Questions and Speculations

[DarkRaichu]

35 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

To add to this discussion about data extraction...

In S1, when Ford was having lunch with Theresa, he said to her "we know everything about our guests." To me, that seems like he was aware of/approved of the efforts to collect data from guests and store it. 

Yep.  Ford most likely approved as long as the data stayed on Westworld so he could use it as collateral to do whatever he wanted.  After 25+ years, the new Delos management did not approve of that and tried to transmit the data out.  When they failed to transmit (ie host that was stuck in a hole), they stored the data in Abernathy so they could physically move it out.

Hmm I wonder how many of the new Delos management attended the shareholders dinner?? Ford could have struck a deal with the new board by getting rid of their (presumably) opposition (ie the old folks) in 1 fell swoop.  Too cynical?? ;)

[Ellaria]

8 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Yep.  Ford most likely approved as long as the data stayed on Westworld so he could use it as collateral to do whatever he wanted.  After 25+ years, the new Delos management did not approve of that and tried to transmit the data out.  When they failed to transmit (ie host that was stuck in a hole), they stored the data in Abernathy so they could physically move it out.

Hmm I wonder how many of the new Delos management attended the shareholders dinner?? Ford could have struck a deal with the new board by getting rid of their (presumably) opposition (ie the old folks) in 1 fell swoop.  Too cynical?? ;)

Agree. Ford approved of the data mining/maintenance at some point. Now, I suspect that Delos may have been using the data - along with the DNA - for good things. William is approached by a guest and thanked for saving his sister. I *think* that someone - Ford? - said that disease has been eliminated. My guess is that this resulted from work with guests' DNA.

Now, 25-30 years later, Delos management wants this data for nefarious purposes. Control the world type of stuff. Ford knew or suspected and created the host revolution.

I don't think that Ford cared who among the Delos board/shareholders lived or died. He didn't place much faith in humans so I imagine he believed that all of them would be wiped out. The wild card, of course, is William.

[TobinAlbers]

Listening to The Ringer's The Recappables: Westworld podcast and boy howdy did they discuss a Reddit theory about Beach!Bernard that was pretty damn intriguing and potentially story changing. 

Do we think/hope that present day Logan has gotten his shit together and is mounting his own campaign against William/MiB? I'm trying to think of what actor could feasibly be Older!Logan and match up to Ed Harris's ruthless MiB. I think key for Logan is has he undergone some kind of enlightenment or is his journey/mission one of petty personal revenge?

[Ellaria]

4 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Do we think/hope that present day Logan has gotten his shit together and is mounting his own campaign against William/MiB? I'm trying to think of what actor could feasibly be Older!Logan and match up to Ed Harris's ruthless MiB. I think key for Logan is has he undergone some kind of enlightenment or is his journey/mission one of petty personal revenge?

Bingo! Yes, I would love to see a clean and sober Logan in the present day. And yes, he would definitely be in opposition to MIB. If Logan reappears it should be to oppose the DNA collection/usage along with Delos' secret agenda (whatever that is). He gave a warning to Dolores at his dad's retirement that they were going to be the downfall of the species (humans, presumably). And in S1 he did say that the hosts were too real (paraphrasing). Perhaps he realized this from the start.

Trying to think of an actor to be Older!Logan. It will be hard to go toe-to-toe with Harris. He is truly one of the best. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[onedaylove]

Do dolores turns to black? 

[Pallas]

15 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Do we think/hope that present day Logan has gotten his shit together and is mounting his own campaign against William/MiB?

What about a present-day Emily -- perhaps revealed to be in partnership with her uncle Logan?

[Ellaria]

22 minutes ago, Pallas said:

What about a present-day Emily -- perhaps revealed to be in partnership with her uncle Logan?

That would be interesting. We could use a few humans trying to save the world rather than destroy it or dominate it. (However, I suppose that it is subjective, as well.)

[TobinAlbers]

42 minutes ago, Pallas said:

What about a present-day Emily -- perhaps revealed to be in partnership with her uncle Logan?

Given that his daughter holds MIB/William accountable for her mother -Logan's sister- death, I can see that possible team up. She'd be late 30s/40s right? She's his next of kin and from the primary investing family so with William MIA in the park during a host uprising she may be pulled into these events with Uncle Logan being familiar with the park coming with her to assess the situation. Or Emily and Logan may bitterly feel that the park can have William. It was there where he really lived instead of the 'real' world where he wore a mask and went through the motions.

