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S06.E09: Changelings


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I'm still shocked the show never had Emma connect the dots between Belle's situation with baby Gideon and Snow's situation with baby Emma. The show always seems to frame it so that Snow and Charming are more at fault for giving up Emma or that they somehow didn't try hard enough to keep Emma around, and Regina doesn't get the majority of the blame, yet they wrote a nearly identical situation with Belle, Gideon, and Rumple in this episode.

Belle was so terrified of what an angry Rumple might do with his powerful magic to Gideon that she was willing to immediately give up her baby and send Gideon to a better place with the belief that they'd be reunited again once the situation became better. Snow was so terrified of what an angry Regina might do with her powerful magic to Emma that she was willing to immediately give up her baby and send Emma to a better place with the belief that they'd be reunited again once the situation became better. How is it that we're supposed to view Rumple as the villain in Belle's scenario, but Emma doesn't recognize that what Regina did is the exact same thing Rumple is doing to Belle? Or is this the exact thing the writers would point out to prove that Rumple shouldn't be seen as entirely a villain?

What the show wants me to believe is that Gideon might grow up with a miserable childhood because Blue will ditch him as a baby because she wants to go off and explore Asia. Gideon will bounce around foster homes for a while until he feels the need to run away from his terrible situation. As a teenager he'll fall in love with a girl, but she'll frame him for a crime he didn't commit and he'll be sent to prison. Gideon will never see her again, but she'll secretly drop their baby off (she gave birth while he was in prison and he didn't even know) at his doorstep one day and he'll be given the choice to raise the baby by himself (even though he just got out of prison and doesn't have a job), or give the baby to a family who will hopefully love it. Unbeknownst to Gideon, Rumple will secretly adopt Gideon's baby and will raise his grandchild as if it's his own child, and Rumple will teach Gideon's child dark magic in Storybrooke. Gideon will eventually be contacted by this child ten years later and the child will beg Gideon to come back to Storybrooke because he's convinced Rumple hates him and the child doesn't like learning about dark magic. Gideon travels to Storybrooke, befriends a friendly woman named Robin, they kiss and begin to have feelings for each other, but Rumple doesn't like that his son has feelings for Zelena's daughter, and so Rumple kills Robin. Five seasons later, no one will connect the obvious dots that Rumple killed Robin, and Gideon and Rumple will be best friends even though Rumple hides this secret from his son every day. In fact, Gideon will share a closer bond with Rumple than he will with Belle.

TS;TW.

Edited by Curio
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16 minutes ago, Curio said:

How is it that we're supposed to view Rumple as the villain in Belle's scenario, but Emma doesn't recognize that what Regina did is the exact same thing Rumple is doing to Belle? Or is this the exact thing the writers would point out to prove that Rumple shouldn't be seen as entirely a villain?

That's what I'm afraid of. Rumple already accused Belle of abandoning their child (I wanted to reach into the screen and slap Rumple when he said that). When Belle finds out that the Evil Queen set him up, she's going to feel so guilty about what she did. The fact that Rumple was terrorizing her until like an hour earlier will never be brought up. The writing may well frame it as Belle taking an irreversible step based on wrong reasons, and ignore the fear she's been under for days/weeks now. The other thing is, it's never turned out well in this Show when mothers give up their children to give them a better chance. They're always accused of abandoning them. Why will it be different with Gideon? 

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This is a prime example of the writers not utilizing the character pairings to their fullest potentials. As much as I love Emma and Hook together (and they really haven't gotten much time together this season), I don't think it was the best choice to pair them with Belle this episode. When you're crafting a story about Emma witnessing a woman giving up her child because she was afraid of someone who has magic, you should pair Emma up with Snow and have Snow/Emma be the ones who coach Belle through the birth. And then there could have been a chat between the three women about their similar scenarios. But yeah...that would require pointing out Rumple and Regina's flaws more so they couldn't dwell on those character beats and they forced Emma to regurgitate stuff about the Savior prophecy instead.

