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S02.E06: Episode 6


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I love Aunt Agatha. You know she'll hang on as long as possible just to spite George. If only Elizabeth weren't so helpless. I get she wasn't raised to be anything but a brood mare and eye candy, but sheesh. Show a little strength of character, lady.

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Can I just say . . .  Ross is such a jerk!  What was with putting Demelza's future & that of his child at terrible risk with that dopey scheme to help Elizabeth, and assuming Demelza could better tolerate hardship because she's a miner's daughter?  Ugh, I wanted to wring his neck!  Smug dopey jerk.

I never believed George had any romantic interest in Elizabeth.  He's so prissy I expect him to ask to borrow Elizabeth's dresses than ask her for a date.  Did he imply to the mean/horrible uncle he's gonna use her somehow to get back at Ross?  Juicy!

Sheesh, the men in this thing are so dumb.  The women all rule -- except for Elizabeth.  I have no use for her.  Back the heck off Ross, will ya, hun?  Seriously, if those 2 could bang with their eyes, that woulda been porn.

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Once they established that it was December, one could remember from the last episode that Caroline was legally able to handle her inheritance. The gift was telegraphed a thousand miles away long before the reveal. 

I doubt Ennis ends up with a happy ending. 

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3 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Can I just say . . .  Ross is such a jerk!  What was with putting Demelza's future & that of his child at terrible risk with that dopey scheme to help Elizabeth, and assuming Demelza could better tolerate hardship because she's a miner's daughter?  Ugh, I wanted to wring his neck!  Smug dopey jerk.

 

That annoyed me as well. Not because he did it, but because - unlike in the books - he did it before Caroline had bailed him out. 

In the book, Caroline anonymously helps Ross, and then Ross - now having a years breathing space - decides to help Elizabeth in a similar anonymous fashion.  So while he is still giving her monies that could ease things for his own family, he's not putting them in as dire straits as they would have been had Caroline not helped. 

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5 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Can I just say . . .  Ross is such a jerk!  What was with putting Demelza's future & that of his child at terrible risk with that dopey scheme to help Elizabeth, and assuming Demelza could better tolerate hardship because she's a miner's daughter?

Really!  What he should have been thinking is, Demelza has had enough hardship in her life, I don't ever want to see her have to struggle again.I'm glad he bought her the stockings and they had some sexy times, but mostly  I'd like him to put an end to that emotional affair he's been having with Elizabeth forever.

I thought it was a sort of dud episode until the fine recapper reminded me of some very nice moments. Uncle Warleggan's performance,  Caroline and Enni's passionate embrace, and Aunt Agatha and George's  muttered hate words. It's a shame they didn't have twitter.

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I've  had it with Ross.  He doesn't deserve Demelza - she's far too good for him.

He and Elizabeth would make a good pair - she's helpless and he's witless.  They'd probably starve to death in within a month.

One thing I wasn't clear on - did Demelza appeal to Caroline?  I know she mentioned Caroline when she was talking to Purdy.

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44 minutes ago, abbyzenn said:

did Demelza appeal to Caroline?

No. Caroline helped Ross on her own accord, likely with an eye toward scoring points with Dwight. I don't mean that as calculating as it might sound. I think Dwight has opened Caroline's eyes to the misfortunes of others and how lucky she is not to have to worry about things like eating oranges to prevent scurvy and getting in debt with usurious rates, and she's genuinely trying to help. But helping also means that Dwight looks upon her favorably, so it's win-win for Caroline.

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Quote

Can I just say . . .  Ross is such a jerk!  What was with putting Demelza's future & that of his child at terrible risk with that dopey scheme to help Elizabeth, and assuming Demelza could better tolerate hardship because she's a miner's daughter?

What immediately came to my mind is, so what if Demelza was a miner's daughter. She's still a woman with little recourse in life if something should happen to you and she was left penniless. And what about your toddler son? Could he tolerate hardship more than Elizabeth and Geoffrey Charles based upon Demelza being a miner's daughter? Huh?

