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Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

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Pickle has a FB post with a copy of Joy and Austin’s previous ultrasound video they had posted on Instagram.  She is asking if anybody with medical credentials can see any abnormalities in the images.  Just when I think Pickles can’t stoop any lower or be any meaner, she does this.  Pretty despicable.

Since both Joy and Austin have questioned their beliefs before, I wonder if this will bring back all those questions again, and perhaps spur them to go in a different direction.  Especially if they get any kind of implications from family or others that their sins caused this tragedy.  I also wonder if Meechelle has any idea how to sincerely comfort her grieving daughter - I can’t picture that at all.  My heart breaks for Joy and Austin and I hope they are able to have the time and space to grieve and heal - as best as one can heal after such a hard loss.

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I always laugh at how Pickles considers herself such a feminist. She certainly has no issue exploiting women when it suits her needs. If you recall, she also outed Josh's fifth victim without the woman's permission. 

Regarding Michelle, I think she's so doped up on benzos these days, she wouldn't know an appropriate emotion if one smacked her in the face. 

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Pickles is horrible. 

And I agree about Mechelle. The woman suffered a similar loss but will likely be no comfort to Joy. The woman possesses zero empathy.

As for a crisis of faith, I doubt there will be one. I'm already on record predicting they will go even more hard core fundie than they already are.

Edited by Sew Sumi
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4 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Pickles is horrible. 

And I agree about Mechelle. The woman suffered a similar loss but will likely be no comfort to Joy. 

As for a crisis of faith, I doubt there will be one. I'm already on record predicting they will go even more hard core fundie than they already are.

You are most likely right about the crisis of faith.  I was just thinking that tragedies can really make you question everything around you, including the existence of a god, so was wondering if that would come up for them and cause them to turn away.

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5 minutes ago, Aunt Catfish said:

The hashtags and emoji things piss me off beyond my ability to describe the inappropriate nature of using those damn things in this circumstance!  Next is the use of "y'all" when addressing multiple people those who are not of the South.  I grew up in Kentucky so I am allowed to use this in my finest southern drawl.  This too is not called for in this situation.  There is probably not enough Preparation H in the universe to relieve the burning pain from the ass chewing Miss Jill is likely receiving online right now.  I say Burn Baby Burn Y'all!!!!!  

I said the same thing! What a time to sprinkle your social media with multiple emojis. Totally tasteless & tone deaf to the situation at hand. 

Jilly Muffin has the mental  capacity of a 12 year old though... I’m not surprised by any of it. I could see her clapping & giggling after she made the post. 

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1 hour ago, Tigregirl said:

Pickle has a FB post with a copy of Joy and Austin’s previous ultrasound video they had posted on Instagram.  She is asking if anybody with medical credentials can see any abnormalities in the images.  Just when I think Pickles can’t stoop any lower or be any meaner, she does this.  Pretty despicable.

Now I want an “angry” reaction icon. Will have to go with the built in apple emoji. 😡

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43 minutes ago, Aunt Catfish said:

The hashtags and emoji things piss me off beyond my ability to describe the inappropriate nature of using those damn things in this circumstance!  Next is the use of "y'all" when addressing multiple people those who are not of the South.  I grew up in Kentucky so I am allowed to use this in my finest southern drawl.  This too is not called for in this situation.  There is probably not enough Preparation H in the universe to relieve the burning pain from the ass chewing Miss Jill is likely receiving online right now.  I say Burn Baby Burn Y'all!!!!!  

100% agree.  I'm southern myself (born in TN and live in GA now).  I don't say "y'all" a lot; mainly because I used to say it ALL the time. I tried to break myself of this habit after a northern "friend" called me out on it when I was at that age when it hurt my feelings. But please do not use "y'all" in a condolence posting.  But I do realize a lot of people use y'all, it just seems way too casual to me in this circumstance.  

