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Tara Ariano

S03.E07: Ladies Who Lust

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Erica Jong gave Liza's intro @ the event!  Feels exactly right -- she practically invented the modern-day ChickSmutLit, thanks to Fear of Flying

But -- ugh -- there's better SmutLit in the Buffy/Giles fanfic emporium, then what Liza read/Charles blushed at.  Wish the writers had had more fun with it.

One of the best parts of the show right now -- for me, at least -- is the Liza/Kelsey friendship.  This is upping the ante for the truth-telling fallout.

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Kelsey was the genius of this episode! I just knew that when Old Guy's ego could no longer stand not getting credit (how did he think THAT was gonna go!?!?), that he was going to take Millenial/Empirical down with him. When Kelsey jumped up and screamed, "I am Aubrey Alexis!", I thought that was the best move ever!

I hope that NDA clause goes both ways. Charles' eagerness to hold on to Old Guy at all costs may have blinded him to this possibility of the author himself spilling the beans.

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7 hours ago, rallymantis said:

But -- ugh -- there's better SmutLit in the Buffy/Giles fanfic emporium, then what Liza read/Charles blushed at.  Wish the writers had had more fun with it.

I was thinking that, too, and then I remember who the real Aubrey Alexis was, and the lameness was apt. I like to think that's what they were embarrassed about, not its explicitness per se.

That lameness is what makes it hard for me to believe that it speaks so deeply to someone like Lauren, but on the other hand, she's self-absorbed and -important enough that it probably does hit a chord for her.

I'm really disappointed Charles's new girlfriend is jealous of Liza. Ugh.

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Who knew that Dan Conner would become an successful author?  I bet Darlene is pissed!

I knew I had seen Charles' gf somewhere before.  It was Blood and Oil with Don Johnson that got cancelled unfortunately.  I've had a crush on Don since Miami Vice and he still looks good.

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1 hour ago, Trace said:

Who knew that Dan Conner would become an successful author?  I bet Darlene is pissed!

I knew I had seen Charles' gf somewhere before.  It was Blood and Oil with Don Johnson that got cancelled unfortunately.  I've had a crush on Don since Miami Vice and he still looks good.

It's not Dan Conner - It's Richard Masur.  He's one of those "Hey It's That Guy!" guys:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0557956/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

I kind of get why Charles' girlfriend is a little jealous but then not really. She's stunning and accomplished and he seems to be into her. If Liza was particularly flirty with him it might make sense but she's fairly nervous and awkward around him. 

I did kind of laugh at the rather normal crowd considering Goop was supposed to be there. Or the idea that even if she hadn't had the vagina steaming incident she would actually do a book reading. 

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Ah, I stand corrected. I still watch Roseanne reruns and sure thought it was Dan made up to look like George R.R. Martin.  But I can definitely see Richard now :)

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12 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I kind of get why Charles' girlfriend is a little jealous but then not really. She's stunning and accomplished and he seems to be into her. If Liza was particularly flirty with him it might make sense but she's fairly nervous and awkward around him. 

She sees the attraction between them, but Charles has given her no reason to be jealous, so she shouldn't be. Ugh. Such a tired, dumb trope.

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44 minutes ago, Trace said:

Ah, I stand corrected. I still watch Roseanne reruns and sure thought it was Dan made up to look like George R.R. Martin.  But I can definitely see Richard now :)

I thought for sure it was Col. Mustard from the movie Clue - I only knew the guy's real name because I was convinced it was Col Mustard. 

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3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I was thinking that, too, and then I remember who the real Aubrey Alexis was, and the lameness was apt. I like to think that's what they were embarrassed about, not its explicitness per se.

I wasn't clear.  I didn't think Charles was squirming because of the language of the book, but because a woman he has a thing for was reading it aloud.  If *he'd* been reading it, I'd've squirmed, too.

And who could blame him for the reax to Gwyneth's vaginal incident.  Though I assume that's been got from real life.  Ugh.

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She sees the attraction between them, but Charles has given her no reason to be jealous, so she shouldn't be. Ugh. Such a tired, dumb trope.

Especially since she's going from being slightly jealous to being openly hostile.  It's just kind of dumb.  I feel like she's being set up to be the "bitch" that gets in the way of twoo wuv.

I was a little confused about Maggie's plot.  Did she and the girl break up?  Did they just scale the relationship back?  I was with Maggie at least in terms of all the women bursting into the bathroom.  I don't care how close they are.  Boundaries are needed.   

And someone should tell Kelsey that leather hot pants are not appropriate work wear. 