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53 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

No. Caroline helped Ross on her own accord, likely with an eye toward scoring points with Dwight. I don't mean that as calculating as it might sound. I think Dwight has opened Caroline's eyes to the misfortunes of others and how lucky she is not to have to worry about things like eating oranges to prevent scurvy and getting in debt with usurious rates, and she's genuinely trying to help. But helping also means that Dwight looks upon her favorably, so it's win-win for Caroline.

Nobody knows that Caroline did this but the banker she arranged it with - so she is not "scoring points with Dwight".

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4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I thought it was a sort of dud episode until the fine recapper reminded me of some very nice moments. Uncle Warleggan's performance,  Caroline and Enni's passionate embrace, and Aunt Agatha and George's  muttered hate words. It's a shame they didn't have twitter.

I want a spin-off that just consists of George and Agatha being hostile to each other. 

I'm also pretty furious with Ross. I liked him in season 1, but he's such a dick this season that I'm actively rooting for George. 

Edited by Zella
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Wow, Ross is an asshole husband!  He sold Demelza and his son's future away for Elizabeth!  Wow, wow, wow.  Demelza got lucky that Caroline's heart grew three sizes.

The only solace I can take is if Ross had gone to prison and left Demelza and son to poverty, perhaps Elizabeth might have offered to take them in rather than let them starve as Ross was apparently capable of doing.  I hope Demelza is putting away more than just extra groceries - she is going to need it with a husband like Ross.

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Caroline's deal was done in secret, so there's no scoring points with anyone at the moment.  Ross being Dwight's friend is certainly a bonus for her if it ever does come to light down the road, but it's not really a prime motivator. Book Caroline develops what might be considered a platonic crush on Ross starting with his wrecking trial and then seeing how he comports himself compared to his wealthier counterparts.  She has money to play with and she's interested in seeing what he could accomplish if he wasn't being crushed under his debt or constant danger of debtor's prison.  The show seems to not be bothering with all of that.

Moving when Ross decides to help Elizabeth to before he's even out from under the gun himself only makes him look even worse.  In the book, I could sort of reluctantly understand where he was coming from as the now de facto head of the Poldark family and wanting to make sure Geoffrey Charles was provided for because at least the immediate pressure was off of him.   Here, he's just an obsessed ass who can dismiss his wife as oh well, she was poor before me.  She'll manage somehow.

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I couldn't agree more about Ross being a jerk.  I wish some rich guy would come along and steal Demelza away from him.  And then he and Elizabeth (the gentlewoman) could get together and be miserable.  I haven't read the books, and I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen, but I don't think they will ever be able to redeem Ross in my eyes. I can't stand him at this point.  I do love Dwight and Caroline.    

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2 hours ago, magdalene said:

Nobody knows that Caroline did this but the banker she arranged it with - so she is not "scoring points with Dwight".

It's not unreasonable to think that Dwight will hear about Ross's good fortune and wonder if Caroline had anything to do with it.

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I don't think Caroline was giving Ross the money to win points with Dwight. I think she just sees Ross as someone -- who, like herself -- is questioning the status quo of the society they're living in, even if their reasons for questioning it are not exactly the same. It doesn't hurt that Dwight is friends with Ross, but I think *that* relationship has only allowed Caroline to learn more about Ross as well as trust that he is worthy of her "investment," since Dwight admires him.

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Hey, was that a crap present jerky Ross got Demelza or what?  Seriously, dude . . . stockings?  Wow, that sucked, man.  Uncomfy for her & clearly for his pleasure ONLY.  Jerk, jerk, jerk.  Get jewelry from the jerk, Demelza.  At least you'll have something when he gives all his money away to useless Elizabeth.

I am really digging Caroline.  On the surface she seemed like an annoying, smug, shallow idiotic Paris Hilton.  And yet, we see she isn't.  I wanna see her & Dwight get together.  Back off, Rosina!  Stop giving him those I-want-you-now looks.

