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Tara Ariano

S33.E10: Million Dollar Gamble

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Hannah's inability to lie is beyond pathetic into the "awkward" stage.  She torpedoed Zeke's entire blindsiding because she couldn't simply agree with someone (and whoever said above it's because she was trying to have her cake and eat it too by straddling two alliances... well, if she'd successfully told a simple lie, Zeke might have gone home and been no threat at all).  She has consistently been one of the dumbest players- and in some ways, most childish/immature- this show has seen in a long time, and it's awkward to watch her on screen flailing about ineptly.

Zeke has kind of turned nasty, although not quite irredeemably so; I think I'm definitely Team David at this point, which... well, I'm as surprised as you are based on what I thought after episode 1.   A Ken/David finale would be pretty awesome.  A Zeke/Jay finale would... be less enjoyable.  At this point though, no one else besides those 4 really deserves to even be in the finale, based on what we've seen on screen.  Sunday is kind of a non-factor; Adam has been too chaotic; Hannah is laughably bad; and Will is barely on screen (but who knows, could play a role going forward).  

I hate the rock thing, but I get why it's there and that it's not a surprise at this point.  I however don't understand literally anyone here saying Jessica brought it on herself: all of the people could have switched to break the tie, why is it specifically on her to do so?  Because she's clairvoyant and knew she'd draw the rock?  What if it'd been Jay, or Brett, or Sunday- would Jessica still have been stupid?  I mean, had Brett gone home it'd have been karmically hilarious- but then Brett wouldn't have been on record said about himself "Brett you dummy it's your fault for not switching!".  However, he's a contestant; what are these posters' excuses?

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1 hour ago, hincandenza said:

A Ken/David finale would be pretty awesome.  A Zeke/Jay finale would... be less enjoyable.  At this point though, no one else besides those 4 really deserves to even be in the finale, based on what we've seen on screen.  Sunday is kind of a non-factor; Adam has been too chaotic; Hannah is laughably bad; and Will is barely on screen (but who knows, could play a role going forward). 

I wouldn't want a Ken / David finale because I don't think Ken has played this game as hard compared to others. He's a nice man no doubt but I don't see much game play from him so far. Zeke / David / Jay finale would be very interesting because these guys are all originally from different alliances and all 3 of them have played the game (with risk) thus far. I wouldn't mind any of them winning and it would actually be a nail biter because each has good chance to win given the make up of the jury.

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9 hours ago, ghoulina said:

WHY do people keep telling???   I get that they think it buys them some trust/leverage, but it almost never works out. The only person on that island I'd tell is Ken. Not because I'd want a chance to stare into his soulful eyes, but because I 100% think he's the only out there you could trust to never tell. 

 

Ghou!!   LOL   And there you go--risking a million dollars that a relative stranger will keep your secret, at the expense of his own million dollars.  Grrrrl, you know better.

I wouldn't even tell the fruit bat.

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If I ever got on this show -- which I won't, because I don't like camping in hot, buggy conditions with no food or wine -- and I found an idol -- which I won't because I'd be too hungry to go hunting for one -- I'd never EVER tell anyone I had one. You don't win that way. You win by being a sneaky, conniving liar. Which, again, I am not.

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45 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

If I ever got on this show -- which I won't, because I don't like camping in hot, buggy conditions with no food or wine -- and I found an idol -- which I won't because I'd be too hungry to go hunting for one -- I'd never EVER tell anyone I had one. You don't win that way. You win by being a sneaky, conniving liar. Which, again, I am not.

Heh. Yeah, telling people to gain their trust is just bullshit. However, this season the players are not too bad in general about their idol secret. I don't think anyone knows Adam has one. And Jay literally had no choice about Will knowing because they found it together. Will was right beside him when he foundit and and then Michaela walked in. Worst luck ever. Will was the one who blabbed and Will wouldn't care because it's not his idol. David is the only one who told people about his HII, including Zeke of all people.

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20 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I think one can be intelligent in other ways, but not be great at puzzles. Ken is well spoken, and has expressed a love of the written word and vinyl. He seems very capable in a survival element (catches a lot of food, knows how to build a shelter, etc.) I think he's probably fairly smart, but puzzles just aren't this thing. We can't forget that he was working with two other people too, and group dynamics can sometimes screw people up. 

Oh, agreed - I should have said "not the sharpest tool in the puzzle shed." I think part of my frustration was because when the sand worm challenge started, I thought "okay, three fit dudes in the middle are gonna win. But if it's the mish-mash of the weirdos closer to the screen, I'm good with that too. Just please, for the love of criminy, do not let it be useless Sunday and glutton Brett's team. PLEASE!" And that snake puzzle did not look super hard (whereas I could see the block one as presenting a challenge), so extra disappointing.

Plus, puzzles are my jam (which I'd never foolishly admit if on this show), so maybe seeing that dreamy demigod Ken is not some puzzle genius in addition to being practically perfect in every way helps foster the fantasy. "Hey, babe, you stay topless and keep chopping coconuts - I got this jigsaw under control."

Edited by Dewey Decimate
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13 hours ago, Lingo said:

This was like the US Legislature fighting over the budget when no one will compromise and so the government gets shut down. Only this time it's one of the senators who loses her job.

What a marvelous idea.

