S01.E05: The Alamo

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

The team gets stranded at the Battle of the Alamo, a pivotal event in the Texas Revolution. They learn about trust and sacrifice as they face insurmountable odds and no hope of rescue.

[MisterGlass]

I think this one backslid a bit.  Honestly, I wouldn’t have minded getting rid of Wyatt; I think the show wanted me to want him to stay.  I did like ‘How did you get fired? How do I get fired?’ and Jeff Kober as Davy Crockett.

I can’t believe it took half an hour to get back to Chekov’s grenades when they were the obvious answer.

[smiley13]

See, they do love Wyatt!  Thank you for standing up for your team member.  The show would not be the same without him.

[The Wild Sow]

Santa Anna actor -- way too OLD.

John Smith actor -- way too YOUNG.

Both were in their early 40s at the time.

Crockett was a hoot though!

[Arynm]

I loved it! Not sure if it was the overload of candy and whiskey, but this episode was really good for me. I liked how the team worked together to get the job done. Lucy did her own buckle for once, they did all they could to not change time.

I will admit that I don't know much about the Alamo other than Davy Crockett (king of the wild frontier) Bowie and everyone dies at the end.

[JackONeill]

I'm a sucker for anything Alamo. And I like Jeff Kober.

I wonder if TPTB knew some viewers were upset with Wyatt's inability to pull the trigger (pun intended) on what's his name. So they teased us. Yet, nothing is going to change. Hell, it looks like next week they get captured by him!!!

I'm not sure what the solution is, but it is getting old.

[officetemp]

9 minutes ago, MisterGlass said:

. . . I can’t believe it took half an hour to get back to Chekov’s grenades when they were the obvious answer.

Dialogue:  ". . . we need to enlarge the opening!"

Me:  "The grenades!  The grenades!!  The freaking grenades!!!"

[Shanna Marie]

I thought this one was the best so far. Wyatt was given some depth, they addressed the fact that they keep failing to kill Flynn, and the team is acting like a team. Also, they get bonus points for not making the Alamo look the way it does now, with that rounded top (that was added later). The river's not that far away, though, unless it's really changed course since then.

But they really need to work harder on cover stories so they aren't winging it. They have at least a little time when they're walking from where the ship lands.

1 minute ago, officetemp said:

Dialogue:  ". . . we need to enlarge the opening!"

Me:  "The grenades!  The grenades!!  The freaking grenades!!!"

Yeah, every hit of that pick, I was saying, "Grenades!"

Edited November 1, 2016 by Shanna Marie
remembered something

[benteen]

I loved this episode and it's my favorite to date (and the best one so far).  Very impressive with the Alamo and the battle.  Thought the actors playing Crockett and Bowie were great.

Wyatt is actually the one those in charge should remove, not for failing to kill Flynn but for the fact that he's the one who constantly wants to interfere with history.  He came through tonight but he's a trainwreck with his inability not to interfere.  But I'm glad he's still here of course.  Been a fan of Matt Lanter since The Clone Wars.

[vibeology]

So Garcia Flynn is definitely her Dad, right? Between Flynn's freakout when the women were trapped inside to mom's story and name on a folded piece of paper I don't see this going any other way. 

[Netfoot]

This show has descended into cartoon territory, WRT maintaining historical accuracy.  I mean, they mustn't change the past, but they take automatic pistols back into a time when every other firearm is a flintlock, and they carry a handful of modern grenades too.  Wyatt wants them to leave him so he can die at The Alamo, where his body can be found complete with automatic pistol strapped to his hip.  The vital letter doesn't get written, but instead of trying to recall at least the gist of it, the final consensus is "Write any old shit, because it really doesn't matter."

So, from now on, I'm not expecting them to even attempt to preserve the threads of our historical tapestry.  Next week, they will get Groves and Oppenheimer killed but it will be OK because Laurel and Hardy can take over the Manhattan Project, and Fat Man will sport a bowler hat!

ETA:  The British Tallboy will as well, but that's another story.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Netfoot

[KaveDweller]

I really liked this episode, more than the past couple (although I liked those too). Something about the drama attached to knowing everyone except the leads were about to die. It should have felt melodramatic, but it didn't.

I was sort of expecting that the guy who was supposed to take Wyatt's place was the friend who died in wherever he'd previously been stationed. And Wyatt would be surprised to learn that now the friend somehow survived. I keep hoping for more signs of other people's lives changing. Speaking of which....are we meant to believe that the Lucy who grew up without a sister never asked about who her father was? This seems like a conversation that would have come up before.