Edited by Curio
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My fear is that "Gideon" will turn out to have been a scam (someone else who wants the spawn of the Dark One and who was posing as the projection of the unborn child) and not really her unborn child telling her what she had to do, and between that and the discovery that it was the Evil Queen and not Rumple who accelerated the pregnancy, Belle will be the one apologizing to Rumple and acting like she was in the wrong for taking his child away from him and not believing in him enough.

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The Gideon we've seen exists so far only in Belle's dreams. It could be that he is just a manifestation of what Belle doesn't want to face up to. He "tells" Belle what to do but what he is telling her is really thoughts floating around in the back of her mind that she doesn't want to take responsibility for. It is easier to believe her son came to her in her dreams to tell her what to do than to own her decisions. Just like it is easier for her to believe that Rumple can change if he just tries harder rather than accept that this is who he fundamentally is an he is utterly unable to be the person she wants him to be.

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1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

My fear is that "Gideon" will turn out to have been a scam (someone else who wants the spawn of the Dark One and who was posing as the projection of the unborn child) and not really her unborn child telling her what she had to do, and between that and the discovery that it was the Evil Queen and not Rumple who accelerated the pregnancy, Belle will be the one apologizing to Rumple and acting like she was in the wrong for taking his child away from him and not believing in him enough.

This is actually what I'm expecting to happen.  The only thing that makes me not sure Morpheus/Gideon is a fake Gideon is that Morpheus/Gideon TLK'd Belle awake earlier in the season.

But the Belle apologizing to Rumple for taking the baby away and not believing in him?  I'm still sort of expecting that.

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33 minutes ago, Mari said:

The only thing that makes me not sure Morpheus/Gideon is a fake Gideon is that Morpheus/Gideon TLK'd Belle awake earlier in the season.

My guess is that that Morpheus/Gideon was real, but the one that appeared to her this time and practically told her to send him away was a fake, using what she'd experienced before with the real one to make her believe it.

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Well when Belle told him she loved him, he told her he knew. I know that people answer that, especially children, but considering the separation that was coming, I'd think that his reply would have been I love you instead of I know.

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I don't know. The writers have never been subtle with shady characters. (Arthur for example.) But, then again, they could change their minds later and say, "Oops! We totally didn't plan that to be Gideon. It was the Black Fairy all along!" like they did with Zarian. If Gideon is shady in the canon, Blue may as well be too.

I'm still waiting for Blue to ask the Black Fairy to protect the baby as a favor. 

Edited by KingOfHearts
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5 hours ago, Camera One said:

Mitch's scenario would actually make Agrabah relevant.  I mean, they haven't even bothered to create a personal connection.  Is Jasmine's father missing?  Is that why she's so intent on finding Agrabah? 

...She's the princess, she's responsible for the whole kingdom.

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The OUAT Facebook page posted the scene with Regina's speech to Zelena with the caption "That's what heroes do." Ugh. Some people see how hypocritical the scene was, while others think it was deserved because Zelena is just too evil. Just... I can't. When was the last time I was so offended by this show?

And no, I don't think Robin grief is an excuse. In 6x01 it was, because that was like a few days after the funeral, but here? Regina hasn't mentioned Robin once since the premiere. It really seemed like the decision to never forgive her sister was premeditated. She's had weeks to think about it. Zelena did nothing in that scene to anger her or remind her of Robin. She had nothing to have a knee-jerk reaction to.

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Any Golden Queen scene?

Golden Queen grosses me out but it doesn't really make me feel angry. (Well, except for the fact it broke up my Hyde Queen.)

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Was she more powerful than Rumple? He had to use squid ink to restrain her, then she grabbed his throat like it was nothing. He seemed kind of intimidated by her. Rumple made a point earlier in the episode that because he had all the powers of the Dark Ones, the squid ink wouldn't hold him for very long. The Black Fairy said a similar thing about herself. We saw back in 1x04, that the squid ink worked for quite a while on Rumple then.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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13 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Was she more powerful than Rumple? He had to use squid ink to restrain her, then she grabbed his throat like it was nothing. He seemed kind of intimidated by her. Rumple made a point earlier in the episode that because he had all the powers of the Dark Ones, the squid ink wouldn't hold him for very long. The Black Fairy said a similar thing about herself. We saw back in 1x04, that the squid ink worked for quite a while on Rumple then.

