, like I've said so many times before, is a pretty ruthless strategic play that I find at least slightly gross.

You know, initially I was giving Adam the benefit of the doubt regarding whether he used his mom's illness as a strategy, but the more I hear about it post-game, the more inclined I am to think he's crafting the story in a way to make it seem more tragic and thus himself more sympathetic. He gave me pause at the reunion when he said something like, "from a distance, I can see what a beautiful story this is, but it's my life!" because it seemed like such a calculated thing to say. But him sobbing and then the camera cutting to his dad and brother in the audience weeping made me feel like an ass for thinking even that. And now it seems that while he often talked about how his mom was also a superfan, that might not be exactly true; I read or saw the link in one of the threads here and am too lazy to look for it, but evidently, she only agreed to audition for BvW with him because no one else in the family wanted to. It's not like watching Survivor was this mother-son bond they shared and that by playing he was living out her dream as well as his own, but that's a more sympathetic story than the one where a son who goes off for two months to play a game with his terminally ill mom's blessing. And I'm not even criticizing the latter; if his mom was okay with him going, then it's not anyone else's place to second-guess their decisions. I just wish that Adam and/or the show itself had not taken what was already a sad story and tried to turn it into an inspiring Hallmark Hall of Fame presentation.

Jeremy didn't bother me though because it seems so unlikely to me that his wife having a baby is something that could sway a jury. Although maybe I think that because it wouldn't influence me. I'd be like, "oh, congratulations! But now let's talk about your game." And Jaclyn's pitch was just too ham-handed and ridiculous to be offensive: "I deserve to win because it would inspire other women like me who also have incomplete reproductive systems even though it sounds really dumb when I say that out loud."

[LadyArcadia]

10 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

You know, initially I was giving Adam the benefit of the doubt regarding whether he used his mom's illness as a strategy, but the more I hear about it post-game, the more inclined I am to think he's crafting the story in a way to make it seem more tragic and thus himself more sympathetic. He gave me pause at the reunion when he said something like, "from a distance, I can see what a beautiful story this is, but it's my life!" because it seemed like such a calculated thing to say. But him sobbing and then the camera cutting to his dad and brother in the audience weeping made me feel like an ass for thinking even that. And now it seems that while he often talked about how his mom was also a superfan, that might not be exactly true; I read or saw the link in one of the threads here and am too lazy to look for it, but evidently, she only agreed to audition for BvW with him because no one else in the family wanted to. It's not like watching Survivor was this mother-son bond they shared and that by playing he was living out her dream as well as his own, but that's a more sympathetic story than the one where a son who goes off for two months to play a game with his terminally ill mom's blessing. And I'm not even criticizing the latter; if his mom was okay with him going, then it's not anyone else's place to second-guess their decisions. I just wish that Adam and/or the show itself had not taken what was already a sad story and tried to turn it into an inspiring Hallmark Hall of Fame presentation.

Jeremy didn't bother me though because it seems so unlikely to me that his wife having a baby is something that could sway a jury. Although maybe I think that because it wouldn't influence me. I'd be like, "oh, congratulations! But now let's talk about your game." And Jaclyn's pitch was just too ham-handed and ridiculous to be offensive: "I deserve to win because it would inspire other women like me who also have incomplete reproductive systems even though it sounds really dumb when I say that out loud."

Bolded to reference what I'm responding to.  Perhaps I'm naive, but I completely understood that.  I've been through some tragic times and have said similar comments. When my dad passed away I was in a complete fog; almost looking at life from the outside, but I was actually living it.  I think he was just expressing that he's more than a character on TV. That from a story perspective it's crazy, but it is actually his life.  I got it.  I don't know... I still see his reactions as realistic and not strategic.

ETA: And for some reason he reminded me of Joey Mcintyre from New Kids on the Block. lol

Edited January 5, 2017 by LadyArcadia

[Rachel RSL]

1 minute ago, LadyArcadia said:

 I think he was just expressing that he's more than a character on TV.

What I took out of that comment, particularly the "beautiful story" part, was Adam yet again referring to the editing. He could see why they chose to focus on that because it created a moving storyline. Not that there's anything wrong or offensive about that comment, it just served to remind me that Super Fan Adam has a bit of an obsession when it comes to how he was edited.

[Guest]

I kind of doubt Jeremy's or Adam's news helped much more than Jaclyn's did.  Players just don't award the win based on outside life circumstances or else why even play.  Plus they don't even know if the stories are true.  And Adam's story is more poignant in hindsight because of his mother's death.  At the time of FTC, the jurors just had his (probably very believable) word that she'd had a bad diagnosis.  A lot of people get cancer diagnoses and survive and virtually all of us adults lose our parents.  And have kids (Ken).  And even 3rd kids (Jeremy).  

I thought Jaclyn's was the weakest argument because it was about her only resume point but I guess from a philosophical standpoint, her's was slightly more unique and pitiable, especially with Jon out there so everyone knew the happy couple.  I think she claimed she should win because it would cost them so much more than others to have a child.  