 

10 hours ago, waving feather said:

And Michelle said in one of her exit interviews that Zeke told her he can't work with her because of her religion or her profession.

Whoa!  I hate that sort of religious bigotry.  Now, I wonder if he wants all our American Muslims deported.

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4 hours ago, waving feather said:

I wouldn't want a Ken / David finale because I don't think Ken has played this game as hard compared to others. He's a nice man no doubt but I don't see much game play from him so far. Zeke / David / Jay finale would be very interesting because these guys are all originally from different alliances and all 3 of them have played the game (with risk) thus far. I wouldn't mind any of them winning and it would actually be a nail biter because each has good chance to win given the make up of the jury.

I thought I was the only one who didn't get the Ken love.  Yeah, he's nice to look at but in my book that doesn't deserve a win.  He really hasn't done anything strategic that I can remember and he hasn't shown himself to be good at most challenges.  Maybe as the contestants get winnowed down he'll do more.  I hope so.  (Half the time I'm playing solitaire on my ipad and only listening, so perhaps he has done more than I know.)  I agree that David, Zeke, and Jay would make an interesting finale.  Or maybe even Adam.

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14 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Will, I'm not sure. He seems more intelligent, as if he's intentionally laying low. We shall see. 

I have an inkling that Will will get to the top 6 (finale episode) and be sent home in an unremarkable fashion- I can't think of a reason as to why he'd be so invisible up to this point other than his eventual ouster having to be yadda-yadda'd over in favor of more interesting topics. The only airtime he's gotten so far has shown situations that are required for the show (II win) or required to make sense of what's to come (blabbing about Jay's idol). I thought his explanation of "I'm telling you important information so I can build trust with you!" to Zeke was very on the nose and didn't demonstrate very good gameplay, especially when he gave that info away without getting anything back in return.

But then again, I never saw the Michelle win coming last season, so I don't put much stock in my own opinions about players anymore!

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A couple of things bothered me about Bret's and Zeke's nastiness to David at tribal:

  • It always bothers me when someone uses another person's weakness/vulnerability as a weapon to attack that person (from personal experience at the receiving end). Bret was the first to stand up and applaud when David won immunity, then he follows Zeke's lead in taunting David. And that "Are you going to cry now, David?" was such a cheap shot, which leads to my next point . . .
  • There's no game play purpose in that kind of behavior. Cheap shots don't advance your game, that just make you look bad to everyone else. They might work as an intimidation ploy.

The difference between this and Taylor's and Jay's lies last week is that Taylor and Jay lied to deflect attention from themselves to another person. It was stupid and mean, but the motivation was survival in the game as opposed to taking a cheap shot for the sake of taking a cheap shot.

Great episodes to watch! I felt bad for Jessica. There's no one I really dislike, like I did Will (Worlds Apart) or Scot or Jason.

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14 hours ago, ghoulina said:

WHY do people keep telling??? I get that they think it buys them some trust/leverage, but it almost never works out. The only person on that island I'd tell is Ken. Not because I'd want a chance to stare into his soulful eyes, but because I 100% think he's the only out there you could trust to never tell.   

<snip>

Why do people keep telling?   Allow me to make a guess?

It's exciting to have a secret and share a secret.  Even if you know that sharing that secret may well cause you great harm, it is still exciting and it makes one feel powerful to have that info and then share that info.

I understand the emotion behind your post. You want to know why people continue to be so foolish. Even when they know that opening their mouths will likely cause them great harm .... they do it anyway.

Perhaps the lesson is that people value sharing info with others above and beyond causing themselves great harm.

What is the lesson? I'm not sure but perhaps it just might be that people can be such dumbass jerks? Maybe. Maybe not. I can't really say for sure. However, if the day should ever come when someone will push a button and launch a whole bunch of nuclear missles and destroy all the life on this planet, my guess will be the cause will be some kind of misunderstanding or quarrel or some kind of hatred between two people belonging to opposite genders.  IOW, it will be a fight between a man and a woman. That is just my guess. I don't know which gender it will be who pushes the button. But I'm pretty sure that it will be a serious fight between a man and a woman that starts things going KA-BLOOHIE!  I hope not. But I sure would have to guess that is what will do it.  Either that. Or a fight about oil or some other source of energy. It's just my guess.

To understand fully, I would guess that you really need to examine people of your same gender. It's hard enough to understand the inner workings of people of your same gender. Trying to understand people of the opposite gender is ... well ... sigh ... just forget about it! That is just too difficult. Especially if you are a (BLANK) and you are trying to understand the mental machinations of the (BLANK) gender. (fill in the blanks yourself).

I removed the actual gender names because no matter which gender I posted is more difficult to understand, I just knew that I would have to suffer the slings and arrows of massive Shakespearian torment. I may be strong. But IMHO, no one is that strong!

I do not intend to sling any offense at anyone. It's freaking impossible. But I don't intend to do that because ... I can't stand up to the kind of abuse I would receive if I did intend to sling some abuse at all the people belonging to one of the genders. Sorry. That is just too much to withstand. It's just impossible. Sorry.