Edited by ScoobieDoobs
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22 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Caroline's deal was done in secret, so there's no scoring points with anyone at the moment.  Ross being Dwight's friend is certainly a bonus for her if it ever does come to light down the road, but it's not really a prime motivator. Book Caroline develops what might be considered a platonic crush on Ross starting with his wrecking trial and then seeing how he comports himself compared to his wealthier counterparts.  She has money to play with and she's interested in seeing what he could accomplish if he wasn't being crushed under his debt or constant danger of debtor's prison.  The show seems to not be bothering with all of that.

I don't at all get the pacing with this show. They rush and rush and have huge time jumps, yet skip lots of plot that would both increase the level of overall sense-making and make it easier to understand the choices the characters (...Ross) make. They refuse to allow breathing room to draw more complete characters, and in this last episode, when Caroline was saying how much she admired Ross, I was thinking, "But why?" We are constantly told that Ross is special and worth admiring, but I don't see much of that on the screen. He's handsome (thanks to Aidan Turner), sure, but he's also thoughtless of others, rash, rigid and self-righteous. In that sense he is perfectly matched to Elizabeth, who is pretty - and not much else.

And despite this "hit the highlights" approach to story-telling, I still feel like we're going in circles. When they did that very awkward exposition dump at the beginning in the mine, and we learned that in fact Francis had not found copper and their fortunes had not turned around, I said to myself "HERE WE GO AGAIN." Of course it didn't work out and they're back where they started, trying to escape debt and the clutches of the Warleggans. 

I can only hope that the last-minute rescue by Caroline allows them to advance to some plot business beyond the bust-and-bust cycle of Ross's attempts at mining. If the next episode has them back in financial straits, moaning about a mine that won't produce and subject to George's financial machinations, I won't be able to take it anymore. I get that mining is an unpredictable endeavor, but I don't need to feel like I'm experiencing that in real time.

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22 hours ago, SierraMist said:

I couldn't agree more about Ross being a jerk.  I wish some rich guy would come along and steal Demelza away from him.  And then he and Elizabeth (the gentlewoman) could get together and be miserable.  I haven't read the books, and I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen, but I don't think they will ever be able to redeem Ross in my eyes. I can't stand him at this point.  I do love Dwight and Caroline.    

It annoys me that Ross is carrying this ever-bright-and-burning torch for Elizabeth without once considering how horribly they would have gotten along if he had actually married her.  I do not see Elizabeth making it in the hovel Ross lives in, much less being happy there.  Yet that is all Ross has and has ever had to offer, so both he and Elizabeth are hooked on a fantasy of them together rather than what the reality of Elizabeth trying to cook with no food or money would actually be like.

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On 10/31/2016 at 2:01 AM, ScoobieDoobs said:

I never believed George had any romantic interest in Elizabeth.  He's so prissy I expect him to ask to borrow Elizabeth's dresses than ask her for a date.  Did he imply to the mean/horrible uncle he's gonna use her somehow to get back at Ross?  Juicy!

In one of the scenes, George looked like he was wearing more make up than Elizabeth, especially the blush which was NOT blended.

Quote

It annoys me that Ross is carrying this ever-bright-and-burning torch for Elizabeth without once considering how horribly they would have gotten along if he had actually married her.  I do not see Elizabeth making it in the hovel Ross lives in, much less being happy there.  Yet that is all Ross has and has ever had to offer, so both he and Elizabeth are hooked on a fantasy of them together rather than what the reality of Elizabeth trying to cook with no food or money would actually be like.

It reminds me of Gone With The Wind, (the film) where Scarlett was all, "Ashley, Ashley," but then when Melanie dies, she realizes that all of Ashley's strength came from Melanie and without her he wasn't all that.  The thing about Ross and Elizabeth is that their relationship never had the chance to properly burn itself out; so they've spent all this time thinking, "what if?"   Ross always has to be reminded that Demelza is a ride or die woman, deep down, he knows that but he can't get this fantasy of Elizabeth out of his head.

Edited by Neurochick
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Ahh finally found this thread. I was over in the masterpiece forum and no Poldark.

Anyway I have no hate on for Ross. He is a man of his times. Manly man and takes what he wants. In that world Demelza is "less than" so if he treats her like shit he is not held accountable. She's just a miners daughter after all. Not nobility. A nobody.