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47 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Did she and the girl break up?

They broke up. The woman and her friends are basically a package deal, and Maggie wasn't up for constant togetherness. They parted on good terms, though.

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Charles' girlfriend really is starting to annoy the hell out of me, which I guess is the point. So tired of her saying things like, "you again", "why is Liza here?" 

If I was Charles I would tell her she is my employee and an integral part of the company now STFU!

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Charles' girlfriend really is starting to annoy the hell out of me, which I guess is the point. So tired of her saying things like, "you again", "why is Liza here?" 

It's really obnoxious.  They work together!  It's totally legit for Liza to attend the same work-related events as Charles.  I feel like this is headed to a repeat of last season where she finds out that Liza is actually 40, and another stand off ensues.   

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They broke up. The woman and her friends are basically a package deal, and Maggie wasn't up for constant togetherness. They parted on good terms, though.

 

Gotcha.  It just all seemed so sudden that I didn't quite understand what was going on. 

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3 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

It's really obnoxious.  They work together!  It's totally legit for Liza to attend the same work-related events as Charles.  I feel like this is headed to a repeat of last season where she finds out that Liza is actually 40, and another stand off ensues.   

And when Charles ran into Liza at the opera, she was with Josh, so there was no reason for the girlfriend to get jealous there. Ugh. So tiresome. It's almost insulting that they made the girlfriend so accomplished in her own right. She's really threatened by someone she thinks is a 26-year-old assistant?

I really think the show needs to make the big reveal this season. Let it be the cliffhanger, but reveal it once and for all.

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On 11/10/2016 at 8:07 AM, TVForever said:

Kelsey was the genius of this episode! I just knew that when Old Guy's ego could no longer stand not getting credit (how did he think THAT was gonna go!?!?), that he was going to take Millenial/Empirical down with him. When Kelsey jumped up and screamed, "I am Aubrey Alexis!", I thought that was the best move ever!

I hope that NDA clause goes both ways. Charles' eagerness to hold on to Old Guy at all costs may have blinded him to this possibility of the author himself spilling the beans.

Excellent points. I would have liked to see kelsey get more recognition for saving the day. And I definitely hope there's a two-way NDA in effect so they can legally tell that author to shut up. 

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On 11/10/2016 at 11:47 AM, dubbel zout said:

She sees the attraction between them, but Charles has given her no reason to be jealous, so she shouldn't be. Ugh. Such a tired, dumb trope.

I think I get why she's jealous. He hasn't actually done anything but his attraction to her is obvious. He praises her (rightfully so) for her ideas. For instance, he praised her for being a good  sport at the event. But it would have been better if we had seen him praising both Liza and Kelsey. It looks like it's always him and Liza. And technically Liza is Diane's assistant so I can see how it would seem odd for her to be so involved. The publishing industry is different in that regard that assistant roles often lead to something else. She fetches coffee but she also might bring in an author. Charles' New Lady friend might find their interaction to be odd, in addition to detecting his attraction. 

On 11/10/2016 at 11:47 AM, dubbel zout said:

She sees the attraction between them, but Charles has given her no reason to be jealous, so she shouldn't be. Ugh. Such a tired, dumb trope.

I think the attraction plus the fact that they're always interacting, even more so than the others, is more than enough reason for her to be jealous. 

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I don't see Josh's issue with Liza having had "only" three partners. She seems open-minded and happy. So why sleep with someone else? To up her number because he feels it's too low? I dislike Josh a little  more each episode. 

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On 11/11/2016 at 10:12 AM, dubbel zout said:

And when Charles ran into Liza at the opera, she was with Josh, so there was no reason for the girlfriend to get jealous there. Ugh. So tiresome. It's almost insulting that they made the girlfriend so accomplished in her own right. She's really threatened by someone she thinks is a 26-year-old assistant?

I really think the show needs to make the big reveal this season. Let it be the cliffhanger, but reveal it once and for all.

I guess my understanding of the jealousy is an unpopular opinion here.  The woman really likes Charles and it's obvious Charles really likes Liza. If the man you're into is into someone else, it doesn't matter how sophisticated you are and how young/un accomplished the other woman is. She feels threatened by a woman her new man seems to be into, a woman who seems to have more access to him than a lot of other people. Charles is intrigued by Liza, not by what he perceives is Liza's station in life. That new lady in his life is gorgeous and sophisticated but she's human and I get it. 

Edited by love2lovebadtv
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2 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

She feels threatened by a woman her new man seems to be into, who seems to have more access to him than the other staff members.