Edited by AliShibaz

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I think people are saying that about Jessica and not the others because she was the only one who was even considering flipping but she let herself get talked out of it. And, of course, it came back to bite her in the ass.  So when she started sobbing, sure you felt for her but, at the same time, it was her own fault. (And, yes, I'm fairly confident we'd be saying the same thing if any of the others had thought about flipping then decided not to.)

 

(Sorry, I tried to quote but I just can't get it to work)  I was responding to this: 

OMG, if that's the "logic" all I can do is facepalm.  Good grief.

Edited by Rachel RSL
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I am fully on board that Ken's gameplay has been less than stellar for a Survivor contestant.  I mean, he got lucky early on that Jessica turned on her alliance or Ken would possibly be gone by now.  

However...I am incredibly shallow.  I never turned on Burton even when he was an ass.  If I hitch my wagon to the hot guy, I am staying with it come hell or high water.  I will root for him to win every challenge and get nervous at every TC.  

And now you know more about me as a viewer than you ever knew you didn't want.

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13 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:
Quote

I guess people are saying that because SHE went home. But, of course, she couldn't know that.

OMG, if that's the "logic" all I can do is facepalm.  Good grief.

I think people are saying that about Jessica and not the others because she was the only one who was even considering flipping but she let herself get talked out of it. And, of course, it came back to bite her in the ass.  So when she started sobbing, sure you felt for her but, at the same time, it was her own fault. (And, yes, I'm fairly confident we'd be saying the same thing if any of the others had thought about flipping then decided not to.)

 

It's very strange. But I never really cared for Jessica very much all season. But as soon as I saw how the vote went against her and how she cried those tears, for some reason, I felt really bad and I wanted to console her and hug her. I'm sorry they did that to you Jessica. They behaved badly towards you! I'm so sorry! I felt like crying!

Maybe you could sneak up on one of them while they sleep and give them a tattoo against their will. That would definitely give them a lesson they would never forget!   Lousy Bastards!

Edited by AliShibaz
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Who behaved badly towards her? The rocks? Because her tribemates were all very nice to her.

 

Edited to add: I'm with you in the shallow end of the pool mojoween! Although, I do think Ken has played a pretty good, if not subdued, game. He hasn't made huge moves but he does always seem pretty aware of what's going on and who is scheming with who (whom?) Whatever, he's pretty!

Edited by Rachel RSL
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8 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Who behaved badly towards her? The rocks? Because her tribemates were all very nice to her.

IMO, voting her out was behaving badly towards her. You may not agree. If you don't agree, I will understand. But it sure is impossible for me to explain why. For some reason, this seems to be a very extreme case of bad behavior. I may not know exactly why. But I sure do know that it was a very painful incident. Painful for Jessica, that is. Those tears were real tears. Real painful tears.

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6 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

But she wasn't voted out. She simply chose the wrong rock.

Yes, OK. Quite right. Thanks for pointing that out. I gues that  I just got caught up in the emotion and my brain turned off. I still feel bad for Jessica. Even though she is a criminal prosecution lawyer and  the only thing I hate worse than lawyers are criminal lawyers. And the only thing I hate worse than criminal lawyers are criminal prosecution lawyers. I guess my brain just turned completely off.

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19 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

Back to the IC, was Jay the only one using both hands? Did the others think to only use one hand? 

Some others besides Jay were feeling around with both hands. Hell, they all might have been. They didn't show close-ups of all of them doing the maze.

19 hours ago, Daisy said:

I miss the whole "the two people duke it out." or even more "prior votes against.

I do, too. I like the rocks because they make for unpredictable and exciting and frustrating TCs, but I think the 'prior votes against' method was a bit fairer and still exciting.

18 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Why is everyone saying Jessica was the stupid one not to switch her vote? No one else switched their vote either.    I've said I think it's generally a bad move to switch votes in that situation no matter who you are, but even if you disagree with that: why weren't all the others stupid as well? 

Thank you! IMO Will was definitely the biggest idiot on that vote. Zeke will throw him overboard in a hot minute! Jessica is actually really close to David and Ken, so it makes more sense to me that she would stand with them on the vote. Will has no real alliances and has been switching sides quite a lot, so I just truly don't understand why he was so steadfast with not voting out Zeke. Same with Brett really, but he did just have the bonding session with Zeke that he probably thinks could become a solid alliance, so it makes a bit more sense.

18 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

At the start of the two hours I was saying that the only fault in this wonderful season was that I liked everyone and didn't have anyone to hate.  Now I have Bret and Zeke!   Perfect.

Same!

12 hours ago, waving feather said:

I had no misgivings about Zeke until I watched some of his behind the scene confessionals on YouTube. The way he ridiculed Michelle because she was telling them about Marco Polo writing about dragons was quite unnecessary. And Michelle said in one of her exit interviews that Zeke told her he can't work with her because of her religion or her profession. I thought that was weird.

Same thing happened with me. I really didn't get some posters' hatred of Zeke and the thought that he was an asshole, but then I saw that secret scene of him ridiculing Michelle and I was like, damn, he's a dick. And then yea reading about how he told Michelle he couldn't work with her because of her religion soured me on him, too. And then in this ep, first with his comment about going after Hannah because she 'didn't have [his] best interests in mind' combined with his mocking of David at TC has me really rooting against him.

