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Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

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29 minutes ago, MichaelaRae said:

Poor Joy and Austin. That's just so awful. Can't imagine their grief. I fear that probably the ultrasound was being filmed because who else takes that photo? (I can't imagine it being something you ASKED to have done in the spur of the moment by someone there with a camera phone but...hell, I don't get most of this curated Instagram life thing that is so much of the world today, so maybe you do now?)

There’s a non profit called Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep where they have volunteer photographers come to take photos when there is a stillbirth or when they know they baby will not survive. It’s been around for a while. I had a former coworker who’s sister had a textbook pregnancy and delivery, but the baby had a previously undetected heart defect and passed and they had this service come and take what were the most heartbreaking but beautiful photos and this was like 9 years ago. 

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4 minutes ago, Trillium said:

There’s a non profit called Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep where they have volunteer photographers come to take photos when there is a stillbirth or when they know they baby will not survive. It’s been around for a while. I had a former coworker who’s sister had a textbook pregnancy and delivery, but the baby had a previously undetected heart defect and passed and they had this service come and take what were the most heartbreaking but beautiful photos and this was like 9 years ago. 

They're still around, they come to hospitals where I practice.  They take lovely photos of the baby, the family, anything the parents want and then put together a beautiful photo album as a keepsake.  Most of them are professional photographers and they often are taking the pictures with tears streaming down their cheeks.

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I don't think any of the J kids are so close that they know how to and want to comfort each other like they should. 

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Hmmm, Lauren's tweet is gone. Did she get it? Will it stick? Or did she delete it because someone told her too?

Both Erin B and Whitney B posted their condolences without a mention of their losses. Maybe the responses to Lauren's post and the examples of others will wake her up.

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I am very sorry for Joy. She’s suffering on a physical, emotional and mental level. I hope Austin is a support for her and she doesn’t blame herself for this. Having someone in her corner will mean all the difference for her emotionally.

Lauren really needs to STFU, and not make everything about her. I disagree with the notion that Jinger and Jess’s should stop posting happy photos on their social media during this time- I think they can post what they like on their own social media. If tomorrow Joy goes back to posting “as normal” I wouldn’t think any less of her for it. She might just want to grieve privately and capture the good memories. 

Again I’m sorry for Joy. 

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I don't feel or know there's anything Joy and Austin could have differently. I don't blame them at all and I hope they don't blame themselves.

I also worry that they will blame themselves, because of the cult they grew up in. Gothard preached that good things will happen to his followers if they obey their rules/lifestyle. Bad things are supposed to only happen if people aren't "Godly" enough.  I watched the Youth Conference for Christ video (which you can see on youtube) featuring JB and Michelle and David and Priscilla Waller. They told story after story about how good things happen to their "Godly" friends and family and bad things happened to people who weren't following God. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Joy and Austin doubled down on their beliefs after having such a negative experience. My thoughts and sympathy are with them. 

As for Lauren, what seems most insensitive about her post is that she still pregnant. 

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1 hour ago, mom2two said:

I just hope that they don't blame this as something sinful that Joy or Austin did, just like they blamed Anna when her scumbag husband cheated.   I had a friend lose a baby at 18 weeks, and it is very hard and emotional. 

Of course they will -- in some passive-aggressive, Jesus-y way. They have to because it's part of their fundamental belief system. "Losing your baby will give you more time to pray . . . " (because you obviously didn't pray enough). Or "Now there will be even more room in your heart for Jesus" (because she was secretly allowing things other than Jesus into her heart).

Whatever it is, it will be awful and heartless, and for the millionth time, I'm very grateful to not be a part of that "family."

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Speaking of doubling down, Joy has already been recognized as the most "conservative." It will be interesting to see how this loss affects them in the long run. 

FWIW, Jill got a generic post up this morning.

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2 hours ago, irisheyes said:

Poor Joy.  These next few months are going to be very tough. Thankfully, she has Gideon to keep her busy, and it looks like Austin has really grown to be a good husband. She’s gonna need a lot of support from his family, cause she’s certainly not getting it from hers. 