[LittleIggy]

I had no problem with the idea that there would be no Texas if... ;-p

Loved Davey Crocket.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

I had no problem with the idea that there would be no Texas if... ;-p

Loved Davey Crocket.

Near the beginning, one of the guest stars/H!ITG was on a rant that included fear of some "Yuge"1 number of Mexicans coming (to defend their land, IMO) which gave me a Trump PTSD attack.

1 Trump, 2016.

Agree on Davy Crocket, especially since most other sightings of that actor were very bad guys.

[bros402]

Decent episode, but I would've liked if Wyatt had been replaced - or if they had brought in the military guy as an alternate, as Wyatt is the most likely one among them to get injured.

[Dowel Jones]

I liked Rufus's "Viva Mexico" upon hearing that slavery had been outlawed there, and Lucy admonishing him "Don't say that too loudly here."  There are larger considerations....

So Flynn waltzes into the Mexican Army camp with a bag load of silver and a letter from Queen Isabella of Spain, and he expects Santa Anna to just roll over?  Uh, thanks for the bullion, good buddy, but we just kicked those fools out of our country not too long ago.  Hit the road.

[Tiger]

8 hours ago, vibeology said:

So Garcia Flynn is definitely her Dad, right? Between Flynn's freakout when the women were trapped inside to mom's story and name on a folded piece of paper I don't see this going any other way. 

Is Garcia Flynn is her father, they need to reveal it and then stick with it.  

I will not watch another (NBC) show where the lead female's father is teased for seasons and then keeps getting changed week after week in "the biggest twist ever!".

[JackONeill]

Now that I've thought about it:

So Wyatt has some trauma from his military past? Don't all military characters on TV shows? Not to diminish this in real life, but, really, is that the best the writers could come up with to give Wyatt a backstory. But to give the writers credit, it did do work with the Alamo story. So, net-net, I liked it more than not.

I grow weary of the whole who's-my-Daddy, yet in this episode there's no, "where is my sister?" BTW - what's the big deal as to who her father is, unless of course it's Flynn?

and this subplot with Rufus and Ritenhouse? What and why? It's become annoying. I guess, for me, I'm not sure of what the stakes are, what with Flynn, Ritenhouse, and, just generally, the immense problems with time travel.

Anothe thing: Do they know where they're going to "land" in the time machine? I mean Santa Anna's troops were spread out, and the land there is relatively flat. I mean, what are the odds of them landing without being spotted?

Another thing: People did flee the Alamo. But they all got killed. Santa Anna had his cavalry positioned to do that. Now, the in the first few weeks of the siege before all of Santa Anna's men got there, you probably could have gotten out. But not in the last few days. It was encircled and they were looking for people bugging out.

Edited November 1, 2016 by JackONeill

[sjohnson]

So far as the women and children escaping goes, fleeing through a pipe would save them from Santa Anna's cavalrymen....if there wasn't any water in it. The real thing is, the letter wasn't particularly essential to Texan independence. It was winning the battle of San Jacinto, something still not explained by military experts very well, that had rather more to do with it. Santa Anna was captured. As it turned out, an unruly frontier province was well worth his freedom. (And yes, Santa Anna was pretty much a dictatorial "president" along the lines of Porfirio Diaz in later years.) I couldn't remember if this was actually before his leg was amputated. As I understand it, he gave the leg its own burial. Which is apropos of nothing, yet seems like it should be noted.

I missed some of the dialogue after Lucy telling Rufus slavery was abolished in Mexico (something he was likely to have known, I think already I think.) One of the freedoms the American colonists treasured was the right to own slaves. Hope the dialogue with Rufus adverted to that. 

Lucy and Rufus, as civilians thrust repeatedly into different covert ops missions with Wyatt, are very believable when they emphasize their trust for him. They've needed him for their lives. Need of that intensity creates a sort of love. Children need their parents to survive too.

One thing about Wyatt's failures to kill Garcia Flynn in the past? What about everybody else's failures to kill Garcia Flynn in the present? Why don't these almighty bosses and superwarriors hunt down Flynn while he's planning his next attack on the past and blow him away in the here and now, before the history books get re-written? One man on a dual mission, to help save the past as well as kill Flynn, isn't doing too badly compared to their ongoing failure to find Flynn. a man even more elusive than Osama bin Laden despite his dragging around a two story  tall time machine!

