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Not sure this is an UO here, but it is other places: I wish Deja hadn't been introduced or at least didn't have such a heavy focus on her. I'm not interested in teen drama or angst in my prime time shows. 

Also, I'm not liking that every single traumatic event possible has affected this family. Well, I take that back, they haven't experienced any natural disasters yet, I guess that'll be season 5.

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1 hour ago, nixgirl28 said:

Also, I'm not liking that every single traumatic event possible has affected this family. Well, I take that back, they haven't experienced any natural disasters yet, I guess that'll be season 5.

Yes, well, some of them do live in California . . .

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1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, well, some of them do live in California . . .

TIU won't be able to have a fake earthquake that affects part of the state.  That would be too alternate universe.  Maybe an isolated landslide of someone's mansion?  They could incorporate the next inevitable wildfire in either northern or southern California, but that would be another TIU fire.

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On 10/30/2019 at 7:28 PM, izabella said:

That scene was 100% real, as far as I'm concerned. 

I didn't say the scene wasn't real.  My issue is asking a young actress who is 12-13 in real life to play that scene on television.  Fogelman has written several scenes for that actress that have focused on Rebecca making Kate very aware of her weight or Kate being very aware of her weight. I understand that happens in real life, but this is a story,  I'm troubled by continually asking a 12-13 year-old to play such scenes because those scenes have undertones to them that the actress might not be emotionally equipped to deal with or may cause her to have negative thoughts about her own body.  Teenage Kate and Chrissy are older actresses.  They have more of an understanding and level of maturity to deal with those scenes than someone who's 12-13.

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On 11/15/2019 at 2:16 PM, PRgal said:

I’m not sure if this is necessarily an “unpopular opinion,” but could Rebecca’s memory issues be related to mini strokes rather than dementia?  At her age, it isn’t unrealistic.  

That's what caused my cousin's dementia.  She was having lots of mini stokes. It's called Vascular dementia after it reaches a certain point. Later on, it seems to progress like other conditions that cause dementia, like Alzheimers. (Most people with it do have certain risk factors like obesity, hypertension, diabetes, etc.).  I don't think Rebecca has any of those, so,  I'll be curious to see how they handle this with Rebecca.  Right now, it appears to be at the point of Cognitive Decline, but, it may or may not progress.  We'll see if she gets a real evaluation or not.  If they go the Alzheimer's route, it's going to be sad, but, predictable.   And, I'm going to be very disappointed if they just portray dementia as someone losing their memory.  It's soooo much more. (Incontinence, loss of mobility, poor balance, sleep disorders, depression, etc.)

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1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

That's what caused my cousin's dementia.  She was having lots of mini stokes. It's called Vascular dementia after it reaches a certain point. Later on, it seems to progress like other conditions that cause dementia, like Alzheimers. (Most people with it do have certain risk factors like obesity, hypertension, diabetes, etc.).  I don't think Rebecca has any of those, so,  I'll be curious to see how they handle this with Rebecca.  Right now, it appears to be at the point of Cognitive Decline, but, it may or may not progress.  We'll see if she gets a real evaluation or not.  If they go the Alzheimer's route, it's going to be sad, but, predictable.   And, I'm going to be very disappointed if they just portray dementia as someone losing their memory.  It's soooo much more. (Incontinence, loss of mobility, poor balance, sleep disorders, depression, etc.)

My grandmother had that.  She was not obese nor did she have diabetes.  But she had a stressful life (husband issues since she was in her 30s plus immigration (came to Canada from Hong Kong in the 70s)), even if it was fairly privileged (she was always very well taken care of by my parents)).  She as in her 90s when she died though.  

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That is a good possibility of some type of brain tumor.  I wish the whole show wasn't watching her wander, you can drive the point home with less filler of that.

I must say watching it now, I loved how Nicky said Jack erased him. I said that back when it happened and you have to call it what it was to start to heal.

I knew the song would be a big part of it after googling the lyrics.