Edited by Lisa418722
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2 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

I certainly hope she gets it, but somehow I doubt she will. I wonder if Joe intervened? We know he and Joy are close and he and Kendra seem to be capable of empathy. I think it’s unlikely that Lauren would have removed the post unless someone smacked her upside the head with a clue-by-four.

I really do feel terrible for Joy and Austin. I hope they find some comfort and peace.

I think Joe might have intervened. He and Joy do seem close, and Joe and Kendra both seem a little more normal than the rest of the family. I think if anyone in the family is a proper emotional support to her right now,  it's probably Joe.

Someone earlier speculated Austin might give her a spectacular ass chewing over it. I can see that, too.

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It's also just Lauren may have been convinced by the internet. She got a lot of negative feedback about that caption. 

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9 hours ago, truebluesmoky said:

In addition to Lauren’s insensitive babbling, if the family has known for a week, I can’t help but be irritated by Jinger and Jeremy’s self absorbed posts during that time. It’s one thing for Jessa to still post a photo of her newborn, but Jinger and Jeremy have constantly posted glamorous, gratuitous “L.A. lifestyle” photos, as well as 1847373 random pictures of Felicity. It seems insensitive during their sister’s extremely tragic and painful loss. This is the type of loss I would expect Jinger to even fly back for, but at the very least, she could take a hiatus from hat pictures.

I feel like this is rock/hard place territory for them.  Or, for us heathens, damned if you do/damned if you don't.   Jinger and the rest of the family probably knew within a day of Joy and Austin getting the news.  But it didn't break for us for a week.  They must have been told to keep it quiet until J&A were ready.  So what can she do?  If she or the family goes radio silent they know we'll jump on it and suspect something's up.  But if she, and they, post like nothing is out of the ordinary they get push back for being insensitive.  I hate to defend them too often but sometimes I see it differently and I wonder if this was a case where she wasn't being tone deaf but trying to help..........Maybe Jinger was over compensating trying to make things look normal and not spill the secret by excess posting; like when something bad happens and you have that one relative running around re-filling everyone's coffee with a pasted on fake smile who can't stop chirping "everything is OK" as though saying it enough will make it so.

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4 minutes ago, Temperance said:

It's also just Lauren may have been convinced by the internet. She got a lot of negative feedback about that caption. 

I know this might be expecting too much, but I really hope she learned from the experience and didn't just get defensive.

I think at this point, getting Jill to recognize how tone deaf her stuff comes across is a lost cause. . . .

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9 hours ago, doodlebug said:

No way to know.  We know how far along Joy was, but not how big the baby was

My heart goes out to anyone who has every lost a baby, Joy included. (Lauren less so, but she's entitled to her feelings. She should just be more cognizant of her comments.)

My question for those that have been there, because I have not; do they do any sort of autopsy on stillbirths? As the parent, would it bring any peace or understanding to know why your baby died? Obviously it's not going to change anything or help with the feeling of loss and grief, but I could see there being some comfort in knowing your baby didn't suffer from a lifelong illness or something else incompatible with a long or fulfilling life.

My friend was very cautious in her pregnancy, following doctors guidelines to the letter: no soft cheeses, deli meats, prenatal vitamins every day. She said she wanted to know that I'd anything happened that it wasn't sure to something she did. I get that but I always thought that was silly because I thought of it were me I'd always wonder if there was something better I could have done, or not done, or changed. (She ended up with a healthy baby.)

I hope Joy and Austin find comfort as they grieve, and while it wouldn't be my choice of comfort if it's in their faith I can't begrudge them that.

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20 minutes ago, McManda said:

My heart goes out to anyone who has every lost a baby, Joy included. (Lauren less so, but she's entitled to her feelings. She should just be more cognizant of her comments.)

My question for those that have been there, because I have not; do they do any sort of autopsy on stillbirths? As the parent, would it bring any peace or understanding to know why your baby died? Obviously it's not going to change anything or help with the feeling of loss and grief, but I could see there being some comfort in knowing your baby didn't suffer from a lifelong illness or something else incompatible with a long or fulfilling life.