The time machine basically being invisible, even though it's not, is pretty much like Stargate SG-1 always using walky talkies and the super advanced go'a'uld never detecting those useful messages sent *in the clear*. If the insanity of that is too much for your willing suspension of disbelief, then you'll just have to give up, I think. 

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

I can’t believe it took half an hour to get back to Chekov’s grenades when they were the obvious answer.

I know. A lot was going on, but it's not as if they grenades were used for an unusual purpose.

Lucy buckled herself in this time! Someone is reading these boards; heh.

The team does a bad job of why it never kills Flynn. This time worked better than others—"the Mexican army was there"—but if we aren't to roll our eyes every time the team is asked, someone needs an answer. I was thinking that Agent Christopher should go on a mission to see exactly what they're all up against. It's not quite as simple as dropping into a new time period and picking off Flynn.

Nice Castilian lisp, Goran!

[shapeshifter]

7 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

...One thing about Wyatt's failures to kill Garcia Flynn in the past? What about everybody else's failures to kill Garcia Flynn in the present? Why don't these almighty bosses and superwarriors hunt down Flynn while he's planning his next attack on the past and blow him away in the here and now, before the history books get re-written? One man on a dual mission, to help save the past as well as kill Flynn, isn't doing too badly compared to their ongoing failure to find Flynn. a man even more elusive than Osama bin Laden despite his dragging around a two story  tall time machine!... 

I agree with the rest of your post, but, playing the devil's advocate: Since the military probably didn't have the necessary inteligence (pun not intended, but it fits) or especially the opportunity for that to happen early on, (I think they didn't identify Flynn until he was already flying around in the time machine) I can see why they thought one experienced, decorated, sniper-capable guy could do it. And I'm guessing there was a rationale that the smaller the team, the more likely to prevent historical changes, and evidently Rufus is the only one who can fly the thing (which seems to be knowing to flick the red switch) so that's one of the three permitted. 

[AV8n]

The identity of Lucy's father is somehow relevant to the story, otherwise it wouldn't be a mystery. Flynn seems the most likely candidate, and he did mention to Santa Anna that he was a father. I had previously considered that maybe he was her son, since he supposedly received her journal in the future. I still haven't figured out how he got to the present day without his own time machine, though.

Another possibility is that Lucy's father is the head of the Rittenhouse group (and possibly its namesake). 

[Primetimer]

But let's explore some better holiday-themed historical events for our crew to visit.

View the full article

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, sjohnson said:

Why don't these almighty bosses and superwarriors hunt down Flynn while he's planning his next attack on the past and blow him away in the here and now, before the history books get re-written?

But does Flynn return to the present between each soirée into the past?  Or does he jump from event to event?

[JackONeill]

1 hour ago, AV8n said:

The identity of Lucy's father is somehow relevant to the story, otherwise it wouldn't be a mystery. Flynn seems the most likely candidate, and he did mention to Santa Anna that he was a father. I had previously considered that maybe he was her son, since he supposedly received her journal in the future. I still haven't figured out how he got to the present day without his own time machine, though.

Another possibility is that Lucy's father is the head of the Rittenhouse group (and possibly its namesake). 

I get that it's supposed to keep the viewers guessing, but a thing that sort of annoys me is that the group don't talk about these things. Okay, Wyatt wants to kill Flynn, but is it ONLY because he has been identified as the target? Is there, perhaps, another reason? Has the viewer been told more than just a little about Flynn-his background, his nationality, his purpose, his intent?

Who is actually in charge and what is the mission? Who are the Ritenhouse people, what is the bald guy and Rufus up to? Somehow it's connected to Ritenhouse, but how...and why? Who does Flynn work for? Who is the lady at the facility? She seems to have some authority but not enough to keep Flynn on the team (initially)? Yes, Rufus is the only person who can "drive" the time machine? Well, if the time machine is SO damned important, why hasn't someone else been taught? What happens if Rufus has a heart attack, or falls off a ladder and breaks his neck? That seems really shortsided on someone's part. Address it, people. Show someone else learning or something.