I hope she and Austin are able to get some counseling, though I know it probably won't happen.

She's had 2 really dramatic heartbreaks in less than a month--losing her grandmother and losing the baby. Either one would be overwhelming on their own. Can't even imagine how upsetting both would be together.

I'm glad she and Austin seem to be doing well together--in the past few months, they seem a lot happier and more comfortable with each other. I hope they're able to at least provide each other with quality emotional support since the Duggars seem incapable of doing so. 

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How incredibly sad. I’m very sorry for Joy. I can’t imagine what she’s going through right now.  I don’t agree with much this family does or supports but it’s still a terrible situation to lose a much wanted child. 

All that being said... when you make a career of reproducing, I would imagine you need to try to prepare yourself mentally for a few losses. It would be very unusual to reach offspring in numbers of teens & twenties without miscarriage, stillbirth, or the possibility of some serious health conditions for mother or baby. Especially in this case where the family tradition is to push the spacing of births together as close as humanly possible. They also give very little to no recovery time for the mother. An unwanted outcome is bound to happen when you push your body to the limit. 

Joy is barely an adult herself... I hope they give her enough time to recover both physically & mentally. 

Lauren is nauseating... 

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4 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I truly believe the Duggars have ZERO idea of how to actually support other people -- and zero impulse to do so. Their parents have no empathy for anyone -- and they've deliberately adopted a cult that preaches the glories of no empathy. They don't give a shit about their children and they raised the kids to be nothing but rivals and snitches for each other, if you ask me.

Living in a house of spies doesn't foster bonding. And i think we see that lack of empathy constantly among the Duggarlings. Their God is an angry, jealous spiteful God and they enjoy being just like him, as far as I can see. 

Couldn't agree more. Adding to that, these girls have been brought up to believe that having babies is the only reason for their existence, the only true measure of a woman's worth. It's become an Olympic event: who can get pregnant the fastest after the wedding, who gives birth at home as opposed to a hospital, who has the longest labor, who can come the closest to cheating death, who can pop out the most number of babies, who will give birth to those elusive twins. The competition is brutal and I doubt if there's any sportsmanship involved.

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35 minutes ago, Temperance said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Joy and Austin doubled down on their beliefs after having such a negative experience. My thoughts and sympathy are with them. 

This is what concerns me.  Her parents were relatively normal in their beliefs and reproductive goals until they lost J’Caleb.  That miscarriage sent their lives into the tailspin that it is today and I think Michelle was probably about as far along as little miss Lauren.  Joy and Austin have both rebelled in the past and come back to their faith stronger.  While I’m happy that their faith can be a comfort to them, I really hope that they don’t let this make them turn into bigger zealots. 

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It's tremendously sad for Joy and Austin. It would be sad for anyone but, given their beliefs, I would imagine that they feel tremendously guilty on top of the many other emotions they're dealing with right now.

That having been said, I do hope that this slows their roll in the baby department -- it probably won't, but there's always hope. Remember that Joy and Austin are the only two who have explicitly stated that they see nothing wrong with the Pearl "training" methods. What we see are cute babies and toddlers, we don't see inside the daily lives of these kids with the religious brow-beating and the harsh physical "discipline."

I have much more compassion for these theoretical kids than I do their parents, and I hope that none of them will come close to recreating the horror show of the Duggar parents.

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5 minutes ago, NotthebadVictoria said:

It appears Joy and Austin’s Instagram account is gone. 

No, it’s still there.

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5 minutes ago, NotthebadVictoria said:

It appears Joy and Austin’s Instagram account is gone. 

I can still access it. 

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4 minutes ago, NotthebadVictoria said:

It appears Joy and Austin’s Instagram account is gone. 

I just checked a second ago and it's still there. Did you possibly get blocked?