My friend was very cautious in her pregnancy, following doctors guidelines to the letter: no soft cheeses, deli meats, prenatal vitamins every day. She said she wanted to know that I'd anything happened that it wasn't sure to something she did. I get that but I always thought that was silly because I thought of it were me I'd always wonder if there was something better I could have done, or not done, or changed. (She ended up with a healthy baby.)

I hope Joy and Austin find comfort as they grieve, and while it wouldn't be my choice of comfort if it's in their faith I can't begrudge them that.

Autopsies can be done, but most families I know decline because they want to have a memorial service, burial, etc and move on. Not to get too gruesome, but babies remains are delicate and do not last long. Autopsies delay the process. Also, most of the time no definitive answer for why the baby died can be found unless it was fairly obvious at delivery, like a problem with the placenta or fetal anomaly. 

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I have much sympathy for their pain and loss.  

But somebody taking a photo of my husband and I, at that moment, in that place, after that event, would get stabbed with a catheter. 

I wonder if they deliberately asked for that photo and it's distribution.  It looks very composed and purposefully "poignant" to me.  (But yes, I'm cynical)

I don't understand how either of them would want that photo plastered across the entire social media spectrum for the world to "share".  Is that part of their grief process?

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35 minutes ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I feel like this is rock/hard place territory for them.  Or, for us heathens, damned if you do/damned if you don't.   Jinger and the rest of the family probably knew within a day of Joy and Austin getting the news.  But it didn't break for us for a week.  They must have been told to keep it quiet until J&A were ready.  So what can she do?  If she or the family goes radio silent they know we'll jump on it and suspect something's up.  But if she, and they, post like nothing is out of the ordinary they get push back for being insensitive.  

There’s no actual requirement to post on sm. None. Especially as they’re in the midst of a move; they could disappear for a week and everyone would assume they were unpacking.

You’re a kinder person than I am to give them the benefit of the doubt but if your sister has just lost her baby girl YOU DON’T post cute baby girl photos for a while, let alone the same week. 

It’s just tacky as hell and I’m looking at you, too, Jessa. No.

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 What I can’t see is family members using the picture on their own Instagram, with their own message. Joy or Austin posted, why couldn’t family members post on that post? Does anyone think Joy and Austin are going to read the condolences  on Jill’s, Anna’s, Jana’s.........and Lauren’s until she removed it?

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11 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Carlin is in AR with Joy (3pics).

My "best friend" snapping pictures of me like that during that time would probably make me go postal.

Joy and Austin both look really shell shocked in the first picture. 😞

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1 minute ago, Zella said:

My "best friend" snapping pictures of me like that during that time would probably make me go postal.

Joy and Austin both look really shell shocked in the first picture. 😞

Poor Joy, doing what she has been trained to do. Suffer in silence and smile for the camera because your baby is with Jesus so you can’t grieve, cry openly or ask God why. You have to take it, accept your sins and move on like a good little Fundie.

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Pretty sure the last thing I would be up for is a photo shoot, but these kids were taught so very little. Carlin is there, but none of Joy's sisters are. Maybe they were at one point. This is the family that grew up with side hugs and really no support in anything. Everything is Jesus/God in their lives and the women do anything and everything for their man. I really hope Joy knows this is not her fault at all.

On a shallow side note. Joy really looks like a young Michelle in these pictures.

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1 minute ago, Lunera said:

Looks like Carlin just took some shots in between their hospital photoshoot. The first picture looks posed. I would want pictures with my baby but this glam and posed photoshoot seems a bit much. Idk these people are weird. 

I was just writing up something about that - she hardly ever really looks 'done' yet her hair is curled & has full make up on. Maybe Carlin did it for Joy to pick her up a bit, but the photo with Austin definitely looks posed. It all just seems 'off' to me. The SM presence during family tragedies is distasteful IMO, & seems like most of them use everything that happens for hits.

She'll probably be pregnant again within a few short months.