And I can't tell you how happy it makes me when any woman, evil or not, throws Mr. Misogyny around! I loved it when she grabbed his throat and just kind of said "F you" and was gone! Last season Emma bossed him around in a couple of scenes, etc. I even liked the EQ just pouring salt into his wounds last episode.  Why or why couldn't we have gotten the Black Fairy this arc instead of Retread Queen?

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Jasmine doesn't seem all that emotionally invested in saving her kingdom. She can't shut up about it, but at the same time she doesn't seem to be missing any family or loved ones. Her quest seems to be royal duty over love for Agrabah. The most she's felt is mild stress. She's more like a princess robot than an actual human. At least in 6x05 she had her father to save.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Jasmine is as insipid as they come. She also seems to like hearing herself talk-complain and use her whiny voice. I can't even say that it's the actress because she was Isabelle and she kicked ass while belting out songs. 

So thanks a lot A&E.

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To top it off, Aladdin has shed ZERO light on Savior-itis.  It is the penultimate episode, and Emma has not discovered anything new.  In fact,  Jasmine/Aladdin made things worse... if he hadn't given Emma those Shears, Rumple wouldn't have tried to get his hands on them.  

What else is nowhere close to a solution?  The Evil Queen problem.  None of the "heroes" even tried to hurt her in this episode.

Zelena and Regina?  Still fighting.

Hook has no arc, Henry has no arc, Snowing is half on ice.

The only plot movement on any arc was Belle giving birth to the baby and sending him away, which is not permanent any way, so who cares.

Edited by Camera One
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I know we've complained in past arcs about how the guest characters took over the show (Frozen), but the Aladdin and Jasmine stuff would have worked a lot better if they'd developed it a bit more. As it is, all we know of their entire relationship is her telling him he has to be the Savior to save her father (and, yeah, the kingdom, too), him waffling and then declaring victory after Jafar leaves, then her hinting for him to stay, him saying he has work to do and offering to show her the world, and then her choosing to stay home. That's not laying a lot of groundwork to build up to him choosing to become a genie so she could make a wish to save Agrabah. I can accept that we're possibly eventually going to get more about his Savior woes that led to him using the shears and maybe even more about Agrabah's fate, if they ever get around to bringing on Jafar. But the stuff they're currently doing in the present needed a lot more setup and development. Is Aladdin doing this out of guilt for failing Agrabah? Is he in love with Jasmine? How did she fail Agrabah to begin with? It's hard to care too much when we have no idea what's going on with them, and we haven't seen enough to explain their current behavior.

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1 hour ago, RadioGirl27 said:

It's pretty obvious that Jasmine and Aladdin were a last minute addition, probably "suggested" to A&E, and they don't know what to do with them.

The fact they were never used until now and shoehorned in just shows they were a last ditch effort to generate buzz. Merida came earlier and she had a more coherent story... that's really sad.

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I know we've complained in past arcs about how the guest characters took over the show (Frozen)

It's something we always worry about, but the distracting guest characters sometimes end up being better than the main plot. Frozen and the Queens of Darkness were both entertaining to me. During their arcs, it was the Storybrooke stuff that was crap. But on the flip side, there's Merida and Jaladdin. So it could go either way. The benefit of having a side franchise arc is that it's usually a shorter story with a satisfying conclusion. The risk is if it's bad, it's going to really tank because no one cares about it due to the lack of main character involvement.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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18 hours ago, Camera One said:

After the horrible business with Gaston in the Underworld, why would Belle even want to name her son after the main character in "My Handsome Hero"? 

I kept thinking Gideon was the main character in "My Handsome Hero", but I never heard her actually say it was. Where did I miss that?