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1 minute ago, Lunera said:

I just checked a second ago and it's still there. Did you possibly get blocked?

No idea how, I’ve never commented or liked a post of theirs but I can access it from my business page so maybe so 🤷🏻‍♀️. I don’t even know how that would have happened. 

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Well, clearly Joy and Austin are okay with the photo as they posted it - I didn't mean to imply they weren't - I just was assuming that because the photo WAS taken at what is very obviously an intimate moment (and therefore not one where you're likely to hand a phone to someone in the room and be like "get a shot of this"), that must have meant the crew was there filming. But I wasn't aware of that type of photography being available and if that's something they wanted and arranged for, I think that's lovely for them.

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3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Hmmm, Lauren's tweet is gone. Did she get it? Will it stick? Or did she delete it because someone told her too?

Both Erin B and Whitney B posted their condolences without a mention of their losses. Maybe the responses to Lauren's post and the examples of others will wake her up.

I certainly hope she gets it, but somehow I doubt she will. I wonder if Joe intervened? We know he and Joy are close and he and Kendra seem to be capable of empathy. I think it’s unlikely that Lauren would have removed the post unless someone smacked her upside the head with a clue-by-four.

I really do feel terrible for Joy and Austin. I hope they find some comfort and peace.

Edited by mynextmistake
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I wish Austin would take his hat off. Poor Joy must get hit by the hat daily.

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Pickle has a FB post with a copy of Joy and Austin’s previous ultrasound video they had posted on Instagram.  She is asking if anybody with medical credentials can see any abnormalities in the images.  Just when I think Pickles can’t stoop any lower or be any meaner, she does this.  Pretty despicable.

Since both Joy and Austin have questioned their beliefs before, I wonder if this will bring back all those questions again, and perhaps spur them to go in a different direction.  Especially if they get any kind of implications from family or others that their sins caused this tragedy.  I also wonder if Meechelle has any idea how to sincerely comfort her grieving daughter - I can’t picture that at all.  My heart breaks for Joy and Austin and I hope they are able to have the time and space to grieve and heal - as best as one can heal after such a hard loss.

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I always laugh at how Pickles considers herself such a feminist. She certainly has no issue exploiting women when it suits her needs. If you recall, she also outed Josh's fifth victim without the woman's permission. 

Regarding Michelle, I think she's so doped up on benzos these days, she wouldn't know an appropriate emotion if one smacked her in the face. 

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Pickles is horrible. 

And I agree about Mechelle. The woman suffered a similar loss but will likely be no comfort to Joy. The woman possesses zero empathy.

As for a crisis of faith, I doubt there will be one. I'm already on record predicting they will go even more hard core fundie than they already are.

Edited by Sew Sumi
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4 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Pickles is horrible. 

And I agree about Mechelle. The woman suffered a similar loss but will likely be no comfort to Joy. 

As for a crisis of faith, I doubt there will be one. I'm already on record predicting they will go even more hard core fundie than they already are.

You are most likely right about the crisis of faith.  I was just thinking that tragedies can really make you question everything around you, including the existence of a god, so was wondering if that would come up for them and cause them to turn away.

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5 minutes ago, Aunt Catfish said:

The hashtags and emoji things piss me off beyond my ability to describe the inappropriate nature of using those damn things in this circumstance!  Next is the use of "y'all" when addressing multiple people those who are not of the South.  I grew up in Kentucky so I am allowed to use this in my finest southern drawl.  This too is not called for in this situation.  There is probably not enough Preparation H in the universe to relieve the burning pain from the ass chewing Miss Jill is likely receiving online right now.  I say Burn Baby Burn Y'all!!!!!  

I said the same thing! What a time to sprinkle your social media with multiple emojis. Totally tasteless & tone deaf to the situation at hand. 

Jilly Muffin has the mental  capacity of a 12 year old though... I’m not surprised by any of it. I could see her clapping & giggling after she made the post. 