[Pallas]

I wonder if the game that Ford invented for William -- the one that returns to the beginning; the one he must play alone; the one that will come to him -- is to earn the love of Dolores. 

[Pallas]

1 minute ago, TobinAlbers said:

Or Emily and Logan may bitterly feel that the park can have William.

They may devoutly wish for the park to have WiIliam, but perhaps they can't allow WIlliam to have the park. That is, to destroy it.

[Ellaria]

Something to consider about Delos' activities outside the park...
There is lots of speculation that Delos is "transferring the consciousness" of humans into host bodies (and perhaps making them immortal). Of course, this would not be happening to the average Joes of the world. It is only happening with influential people.

Two concerns with this theory. 1)These human/hosts would have to age, otherwise suspicions would be raised. So far, we have not seen hosts that age. Even Bernard - which is the closest thing that we have seen to a human/host hybrid - has not aged.

2)The other concern is detection. If there are a bunch of human/host hybrids running around, it would require an elaborate network to avoid detection. At some point, one of these influential people does something unexpected and is taken to a local hospital or morgue and boom...

Instead, I suspect that Delos' plot of world domination (or whatever their goal is) involves the ability to predict, control and  program human behavior. If you observe people over time and collect all sorts of data on them, you could conceivably put them in situations where you could create/control the expected outcomes. 

After all, we spend a lot of time talking about the hosts' acquiring free will and consciousness. What if Delos is essentially doing the reverse and eliminating free will from humans (again, influential ones)?

Edited May 2, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[Nashville]

On 5/2/2018 at 8:55 AM, Ellaria Sand said:

Something to consider about Delos' activities outside the park...
There is lots of speculation that Delos is "transferring the consciousness" of humans into host bodies (and perhaps making them immortal). Of course, this would not be happening to the average Joes of the world. It is only happening with influential people.

Two concerns with this theory. 1)These human/hosts would have to age, otherwise suspicions would be raised. So far, we have not seen hosts that age. Even Bernard - which is the closest thing that we have seen to a human/host hybrid - has not aged.

2)The other concern is detection. If there are a bunch of human/host hybrids running around, it would require an elaborate network to avoid detection. At some point, one of these influential people does something unexpected and is taken to a local hospital or morgue and boom...

Well, something had already occurred to me along those lines when considering the questions raised about MIB’s marked propensity to shrug off physical damage which would incapacitate lesser men:

1. Given how many billions (trillions maybe, even) of R&D dollars Delos has sunk into the hosts, would it be too far afield to think Delos might try to recoup some of its costs with some specific cottage industries built upon subsets of their accumulated technology - such as, for example, prosthetics?
2. And If Delos Prosthetics were already an industry-accepted standard Out In The Real World, who’s going to blink if chunks of Delos hardware show up in X-rays or MRIs?  Of comment on the degree of prosthetic enhancement in certain wealthy individuals?

 

On 5/2/2018 at 8:55 AM, Ellaria Sand said:

Instead, I suspect that Delos' plot of world domination (or whatever their goal is) involves the ability to predict, control and  program human behavior. If you observe people over time and collect all sorts of data on them, you could conceivably put them in situations where you could create/control the expected outcomes. 

Soooo... Delos is actually a cover for Cambridge Analytica?  ;>

[Ellaria]

47 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Well, something had already occurred to me along those lines when considering the questions raised about MIB’s marked propensity to shrug off physical damage which would incapacitate lesser men:

1. Given how many billions (trillions maybe, even) of R&D dollars Delos has sunk into the hosts, would it be too far afield to think Delos might try to recoup some of its costs with some specific cottage industries built upon subsets of their accumulated technology - such as, for example, prosthetics?
2. And If Delos Prosthetics were already an industry-accepted standard Out In The Real World, who’s going to blink if chunks of Delos hardware show up in X-rays or MRIs?  Of comment on the degree of prosthetic enhancement in certain wealthy individuals?