So either talk to Charles about it or break up with him. Don't keep making snippy comments and pointed looks.

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46 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

So either talk to Charles about it or break up with him. Don't keep making snippy comments and pointed looks.

I think she's trying to get to the bottom of it. Hopefully she'll start being mature about it instead of the snide remarks. It's entertaining for now. I do wonder, though, if Liza or Charles will actually say something. 

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3 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I don't see Josh's issue with Liza having had "only" three partners. She seems open-minded and happy. So why sleep with someone else? To up her number because he feels it's too low? I dislike Josh a little  more each episode. 

Josh is naive if he thinks giving his girlfriend permission to sleep with someone else "once" is a good idea.  Plus I didn't think he was that secure in his relationship with Liza to do such a thing.  Did he sleep with someone else and I forgot about it?  If so he could be trying to get over some guilt by evening things out.

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

So either talk to Charles about it or break up with him. Don't keep making snippy comments and pointed looks.

I don't think she feels close enough to Charles to do that yet or maybe ever.  She may not want to go down the road of being an openly jealous woman with him even if she might have good reason to call him on his obvious interest in Liza.  In my experience opening that can of worms is rarely positive for the relationship.  So she's trying to stake her ground with Liza to see if she gets the message to avoid him, which she can't of course because he's her boss.  And breaking up with him?  I can't blame her for not wanting to do that despite this!

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Josh is naive if he thinks giving his girlfriend permission to sleep with someone else "once" is a good idea. 

Not to mention that his logic in giving her "permission" is  pretty condescending.  She's 40.  Presumably if she felt she was missing something by not sleeping with a bunch more guys, she wouldn't be in a monogamous relationship with Josh. 

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5 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Not to mention that his logic in giving her "permission" is  pretty condescending.  She's 40.  Presumably if she felt she was missing something by not sleeping with a bunch more guys, she wouldn't be in a monogamous relationship with Josh. 

Yep, I fully expected she was going to be upset with this "permission slip." I was disappointed.

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Getting tired of this show. Josh/Lisa especially is a snoozefest. And really, no actual development and I'm getting second-hand embarrassment over their portrayal of GRR Martin expy.

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On 11/12/2016 at 9:52 AM, txhorns79 said:

Not to mention that his logic in giving her "permission" is  pretty condescending.  She's 40.  Presumably if she felt she was missing something by not sleeping with a bunch more guys, she wouldn't be in a monogamous relationship with Josh. 

I did NOT like this at all. Just like her mature friend Maggie, Liza makes her own choices about her sex life. If she wanted to sleep around, she would have. She seems to like having sex with the person she's with and committed to. I've never heard her express unhappiness about that, but it seems like Josh has a problem with it. So now I have a problem with Josh. 

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On 11/12/2016 at 9:52 AM, txhorns79 said:

Not to mention that his logic in giving her "permission" is  pretty condescending.  She's 40.  Presumably if she felt she was missing something by not sleeping with a bunch more guys, she wouldn't be in a monogamous relationship with Josh. 

Maybe the show is trying to bring out how far off the mark and immature Josh is for Liza.  If a guy did that with me I'd wonder if he was trying to tell me he secretly wanted to do the same thing himself.  Or I'd wonder if he was really as serious about me as I was about him.  I think the show might also be opening up a door for Liza to get closer to Charles thinking she has a "hall pass" from Josh to do so.

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9 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

I think the show might also be opening up a door for Liza to get closer to Charles thinking she has a "hall pass" from Josh to do so.

I hope Liza has a stronger character than that. I think Josh probably can't quite wrap his head around the fact that Liza has slept with so few men. It's none of his business, just as it's none of her business how many women he's slept with. It shouldn't be a thing between them.

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I can only half watch this show because I'm in a relationship with a much younger guy (and have been for years). I can't quite tell if the show is telling us the "age-appropriate" guy is end-game. It's unusual to see age-gap relationships on television treated as valid relationships--unless, of course, the older party is male. If it's a woman, she's expected to come to her senses eventually and go for the guy her own age. This show seemed like it was going to examine things a little more closely than "Cougar Town", and I've really enjoyed some parts of it, but I guess the audience is not supposed to be rooting for Josh? (I'm sincerely asking--I can't be objective about the show due to my own situation.)

And if the message is that a relationship with someone who is significantly younger than you is untenable--at least if you're a woman--why spend three seasons on it? 