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1 hour ago, Tigregirl said:

Pickle has a FB post with a copy of Joy and Austin’s previous ultrasound video they had posted on Instagram.  She is asking if anybody with medical credentials can see any abnormalities in the images.  Just when I think Pickles can’t stoop any lower or be any meaner, she does this.  Pretty despicable.

Now I want an “angry” reaction icon. Will have to go with the built in apple emoji. 😡

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43 minutes ago, Aunt Catfish said:

The hashtags and emoji things piss me off beyond my ability to describe the inappropriate nature of using those damn things in this circumstance!  Next is the use of "y'all" when addressing multiple people those who are not of the South.  I grew up in Kentucky so I am allowed to use this in my finest southern drawl.  This too is not called for in this situation.  There is probably not enough Preparation H in the universe to relieve the burning pain from the ass chewing Miss Jill is likely receiving online right now.  I say Burn Baby Burn Y'all!!!!!  

100% agree.  I'm southern myself (born in TN and live in GA now).  I don't say "y'all" a lot; mainly because I used to say it ALL the time. I tried to break myself of this habit after a northern "friend" called me out on it when I was at that age when it hurt my feelings. But please do not use "y'all" in a condolence posting.  But I do realize a lot of people use y'all, it just seems way too casual to me in this circumstance.  

Edited by Lisa418722
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2 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

I certainly hope she gets it, but somehow I doubt she will. I wonder if Joe intervened? We know he and Joy are close and he and Kendra seem to be capable of empathy. I think it’s unlikely that Lauren would have removed the post unless someone smacked her upside the head with a clue-by-four.

I really do feel terrible for Joy and Austin. I hope they find some comfort and peace.

I think Joe might have intervened. He and Joy do seem close, and Joe and Kendra both seem a little more normal than the rest of the family. I think if anyone in the family is a proper emotional support to her right now,  it's probably Joe.

Someone earlier speculated Austin might give her a spectacular ass chewing over it. I can see that, too.

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It's also just Lauren may have been convinced by the internet. She got a lot of negative feedback about that caption. 

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9 hours ago, truebluesmoky said:

In addition to Lauren’s insensitive babbling, if the family has known for a week, I can’t help but be irritated by Jinger and Jeremy’s self absorbed posts during that time. It’s one thing for Jessa to still post a photo of her newborn, but Jinger and Jeremy have constantly posted glamorous, gratuitous “L.A. lifestyle” photos, as well as 1847373 random pictures of Felicity. It seems insensitive during their sister’s extremely tragic and painful loss. This is the type of loss I would expect Jinger to even fly back for, but at the very least, she could take a hiatus from hat pictures.

I feel like this is rock/hard place territory for them.  Or, for us heathens, damned if you do/damned if you don't.   Jinger and the rest of the family probably knew within a day of Joy and Austin getting the news.  But it didn't break for us for a week.  They must have been told to keep it quiet until J&A were ready.  So what can she do?  If she or the family goes radio silent they know we'll jump on it and suspect something's up.  But if she, and they, post like nothing is out of the ordinary they get push back for being insensitive.  I hate to defend them too often but sometimes I see it differently and I wonder if this was a case where she wasn't being tone deaf but trying to help..........Maybe Jinger was over compensating trying to make things look normal and not spill the secret by excess posting; like when something bad happens and you have that one relative running around re-filling everyone's coffee with a pasted on fake smile who can't stop chirping "everything is OK" as though saying it enough will make it so.

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4 minutes ago, Temperance said:

It's also just Lauren may have been convinced by the internet. She got a lot of negative feedback about that caption. 

I know this might be expecting too much, but I really hope she learned from the experience and didn't just get defensive.

I think at this point, getting Jill to recognize how tone deaf her stuff comes across is a lost cause. . . .

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9 hours ago, doodlebug said:

No way to know.  We know how far along Joy was, but not how big the baby was

My heart goes out to anyone who has every lost a baby, Joy included. (Lauren less so, but she's entitled to her feelings. She should just be more cognizant of her comments.)