 

Soooo... Delos is actually a cover for Cambridge Analytica?  ;>

I like the possibility of prosthetic enhancement in the wealthy/influential. Its like creating a bunch of Bionic Men (and yes, I am dating myself with that reference). If Delos was considered an innovator in biotechnology and advancement of well-being, their hardware showing up on MRIs would not be questioned. I think this is a much more creative concept that absolute immortality. These "advances" could extend life in a more reasonable way.

I bet that Delos would be much better about it than Cambridge Analytica.

[Misplaced]

So, first, I'm a dolt: I finally remembered that "Ford" is the messianic figure in Brave New World - a major plot point of that novel is the engineering of humans - and one of the main characters is (a) Bernard!  Time to re-read it.  (I'm sure someone else has noticed this, but hey, I'm a dolt.)

Second, when Dorlores is in "reality," Bernard says "this is ... Our World."  Did anyone (else) think "huh, that's an interesting way to describe it.  I wonder if Our World is just another park, like Westworld or [possibly] Samurai World or [even] Futureworld?"  Oh so tempting.  Particularly as Bernard says he's bringing his family there because "I need to have my two worlds at least within reach of one another."  Ooooooh.

Third, the DNA Thing.  Waaaaaaaay back in Season 1, Episode 1, Ford says something like "What will they create next?  Immortality?"  (I don't have the exact words but it's always stuck in my head.)  And then at Delos Senior's retirement bash, as he's coughing through his sentences and saying he doesn't have as much time as others do, William says "Things are progressing but we need patience."  I think the Great DNA Heist is about creating immortals, Park Hosts combined with real people's Minds.  Something like that film The Island.  On the other hand, MiB's bar chat with Lawrence strongly suggested to me that the DNA Heist is about blackmail.  And on the third hand, MiB says "Dead isn't what it used to be, Lawrence."  So I'm going with immortality.  

Finally, I still think Charlotte is a host...which means the DNA Reader in the bunker wasn't programmed to read DNA but Pretend DNA, which also means that Bernard wouldn't have triggered it (because he has Pretend DNA too).  

Edited May 3, 2018 by Misplaced
Typos!

[Blakeston]

I feel like there has to be some secretive reason why someone as young as Charlotte is the executive director of Delos. If we get an explanation, I'm guessing it's something crazy, like she's Maeve's daughter (and they somehow created a host that grew from a little girl to a woman, and programmed her to be the perfect executive.)

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

If we get an explanation, I'm guessing it's something crazy, like she's Maeve's daughter (and they somehow created a host that grew from a little girl to a woman, and programmed her to be the perfect executive.)

But they who? Or perfect executive for whom? Why would Ford and Arnold/Bernard go along with that plan? Charlotte is no friend to the machines. (All right: not yet, anyway.) 

Still. This week we saw someone who may be William's daughter, and Dolores with her father. Last week, we saw William and someone who was definitely his daughter. Charlotte is being portrayed as canny and solitary in life, completely at ease in command and a shrewd businesswoman of her time: like Maeve, minus the humanity. And it was Charlotte, wasn't it, who ordered up a Hector to pass the time with her when she first arrived. 

[Notwisconsin]

On 5/8/2018 at 1:40 PM, Blakeston said:

 If we get an explanation, I'm guessing it's something crazy, like she's Maeve's daughter (and they somehow created a host that grew from a little girl to a woman, and programmed her to be the perfect executive.)

First off, the little girl-bot was NEVER anyone's daughter. Just like Abernathy was never actually anyone's father. Secondly, why would they do that when they could make one new host much easier than doing a bunch of slightly "older" bots?

[Pallas]

On 5/15/2018 at 10:47 AM, Notwisconsin said:

why would they do that when they could make one new host much easier than doing a bunch of slightly "older" bots?

Field testing for the process of aging a hybrid: as Delos, Inc might have planned do with Delos, James. Testing the time, expense and credibility -- the so-called fidelity -- as well as what gets lost each time the consciousness egg is transferred from current host to new, "older" host, etc.  Field testing in very much controlled circumstances: out of sight of the world, with an anonymous subject, set among programmed characters and events.

I'm not saying this is who Charlotte is, but it's possible. I do suspect she's under some illusions about her role in the scheme of things. 

[Avaleigh]

Warning: wild, wild speculation ahead lol.

I keep going back to the similarity of Delos, Bernard, and Abernathy having the shaking thing going on as if they're being overloaded. We've seen other hosts malfunction and wind down, but the shaking thing seems to be something that only these three have gone through unless I'm forgetting someone. 