But I think that 'what I'm going to do with the money' bit also turns off jurors.  We rarely hear that stuff anymore.  Though Ken went there somewhat, didn't he?  Or was that only in interviews afterward, not to the jury?  Maybe the show prompts them not to bother because it's bad TV and it doesn't sway jurors.  

[Eolivet]

2 hours ago, fishcakes said:

And now it seems that while he often talked about how his mom was also a superfan, that might not be exactly true; I read or saw the link in one of the threads here and am too lazy to look for it, but evidently, she only agreed to audition for BvW with him because no one else in the family wanted to.

Hi, that's me (I know it looks like I said I was going to stay out of this thread, but that's just how I was edited! ;)

To be fair to Adam, he said he got the call for Blood vs Water, then turned to his family and was like "Who wants to audition with me?" His mom and his brother said they would -- they made two tapes, and CBS liked the mom tape better. And while I think the family did watch Survivor together, this was clearly Adam's dream, and Adam's alone.

2 hours ago, fishcakes said:

I just wish that Adam and/or the show itself had not taken what was already a sad story and tried to turn it into an inspiring Hallmark Hall of Fame presentation.

That's it, exactly, I think. And after listening to both of Adam's podcasts (glutton for punishment am I!), I can safely say that I think he planned to just play Survivor as a Survivor player and use the confessionals as his therapy sessions/emotional outlets, independent of the game. But I do side-eye him just a bit, because how does a super-duper fan not know that the show is going to see those confessionals as TV gold, and make them a part of his story on the show?

3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I can also see it being good strategy if Adam knew that Ken didn't really understand the game, which I expect Adam did know.  A rational player would want to get Adam out asap with the info about his mother.  But Ken might just be playing the irrational game where he wants to go to the end with someone with a more deserving, family-oriented story than David

Bingo. He said he told Ken because Ken wanted to go to the end with "good people," and he had to show (because apparently he and Ken were not very close at all, not even a little bit) that he, too, was a good person -- same as David was.

Here's the thing, after the two podcasts -- I have a yinyang relationship with Adam, where I do like him, but I also can't stand him sometimes. But the one thing I genuinely want to ask, that no interviewer has asked, and that I think is an incredibly valid question:

If final tribal council was as much of a blowout as you said it was, because you had successfully made these great relationships that we didn't see, and you had a better read on the jury than either of the other two, and you knew going out that there was no way that this jury -- who you had eating out of the palm of your hand -- was going to vote for either Hannah or Ken, because they didn't respect either of them...

...why mention your mother's situation at all?

Edited January 5, 2017 by Eolivet

[Guest]

My guess is because 'why not' and 'it's good tv' and maybe a little 'I'd been holding it in so long, I finally felt secure enough with my win to let it out.' 

I think he may even have been encouraged to use it in his last juror reply, and the juror prompted to ask something that opened that door.  Though I don't even remember who was last and what they asked.  

[Eolivet]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think he may even have been encouraged to use it in his last juror reply, and the juror prompted to ask something that opened that door.

This I would buy. That the show engineered the timing to make good TV, and Adam -- because of the reasons you said -- went along with it. I could get really conspiracy-like, and say that where Adam clearly became the most emotional and was basically begging to say it (as other posters have said) is during Jay's question. But because Jay wasn't the final juror, maybe he got the old cut-sign from the director -- which explains why Jay just kind of...shut off, and sat down. They wanted to save it for the final juror (David), and his completely spoon-fed question about "What obstacles did you have to overcome to get here?"

(Which...I actually would've preferred if Adam had to say it at all, he shared it during Jay's question, where it made a modicum of sense: "Why didn't you use me to help get David out?" "Because I told you why I had to get you out...and now I can tell everyone else." But likely, CBS wanted their moment, and Adam went along with it.)

Hey, @Winston9-DT3 -- I think we had different opinions about Derrick on Big Brother, but I have to say -- as much as I still can't stand the guy personally -- this experience has made me respect him just a little bit more. Being an undercover cop is totally not the same as having a mom with a terminal illness, but credit to Derrick: he shared his secret with no one, and it made for a better reveal after he won.

There's the next "evolution" of Survivor: I have a painful personal secret, and I tell no one about it!

[Guest]

I think the gold standard for me in tactful secret keeping was David Cook on American Idol, who won while his brother battled brain cancer and never brought it into the show.  Though at the end I think the show itself flew the brother out there to see the finale or something, so even casual viewers found out.  

But nowadays you can't even get on a singing show without a major back story, the more tragic the better.  I think contestants probably lead with their most horrible life experience.  "I can sing AND my father committed suicide!  Pick me!  Pick me!"  

[KimberStormer]

Really, we should all be thanking Jonny Fairplay with all our hearts, for instilling that bit of doubt in everyone's head about sad stories on Survivor.  The effect is perhaps fading, but for a long time people would respond to tales of family woe with "yeah, we've heard that dead grandmother bit before".  Perhaps we need some new Fairplay-esque self-aware villain to give a booster shot to the Queen For A Day immunization he provided.