Edited by debraran
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On 10/30/2019 at 7:37 PM, Dani-Ellie said:

If I remember correctly, the reasoning was that the character of House wouldn't have taken the character of Cameron seriously as a blonde, hence the dye job. (Which, if you've seen House, is not outside the realm of possibility.) She was also a 23-year-old actress playing a doctor in her early 30s. At one of the fan events I attended, Jen mentioned that going by Cameron's CV, the year Cameron graduated medical school was the year Jennifer Morrison got out of junior high.

If I'm remembering it correctly, Jennifer Morrison auditioned for House submitting tapes of her as both a blonde and a brunette from two different roles. The EP thought it was two different actresses and wanted them both to audition.  My guess is that they went with the brunette hair because in the first 2 1/2 seasons her character was a love interest for House, played by Hugh Laurie who was 20 years older and looked every year of it and as a blonde she looked even younger. In the summer after season 3 she went back to blonde for a role and the producers told her to keep it in season 4, presumably to differentiate her from Olivia Wilde whose character took over Cameron's slot.

Morrison is a gorgeous woman in real life and I admire her for dying her hair a drab brown and going without makeup at an age (40) where most actresses glam themselves up to show they can still play young because it's better for the role to look battle-worn.

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8 hours ago, statsgirl said:

If I'm remembering it correctly, Jennifer Morrison auditioned for House submitting tapes of her as both a blonde and a brunette from two different roles. The EP thought it was two different actresses and wanted them both to audition.  My guess is that they went with the brunette hair because in the first 2 1/2 seasons her character was a love interest for House, played by Hugh Laurie who was 20 years older and looked every year of it and as a blonde she looked even younger. In the summer after season 3 she went back to blonde for a role and the producers told her to keep it in season 4, presumably to differentiate her from Olivia Wilde whose character took over Cameron's slot.

Morrison is a gorgeous woman in real life and I admire her for dying her hair a drab brown and going without makeup at an age (40) where most actresses glam themselves up to show they can still play young because it's better for the role to look battle-worn.

funny how in first episode she had deep lines and wrinkles and looked tattered, and by last episode she was in full makeup and looked 100% different--almost like saying Kevin couldhvt have possibly liked her in her original natural self. I agree she is very attractive, but they tried to make her look very unattractive in the first few episodes and then all of a sudden at the gym she looked so different.

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Now that Toby's being written as a Cross-fit fanatic, shouldn't he be...thinner?  Most of these die-hards get gaunt in the face, even if their bodies are quite muscular. Toby doesn't present anything like that to me.  They should have had the actor drop more weight.  Hey, if Mcconaughey could slim down that much for The Dallas Buyer's Club, why not?  It would sell the distance Kate is feeling a lot more if Toby looked the part of complete Cross-Fit maniac. 

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3 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

Now that Toby's being written as a Cross-fit fanatic, shouldn't he be...thinner?  Most of these die-hards get gaunt in the face, even if their bodies are quite muscular. Toby doesn't present anything like that to me.  They should have had the actor drop more weight.  Hey, if Mcconaughey could slim down that much for The Dallas Buyer's Club, why not?  It would sell the distance Kate is feeling a lot more if Toby looked the part of complete Cross-Fit maniac. 

Didn't Kate ask him how much weight he lost when he finally took his shirt off in front of Kate? Wasnt it 50lbs? Toby may not be 'ripped'.  I'd call him svelte.  It's only been a few months and Toby was by definition morbidly obese.  I'd say he's made great strides

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I agree that when Toby initially took his shirt off, he looked like he made great strides from morbid obesity. 

Wasn't that awhile ago though?  

Once you're at the point where you're brining your own food to Thanksgiving, you're in the zone (I've basically been there, but I draw the line at nut cheese).  If he's taking this as a religion,  I would expect steady positive results, not for him to look the way he did at the initial reveal. 

I believe in method acting.  Why not just have the actor do the workout and eat the diet of a cross-fitter while filming?  I guarantee he wouldn't still look like this:

9EA204BA-DAB1-49E1-BD35-2097BE95D3FF-14463-000007757146CAEC.thumb.png.5bb3fbb57a102179e7b8d6b3e15da85c.png

He'd probably look more like...