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6 minutes ago, Lunera said:

Looks like Carlin just took some shots in between their hospital photoshoot. The first picture looks posed. I would want pictures with my baby but this glam and posed photoshoot seems a bit much. Idk these people are weird. 

Fully agree.  It smells like they are a photo prop in their parents' agenda.  

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3 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

There is a response from Joy on Carlin's post:

"Thank you so much for being there for me and doing my hair and makeup for photos with our sweet baby girl! You brought joy to my heart during this very difficult time! I love you dearly!"

Though it still seems super weird to me (not photos with the baby--that I completely understand--but Carlin plastering photos on the web), if Joy found it helpful, I'm not going to argue with her. Do wonder what Austin thought about participating.

Edited by Zella
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1 hour ago, McManda said:

My question for those that have been there, because I have not; do they do any sort of autopsy on stillbirths? As the parent, would it bring any peace or understanding to know why your baby died? Obviously it's not going to change anything or help with the feeling of loss and grief, but I could see there being some comfort in knowing your baby didn't suffer from a lifelong illness or something else incompatible with a long or fulfilling life.

In my case, the umbilical cord (which apparently was longer than most) got wrapped around her neck and strangled her. That was obvious when she was delivered. I don't know if they would have done an autopsy if the cause has been less obvious. They did take the placenta to examine for anything else. And as far as I know, found nothing.  

I felt terrible, because her movements slowed down in the 2 weeks before her due date. She had dropped and was head down and ready. But the reason she wasn't moving as much was because she was slowly being strangled. The if onlys kill me. If only we had been able to see what was going on. If only... Her heart rate was still within the normal range, and it's normal for the baby to move less as it gets closer to time. We thought I was just not noticing her moving. But she wasn't moving anymore. 

I think not knowing how she died in utero would have been better for me in some ways. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. 

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8 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Right, Jill. Where were YOU during Joy-buddy's ordeal?

I think she might have been Branson, actually. Am trying to double check.

Edit: scratch that. I think they had returned by then.

Edited by Zella
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I lost it with the pic of the tiny footprints. I was crying.  Sobbing. Shell-shocked is probably how they feel. Smiling didn't happen for weeks after. Possibly months. Someone would have taken my picture and wanted me to smile, would have gotten punched. 

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8 hours ago, Trillium said:

There’s a non profit called Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep where they have volunteer photographers come to take photos when there is a stillbirth or when they know they baby will not survive. It’s been around for a while. I had a former coworker who’s sister had a textbook pregnancy and delivery, but the baby had a previously undetected heart defect and passed and they had this service come and take what were the most heartbreaking but beautiful photos and this was like 9 years ago. 

Im not sure if that is the group that came around for my daughter, but someone did. They took pics, the took the baby’s footprint. The made a little box of things for her covered in butterflies, which is a symbol for pregnancy loss. What was extra heartbreaking was that she was naming him Stephen after my niece Stephanie who died 4 months earlier.

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1 hour ago, NotthebadVictoria said:

Poor Joy, doing what she has been trained to do. Suffer in silence and smile for the camera because your baby is with Jesus so you can’t grieve, cry openly or ask God why. You have to take it, accept your sins and move on like a good little Fundie.

I am heartbroken on her behalf, for her loss as well as for her "training."

1 hour ago, dargosmydaddy said:

There is a response from Joy on Carlin's post:

"Thank you so much for being there for me and doing my hair and makeup for photos with our sweet baby girl! You brought joy to my heart during this very difficult time! I love you dearly!"

But I am glad that she has a close friend who came to be with her. That is unusual in Duggardom with the exception of Jana and Laura.

@MichaelaRae I love your post.

@QuinnInND I am so, so sorry for your loss.

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2 hours ago, Oldernowiser said:

There’s no actual requirement to post on sm. None. Especially as they’re in the midst of a move; they could disappear for a week and everyone would assume they were unpacking.

You’re a kinder person than I am to give them the benefit of the doubt but if your sister has just lost her baby girl YOU DON’T post cute baby girl photos for a while, let alone the same week. 