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1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

I kept thinking Gideon was the main character in "My Handsome Hero", but I never heard her actually say it was. Where did I miss that?

He is the main character, she reads a line to the baby in this episode. 

"But Gideon was unafraid. He drew his sword and turned to face the evil Sorcerer, ready to save the people he loved."

Edited by YaddaYadda
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25 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

He is the main character, she reads a line to the baby in this episode. 

"But Gideon was unafraid. He drew his sword and turned to face the evil Sorcerer, ready to save the people he loved."

Okay, thank you. I didn't even hear that line but for some reason I still understood where the name came from.

Also, I love how the villain in the book is an "evil Sorcerer". When Belle had the chance to become Rumple's maid, was she thinking, "Yes! I can finally act out my book! This'll be better than cosplaying!!"

Edited by KingOfHearts
Because using "play" twice in a sentence is uncouth
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On 11/27/2016 at 8:14 PM, Shanna Marie said:

It was really hard to watch the Belle and Rumple stuff. Every time they show her discovering yet another awful thing he's done in a flashback, it makes her look even dumber for marrying him. She knew he tortured people, and now we know she knew he was willing to take a baby away from its parents for selfish reasons. And yet she was convinced that he had a good heart?

Me watching this episode

Dark Queen: Why do you hate fairies so much?

Me: Oh fuck, now I'm going to have to endure flashbacks about why Rumple hates fairies so much.

Flashback: Rumple gives Belle a baby he's stolen

Me: Are you fucking kidding me, Belle? You knew he stole babies and you still married him? God, this 'romance' is even worse than I thought.

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it is very obvious that the writers mean for Rumbelle to get back together once she realizes that the EQ was the one who sped up the pregnancy. I'm disgusted. I guess both Belle and we are supposed to forget the fact that he was terrorizing her and controlling her until that point. Classic abuse. 

If it is, it would be truly appalling. Truly. Appalling. 

Also Rumple calls Hook the 'Saviour's Lapdog'. Fuck you, Gold. Stay away from my Killian.

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Every time someone on this show says "hero," I find myself thinking "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Only Regina could deliver a melodramatic speech about how she only saved her sister's life because she's a hero now but would NEVER FORGIVE HER for [insert current crime here]. Six seasons in and this woman has the self-awareness of a two-year-old.

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Ah, the episode that turned even the Regina fans against her. I don't know if the writers realized how closely they repeated the pattern of what went on with Regina, Daniel and Snow with the Regina, Robin, and Zelena story -- Regina's lover is killed, she blames a person who is only indirectly and tangentially responsible and never acknowledges the role she played in putting her lover in the situation that led to his death. Normally, when you repeat a pattern like that, it's to show that the character has grown and changed -- for instance, Rumple wrongs Hook again and he doesn't go on a vengeance spree, Arthur wrongs Hook and instead of looking for vengeance, he helps him and works with him. But Regina reacts in pretty much the same way in round two, focusing her ire on a person who isn't really responsible. I guess she's grown in that she just makes self-righteous speeches rather than trying to destroy Zelena's life, but she still hasn't learned anything about forgiveness and putting blame where it belongs instead of looking for a scapegoat who's easier to attack than the real culprit.

They also repeated a pattern with Belle having to give up her newborn in much the same way that Snow did and Emma did, even repeating some of the same language, but it comes across as more like the writers are stuck in a rut and have keyboard macros for often-used phrases like "give him his best chance" than any awareness that they're repeating the pattern. Otherwise, they should have had Emma (or Snow) talk to Belle in the aftermath, or have Emma bring up her own feelings and memories to Hook. She's experienced being the one given up and what it was like to not know why she was given away as well as being the one to have to give up a child. You'd think she'd be really affected by what Belle felt she had to do.