And as Neurochick explained---Ross and Elizabeth were interrupted in their relationship ---so to speak-- so they have a kind of unfinished romantic hankering going on. The "what if's" and "might have been" are like a sirens song.  and hey! I'm in this for the drama and there's no drama if every character behaves themselves! Besides I sense an affair coming on....

So...??? Everyone else seems to like the doctor and the rich blond heiress but to me they are kind of... boring...odd?

And if they get married how will that work? Someone said up thread that if Ross had married Elizabeth she would be living in his hovel -- cooking his food-- mucking out the stables and such and that is exactly what will happen to little rich girl. I just don't see that ending well.

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22 hours ago, skyways said:

lol you guys! Please don't froth at the mouth after the next episode.

I froth NOW!

You just take your romantic swelling violin concerto strings and shove them, show, with Ross and Demelza being all mutually aswoon after his lavish holiday gesture of . . . some fucking hosiery?!  He signed away his child's birthright and only possible source of security because he's carrying a torch for an old girlfriend!!!

And somehow he rationalized that if his wife ever found herself an impoverished broken down old workhorse, well, that's no worse a place than she would have wound up if not for him, anyway, innit?  And the little boy--don't give him another thought, Ross.  No doubt if Demelza had to whore for a penny to feed her child, you know she'd be up to the task.  Oh, she's a fighter, that one.  Here, have some stockings.

 

Let's slide them on and peel them right back off.  It's Christmas!  (And Elizabeth canceled, so . . . why not?)

 

From the comments, I understand how this doesn't accurately represent the situation in the source material, but since this is apparently the impression the show wishes to give me, then this is the response they get.

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4 hours ago, DHDancer said:

Actually Geoffrey Charles inherited Trenwith House, the ancestral home of the Poldarks.  So a marriage would join Nampara and Trenwith.

Only if Ross were free to marry Elizabeth, which he isn't - he could leave Demelza for Elizabeth, sure, if he really wanted to, but he can't divorce her and therefore can't remarry.

1 hour ago, taanja said:

And if they get married how will that work? Someone said up thread that if Ross had married Elizabeth she would be living in his hovel -- cooking his food-- mucking out the stables and such and that is exactly what will happen to little rich girl. I just don't see that ending well.

Caroline has a personal fortune of £6000, which she would bring to her marriage - more than enough to set her and Dwight up in a very smart household and ensure that neither of them ever had to live in a hovel (especially if he gave up his altruistic rural practice and took on actual paying clients in a good-sized town). By marrying him against her uncle's wishes, she would forfeit the fortune and estate said uncle is set to leave her, but she would not lose her own personal fortune.

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Just now, dubbel zout said:

Isn't that her yearly income?

I think £6000 is the capital, which was a considerable sum in the 1790s, and would have brought in a tidy amount of interest per year (but I may be wrong - someone else might remember better). It's only a fraction of what she'd stand to inherit from her uncle, but it's still a very tidy fortune to live on.

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14 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

And since she's now of age, I think she can marry whomever she wants.

Yeah, she is free to marry whomever she wants now that she is of age - but her uncle reserves the right to disinherit her if she marries against his express wishes! So in pursuing Dwight, she is choosing love over money. And while they would be comfortably off, with her personal fortune, she is nonetheless giving up a heck of a lot - vast fortune plus comfortable country estate.

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It's still a decent amount that would mean Caroline wouldn't come to a marriage penniless.  I can't remember if it's been specifically mentioned in the show but for comparison Dwight is only pulling 40 or so pounds a year by doctoring almost exclusively among the miners and the poor as he does, which I believe would be considered comfortably working class by the standards of the day.  Dwight could very easily make a much better living if he chose to be a society doctor to the upper class, as several characters repeatedly point out to him.

No, it's not much compared to the vast wealth and property she stands to inherit from her uncle if she doesn't defy him, but she's not in any danger of learning how to muck out stables if she does.