My question for those that have been there, because I have not; do they do any sort of autopsy on stillbirths? As the parent, would it bring any peace or understanding to know why your baby died? Obviously it's not going to change anything or help with the feeling of loss and grief, but I could see there being some comfort in knowing your baby didn't suffer from a lifelong illness or something else incompatible with a long or fulfilling life.

My friend was very cautious in her pregnancy, following doctors guidelines to the letter: no soft cheeses, deli meats, prenatal vitamins every day. She said she wanted to know that I'd anything happened that it wasn't sure to something she did. I get that but I always thought that was silly because I thought of it were me I'd always wonder if there was something better I could have done, or not done, or changed. (She ended up with a healthy baby.)

I hope Joy and Austin find comfort as they grieve, and while it wouldn't be my choice of comfort if it's in their faith I can't begrudge them that.

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20 minutes ago, McManda said:

My heart goes out to anyone who has every lost a baby, Joy included. (Lauren less so, but she's entitled to her feelings. She should just be more cognizant of her comments.)

My question for those that have been there, because I have not; do they do any sort of autopsy on stillbirths? As the parent, would it bring any peace or understanding to know why your baby died? Obviously it's not going to change anything or help with the feeling of loss and grief, but I could see there being some comfort in knowing your baby didn't suffer from a lifelong illness or something else incompatible with a long or fulfilling life.

My friend was very cautious in her pregnancy, following doctors guidelines to the letter: no soft cheeses, deli meats, prenatal vitamins every day. She said she wanted to know that I'd anything happened that it wasn't sure to something she did. I get that but I always thought that was silly because I thought of it were me I'd always wonder if there was something better I could have done, or not done, or changed. (She ended up with a healthy baby.)

I hope Joy and Austin find comfort as they grieve, and while it wouldn't be my choice of comfort if it's in their faith I can't begrudge them that.

Autopsies can be done, but most families I know decline because they want to have a memorial service, burial, etc and move on. Not to get too gruesome, but babies remains are delicate and do not last long. Autopsies delay the process. Also, most of the time no definitive answer for why the baby died can be found unless it was fairly obvious at delivery, like a problem with the placenta or fetal anomaly. 

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I have much sympathy for their pain and loss.  

But somebody taking a photo of my husband and I, at that moment, in that place, after that event, would get stabbed with a catheter. 

I wonder if they deliberately asked for that photo and it's distribution.  It looks very composed and purposefully "poignant" to me.  (But yes, I'm cynical)

I don't understand how either of them would want that photo plastered across the entire social media spectrum for the world to "share".  Is that part of their grief process?

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35 minutes ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I feel like this is rock/hard place territory for them.  Or, for us heathens, damned if you do/damned if you don't.   Jinger and the rest of the family probably knew within a day of Joy and Austin getting the news.  But it didn't break for us for a week.  They must have been told to keep it quiet until J&A were ready.  So what can she do?  If she or the family goes radio silent they know we'll jump on it and suspect something's up.  But if she, and they, post like nothing is out of the ordinary they get push back for being insensitive.  

There’s no actual requirement to post on sm. None. Especially as they’re in the midst of a move; they could disappear for a week and everyone would assume they were unpacking.

You’re a kinder person than I am to give them the benefit of the doubt but if your sister has just lost her baby girl YOU DON’T post cute baby girl photos for a while, let alone the same week. 

It’s just tacky as hell and I’m looking at you, too, Jessa. No.

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 What I can’t see is family members using the picture on their own Instagram, with their own message. Joy or Austin posted, why couldn’t family members post on that post? Does anyone think Joy and Austin are going to read the condolences  on Jill’s, Anna’s, Jana’s.........and Lauren’s until she removed it?

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11 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Carlin is in AR with Joy (3pics).

My "best friend" snapping pictures of me like that during that time would probably make me go postal.

Joy and Austin both look really shell shocked in the first picture. 😞

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