Edited by peachmangosteen
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12 hours ago, candall said:

Ghou!!   LOL   And there you go--risking a million dollars that a relative stranger will keep your secret, at the expense of his own million dollars.  Grrrrl, you know better.

I wouldn't even tell the fruit bat.

LOL, what did the fruit bat ever do to you? He has very trusting eyes!

 

7 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

Edited to add: I'm with you in the shallow end of the pool mojoween! Although, I do think Ken has played a pretty good, if not subdued, game. He hasn't made huge moves but he does always seem pretty aware of what's going on and who is scheming with who (whom?) Whatever, he's pretty!

I think there's still time for him to make bigger, more strategic moves. I still credit him a lot with Paul's ouster, as well as Figgy's. He has a way of subtly putting ideas into people's heads, where it seems like said person thought of it on their own. He hasn't been the most impressive player this season, but not the least impressive either. I think he could have easily been an early out on the Gen X team - more fit than the other guys, not really part of the bro back, knows a lot about life around camp. He could have easily been the "threat" that the bro group tried to get out early. But he kept quiet and didn't try to assert himself anywhere and dropped little hints about how annoying Paul was, and avoided that target. Then things got all shook up around camp and he wasn't even on the radar anymore. 

Now, some of that may just be his natural personality. But I do think he quietly assesses things and tries to reposition things as need be. And it all depends on what your jury wants, in the end. I've seen players who I thought played amazing strategic games lose to "nicer", but less impressive players. I tend to favor those who play hard, but not always. It is really different every season. Ken could get to the end with someone the jury really doesn't like and win. Or the jury could vote for the one they don't like, but think deserves it. You really never know. I wouldn't count him out yet. My memory is horrible, but I know there have been winners who haven't started really playing until late in the game. 

Edited by ghoulina
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1 hour ago, AliShibaz said:

It's exciting to have a secret and share a secret.  Even if you know that sharing that secret may well cause you great harm, it is still exciting and it makes one feel powerful to have that info and then share that info.

This would be me. I like to think I'd be smarter than that and not tell anyone, but in reality I would be way too excited to keep it to myself. I'd also be worried I'd use it wrong and I'd want someone I trusted as a sounding board.

 

8 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

IMO Will was definitely the biggest idiot on that vote. Zeke will throw him overboard in a hot minute! Jessica is actually really close to David and Ken, so it makes more sense to me that she would stand with them on the vote. Will has no real alliances and has been switching sides quite a lot, so I just truly don't understand why he was so steadfast with not voting out Zeke.

My thought is that Will felt that Jessica was going to flip and he didn't want to flip too and keep it a tie. I certainly thought Jessica was going to flip.

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1 hour ago, mojoween said:

I am fully on board that Ken's gameplay has been less than stellar for a Survivor contestant.  I mean, he got lucky early on that Jessica turned on her alliance or Ken would possibly be gone by now.  

However...I am incredibly shallow.  I never turned on Burton even when he was an ass.  If I hitch my wagon to the hot guy, I am staying with it come hell or high water.  I will root for him to win every challenge and get nervous at every TC.  

And now you know more about me as a viewer than you ever knew you didn't want.

I don't know any more than I would ever want to know. I am interested in who you are and why you think we would care. In general, we are a fairly inquisitive bunch. I hope you will give us a chance. You just might be surprised. After all, if we are interested in most of this scum, why do you think we would not be interested in you? I think we would be. I think you should give us a shot!  We just might surprise you after all!

1 hour ago, Rachel RSL said:

But she wasn't voted out. She simply chose the wrong rock.

Any one could choose the wrong rock.You can always mistake our interest for genuine sincerety. Just give us a shot? We may surprise you. After all, if we chose the wrong rock, we could easily choose something else.

Edited by AliShibaz
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2 minutes ago, AliShibaz said:

Any one could choose the wrong rock.You can always mistake our interest for genuine sincerety. Just give us a shot? We may surprise you.

Huh?

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2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

What a marvelous idea.

Whoa!  I hate that sort of religious bigotry.  Now, I wonder if he wants all our American Muslims deported.

Marvelous? Oh, yes indeed!  Now, just tell us how to make them bow. If you can do that, I will go along with almost anything! Bravo! Bravo!

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2 hours ago, charleeeeeeeeene said:

I have an inkling that Will will get to the top 6 (finale episode) and be sent home in an unremarkable fashion- I can't think of a reason as to why he'd be so invisible up to this point other than his eventual ouster having to be yadda-yadda'd over in favor of more interesting topics. The only airtime he's gotten so far has shown situations that are required for the show (II win) or required to make sense of what's to come (blabbing about Jay's idol). I thought his explanation of "I'm telling you important information so I can build trust with you!" to Zeke was very on the nose and didn't demonstrate very good gameplay, especially when he gave that info away without getting anything back in return.

But then again, I never saw the Michelle win coming last season, so I don't put much stock in my own opinions about players anymore!

I wonder if he'll go on reward and drink and then get kicked off...we have seen Probst really hammer home that Will is NOT allowed to drink, twice now.

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3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Whoa!  I hate that sort of religious bigotry.  Now, I wonder if he wants all our American Muslims deported.

We don't really know what Zeke and Michelle discussed. If her religion tells her that Zeke's identity is an abomination, that's not religious bigotry on his part for not wanting to work with her.