Can't we see people openly discussing these things? Okay, sure, maybe there are no immediate answers, but I'd think that as a true team, these things would be discussed. I mean, we have a few minutes at the beginning of the show and at the end in which we see one or more characters leading their own life. But what we don't see (as we did in Stargate SG1, for instance) the characters together in meetings and briefings when not on a mission. I mean, I would think someone would be analyzing the places Flynn has gone (and the changes if any it brought) and trying to figure out the big picture, or, at least, his next step. No, it's like they come in from home, go on a mission, come back, go home, and no one goes, "Gee, I wonder what that was all about?" (Sure, we see them sort of reviewing what's changed, if anything, but there's no discussion of the bigger picture.)

But then, as we know about the government, there is no such thing as planning.

Edited November 1, 2016 by JackONeill

[green]

12 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

I think this one backslid a bit.  Honestly, I wouldn’t have minded getting rid of Wyatt; I think the show wanted me to want him to stay.  I did like ‘How did you get fired? How do I get fired?’ and Jeff Kober as Davy Crockett.

I can’t believe it took half an hour to get back to Chekov’s grenades when they were the obvious answer.

Couldn't agree more with this post.  The grenades were obvious as soon as they had to make a hole through stone, doa'h. 

And the show did indeed try to want me to want Wyatt to stay.  But it did the opposite.  I detest his character even more now.  Giving him both a dead wife to feel guilty about because he somehow caused her death and now comrades he had to leave behind and thus survivor's guilt for obeying an order ... way too much fictional crap to swallow.  If he had gone through this stuff he would not be fit for active duty at this point let alone be chosen for the ultimate special ops mission of all (cough) "time".

Stop it.  Replace this way too young looking actor (a Master Sgt -- THE highest non-com rank in the army -- in special ops would usually be in their mid to late 30's) and get rid of this over-the-top, totally non-believable angst filled character named Wyatt.

 

12 hours ago, vibeology said:

So Garcia Flynn is definitely her Dad, right? Between Flynn's freakout when the women were trapped inside to mom's story and name on a folded piece of paper I don't see this going any other way. 

I don't know who started this theory but I still don't see it.  How can an eastern European operative from the CIA complete with an "accent" we are told this episode be a history (and likely an American history) professor at Lucy and her mother's college back when her mother was young? 

The history professor by definition would be older than Lucy's mother as a junior by probably 10 years at least which makes the dude really old now.  And since Flynn had to steal Mason and Anthony's time machine to travel in time to start with; the age we see him at now should be his real age.  He might possibly be Lucy's unknown older half brother but why does he have to be related to her at all?

2 hours ago, AV8n said:

The identity of Lucy's father is somehow relevant to the story, otherwise it wouldn't be a mystery. Flynn seems the most likely candidate, and he did mention to Santa Anna that he was a father. I had previously considered that maybe he was her son, since he supposedly received her journal in the future. I still haven't figured out how he got to the present day without his own time machine, though.

Another possibility is that Lucy's father is the head of the Rittenhouse group (and possibly its namesake). 

Yeah I was starting to think for a little while now along those lines.  And this episode ratcheted up this theory to my favorite right now.  If we believe Flynn, Rittenhouse and/or the Rittenhouse Group are seemingly the bad people and are the ones trying to "re-shape" history since Flynn keeps saying he is trying to fix or restore history.  And who would be most likely to want to re-shape history than an history professor who thinks he can do a better job with his version of history.

Also Anthony must have worked with this group or Rittenhouse himself to make this project happen originally.  And Anthony age-wise looks to be about the same age as the mysterious history professor.  Anthony could have been a professor of physics or something at the same time this history professor was getting his ideas about changing history and needing a time machine to do same.  Maybe they were colleagues together back in the day.  Not that science and history dept personal co-mingle much but if said history dude needed a scientist why not start at his own institution in his search for same and put out some feelers.  (Just a minor theory to attach to the major one but this one doesn't need to be true to make the one above to be true).

Edited November 1, 2016 by green

[dubbel zout]

36 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

But does Flynn return to the present between each soirée into the past?  Or does he jump from event to event?

He returned to the present in the Las Vegas episode, but that was to install the nuclear battery. We don't really know what he does otherwise.

I'd like to know where Flynn gets his costumes and money and all of that. Does he have a warehouse somewhere, too?

[Writing Wrongs]

The main character, Lucy, is so bland. I wish she was a little more charismatic or something.

[green]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

He returned to the present in the Las Vegas episode, but that was to install the nuclear battery. We don't really know what he does otherwise.

I'd like to know where Flynn gets his costumes and money and all of that. Does he have a warehouse somewhere, too?