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I don't think they are saying Josh is wrong for her, or at least that it's his age that makes him wrong for her.  What others see as condescending or problematic treatment of Liza by Josh regarding the permission slip, I see as his insecurity.  We've already seen Liza go through the phase where all her friends thought she was just into Josh for the "young" sex and just to sow some wild oats before she got on with her real life.  I think what we're seeing here is Josh going through it.  And he was pretty clear about expressing that he doesn't want to have any regrets come between them, but also that he really doesn't want her to stray.  But if something comes up and she wanted an "experience" he didn't want that moment--taken or not--to come between them.

I really like Josh, and I think the way they work through things means he could be a long-term relationship.  I like Charles too, but I think he's too hesitant and too dependent on what other people think to be good for the new Liza.  She's finally learning to be more assertive and to flout some conventions--emotionally he seems like a step backward, at least right now.  Appearances mean a lot to him.

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22 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I hope Liza has a stronger character than that. I think Josh probably can't quite wrap his head around the fact that Liza has slept with so few men. It's none of his business, just as it's none of her business how many women he's slept with. It shouldn't be a thing between them.

I didn't mean that she'd sleep with Charles, just see more of an opening to get closer to him at least in her mind/heart.  She was already shown signs of wanting to get closer to Charles even without the "pass".  The pass might make her feel more open to that plus not dedicate herself as much to Josh as in the past.  I wouldn't blame her after that, to be honest.

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On 11/16/2016 at 7:14 AM, Snarklepuss said:

I didn't mean that she'd sleep with Charles, just see more of an opening to get closer to him at least in her mind/heart. 

I'd hope that Liza wouldn't enter into even something of an emotional affair just because Josh gave her a "pass." Be with Josh or be with Charles—or be alone! They don't have an open relationship.

Charles is still Liza's boss, so Josh's "pass" or not, I don't want Charles and Liza together until that gets resolved.

Edited by dubbel zout · Reason: spelling
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The thought crossed my mind that Liza might end up using her hall pass to sleep with Charles, but then I decided against it because (1) he is still her boss and she KNOWS that it would be beyond inappropriate to sleep with him - and that's even before taking into account that she knows that Diana is interested in him (2) she likes and respects Charles too much to have a one night stand with him - if she slept with him, she wouldn't want it to be a fling.

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On 11/13/2016 at 7:38 AM, FurryFury said:

Getting tired of this show. Josh/Lisa especially is a snoozefest. And really, no actual development and I'm getting second-hand embarrassment over their portrayal of GRR Martin expy.

What does expy mean? 

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I think Liza and Charles are already having something close to an emotional affair, although not openly with either themselves or each other, judging from all the awkward moments and furtive glances they have shared.  And it started before the pass but I think the pass will give Liza more of an "excuse" to pursue that.  They almost had her spill the beans to Charles under the influence of morphine in this episode as it is.

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15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The thought crossed my mind that Liza might end up using her hall pass to sleep with Charles, but then I decided against it because (1) he is still her boss and she KNOWS that it would be beyond inappropriate to sleep with him - and that's even before taking into account that she knows that Diana is interested in him (2) she likes and respects Charles too much to have a one night stand with him - if she slept with him, she wouldn't want it to be a fling.

ITA but I somehow see the show as throwing them together in ways that are not even "their fault", such as Liza almost showing her hand to Charles because of the morphine.  Who knows what else the show will cook up to throw them together?  It looks like they're trying to make Diana "spoken for" plus I keep thinking they're going to find a way to make Charles stop being Liza's boss.  It almost happened twice already - Once when she left to work in the mall in Paramus and once when Bryce threatened to get rid of the "old people" at Empirical.  This show likes to flirt with scenarios so who knows what temporary scenario they will cook up to give both of them "license" to sleep together?

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I'm having trouble buying this whole Aubrey thing because they when they went over how they figured out that Moore wrote it, the book didn't sound that great. Neither did the excerpt Liza was reading. And I hate the implication that the best writer of female erotica is a man. There are so many shades of misogyny... the way Joss Whedon is lauded for writing female characters and being a feminist when women get no credit for those things. And just every other time a male writer is championed for understanding women better than women do. There's this thing in the culture where even with things designated "female" or "feminine" men are somehow held up as the experts from professional cooking to fashion design. 

The beginning of this episode was SO Sex and the City. Especially at the restaurant with Kelsey and Lauren and the bfs. The beats and delivery were exactly the same.

I wonder how many people got the "kosher butcher's daughter" joke. There's a place in NY called The Butcher's Daughter. Actually there are a few locations.

Leslie Kritzer!

This was one of the most dated episodes for me. I feel like we're past the age where we need to be scandalized and titillated. You can just be comfortable with yourself and enjoy sex. 