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Telling about idol versus not.  Are there past contestants who didn't tell anyone?  I always think back to how Yul telling Becky about his idol definitely helped him, but his was the First Idol, right, so it doesn't really count?  Because the way the idol worked back then in the Dark Ages was completely different and the producers had to change it.

What I'm wondering is, if there has NEVER been a player who had an idol and kept it a secret, I wonder if they are forced by producers to reveal it to another castmate so that they can film it.  But this obviously seems very shady and against some kind of law and rule so hopefully not.

Okay so reading back, apparently Adam has one and didn't tell anyone.  That's cool. 

Being good at puzzles.  I think I'm good at puzzles.  But on the island, with all that pressure, and lack of nutrition, I don't know.  LOL.  I'd be so worried I'd look stupid.  

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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2 hours ago, mojoween said:

However...I am incredibly shallow.  I never turned on Burton even when he was an ass.  If I hitch my wagon to the hot guy, I am staying with it come hell or high water.  I will root for him to win every challenge and get nervous at every TC.  

One of the craziest seasons for me was Panama.  Why?  Because the hot guy I had been rooting for throughout the game actually won - Aras.  Never would I have ever guessed that would have happened.  I even stopped watching before it got to the end and was really upset with myself afterwards.  (I was rooting for Ozzy during Yul's season.)

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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One thing that I found amusing was Jay saying his back was literally against the wall and then he shimmied against the rock he was leaning on.  I mean it was a rock and not a wall but I appreciate he knew he was basically using it correctly.

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What I'm wondering is, if there has NEVER been a player who had an idol and kept it a secret

A couple seasons ago (I forget which), Kelly Wentworth didn't tell anyone about her idol, not even the people in her alliance, so when she whipped it out at Tribal Council, literally *everyone* was shocked. In my opinion, that was probably the best blindside in Survivor history because it blindsided literally every single person. It also resulted in Andrew Savage getting booted which made it all that more glorious.

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11 minutes ago, huahaha said:

We don't really know what Zeke and Michelle discussed. If her religion tells her that Zeke's identity is an abomination, that's not religious bigotry on his part for not wanting to work with her.

Then he doesn't have to like her or be her friend.  And in truth, he doesn't have to work with her.  But in the real world, it's not always that cut and dried.  Intolerance goes both ways.  I have a coworker who is very rigidly religious, insists that the Bible is the direct word of God, etc. etc. and finds my gay and trans friends to be an absolute abomination to the human race...when she even acknowledges that they are human, that is.  For my part, I find her literal translation of the Bible ridiculous...I pointed out to her once that even if they were God's words, man wrote them down and they have since  been translated and interpreted numerous times, leading them to likely be nothing like what was originally intended.  (Like a game of Telephone!)  We butt heads on nearly everything related to our lives outside of work.  But we work together, and very well, too, because we are both adult enough to realize that our common goals...a pleasant work environment, our interest in our jobs, our continued employment in a field we both enjoy...require it.  I don't like her, and we are definitely not friends, but I put that aside while at work.  And although a "Survivor" situation requires spending 24/7 with the person, it's only for a few weeks...suck it up and agree to disagree for the sake of your game!  YMMV, of course, but that's what I would do.

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I don't like her, and we are definitely not friends, but I put that aside while at work.  And although a "Survivor" situation requires spending 24/7 with the person, it's only for a few weeks...suck it up and agree to disagree for the sake of your game!  YMMV, of course, but that's what I would do.

 

This is sort of apples and oranges though. You are in a professional setting where you are obligated to work with this woman unless you want to quit or demand that you will not work with her. On Survivor, people have the choice to work with, align with and talk to who they want to. They are not obligated to work with anyone, period. People align with people for all sorts of reasons and similarly, they can choose to not work with someone for whatever reason.

Of course this is moot, as the post above says Michelle stated she was misquoted. But I certainly would not begrudge a gay person competing on Survivor who willingly chose to not work with someone who expressed to them that they think who they are is wrong and their entire existence is a sin. That is not being intolerant. That is saying, "I accept that's how you feel, but how I feel is that I am not comfortable working with someone who believes who I am is a sin". 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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21 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Why is everyone saying Jessica was the stupid one not to switch her vote? No one else switched their vote either.    I've said I think it's generally a bad move to switch votes in that situation no matter who you are, but even if you disagree with that: why weren't all the others stupid as well? 

I completely sympathized with Jess during that TC.  Her head was spinning (as evidenced by her excellent and now-classic "surprised marmoset" face).  As the last to vote, she had Hannah on one side and Zeke on the other, begging for her vote.  But how do you know whether or not to flip?  If two people flip, it's another tie, and you draw rocks anyway.  What surprises me is that no one else freaked out like Jess did.  Will looked a little bit shell-shocked, but everyone else seemed pretty damned confident during that second vote.  I don't understand that at all.

 

15 hours ago, Wandering Snark said:

Chalk up another great play for Adam... dude is a MESS at tribal. WHY oh why would you listen to him instead of your gut telling you to protect Hannah? Ugh.