Good one.  Maybe he has a lair somewhere like superheroes do.  A bat cave or something, hah.

But yeah who is funding Flynn's adventures?  Is there an Anti-Rittenhouse Group?

Also about stuff not explained why did they introduce the Homeland Security lady's boss this episode?  They could have just had her convey an order from above to Wyatt and not brought in the #2 guy at the agency physically into that scene. 

There are only 42 minutes approximately in an hour long episode so if they go out of their way to introduce a new character that didn't really need to enter the picture story wise in this episode I assume he will figure into the plot in the future now.  And since he has a slightly "bad guy" vibe (wants to break up team tho I'm on his side in getting rid of Wyatt, heh) maybe he is part of Rittenhouse too or being used by them at least so we will have a good cop / bad cop dynamic with the lady (forget her name right now but she has always had a "good" vibe since day one) and him squaring up against each other in the future.

[shapeshifter]

@JackONeill, I agree with your post (http://forums.previously.tv/topic/49761-s01e05-the-alamo/?do=findComment&comment=2703627). After this episode I was thinking that this show needs a character comparable to SG1's Carter.

[withanaich]

Nice of them to give Wyatt even MORE angst to work through. And by "nice" I mean "incredibly annoying and seriously, ENOUGH ALREADY." I was so hoping they would go the smart route and actually replace this guy. That would've been awesome, but no. And Rufus and Lucy standing up for him ... why, exactly? Oh, they trust him? He hasn't done anything anyone else with a gun couldn't do. He's a giant baby who wastes time and endangers lives on every single mission by stopping to whine about WHYYYYY can't we completely change history, IIIIIIII wanna be in charge why can't we do things MYYYYYY way! And if his backstory wasn't routine enough, now on top of the mysteriously dead wife (I bet she turns out to have been killed by an actual fridge), he has survivor's guilt and PTSD as well? What's next, his wife was pregnant when she died and he's also mourning the fetus he never told her he wanted?

Why didn't they just bring in Baumgartner to begin with? Or, you know, literally any dude with a gun. I can handwave the historical inaccuracies and forgive them drawing out the Rittenhouse mystery. I can even forgive the Lucy paternity nonsense. But this one terribly cast, terribly written character is really dragging this show down.

[basiltherat]

As Baumgartner said, the situation has gone FUBAR.

Flynn is Lucy's son and John Getz (dude who stopped Rufus last ep) is her dad.

[green]

1 hour ago, withanaich said:

Nice of them to give Wyatt even MORE angst to work through. And by "nice" I mean "incredibly annoying and seriously, ENOUGH ALREADY." I was so hoping they would go the smart route and actually replace this guy. That would've been awesome, but no. And Rufus and Lucy standing up for him ... why, exactly? Oh, they trust him? He hasn't done anything anyone else with a gun couldn't do. He's a giant baby who wastes time and endangers lives on every single mission by stopping to whine about WHYYYYY can't we completely change history, IIIIIIII wanna be in charge why can't we do things MYYYYYY way! And if his backstory wasn't routine enough, now on top of the mysteriously dead wife (I bet she turns out to have been killed by an actual fridge), he has survivor's guilt and PTSD as well? What's next, his wife was pregnant when she died and he's also mourning the fetus he never told her he wanted?

Why didn't they just bring in Baumgartner to begin with? Or, you know, literally any dude with a gun. I can handwave the historical inaccuracies and forgive them drawing out the Rittenhouse mystery. I can even forgive the Lucy paternity nonsense. But this one terribly cast, terribly written character is really dragging this show down.

Totally agree.  Special Ops personal have to be psychologically evaluated and this guy would so flunk. 

If they don't care much about messing up the timeline in a major way -- like they do every episode -- then I wish they had let him stay back at the Alamo like he wanted and brought back Crockett or Bowie cause I'd rather have one of those guys on my team than little whiny pants.

Actually I was joking above but wow I'd love to see someone from the past being brought aboard out of necessity.  Fish out of water and a fun ride with someone competent all at the same time.

Edited November 1, 2016 by green

[vibeology]

58 minutes ago, green said:

I don't know who started this theory but I still don't see it.  How can an eastern European operative from the CIA complete with an "accent" we are told this episode be a history (and likely an American history) professor at Lucy and her mother's college back when her mother was young? 