B0B03179-B42D-4B1D-A758-0A5C468EE301-14463-0000077932F41E56.jpg.4a476a78f06c13b8913ee30c58bda8f5.jpg

(the gaunt look in the face in the after picture is what Toby doesn't have, which is what inspired me to write my first post that I'm not quite buying what Toby is selling).  

Again, if Toby started looking thin, not just not fat, I as a viewer would have that visual punch in the face and I'd be like, "wow, Kate has nothing in common with her husband anymore," which is what I think the show is going for, which is why I think the actor playing Toby should have been pushed to do more work, not for the initial reveal, but now that the story has taken us to full-blown obession.

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2 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

Once you're at the point where you're brining your own food to Thanksgiving, you're in the zone (I've basically been there, but I draw the line at nut cheese).

The thing about nut cheese is that it has more calories per ounce than full-fat dairy cheese, and less protein. It's not a "diet food" in any way, it's just a plant-based alternative for people who can't or won't eat dairy. Toby did also mention tempeh, so it sounds like he may be eating 100% plant-based and taking it to the extreme. FWIW, I eat mostly plant-based as well, but I don't travel with coolers of specially prepared food, and in general I avoid processed food like tempeh or tofu. You can find a healthy meal almost anywhere if you keep it simple, and I'm sure there were enough staples at Randall and Beth's house for Toby to throw together a simple meal like a baked sweet potato with some canned black beans and mashed avocado.

2 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

(the gaunt look in the face in the after picture is what Toby doesn't have, which is what inspired me to write my first post that I'm not quite buying what Toby is selling).

The gaunt look comes from dehydration. People who pose for that kind of picture tend to eat extremely low-carb and take diuretics for days/weeks beforehand to achieve that look. Plus if Toby is eating a lot of nut cheese and other pseudo-healthy foods, his calorie intake is still very high. Weight loss is 90% dependent on diet. (One of the reasons I don't do CrossFit or other extreme forms of exercise is that they make me ravenous and I end up undoing any results by overeating. It works much better for me do 30-45 minutes of moderate exercise like Pilates or barre, which makes me less hungry and more mindful, thus leading to better food choices.)

Edited by chocolatine
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7 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

Again, if Toby started looking thin, not just not fat, I as a viewer would have that visual punch in the face and I'd be like, "wow, Kate has nothing in common with her husband anymore," which is what I think the show is going for,

I think Toby and Kate have a lot in common.  They share a history together, a similar sense of humor, and a love of big dramatic moments. The entire Pearson family has become part of Toby's life as well as Kate's, and most of all they share a child who is the single most important thing in both their lives.  All those things are so much more important than whether or not they have the same percentage of body fat. 

I doubt if Toby will ever look like that picture.  He will probably have some loose skin that will blur the outlines a little. 

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Weight loss is 90% dependent on diet. (One of the reasons I don't do CrossFit or other extreme forms of exercise is that they make me ravenous and I end up undoing any results by overeating. It works much better for me do 30-45 minutes of moderate exercise like Pilates or barre, which makes me less hungry and more mindful, thus leading to better food choices.)

That's such good advice.  Over doing it always causes me to stop losing because the stress of pushing myself too much makes me build up fluid. I maintained 110 lbs for about 20 years just with a daily routine at home of 20 minutes slow jump rope followed by ten minutes of calisthenics. I liked to get it done before getting ready for work.

I know it's all fiction, but I keep worrying about Toby's heart.

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Ok, I'm going to take one last sally at giving my unpopular opinion, noting everyone's objections to his physical state and responding:

I think that now that the writers have decided to go from one place "Toby had a heart attack and he's dieting and exercising to be healthy" to "obsession that is so encompassing that it could break up his marriage," Toby should look thinner/slimmer/leaner than he did at the initial reveal.