Bernard's shaking hand reminds me of Delos struggling to put cream in his coffee. Bernard is very different from the other hosts. He's arguably the most life like. Is it possible that Ford came closer to managing what William and Delos were trying to achieve and more or less succeeded by having Arnold's consciousness put into the host Bernard? 

This latest episode indicates that there was another attempt to upload the consciousness of someone into the body of a host. We don't know who the other person is but I'm guessing that the main candidates are William (MiB), Delos (Abernathy), or Arnold (Bernard). 

Abernathy is incredibly valuable to Delos for some reason. So much so that Charlotte wasn't going to be rescued unless she could guarantee that she's taking him with her. 

Then I think about what originally caused the disturbance in Abernathy. He freaked out over seeing the picture of Delos's daughter. I originally assumed that Abernathy was struggling because he couldn't make sense of a modern looking picture. Now it occurs to me that the reveries caused him to remember that he somehow knows this woman but can't understand how any of it makes sense because he still feels himself to be Abernathy. 

In terms of his conversations with Delores is it possible that it's so heartfelt because Delos is thinking of his real daughter? 

This episode more than any other made me think were going to get a reveal that Ford was (mostly) successful in transferring the consciousness of a person into the body of a host. I'm just not sure which character it will turn out to be.

ETA 

Oh, and the more that I think about it, the more the MiB's memories of his wife and daughter feels like a backstory. He's changed a lot since the night of the gala.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Avaleigh

[LoveLeigh]

Lawrence's daughter says: don't look forward, look back. I think that is a big clue that a person from the past who died could have been successfully brought back to life. William's wife? Ford? Charlie? Logan?

Look back.... there is the clue right there, but look back to find what? 

[CatS]

I think Ford wants MiB to find some of his old, good self as he was when he first came to the park and that's his journey this season. The park has taken away his humanity and he's basically a human robot at this point. Saving Lawrence and family is a step toward compassion/humanity. He wants him to look back at the man he used to be. His daughter showing up is not a coincidence. 

[Notwisconsin]

On 5/18/2018 at 3:21 AM, DakotaLavender said:

Look back.... there is the clue right there, but look back to find what? 

Well, it's right there in the "scenes from our next episode" vignette from episode six. Ford had his consciousness duplicated and is now controlling the park on a homicidal bender.

[LoveLeigh]

2 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

Well, it's right there in the "scenes from our next episode" vignette from episode six. Ford had his consciousness duplicated and is now controlling the park on a homicidal bender.

He put his consciousness into Maeve? If not, then who? Dolores? 

[Pallas]

On 5/20/2018 at 4:22 PM, CatS said:

I think Ford wants MiB to find some of his old, good self as he was when he first came to the park and that's his journey this season. The park has taken away his humanity and he's basically a human robot at this point. Saving Lawrence and family is a step toward compassion/humanity. He wants him to look back at the man he used to be. His daughter showing up is not a coincidence. 

 

Yes, Ford's comment to William about "one good deed" should have been a huge clue to William about the nature of the game. Ford diverted William away from the railroad and into Las Mudas, which Wiliam shot up last season, killing Lawrence's wife and daughter. There Wiliam encounters a (cracked) mirror image in Major Craddock, who is bent on doing worse: terrorizing the town before destroying it. William finds himself beginning to recall his life in reverse, focusing on his wife's suicide the year prior.

From there he maims Craddock and has Lawrence immolate him -- as he had a tech immolate the Delos cyborg 148 times out of 149 -- saving Lawrence's family. (Lawrence is another cracked mirror: a man who admits he was never much for domestic life, a bad husband and father always leaving his family to pursue a shady adventure.) And from there, William rides straight off into an encounter with his own grown daughter. I expect that flashbacks to Logan, Juliet and Delos lie just ahead, over the next rise. During this season we'll see William progress back to encounter -- I think literally, in robot form -- the man he was before he set foot in Westworld. 

 

9 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

11 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

Well, it's right there in the "scenes from our next episode" vignette from episode six. Ford had his consciousness duplicated and is now controlling the park on a homicidal bender.

He put his consciousness into Maeve? If not, then who? Dolores? 