The history professor by definition would be older than Lucy's mother as a junior by probably 10 years at least which makes the dude really old now.  And since Flynn had to steal Mason and Anthony's time machine to travel in time to start with; the age we see him at now should be his real age.  He might possibly be Lucy's unknown older half brother but why does he have to be related to her at all?

I brought it up in this thread but I know I'm not the first person to suggest it. I guess I'm not really going to worry about ages when time travel is in the mix. I see no reason why Flynn can't have used the time machine or similar technology at some point in his recent past to go back in time and father Lucy. For him Lucy is both a small child in the past and this grown up woman in the present. I just felt that the way he was panicking to Santa Ana about the women being trapped in the Alamo and him being a father suggested that connection. Add to it the mystery in the present about her Dad that didn't get resolved (because why wouldn't Lucy immediately look at the name after pestering her mother about it for days or weeks or however long it has been?) and I think there's a very strong chance Flynn's name is the one on that piece of paper.

I'm open to it being other things. If her Dad is Rittenhouse, that could be very interesting too. Obviously he has to be someone or else it the show wouldn't be spending time on it. I just felt the build up here suggested that we're going to find out that the mystery guy is Flynn.

[JackONeill]

26 minutes ago, basiltherat said:

As Baumgartner said, the situation has gone FUBAR.

Another question: Why did this guy say that? Yes, I think everyone, viewers included, would agree that Wyatt has not killed Flynn. But WHY is it so important they stop Flynn?  Is he a Bond villain who wants world domination? He's not doing it for money, or is he? Sure, I can see why letting someone move around unfettered in the past could be a bad thing. But Flynn seems to know what he's doing. Yet, once again, at least to this viewer, it's not clear what he's up to. An dbecause of that, I don't really know what the good guys are up to. (But, having said that, is Rufus, because of his "deal" with Rittenhouse, a good guy or a bad guy??)

[green]

3 hours ago, PreviouslyTV said:

But let's explore some better holiday-themed historical events for our crew to visit.

View the full article

This article was just awesome in and of itself but add in the real history oddities you mentioned they could have used instead?  Nun biting epidemic?  Laughing outbreak?  Dancing in the streets to no music?  And they were all real events besides?  Really really cool finds.

And maybe we didn't get a Halloween-themed episode this week but next week it looks like we get an election themed one.

[zibnchy]

47 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

The main character, Lucy, is so bland. I wish she was a little more charismatic or something.

She's not really an actress who stands out, is she? They need an actress who is more of a Carter (SG-1). Even tho I often disliked Carter, at least she had presence. And she could shoot and she could take a hit and not collapse. Maybe the characters of Lucy and Wyatt should be combined into one teammate who is partnered with Malcolm Barrett (who is the one shining light in this mess)(I'm not suggesting that one teammate should be named Phil, but I won't be unhappy if he is.). BUT I'm guessing they need a soft, bland Lucy because we're going to find out she's Garcia's mother and the script calls for a type. Seriously, Carter would already have shot Garcia to death and forgotten about him. Also Lucy seems to get all her "extensive history knowledge" from daily briefings from Wikipedia and she just bothers me.

[Shanna Marie]

I actually like Wyatt. He's growing on me. I also like that they're twisting around some of the usual gender tropes, and it's the guy who's taking the emotional "but we can't stand by and let people die!" stance while the woman is all "history has to play out." It really would go against military instincts to not take action to save the people around him, even if he intellectually knows that these people are already dead, that they died long before his time.

Now, realistically, they probably should be training someone specifically for this kind of mission, since it would require going against the regular instincts. And the person assigned to this job probably should have been screened for PTSD/survivor's guilt. But I thought that his PTSD was portrayed in a very moving way. The actor sold it. At least, I found myself feeling for him.

[Latverian Diplomat]

They usually do a better job, through the Rufus character, of highlighting the racism of America's past, but this completely ignored those issue regarding the Alamo. 

One of the primary motivations of the Texas Rebellion was to ensure that slavery would still be permitted in Texas. While Mexico had banned slavery, Texas had a special dispensation allowing slavery to continue there, but it was at risk of being repealed. (So contra-Lucy, there were still slaves in Texas, one of the things the "invading" Mexican army was doing was freeing them). The sole survivor of the Alamo was Joe, a slave owned by Travis (the man Flynn killed). 

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/146405

Rufus bonding with (however folksy) former slave state senator Davy Crockett was also disappointing.