Not that what Belle did makes that much sense to me. I don't really get the whole concern about Rumple using the shears on the baby and cutting away his destiny to hate him. For one thing, hating a parent isn't a destiny or fate thing. It's the result of knowing your parent is a jerk. No matter what Rumple does mystically, if he keeps being an ass, his kid is going to end up hating him. I guess this baby hates Rumple from the womb, so he'd never take to his father, no matter how good Rumple was and by severing his fate Rumple at least has a chance, but how is that such a horrible outcome that Belle is willing to send away her newborn infant rather than let it happen? They never really convinced me that this feared outcome was so dire that there was no choice. There are a lot of other things she could have feared Rumple would do. I noticed when I re-read the thread that I had a theory at the time that the Dream Gideon talking to her during labor was actually someone manipulating her into giving the baby away, not actually Gideon.

Spoiler

But I don't think that turned out to be the case. The Black Fairy wasn't doing anything to make Belle send the baby to where she could get her hands on him.

Also, while it's all very "you go, girl!" in this episode when Belle finally shows a lick of sense and stands up to Rumple, acknowledging everything he did to her, it's sort of sour upon rewatch to hear that litany of horrors and know that she went back to him and they had a "happy ending" together in the afterlife -- after abandoning their son while he was still a young man.

Violent, destructive temper tantrums when a man doesn't get his way are a pretty big red flag, too.

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(edited)

I've wiped the Season 6 episode order from my mind, so it's always a surprise on Friday to see which episode is "next" and they seriously get worse and worse.  Granted, I probably hate rewatching Rumbelle episodes the most, in light of what the "relationship" had become.

Where they took the Regina/Zelena story was the most uninteresting and annoying.  Yet again, they were all poor Zelena is being unfairly treated, so I didn't feel much for her (plus making her out to be stupid to trust/team up with The Evil Queen in the first place).  But Regina's blame was annoying as well.  Rumple suddenly needing The Evil Queen to kill Zelena was random as usual.  There were so many other more subtle routes he or The Evil Queen could have taken to get Zelena out of the picture such that no one would even miss that she was gone.

21 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

They also repeated a pattern with Belle having to give up her newborn in much the same way that Snow did and Emma did, even repeating some of the same language, but it comes across as more like the writers are stuck in a rut and have keyboard macros for often-used phrases like "give him his best chance" than any awareness that they're repeating the pattern.

That's a good point.  I hadn't thought of it that way.  What an awesome callback to Season 1, A&E.  Except this time, Belle's "sacrifice" as you said was hardly necessary so it was hard to care or feel anything.  It's funny that the Writers thought they were writing aka self-plagiarizing this big emotional climax when most of us couldn't care less.

Spoiler

And seriously, for the entire rest of the season, I couldn't buy the pain or sadness of Belle and Rumple dealing with a son whose childhood they missed.

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Otherwise, they should have had Emma (or Snow) talk to Belle in the aftermath, or have Emma bring up her own feelings and memories to Hook.

You'd think she'd be really affected by what Belle felt she had to do.

Snow is very busy you know in her major part in the epic Jasmine/Aladdin storyline and Emma tried to kill Zelena at one point so she's really just as bad as Rumple.

Belle has been so isolated from the other characters (the exception being Hook) that I really don't buy that she's true friends with any of them.  She's more like an acquaintance.  Like the wife of that jerk neighbor you hate who occasionally says hi to you when her husband isn't there.

Thoughts knowing the whole backstory:

Spoiler

You raised a good point that we now know The Black Fairy never intended to steal Rumbelle's baby before this plot made it so convenient to her.  This makes her villainy even more of a joke.

In light of the big Fiona story at the end of the season, I'm still confused by Blue getting Belle to go save Jack and Jill's baby.  Why didn't Blue confront The Black Fairy herself? 

Oh well, I suppose it's just funnier to think she couldn't care less if Belle died.  

Edited by Camera One
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The Black Fairy's actions in this one make so little sense given what we later learn about her that at first I was thinking they must not have decided she was Rumple's mother until later, so I was surprised to find that this was the episode where they revealed it.