The "Fuck you Robert" Robots who pop off to piss off William, and serve as a Greek Chorus on his actions. Boy-Robert robot WIliam shot in the face; Lawrence-Daughter robot, though, William left unharmed. Baby steps. 

[Notwisconsin]

On 5/17/2018 at 8:33 PM, Avaleigh said:

ETA 

Oh, and the more that I think about it, the more the MiB's memories of his wife and daughter feels like a backstory. He's changed a lot since the night of the gala.

But then, his wife really DID kill herself and his daughter is quite real...and speaking of which, Juliette knew all about William's being the MIB and so did his daughter. Otherwise Emily wouldn't have the arc she does. In her backstory, he probably took her there many times and gave her a job at Delos. After all, she's probably the last real Delos left. William tries his best to be good and loving in the outside world, where he's a beloved humanitarian/philanthropist.

There's lots of evidence that Ford cribbed William's research and managed to get his conciousness reproduced, which is why he let Delorus blow his brains out.

[Avaleigh]

10 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

But then, his wife really DID kill herself and his daughter is quite real...and speaking of which, Juliette knew all about William's being the MIB and so did his daughter. Otherwise Emily wouldn't have the arc she does. In her backstory, he probably took her there many times and gave her a job at Delos. After all, she's probably the last real Delos left. William tries his best to be good and loving in the outside world, where he's a beloved humanitarian/philanthropist.

There's lots of evidence that Ford cribbed William's research and managed to get his conciousness reproduced, which is why he let Delorus blow his brains out.

It isn't that I don't believe that the real life wife killed herself. I'm sure she did. It's the way that he's particularly focused on the memories now that makes it feel like a backstory. It makes me think of Bernard's backstory with Charlie that was taken from Arnold's real life. Right now my thought is that if William is a host that he became one after dying at the Gala. ETA: In fact, one of the lines that William gets in the first episode of this season when asked if he's lost is "I feel like I've just arrived."

As for Abernathy and what cause his original breakdown, I think it makes a lot more sense that he was stirred by the picture because he recognized Juliet as opposed to just being confused about seeing a modern setting. Why didn't Abernathy just look at the picture and say or think "It doesn't look like anything to me." That's what Delores and Bernard both did when they were confronted with a picture or drawing of something they couldn't understand. Why was it different with Abernathy? Why did he respond so strongly to Delos's daughter? The shaking and stammering is all very similar to the breakdown that host!Delos was going through in episode 4. 

Edited May 23, 2018 by Avaleigh

[Misplaced]

On 18/05/2018 at 1:33 AM, Avaleigh said:

Warning: wild, wild speculation ahead lol.

I keep going back to the similarity of Delos, Bernard, and Abernathy having the shaking thing going on as if they're being overloaded. We've seen other hosts malfunction and wind down, but the shaking thing seems to be something that only these three have gone through unless I'm forgetting someone. 

Bernard's shaking hand reminds me of Delos struggling to put cream in his coffee. Bernard is very different from the other hosts. He's arguably the most life like. Is it possible that Ford came closer to managing what William and Delos were trying to achieve and more or less succeeded by having Arnold's consciousness put into the host Bernard? 

[snip]

I did wonder if "Bernard" (or Bernarnold, as he is being called) was being replaced every 35 days, once his hand starts to shake -- the latest Delos Sr lasted without catastrphic damage was 35 days.  If the tech is roughly the same, then Bernarnold will collapse in on himself once a month-ish. 

If that's true, then (I'll tag it) 

Spoiler

the host that Ford was making in the Ranch Lab is season 1 was .... Bernard. 

[Accidental Martyr]

Jimmi Simpson reads fan theories from Twitter.

[Pallas]

On 5/23/2018 at 12:00 PM, Avaleigh said:

Why didn't Abernathy just look at the picture and say or think "It doesn't look like anything to me." That's what Delores and Bernard both did when they were confronted with a picture or drawing of something they couldn't understand. Why was it different with Abernathy?

He was already glitching, and remembering his own previous iterations. Maybe he too had been in the world outside, and was beginning to remember. As Dolores has, now. 

[Nashville]

On 5/22/2018 at 11:39 AM, Notwisconsin said:

Well, it's right there in the "scenes from our next episode" vignette from episode six. Ford had his consciousness duplicated and is now controlling the park on a homicidal bender.