I realize that the Alamo has been so sanctified in the hearts and minds of many that an accurate take would be too controversial for a light entertainment vehicle just trying to survive in the ratings. Maybe just stay away from things like that, rather than reinforcing the myths?

[green]

I agree that had Mexico held on to Texas blacks there would have been free and escaping slaves in the deeper south (Louisiana and Mississippi say) would have had a nearer and easier refuge to reach.

Also without Texas in the union it wouldn't have dropped out of same and become part of the confederacy thus the confederates would have been a bit more weak from the get go which, if you want the US to remain like it is today, untied, would have been arguably a good thing.

And with the Texas territory being party of a larger, modern day Mexico the Mexicans might be embroiled in a debate to decide it they should build a wall around their border to prevent poor, illegal Americans flooding into their country.

Funny how history flows.

Edited November 1, 2016 by green

[withanaich]

Quote

But WHY is it so important they stop Flynn?  Is he a Bond villain who wants world domination? He's not doing it for money, or is he? Sure, I can see why letting someone move around unfettered in the past could be a bad thing. But Flynn seems to know what he's doing. Yet, once again, at least to this viewer, it's not clear what he's up to. An dbecause of that, I don't really know what the good guys are up to. (But, having said that, is Rufus, because of his "deal" with Rittenhouse, a good guy or a bad guy??)

They're interested in stopping him because he's not just going to the past to sightsee. He's going back specifically to change things, and even if you're not working for Rittenhouse, the results of that could be catastrophic for your own life. I think it's pretty clear that Rufus is (at least at this point) still a good guy. It seems like Mason might be as well, or at least wants Rufus to think so. He implied that he was also working for Rittenhouse only because they threatened him/his family. He might be lying about that, but we at least know what Rufus's intentions are. I just wish he'd tell the other two that he's working for Rittenhouse against his will. Then he could become some sort of double agent, only feeding them just enough information, but nothing useful.

Also, it might be a good idea to train someone else to operate the machine. I don't want anything to happen to Rufus (unlike a certain whiny time traveler I could name), but if it does, they're screwed.

[benteen]

Quote

Giving him both a dead wife to feel guilty about because he somehow caused her death and now comrades he had to leave behind and thus survivor's guilt for obeying an order ... way too much fictional crap to swallow.  If he had gone through this stuff he would not be fit for active duty at this point let alone be chosen for the ultimate special ops mission of all (cough) "time".

Wyatt is also the one who seems most hell bent on altering the past whenever the team time travels.  He shouldn't be allowed anywhere near these missions.

[DearEvette]

I hope sooner rather than later we get to understand Flynn's mission and by default understand why he's picking the time periods he is.  Why are these particular times/places so important and how does he figure whatever he does is going to have the real intended outcome.  You can change the past but that doesn't mean the future you want will automatically result.

[JackONeill]

Just now, DearEvette said:

I hope sooner rather than later we get to understand Flynn's mission and by default understand why he's picking the time periods he is.  Why are these particular times/places so important and how does he figure whatever he does is going to have the real intended outcome.  You can change the past but that doesn't mean the future you want will automatically result.

That's one of my biggest point/observation. I don't see anyone trying to make sense of why Fynnn is going where he's going, and I don't just mean the specific spot (ie, the Alamo) but why ALL the places. Is there a pattern? Is there a collective reason he's gone to the places he has? (I do get the trip to Las Vegas. That was to get the "fuel" to travel. SO, that may have been a one-off trip of necessity.) Or is it all just random (which I find hard to believe)? There's got to be a pattern. If there is, then maybe they can figure out where he'll go next before the last minute. And even if there isn't, why aren't people asking about it? This place would be run differently if Leroy Jethr oo Gibbs were in charge.

[iMonrey]

Well, the show is starting to get some of the little things right. Just last week I wondered why they hadn't fired Wyatt by now, and lo and behold, they fired him this week! And . . . if he's having PTSD flashbacks, doesn't that mean they should fire him? To drive home my point, did you guys get a good look at Bam Bam? Wowza! He looks way more like what I expect a special ops commando to look like. Way tougher, a foot taller than Wyatt, and much more rugged. Come back, Bam Bam! Come back!