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, fishcakes said:

Jeremy didn't bother me though because it seems so unlikely to me that his wife having a baby is something that could sway a jury. 

I think that's precisely why it annoyed me so much. Also because I just really hated Jeremy!

3 hours ago, Eolivet said:

Here's the thing, after the two podcasts -- I have a yinyang relationship with Adam, where I do like him, but I also can't stand him sometimes.

That's how I felt about him all season. Post show I mostly just hate him though.

Edited January 5, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[waving feather]

51 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

That's how I felt about him all season. Post show I mostly just hate him though.

That's where I am well. He started out the season annoying, then became likable towards the end. Now it's back to hate (or rather I find him obnoxious). Lol, now I know why Jay had a love-hate relationship with him.

[Nashville]

15 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Super unpopular opinion alert, but damn, I could not stand Jeremy.

Nice to know I'm not alone.

[Special K]

On 1/5/2017 at 5:41 PM, peachmangosteen said:

That's how I felt about him all season. Post show I mostly just hate him though.

I basically feel the say way, but in retrospect, there was something about the family visit episode ("my episode" - per Adam) that I picked up at the time, but have thought more about.  Adam's brother, who was home on the front lines of dealing with the difficulties and trauma of caring for a dying parent, spent the whole time comforting (and protecting) a hysterical Adam.  While I know sometimes it's harder NOT to be there, it just struck me that Adam is very immature and is probably the one babied by his family.  I mean, he's having this great adventure, while the rest of his family is dealing with the hard decisions, etc., and he expects to be the one comforted.  I thought his brother was very tender, careful, and generous with Adam, and I actually thought that HE was the hero of that episode.

[Eolivet]

 I do cut Adam a bit of slack on the family visit episode, because he didn't find out "Mom's still sick, it's status quo," this is "We've stopped all treatments, and it's just supportive care now." Which I also don't even think he fully processed, because if he's still telling Jay four days later, "She wants to watch me get to the end," he's certainly not actually realized that someone with stage IV cancer who's stopped all treatments, likely isn't going to live six more months to see Survivor air on television.

I guess I have to believe Adam is a decent person, who was caught up in a moment, and was either in major denial or had no idea about how sick his mom actually was. Even though he knew it was stage IV, even though he knew she'd be through three treatments already, I simply cannot believe that it entered his mind that she'd be dead in six weeks when he left for the show. I think if he knew that, he would've given more consideration to going in a different year (second podcast said that the casting director told him come back anytime -- we want to see you play, so it's not like it was now or never).

The way he talked about "wanting to give his family something to look forward to," I have to believe he assumed his time away would be in the context of months of debilitating illness, not weeks of imminent death. Terminal cancer is terminal cancer, but I have to think her prognosis was months, not weeks, when the decision to do Survivor was made.

I don't know -- even after two self-serving podcasts, I can't bring myself to hate Adam. He traded what (I believe) he thought was a portion of his mom's final months for a million dollars, and it turned out to be the last six weeks of her life. And he has to live with that forever. I think if I had to carry that around, I'd complain about my edit, too.

[Hera]

I haven't listened to the podcasts, but I don't judge Adam or any other player who goes onto Survivor with a terminally ill relative at home—the exception would parents with terminally ill kids (or people who they are otherwise responsible for), but I don't think we've ever seen that. The amount of time patients are told they have left to live is based on averages (which are necessarily a couple of years out of date), so they could end up living much longer or much shorter than whatever amount the doctor tells them.

Also, every family is different. I don't think my own parents would particularly want my sister and me to spend weeks on end watching them succumb to a terminal illness, and certainly I would never want to feel like my loved ones were putting their own lives on hold because they were waiting for mine to end. But in some families, it's not even a question or a discussion—of course you'll all be there for the person with the disease. I can see how a family like mine could look really cold and selfish to people from the other type of family, but it's really just a different (not better, not worse) set of expectations and way of interacting. For us, being by the person's side wouldn't necessarily be the kindest thing to do.

As for the family episode, people always get emotional during that. The combination of hunger, exhaustion, and constant scheming means that everyone's emotions are heightened, thus the waterworks when players get to see their loved ones. I agree with @Eolivet that Adam probably didn't fully process what it meant that his mother had stopped treatments, even if he did clock (and cry about) the fact that things at home were different from how he had been imagining them. I think that regardless of what the Klein family dynamics normally are, it's perfectly natural that Adam's brother would have to comfort him when they saw each other—he was better fed and presumably better rested than Adam, but more importantly, he had had more time to come to terms with what was going on at home. I don't doubt that it was stressful for him as well, but he got to see the events unfold and could adjust to each change as it occurred; Adam was getting the story then and there (minus what was in the letter from home from the previous week...whose ramifications I also don't think he had fully appreciated), and having to process everything at once.