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7 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

It's still a decent amount that would mean Caroline wouldn't come to a marriage penniless.  I can't remember if it's been specifically mentioned in the show but for comparison Dwight is only pulling 40 or so pounds a year by doctoring almost exclusively among the miners and the poor as he does, which I believe would be considered comfortably working class by the standards of the day.  Dwight could very easily make a much better living if he chose to be a society doctor to the upper class, as several characters repeatedly point out to him.

And isn't it an initial plot point in the book that Dwight's original plan on returning to Cornwall after attending the Georgian equivalent of med school was to set up a respectable practice in Truro, where he'd have made a much better living. The reason he moves out to a more rural area in the first place is because Ross offers him the job of mine surgeon, which he accepts because a) it gets him started, and b) he's genuinely interested in studying diseases of the lung, which are common among miners, so it appeals to him on that count. But to take up the job, he can't live in Truro, as it's too far to commute daily, so he moves out to the Gatehouse at Mingoose (the neighbouring estate to Nampara) - but the mine surgeon job doesn't pay much, he finds himself extremely isolated in his new digs, and he struggles to find paying (upper class) clients in the district to supplement his income, because Dr Choake already has the area covered. And then he becomes genuinely invested in his working class patients, who can't afford to pay (although they give what they can), and that commitment prevents him from moving on to more fruitful pastures, so to speak. So the job offer from Ross ends up being a real mixed blessing, and changes his life completely from what he'd originally planned. It's a shame none of that character arc has been drawn out in the show.

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That sounds about right.  I just remember the 40 pound figure sticking out because if you read and discuss the Brontes or Austen or anything set in Georgian or Regency England, everything always circles back around to what each of the characters earn or are worth.  Jane Eyre 50 years after these books are set will be earning 30 pounds a year as a governess, for example.  The point being that Dwight is mostly poor by choice right now and has much greater earning potential if he were to set up shop in Truro or someplace like Bath.

Edited by nodorothyparker
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So that makes Caroline's 1400 pound bailout ENORMOUS!  Wow. 

Does Ross owe that money to Caroline now?  And are his mines producing a single bit of anything?  I don't recall his mines being the least bit productive or profitable and have no idea how he and Demelza (and child) haven't starved since the marriage, which is years and years old now.

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But c. 1800, were British women allowed to own their own money?  I know women in the US were not.

(Sidenote:  During The Gold Rush, there was this amazing phenomenon where a woman who went out west and did the miners' laundry or cooked, etc, discovered the money she earned belonged to her instead of her father or husband or nearest male relative.   When they got a chance to go home to the east, everyone was shocked that few women wanted to go back where life was more comfortable.)

 

Anyone know how the financial system would have worked for Caroline?

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1 hour ago, izabella said:

So that makes Caroline's 1400 pound bailout ENORMOUS!  Wow. 

Does Ross owe that money to Caroline now?  And are his mines producing a single bit of anything?  I don't recall his mines being the least bit productive or profitable and have no idea how he and Demelza (and child) haven't starved since the marriage, which is years and years old now.

Ross owes the money to Caroline but at a much fairer rate of interest to be paid annually. He's basically off the hook for another year. 

As for how he and Demelza are surviving, they still have the farm, and while it might not provide much actual cash, managed properly, they should be able to feed and clothe themselves. Hmm, perhaps Ross should be concentrating on farming, I'm sure there's plenty of crops need scything ?

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Most of what I know about this comes from lengthy discussions and reading about Jane Austen novels, so take that for what it's worth.  My understanding is that as her inheritance (from her own parents, I think) the money is indeed hers as she comes of age but would legally become Dwight's upon marriage.  It's a recurring theme in Austen novels of this same general era of fortune hunting men compromising or otherwise spiriting away young women of fortune (dowry) so they could legally claim the money for themselves.   From her uncle's standpoint, it's not really all that much of a stretch to think that's exactly what Dwight may be.

Ross still owes the money to Caroline and would be expected to at least pay the yearly interest on it, along with whatever terms he signed, for however long she's willing to carry the loan.  The idea is that he will eventually pay back the entire loan amount when his mining pays out.  