Look, I know this show is on NBC, not HBO. I know there are forces at work that keep it from being as smart as it could be. I just wish it were about 10% more ambitious. It's too formulaic, too safe. Aside from wiping out her own sister and curing her mother's cancer, Lucy hasn't really done anything, nor have Rufus or Wyatt, or Flynn's team, that really changes history in any significant way. They change little things that keep the timeline essentially the same. I wish their trips in time had more impact on the show - imagine if every time they returned, they found their world just a little bit more different. If different people were working at Mason Industries every time they came back. If a different general was in charge of them every time they came back. It would give the show so much more urgency, wondering what's in store for them every time they come back from a mission. 

They need to change the nature of the missions too, and soon. They can't just keep reacting to whatever Flynn does and keep missing opportunities to kill him. A change in the timeline could very well force them to change the motivation, so they have to keep traveling in the past trying to fix whatever they've messed up.

Quote

I had no problem with the idea that there would be no Texas 

{small voice} I know, right? I mean, the whole "horror" premise here was, if Flynn succeeds, there'll be no Texas! And I'm like, and that would be bad why??? {/small voice}

Quote

But does Flynn return to the present between each soirée into the past?  Or does he jump from event to event?

Yes, they have established that he returns to the present day after each trip. Because each time he leaves the present, it triggers the alert that Lucy & Co. must go chase after him. Whether or not there's some compelling reason they have to return to the present day before trying another trip to the past is unclear. It may be that the time machine is simply designed that way - once you travel into the past, you can only hit the "return" button before trying it again.

[blackwing]

I enjoyed this episode, but I was kind of lost on what Flynn was trying to do.  He wanted Santa Anna to attack early, so the famous "Victory or Death" letter wouldn't be sent, and then Texas would never become part of the United States?  What longtime end purpose would that have served for him?

3 hours ago, green said:

I don't know who started this theory but I still don't see it.  How can an eastern European operative from the CIA complete with an "accent" we are told this episode be a history (and likely an American history) professor at Lucy and her mother's college back when her mother was young? 

The history professor by definition would be older than Lucy's mother as a junior by probably 10 years at least which makes the dude really old now.  And since Flynn had to steal Mason and Anthony's time machine to travel in time to start with; the age we see him at now should be his real age.  He might possibly be Lucy's unknown older half brother but why does he have to be related to her at all?

I don't know why people keep on insisting that Flynn is Eastern European.  I know that the actor is Croatian, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the character is Croatian.   On the contrary, the fact that they gave him a name like "Garcia Flynn", which combines a Hispanic name with an Irish surname, suggests that the character's ethnicity is ambiguous.  This show is set in a world in which time travel is a reality, so I have no issues accepting that he could be Lucy's father, son, or brother.

[zibnchy]

I just realized I don't know if the character's name is Garcia Flynn or Flynn Garcia and I'm too unmotivated to look it up. I just think that if viewers are not connected enough to learn the character's names then the show may well be doomed.

I want to know these things. Is he lucy's father or her son? I'm ruling out brother because my brain can't figure that one out AND I don't know that he'd have such a strong attachment to her if they weren't raised together. I'm going to guess he's her son.

I want more timeline changes. They don't have to be huge. They could be simple things. Fun things. Lucy arrives home to find that she has a dog now. (A dog could really completely fix this show. Remember Indy, the dog on Under the Dome? He was the only character I cared about at the end. Yes, I watch bad TV.)  The sister comes back! Wyatt arrives home to find that, in this reality, he's gay and married. (Hey Lucy found herself engaged to a complete stranger and somehow did not run screaming from the house they share.) Maybe real hoverboards have been invented and are so cool. Rufus meets up with his old friend, Phil, from Veridian (I want this very much.). Cubs win the 2016 WS. Stuff like that.

Edited November 1, 2016 by zibnchy

[meep.meep]

I don't watch this with much expectation.  What I think would be great (aside from a Lem and Phil reunion of course) would be if the two non-historians popped up with their knowledge of events gained not from history, but from the movies.  There've been two big movies about the Alamo, for example.    Book larning isn't the only way.

[Dowel Jones]

5 hours ago, JackONeill said:

Yes, Rufus is the only person who can "drive" the time machine?

Which brings to mind the question, if they kill Flynn in the past, how do they get both time machines back to the present?

The show continues to work on Rufus's "fish out of water" character.  I say let them go back to, say, Birmingham 1963, or Selma 1965.   Step back, Wyatt, let Rufus handle this one.

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

if they kill Flynn in the past, how do they get both time machines back to the present?

The machines are linked, so maybe some sort of overwrite can happen once no one is in control of the mothership.