I may have missed this in previous posts...but Sunday mouthed the name "Ken" and Adam saw that, and subsequently told David.  Did Sunday come up with that all by herself, knowing that Adam was watching her?  If so, I may have to give her kudos for a great move even though I really don't want to.  I'm still trying to unravel that last TC.  For Sunday to say Ken's name seems awfully risky to me, if Ken wasn't the target.  Why would she do that?  Anyone sitting to her left could've seen her do that, and it could've blown up right then and there.  I only wish Ken himself saw her say his name.

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Remember that Zeke and Michelle appeared polite to each other and did work well together during challenges. They didn't seem to cause any discord at camp. Zeke simply chose not to align with Michelle; he didn't stone her.

I'll note that Will is Christian (I saw a few news articles where he focused on his faith) and Zeke doesn't appear (so far) to have a problem working with him. So Michelle could have been misquoted, or there was maybe something specific about her faith that was an issue for Zeke, or Zeke used her religion as an excuse to avoid working with her for other reasons.

There are a lot of permutations of scenarios and feelings that could explain it. They seem friendly enough, so I'm not going to get too worked up about hunting down the truth to judge someone.

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3 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Thank you! IMO Will was definitely the biggest idiot on that vote. Zeke will throw him overboard in a hot minute! Jessica is actually really close to David and Ken, so it makes more sense to me that she would stand with them on the vote. Will has no real alliances and has been switching sides quite a lot, so I just truly don't understand why he was so steadfast with not voting out Zeke. Same with Brett really, but he did just have the bonding session with Zeke that he probably thinks could become a solid alliance, so it makes a bit more sense.

I think for Zeke's cobbled together alliance, it makes way more sense to stick with Zeke then flip. Zeke's stated goal is to get out David but he went about it sideways because he knew about the idol and he was annoyed that Hannah wasn't siding with him. David's goal was to get out Zeke and he went straight at the problem. If you're Will or Brett and you flip Zeke is gone and that alliance is all still there and you are still at the bottom. If Hannah had gone home, Zeke still wants to get rid of David and if David is somehow immune next Tribal there is still Ken or Jessica that can be picked off. 

Of course that means you are risking that if no one on the other side flips you could go home on rocks but if you make it, you've probably bought yourself two more Tribal Councils before you're an obvious target again. 

The only person who should have considered flipping was Adam since he's clearly at he bottom of his alliance but even then I'm convinced if you flip in that situation you'll never win. 

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15 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

What's more, we saw how nasty and angry Zeke is when he doesn't get his way after the Mari vote. Every time Jay or Taylor or any of the others who were labeled "entitled" lost a vote, they moved on. Any anger was confined to private confessionals. Publicly, they took the condescension and constant need to rub it in their faces with good sportsmanship. Jay has even congratulated his opposition. Zeke, Adam and Bret, on the other hand, lash out, get angry, and just flat out act like assholes. This isn't the first time Zeke has shown just how petty and dickish he is, and it's not the first person he has targeted. He's awful. 

You know, whenever people on the forums complained about Zeke before, I just dismissed it as overreactions and moved on. But when Hannah stated on-air that she was considering voting out her Day-1 alliance (for David, of all people!) because he was often condescending, I had to sit up and take notice.

12 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

It's not that novel, really.  It's why rocks were replaced by a fire-making challenge starting at Final 4 because at Final 4, rocks are mathematically impossible to pull off because, as in your scenario, there's no one left to draw rocks.  So under your scenario, the Final 4 rule would apply and there'd be a fire-making challenge instead of rocks.

Well actually, it's not exactly the same scenario. At F4, assuming no idols are played*, one person has immunity and 3 are vulnerable. If it's a 2-2 tie, then the 2 people who got votes would be safe, but there's still a fourth player eligible to draw a rock. The problem with that scenario is that the 4th player will know he's the only one vulnerable, so he'll have no choice but to switch his vote to whoever the person with immunity voted for. So essentially, the person with immunity has all the power to determine who goes home. That's too much power. At least with a fire challenge that person has a shot at staying.

*And I think these days you always have to play your idol at F5, so there wouldn't be any remaining idols.

I gave you a heart though because I agree that the most likely way they'd resolve my 6-person scenario would be with a fire challenge between the 2 original vote-getters.

2 hours ago, MadRat said:

My thought is that Will felt that Jessica was going to flip and he didn't want to flip too and keep it a tie. I certainly thought Jessica was going to flip.

Maybe so, although he voted first so he wouldn't have seen everyone trying to convince Jessica to flip.

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Telling about idol versus not.  Are there past contestants who didn't tell anyone?  I always think back to how Yul telling Becky about his idol definitely helped him, but his was the First Idol, right, so it doesn't really count?  Because the way the idol worked back then in the Dark Ages was completely different and the producers had to change it.

What I'm wondering is, if there has NEVER been a player who had an idol and kept it a secret, I wonder if they are forced by producers to reveal it to another castmate so that they can film it.  But this obviously seems very shady and against some kind of law and rule so hopefully not.

Okay so reading back, apparently Adam has one and didn't tell anyone.  That's cool. 

Yeah, there've been plenty of people who've kept it a secret. Not only Kelly Wentworth, but I think Jeremy didn't tell anyone about either of his idols. Carolyn in the season before that, I think. Sandra when she got the last idol in Heroes vs. Villains. I think there have been many cases.