This is a visual example of what I'm talking about:

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That's a picture of Jordan Peterson, psychologist, biologist, author and lecturer, and he's not dehydrating in this picture.  He always looks like this.  I watch his lectures online and he drinks water throughout them all.

He lost just about 50 lbs by only eating steak.  

This is the type of "gaunt" look I would like to see from Toby if this is his storyline. Not that Toby has even been as fat as the show wants us to think--it's common knowledge he was wearing a fat suit--but I have seen many people who begin to look gaunt in the face at 200 and even 300 lbs if they used to weigh 600 (source:  My 600-lb Life), so maybe, ironically, it's hard for him to achieve that look because he was never as heavy as his character.  Maybe the actor would have to dehydrate to do his scenes, if that's what it took.  That's a whole other discussion I'd be willing to have.

 Al Roker had the same thing going on when he got gastric bypass surgery in '03--from his face, you'd think "this guy has to eat a sandwich, stat," but his body wasn't at all underweight. 

This is the major thrust of my point:  it would serve the storyline if Toby had managed to lose a significant amount of weight from the time of the reveal to the present and beyond. I think they should have had the actor work out super hard and eat super clean to the point where his physcial appearance is jarring.  

If the actor couldn't or didn't want to work that hard, the way Chrissy wouldn't/couldn't/didn't, then the story should go in a different direction--maybe Toby was lying about the gym and spending a lot of his time at the movies--which poses an entire new set of problems.  

He just doesn't present to me as a gym rat who has highly regimented eating.  He looks like a guy who takes decent care of himself, which isn't the storyline.  That's my unpopular opinion.

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41 minutes ago, LibertarianSlut said:

That's a picture of Jordan Peterson, psychologist, biologist, author and lecturer, and he's not dehydrating in this picture.  He always looks like this.  I watch his lectures online and he drinks water throughout them all.

He lost just about 50 lbs by only eating steak.  

Eating only steak is extremely unhealthy. There are thousands of studies that have shown that eating excessive amounts of red meat (and animal products in general) is harmful (and that the healthiest populations on the planet eat plant-centric diets). I wouldn't listen to anything this guy says, no matter what credentials he claims to have.

46 minutes ago, LibertarianSlut said:

This is the major thrust of my point:  it would serve the storyline if Toby had managed to lose a significant amount of weight from the time of the reveal to the present and beyond. I think they should have had the actor work out super hard and eat super clean to the point where his physcial appearance is jarring.  

But Toby's diet is not conducive to extreme weight loss, so it wouldn't make sense for him to suddenly be lean and gaunt. It sounds like he's eating plant-based and high-calorie, so his rate of weight loss is much slower than if he only ate steak like that idiot Jordan Peterson. The goal of a (whole food) plant-based diet is not to lose large amounts of weight, it's to achieve and maintain optimal health. While people who start out overweight do lose weight, they still get all the essential nutrients and sufficient calories, thus avoiding the gaunt look.

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22 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Eating only steak is extremely unhealthy. There are thousands of studies that have shown that eating excessive amounts of red meat (and animal products in general) is harmful (and that the healthiest populations on the planet eat plant-centric diets). I wouldn't listen to anything this guy says, no matter what credentials he claims to have.

I didn't posit that Jordan Peterson was smart for only eating steak; I'm not commenting on it.  My point in posting Jordan Peterson's picture was to demonstrate that one can definitely achieve the gaunt look without dehydrating, which is what two people posted in response to the original Cross-Fit picture I posted.  People said, "that guy is guant from dehydrating," so I said, "ok, here is a picture of a guy who is gaunt and not dehydrated." 

25 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

But Toby's diet is not conducive to extreme weight loss

From where did you gather that Toby's diet isn't for extreme weight loss?  Because he mentioned loving nut cheese?  I loved chocolate and doughnuts when I dieted down below 110 lbs; didn't mean I was eating them on the regular.

Because he had tempeh?  I just found a tempeh recipe online for 160 calories.