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1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

From her uncle's standpoint, it's not really all that much of a stretch to think that's exactly what Dwight may be.

Yes, you can't really fault Uncle for being suspicious of suitors.

Edited by candall
Delete! Delete!
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12 minutes ago, DHDancer said:

Missing a zero --- 6000 is her personal legacy that she would take into her marriage to Dwight.  She'd be losing the 40,000 inheritance from Uncle Ray etc.

Watched it again--you are so right.  I thought that whole scene was the uncle underselling the size of the inheritance by 90% to discourage Enys and then Enys not only didn't take the bait, he was happy.

There's so much plotting going on, even when it's not there, I still see it!

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I know this is not the comparing book to show thread but I just want to try to make Candall feel a little better about Ross' gift to Demelza. He had noticed that she wasn't wearing stockings lately and thought it might be because she had no garters to hold them up. He was worried she might be cold and bought garters to remedy that situation.  Ross was concerned for Demelza, honestly. 

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1 hour ago, Clawdette said:

I know this is not the comparing book to show thread but I just want to try to make Candall feel a little better about Ross' gift to Demelza. He had noticed that she wasn't wearing stockings lately and thought it might be because she had no garters to hold them up. He was worried she might be cold and bought garters to remedy that situation.  Ross was concerned for Demelza, honestly. 

Hee.  I was really mad!

Better now.  : )

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I thought the gift of stockings was very sweet.  It was a luxury she would never ask for herself and something they couldn't really afford.  And the scene was hot. (LOL)  On the other hand Ross came off as a first class jerk by giving the money to Elizabeth when his own wife and child were probably going to be living in dire poverty while he was in debtors' prison.  

How ironic it would be if the mine starts producing now that he owns Francis's shares too.

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22 hours ago, Llywela said:

Only if Ross were free to marry Elizabeth, which he isn't - he could leave Demelza for Elizabeth, sure, if he really wanted to, but he can't divorce her and therefore can't remarry.

Caroline has a personal fortune of £6000, which she would bring to her marriage - more than enough to set her and Dwight up in a very smart household and ensure that neither of them ever had to live in a hovel (especially if he gave up his altruistic rural practice and took on actual paying clients in a good-sized town). By marrying him against her uncle's wishes, she would forfeit the fortune and estate said uncle is set to leave her, but she would not lose her own personal fortune.

Dwight specifically said he would not move to a bigger town or take on richer clients. He made that clear. He doesn't come across as a man who will live off his wife's income.

*disclaimer: I haven't read the books and can't remember anything from the original series. I can only go by what the show is showing/telling me. And it seems to me Dwight is living in a bit of a hovel and isn't making much money right now. He also isn't inclined to move (per his own words) or take on well paying clients. Maybe next episode things will change but as it was left--- if Caroline marries Dwight (for love) she will be in the same position as Demelza is now and Elizabeth would have been had she married Ross-- cleaning messes and yes-- mucking out stables.

Edited by taanja
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41 minutes ago, taanja said:

Dwight specifically said he would not move to a bigger town or take on richer clients. He made that clear. He doesn't come across as a man who will live off his wife's income.

*disclaimer: I haven't read the books and can't remember anything from the original series. I can only go by what the show is showing/telling me. And it seems to me Dwight is living in a bit of a hovel and isn't making much money right now. He also isn't inclined to move (per his own words) or take on well paying clients. Maybe next episode things will change but as it was left--- if Caroline marries Dwight (for love) she will be in the same position as Demelza is now and Elizabeth would have been had she married Ross-- cleaning messes and yes-- mucking out stables.

Caroline brings with her a fortune of £6000 to any marriage she makes - that's how the law works, her husband gains control of her money automatically. In 1790 that is more than enough to ensure that she will never have to muck out stables or cook her own meals, even if Dwight doesn't want to move from the area. They wouldn't live in the luxury she does now, but they would be much, much better off than either Demelza or Elizabeth. Dwight might not be bringing much to the match (financially), but Caroline's money would support them both very comfortably. Dwight would not see a woman he loves living in penury if she doesn't have to, and she doesn't have to.

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