This New Yorker writer flirting with Kelsey... how many guys are they going to find who look sort of like Thad? Also, why send an email that's basically a text? That was kind of a letdown in the romance department.

I did enjoy Kelsey's quick thinking "I Am Spartacus" solution but overall this plot just seemed contrived. The book wasn't great to begin with and they should have known it would cause major problems with someone as erratic as Moore.

Maggie broke up with her girlfriend already?

I didn't get Radha's jealousy either. I got it before but this was basically a work event and they weren't being very flirty... just talking.

Diana's final outfit seemed like she was back to dressing "younger." I was into the leather and leopard though.

I'm meh on Josh's insecurities right now. It could be an interesting thing to pursue but I feel like they're not committing to it enough to make it much of anything... besides leaving the door open for breaking them up again.

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I can only half watch this show because I'm in a relationship with a much younger guy (and have been for years). I can't quite tell if the show is telling us the "age-appropriate" guy is end-game. It's unusual to see age-gap relationships on television treated as valid relationships--unless, of course, the older party is male. If it's a woman, she's expected to come to her senses eventually and go for the guy her own age. This show seemed like it was going to examine things a little more closely than "Cougar Town", and I've really enjoyed some parts of it, but I guess the audience is not supposed to be rooting for Josh? (I'm sincerely asking--I can't be objective about the show due to my own situation.)

And if the message is that a relationship with someone who is significantly younger than you is untenable--at least if you're a woman--why spend three seasons on it? 

It's hard to know exactly where this show is going. But I think that while it's not the norm for everyone, a big age difference has happened and it can work. And even if it doesn't last forever, neither does every relationship without a big age difference. Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher lasted 8 years. Lisa Bonet and Jason Momoa are still together after 8 years. And I know a regular couple with a big (10+ years) age difference as well. If you are cool with it, an age difference is not a deal breaker. I think the issue might be that they keep writing characters into these relationships who do find it a big deal. Which makes sense if you want to derive your drama from that but it might also be nice to just see a couple where there's an age difference and that's not commented on because that happens plenty in fictional relationships where the guy is the older one.

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13 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I'm having trouble buying this whole Aubrey thing because they when they went over how they figured out that Moore wrote it, the book didn't sound that great. Neither did the excerpt Liza was reading.

I give you Stephanie Meyer.  It doesn't have to be good erotica to be popular erotica.  And popular erotica can be horribly written, cliched erotica.

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The Fifty Shades trilogy proves that once and for all.

I would have to go back and check but I've already deleted the episodes from the DVR. I thought the implication was that people thought the book was well-written. That's what stuck in my craw. If it's just popular, fine. Though still, in this day and age, young women should not need lame erotica to unlock their sexuality. That's one difference. The popular concept of the Fifty Shades fan is a middle-aged housewife. And yeah, I still just resent the idea that Moore has written the perspective of a young woman SO well. Really, that garbage? Like, it's OK if you think it's hot but is anyone going around saying, wow, E.L. James really understands how to write the POV of a contemporary... college student? (I forget how old that character is supposed to be with them hiring actors who are way older. All those 25 and 30 year olds playing high school students has ruined my judgment.)

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Just catching up on this show. Where do we think they're going with Lauren and the doctor?

I thought of him as a Broadway guy but then I was bouncing around TV Tropes and realized to my shock that he was the lead of Outsourced. So... anything is possible. It could be something where they're just in the background like Lauren and Maggie were for a while. 

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12 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I thought the implication was that people thought the book was well-written. That's what stuck in my craw. If it's just popular, fine.

Lauren felt the book spoke to her on a profound level, but that doesn't necessarily mean the book is of high literary value.  Once Kelsey and Liza figured out who Aubrey really was, I think they thought less of it because of their experiences with him. Charles and Diana (I will never not chuckle typing that) were just happy it was a financial hit.

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Charles and Diana (I will never not chuckle typing that) were just happy it was a financial hit.

Oh my God, I can't believe I just saw that now. 

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On 11/11/2016 at 8:37 AM, Texasmom1970 said:

Charles' girlfriend really is starting to annoy the hell out of me, which I guess is the point. So tired of her saying things like, "you again", "why is Liza here?" 

If I was Charles I would tell her she is my employee and an integral part of the company now STFU!

Nope. Many women have a sixth sense about these things, and she's no dummy. She can tell. She's probably spotted the way they look at each other. 

This episode is as far as I've gotten on my binge, and as of right now I'm Team Josh/Team New Guy. Charles bores me silly and I see no spark between him and Liza.

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