14 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

I may have missed this in previous posts...but Sunday mouthed the name "Ken" and Adam saw that, and subsequently told David.  Did Sunday come up with that all by herself, knowing that Adam was watching her?  If so, I may have to give her kudos for a great move even though I really don't want to.  I'm still trying to unravel that last TC.  For Sunday to say Ken's name seems awfully risky to me, if Ken wasn't the target.  Why would she do that?  Anyone sitting to her left could've seen her do that, and it could've blown up right then and there.  I only wish Ken himself saw her say his name.

The plan was to vote for Hannah. The person who asked Sunday who the target was was ... Hannah. She had to come up with a different name. She might have blurted out "Ken" because her mind blanked and Ken was the one talking at that moment. Or it could have been a plan her alliance came up with before the vote. But the way she paused before she said Ken makes me think she improvised.

11 minutes ago, vibeology said:

The only person who should have considered flipping was Adam since he's clearly at he bottom of his alliance but even then I'm convinced if you flip in that situation you'll never win. 

Adam might think he's higher in that alliance than Hannah because he's built a relationship with Ken and Jessica before the merge.

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4 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

I think people are saying that about Jessica and not the others because she was the only one who was even considering flipping but she let herself get talked out of it. And, of course, it came back to bite her in the ass.  So when she started sobbing, sure you felt for her but, at the same time, it was her own fault. (And, yes, I'm fairly confident we'd be saying the same thing if any of the others had thought about flipping then decided not to.)

 

(Sorry, I tried to quote but I just can't get it to work)  I was responding to this: 

 

We don't know if Jessica was the only person considering flipping  - she's the only one that was shown to be thinking about it. And it was probably shown because she was the one who chose the black rock.

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Possibly but, if anyone else was considering flipping, Hannah and Zeke were only campaigning to her and nobody else which seems like a pretty good indication that Jessica was the one who wasn't sure what to do.  Maybe others were considering flipping but she was the only one who actually said anything out loud about it or seemed the least bit conflicted.

Edited by Rachel RSL
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5 hours ago, huahaha said:

We don't really know what Zeke and Michelle discussed. If her religion tells her that Zeke's identity is an abomination, that's not religious bigotry on his part for not wanting to work with her.

That's why I compared it to bigotry against Muslims.  Thinking that all Christians hate gays is like thinking that all Muslims are terrorists.  I'm a Christian and my pastor is a lesbian.  Almost all old religions have something in their ancient scriptures against same sex relationships, I know that both the Koran and the Old Testament do -- that doesn't mean that 4000 years later most people haven't been enlightened in that area and practices haven't changed.  It's like not going to a doctor because Hippocrates  was wrong on some things.  I wonder if Zeke questioned everyone there  about these things, or just Michelle? 

Edited by JudyObscure
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5 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I think there's still time for him to make bigger, more strategic moves. I still credit him a lot with Paul's ouster, as well as Figgy's. He has a way of subtly putting ideas into people's heads, where it seems like said person thought of it on their own. He hasn't been the most impressive player this season, but not the least impressive either. I think he could have easily been an early out on the Gen X team - more fit than the other guys, no really part of the pro back, knows a lot about life around camp. He could have easily been the "threat" that the bro group tried to get out early. But he kept quiet and didn't try to assert himself anywhere and dropped little hints about how annoying Paul was, and avoided that target. Then things got all shook up around camp and he wasn't even on the radar anymore. 

Now, some of that may just be his natural personality. But I do think he quietly assesses things and tries to reposition things as need be. And it all depends on what your jury wants, in the end. I've seen players who I thought played amazing strategic games lose to "nicer", but less impressive players. I tend to favor those who play hard, but not always. It is really different every season. Ken could get to the end with someone the jury really doesn't like and win. Or the jury could vote for the one they don't like, but think deserves it. You really never know. I wouldn't count him out yet. My memory is horrible, but I know there have been winners who haven't started really playing until late in the game. 

I agree with all of this. I see a difference between how Ken is playing and how Brett/Sunday are playing. Ken is very good at insinuating and, like you said, putting ideas into people's minds and then having them think that it was their idea all along. I like his style much better than the lead from the top, tell your soldiers what to do, arrogant and kind of dictatorial "playing hard and making big moves" style that most people seem to favor which is how Jay, Zeke, and Chris ran things when they felt like they were in control and had the numbers. Ken plays from the bottom in a very effective way. He's not sitting on his ass and just going along with what others tell him to do, from what I've seen. IMO, it was mostly him who orchestrated the ousting of Paul and Jess did a lot of the work by getting the other women on board (which she later got blamed for by, like, everyone including the women she got on board such as Lucy and Sunday). He played a big role in firmly planting the seed that Figgy needed to go asap and I think he's got David, Hannah, and Adam very much on his side (he had Jess too, but we all saw how that went). To me, all that does not signify a weak, do-nothing player who doesn't deserve to sit at final tribal.

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5 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

Marvelous? Oh, yes indeed!  Now, just tell us how to make them bow. If you can do that, I will go along with almost anything! Bravo! Bravo!

I'm not sure who you're referring to, senators or Muslims, and I don't get the "make them bow," at all.  ???

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32 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

That's why I compared it to bigotry against Muslims.  Thinking that all Christians hate gays is like thinking that all Muslims are terrorists.  I'm a Christian and my pastor is a lesbian. 