What is inarguable, what has been established on the show, is that Toby is die-hard Cross-Fit.  I looked up Cross-Fit diet for weight loss on the Internet, and it stresses not to eat gluten, sugar, legumes, fructose, or starchy vegetables.  What it recommends is high-quality protein and non-starchy vegetables.  

Anyone can get thin quickly if they follow the above, and there's no indication he's not following it.

------------------------------------------

There are a million reasons why Toby might not have a gaunt facial look if he's following this program.  Perphaps he's following a Cross-Fit diet for weight gain for some reason.  Perhaps he has a face that carries a disproportionate amount of  of fat in it, maybe he's constantly being stung by bees and his face is always swollen, etc.  What I am saying is that it would be far likelier than not that if Toby had initially revealed a 50-lb weight loss (true) and he continued to follow his routine completely (which is the storyline), there would be advanced indications of weight loss.  He wouldn't have stalled out at 50 lbs, and I think the story would be told better and the show would be better if those continuing results would be visible to the viewer.  

I can't think of another way to say it.  It's very obvious to me.  If people want to advance alternative theories, that's what we're here for, but if goal posts are going to be moved on me and I'm going to show a picture of Jordan Peterson specifically to debunk the "dehydration" myth, only to be told that Jordan Peterson is stupid for eating steak, then...I can't argue that type of logic.  Agree to disagree.

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28 minutes ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I didn't posit that Jordan Peterson was smart for only eating steak; I'm not commenting on it.  My point in posting Jordan Peterson's picture was to demonstrate that one can definitely achieve the gaunt look without dehydrating, which is what two people posted in response to the original Cross-Fit picture I posted.  People said, "that guy is guant from dehydrating," so I said, "ok, here is a picture of a guy who is gaunt and not dehydrated." 

Dehydration is a well-documented side effect of extremely low-carb diets. It doesn't get any lower-carb than eating only steak, so he very likely *is* dehydrated. He's also missing out on may essential nutrients due to not eating fruit and vegetables, which contributes to the gauntness.

28 minutes ago, LibertarianSlut said:

What is inarguable, what has been established on the show, is that Toby is die-hard Cross-Fit.  I looked up Cross-Fit diet for weight loss on the Internet, and it stresses not to eat gluten, sugar, legumes, fructose, or starchy vegetables.  What it recommends is high-quality protein and non-starchy vegetables.  

Tempeh is made from soy, which is a legume, and if Toby travels with it, it means he eats it on a regular basis, therefore he doesn't adhere to the typical CrossFit diet. It seems like you're making assumptions about his diet based on his chosen form of exercise, but that doesn't square with what we've been shown.

Edited by chocolatine
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My UO-I think I like Miguel more than I like Jack.  I really need the backstory on how Rebecca and Miguel ended up together, and I am heartbroken for him that she is about to struggle mentally.  Miguel deserves an apology from the big three and an acknowledgement that he has been great for Rebecca.

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@chocolatine, I am going to reply in the Small Talk thread, but I just wanted to say I didn't know there was a link between meat diets and dehydration, which is why I thought you were moving goal posts.  

I know I don't always get to make the points I want to make exactly how I want to make them, because this is a message board, not a thesis, so...friends?

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100 g of tempeh has more calories than 100 of skinless chicken breast, so Toby's probably more about eating clean than rapid weight loss through both diet and exercise.  I wonder if we're heading to a storyline of male eating disorders.

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On 11/17/2019 at 2:55 PM, Ohmo said:

I'm troubled by continually asking a 12-13 year-old to play such scenes because those scenes have undertones to them that the actress might not be emotionally equipped to deal with or may cause her to have negative thoughts about her own body.

Welcome to Hollywood!

I don't know the actress or what type of support she might have to play the part and deal with the repercussions in real life but the little and big damages caused in children who are in the TV/movie is well known

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Something just occurred to me.  Is it possible that Kevin's fiance is pregnant with a child that ISN'T Kevin's?  The writers, after all, love to throw curveballs.  

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Lady Calypso

Let's bring the discussion back to Unpopular Opinions about the show.  

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