It’s just tacky as hell and I’m looking at you, too, Jessa. No.

I was checking Jessa’s IG (before seeing your post, thinking the same thing you were), and she actually *did* hold off on posting (a static Instagram post - I have NO idea re her IG stories) for a week. Today she posted Spurge with Jana’s dog; yesterday she reposted Joy and Austin’s announcement photo and an Ivy 5.5 wk update/photos before that. But prior to yesterday, her last post was Thursday of last week, June 27th - so the day or day after Joy and Austin found out. Color me surprised. She’d been posting every 2-3 days before that, then with a 9-day posting break after her post re Mary’s death.

And while the tail end of the caption was assumed to be re Grandma Duggar’s recent death, I’d bet her postpartum (especially) self *was* actually teary-eyed with gratitude given the combination. But the caption still reads as appropriate to me - more so - in hindsight. Big brothers loving on baby sister seems painful that day, but I’d also guess - only guess - that Ivy, presuming Joy and Austin had already know and met and snuggled her, is going to be easier, in that way the babies and little kids can be very soothing distractions, in a way that the upcoming births and baby girls *after* their miscarriage won’t be.

7A8AB7B3-C30B-48BB-AA1A-A4E686E005DE.jpeg

Edited by WalrusGirl
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Yeah Jessa's post and her words about today being a gift, tomorrow never guaranteed, does seem to have a very different perspective than we might have thought before knowing this news.

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29 minutes ago, MichaelaRae said:

they would have gone for an induction to deliver and I  suspect that's not something that has to happen immediately

Thanks, everyone, for the info on the process regarding stillbirths. @QuinnInND, I'm so sorry for your experience with your daughter, but thank you for sharing. Mentioning that you wished the was something you could have noticed earlier to prevent it falls more in line with my idea that if it were me, I'd always wonder if there was something I could have done for a different outcome. 

Follow up question: was an induction recommended as soon as possible for Joy? I imagine there would be risk of infection to mom the longer they waited. I'm surprised that Carlin had time to make the trip, only because from my tangential experience with my sister's pregnancy they don't mess around with concerns of a pregnant woman. My sister went to triage a couple of times (they advise it if you fall, for example) and the last time was because she was concerned that baby want moving as much. They ended up sitting her and her daughter was born without too many complications later that night. If they suspected problems with baby and steered Joy to the nearest ER I find it unlikely they'd give her the time to make plans.

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If they steered her to the nearest doctor or ER, that would have been to confirm that the baby's heart had stopped beating. That the fetus was dead. From what I've heard from women who have had this happen (sadly), you don't have to immediately have an induction or D&C. There can be a day or two after, from what I've seen. Though certainly @doodlebug would know more about this than I.

Edited by MichaelaRae
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2 hours ago, JennyMominFL said:

Im not sure if that is the group that came around for my daughter, but someone did. They took pics, the took the baby’s footprint. The made a little box of things for her covered in butterflies, which is a symbol for pregnancy loss. What was extra heartbreaking was that she was naming him Stephen after my niece Stephanie who died 4 months earlier.

Thank you for sharing your story.  A friend of mine knits the tiniest layette sets.  They are donated to the packages you speak of.  The parents can dress their baby in a set for the photos.  Things like that can mean so much to parents.

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20 minutes ago, MichaelaRae said:

If they steered her to the nearest doctor or ER, that would have been to confirm that the baby's heart had stopped beating. That the fetus was dead. From what I've heard from women who have had this happen (sadly), you don't have to immediately have an induction or D&C. There can be a day or two after, from what I've seen. Though certainly @doodlebug would know more about this than I.

That was my impression as well - the rush is when the baby or mom are at risk. Certainly for necessary D&Cs after miscarriage my friends have had a day or several between the event/diagnostics and the outpatient D&C. At 20 weeks, she’d have had to be induced and deliver, and I suspect that would have happened the next day even if they went ahead and admitted her following the confirmation. 😔

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