One silly thing that really caught my attention during the rewatch: In one of the scenes at the diner, in the background there's a waitress at the counter, like she's picking up an order that's ready, and she's wearing flats but standing on tip-toes -- but she stays there through the whole scene, and every time they show her, she's still standing on her toes. They must have felt she needed to be taller to fit properly in the frame. I felt sorry for the actress, having to stand on her toes and more or less freeze in the background for the entire scene. It looked so unnatural and uncomfortable.

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(edited)
23 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

In one of the scenes at the diner, in the background there's a waitress at the counter, like she's picking up an order that's ready, and she's wearing flats but standing on tip-toes -- but she stays there through the whole scene, and every time they show her, she's still standing on her toes. They must have felt she needed to be taller to fit properly in the frame. I felt sorry for the actress, having to stand on her toes and more or less freeze in the background for the entire scene. It looked so unnatural and uncomfortable.

I was able to capture the audio for the conversation the waitress was having with the cook at the pickup counter.

* Belle drops the cup of tea *

WAITRESS: I heard a tea cup drop, but I'm not turning around immediately because that psycho Rumplestiltskin's wife is sitting there.  What happened?

LINE COOK: I think Rumple's wife dropped the tea cup.  Should we go over there to check if she's okay?

WAITRESS:  Uh, there's no way in the Underworld I'm getting anywhere close to someone who's living with Rumplestiltskin.  I mean, why do you think no one ever borrows a book from the town library?  The Princess and the Pea was just eating lunch here and she said she went into the library by accident and the crazy lady was walking around tangled in red yarn having a conversation with herself.

LINE COOK: It seems like something might be wrong with her baby?  Should we call an ambulance?

WAITRESS: No, we should probably follow the example of The Savior and the pirate and just stand in place looking shocked.  Plus this is good practice for the Pretend Your Motion Has Been Frozen By A Villain's Spell drill that Granny runs every week.

Edited by Camera One
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I didnt really realize that we found out that the Black Fairy was Rumples mom quite so soon! I guess even they assumed that we would all guess she was related to some main character at least. Speaking of, uggggg Black Fairy. Her actions, when we see her whole plan later, makes very little sense, and as an endgame villain, she aint exactly Thanos. Lord knows Jaimie Murray is trying to do something to make her interesting, but its just not happening even with all her build up here.

As others have pointed out, there are so many parallels that are made in this show basically accidentally, or just haphazardly, without any real thought into what it means to the characters or use it to reevaluate how things happened previously. I mean, the Hades/Robin/Zelena story is basically Snow/Daniel/Regina 2.0, except that Snow had even LESS to feel bad about than Zelena, and all Regina seemed to learn is "I guess I shouldn't murder her, but fuck her anyway" while being all high and mighty and self important saying that she will never forgive Zelena. Granted, I think I would struggle forgiving her too, but for different reasons, but coming from Regina of all people, a woman who spent god knows how many years gleefully raping and murdering her way across a country and ruling as a bloody tyrant, it comes across as amazingly hypocritical. Like I said, I would have a problem with forgiving her too, but thats because she killed tons of people, including poor Marian, raped someone, and keeps shaking up with villains than expecting people to be cool with her immediately after wards, but Regina doesent care about that, its just about Robin, the one thing that really wasnt even Zelenas fault to begin with. 

Its the same with Belle giving up Gideon. Its set up very similar to Snow and Charming giving up Emma, but the show eventually started acting like THEY were at fault somehow, or that Emma has the right to be pissed at them for "abandoning" her, even if all of that was 100% Regina's fault, and we all know how much giving her up hurt them and what they went through. Charming almost DIED and ended up in a coma for almost 30 years to get her to safety. But with Belle, its all totally not her fault? Yeah she is lucky enough to have enough time to give the kid to Blue which is at least better than a tree, but that was their only option, as far as they knew. Also, is the phrase "To give them/you/me my best chance" so common that its repeated by so many random people from totally different times and places? I've never heard it except for on this show. The sentiment sure, but not that super specific wording. 

These stupid freaking Savior shakes/visions. How exactly does this help the Savior do Savior stuff exactly? Who the hell makes these rules anyway? Can I write to the Saviors Council and complain to someone?!

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