But we don't know that Zeke thinks that. We only know that Zeke didn't want to work with Michelle, and that Michelle says she was misquoted when she said he said it was because of her religion. Even if she's just saying that now, that doesn't mean Zeke does not realize that different Christians feel differently, or that that was really his real reason. Michelle was obviously very open about her faith and we don't know what comments she made (aside from Marco Polo having dragons).  I don't know that I would assume Zeke questioned anyone, including Michelle, about their faith. Or possibly Zeke made poor assumptions about Michelle because of the dragon story or... well, all sorts of things.

There are people who are devout Christians that I love to work with and those who are devout Christians that I would prefer to avoid like the plague given a choice. I've never had to ask them a question about their faith. They've volunteered plenty to me on their own. That doesn't mean I have anything against Christians, but against certain Christians and the way they interpret and act upon their faith. If you aren't very careful in how you phrase that, though, people get "You hate Christians." Heck, some people probably still do get that no matter what I say. :P I don't hate them, but I prefer not to be around them.

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2 minutes ago, simplyme said:

I don't hate them, but I prefer not to be around them.

What would you think of someone who said, "I don't hate gays, but I prefer not to be around them?" 

I don't know it, just seems so very sweeping to me.  There have been so many Christians on Survivor who are so different from each other, from Rob and Amber to this season's Will and Michelle.   People have so many facets, I wouldn't think I couldn't get along with someone based on who they do or don't have sex with, to me that's a very small part of their identity and nothing that would effect my relationship with them at all.  My very best friend had an affair last year, and although I thought it was wrong it didn't change my opinion of her as one of the nicest people I've ever known.  By the same token, she's not a Christian and can't understand "what I get out of it."  Neither thing has any bearing on how much fun we have when we're together.

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5 hours ago, mojoween said:

One thing that I found amusing was Jay saying his back was literally against the wall and then he shimmied against the rock he was leaning on.  I mean it was a rock and not a wall but I appreciate he knew he was basically using it correctly.

LOL, I homeschool my kids, so they don't hear as much slang/modern speak as other kids. They have a couple neighbor friends that play over here almost every day, however, and they constantly overuse "literally". I'm always talking to my children about it, showing how that's not the correct usage, etc. So when we were watching, my 8-year-old yelled at Jay about his use of the word. I told him, "Well, that's actually pretty darn close. I wouldn't call foul on that." 

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8 hours ago, MadRat said:

My thought is that Will felt that Jessica was going to flip and he didn't want to flip too and keep it a tie. I certainly thought Jessica was going to flip.

He could've flipped when they had to come to a unanimous decision.

5 hours ago, vibeology said:

If you're Will or Brett and you flip Zeke is gone and that alliance is all still there and you are still at the bottom. If Hannah had gone home, Zeke still wants to get rid of David and if David is somehow immune next Tribal there is still Ken or Jessica that can be picked off. 

Your first point is true and I can see Brett and Will's thinking there. But on the second point, I'm not so sure that Zeke would still want David gone/that he would actually go after David first. Zeke was going on and on about what a threat David was and how he had to go and yet he quickly switched the vote to Hannah simply because she 'didn't have [his] best interests at heart.' And he admitted at TC that he flips on alliances all the time. Honestly everyone should've wanted Zeke out because he's both a threat to win the game and a terrible/untrustworthy alliance member. But Brett and Will (ETA: Oh, and Sunday lol.) seem to be players that like/need a stronger/more aggressive player to lead them through the game, so in that sense I get why they didn't flip. 

4 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

Possibly but, if anyone else was considering flipping, Hannah and Zeke were only campaigning to her and nobody else which seems like a pretty good indication that Jessica was the one who wasn't sure what to do.  Maybe others were considering flipping but she was the only one who actually said anything out loud about it or seemed the least bit conflicted.

Hannah and Zeke could've been campaigning to everyone and everyone could have been considering flipping, but since Jessica ended up being the unlucky black rock recipient the editors chose to focus on her waffling. But Will and Brett came off quite aggressively steadfast and arrogant about voting off Hannah, so Jessica probably was indeed the most obviously considering flipping.

Edited by peachmangosteen
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5 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

He could've flipped when they had to come to a unanimous decision.

But at that point - after a second vote - would that be enough, or does unanimous mean unanimous? After two tied votes, it's a discussion and they need to reach a unanimous decision or go to rocks, so if then, say, Will said 'look, I honestly don't care, Zeke should go', could Bret and Sunday have stood firm and forced rocks? There's speculating that Jessica should have flipped but as I understand it, if she was going to, it should have been before the second vote because after that just HER flipping isn't enough? 

(I'm wondering out loud more than anything - in this case both sides were holding pretty firm but could one player theoretically force rocks even though everyone else had agreed on a vote out?)

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21 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

Caleb died? Are you kidding? I hope you are joking.

Caleb was on a season of Big Brother and he was a great guy. I was hoping to see him back on Survivor again.

Please say it ain't so that he died. Please?

Here is a link to Wikipedia that makes it look like he is still alive:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=caleb+big+brother&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=DJ83WOSOIOy4jwSu0qCYCw

Sorry to have scared you.  I referred to Coulton's boyfriend on the Blood and Water season

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