Swear to god - first time I read this I thought you said “controlling the park as a homicidal blender, and I almost peed my pants laughing at the image.  

[tabularasa]

I'm sorry to be spamming but I'm extremely bitter. Could someone explain me why critics thought this season was an improvement over season 1? It's a mess!

[Avaleigh]

20 hours ago, tabularasa said:

I'm sorry to be spamming but I'm extremely bitter. Could someone explain me why critics thought this season was an improvement over season 1? It's a mess!

I've been loving this season. I love the complexity regarding the questions of morality and what it means to truly be alive. I also like seeing Maeve and Dolores on different paths even though they seem to have similar goals. Maeve seems to have taken a slightly more compassionate approach and thinks that the hosts should have the freedom to choose their fate. Dolores has become the thing that she hates---she's just as bad or worse than the humans who chose to be black hats during their visits to Westworld. 

As for the various timelines and mysteries, I feel this is part of what makes this show exciting and different. Also, it's a continuation of what the show was like last season. Last season had multiple mysteries and timelines so I expected that to be the case this season. 

The flashback episode where we see the creation of host!Delos was my favorite episode so far in this entire series. That brought a lot of intriguing questions to the table. 

Some people hated Shogunworld and Rajworld but I enjoyed getting a look into the other parks. I'd like to see more of the other parks we haven't seen if the show goes on long enough. 

On 5/25/2018 at 4:17 AM, Pallas said:

He was already glitching, and remembering his own previous iterations. Maybe he too had been in the world outside, and was beginning to remember. As Dolores has, now. 

I thought the glitching started after he saw the picture. Dolores doesn't start worrying about him until the scene where she realizes that he's been out all night looking at the picture. I might not be remembering correctly but I thought the other iterations started to peek through after the picture incident. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Avaleigh

[kassandra8286]

I'm wondering about Maeve's daughter, now that she's found her. Maeve has the ability to awaken her, allow her access to all her memories, make her self-aware (I think) so will she? If so, would this child with years and years of memories and new-found self-awareness become a virtual adult trapped in a child's body, like Claudia from Interview with a Vampire? If not now then surely eventually as her personality/mind ages but her body doesn't. Will the daughter be OK with that or will she want to be uploaded into a new, mature body? Can the hosts do that with the park all dismantled and most of the human workers dead? 

I guess it remains to be seen what Maeve and company plan to do now that her quest has been achieved. 

[maystone]

1 hour ago, kassandra8286 said:

I'm wondering about Maeve's daughter, now that she's found her. Maeve has the ability to awaken her, allow her access to all her memories, make her self-aware (I think) so will she? If so, would this child with years and years of memories and new-found self-awareness become a virtual adult trapped in a child's body, like Claudia from Interview with a Vampire? If not now then surely eventually as her personality/mind ages but her body doesn't. Will the daughter be OK with that or will she want to be uploaded into a new, mature body? Can the hosts do that with the park all dismantled and most of the human workers dead? 

I guess it remains to be seen what Maeve and company plan to do now that her quest has been achieved. 

Those are excellent questions! I would guess that in this season, just finding her and then keeping them all safe from Delos will be the primary concern, but wow - I'd love to see a season focused on the issues that you've raised.

[Haleth]

5 hours ago, kassandra8286 said:

I'm wondering about Maeve's daughter, now that she's found her. Maeve has the ability to awaken her, allow her access to all her memories, make her self-aware (I think) so will she? If so, would this child with years and years of memories and new-found self-awareness become a virtual adult trapped in a child's body, like Claudia from Interview with a Vampire? If not now then surely eventually as her personality/mind ages but her body doesn't. Will the daughter be OK with that or will she want to be uploaded into a new, mature body? Can the hosts do that with the park all dismantled and most of the human workers dead? 

I guess it remains to be seen what Maeve and company plan to do now that her quest has been achieved. 

It's a good question too because the actress has already grown a lot in the past year. We can't handwave that she's 7yo (or whatever) forever.

[wilnil]

10 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I also like seeing Maeve and Dolores on different paths even though they seem to have similar goals. Maeve seems to have taken a slightly more compassionate approach and thinks that the hosts should have the freedom to choose their fate. Dolores has become the thing that she hates---she's just as bad or worse than the humans who chose to be black hats during their visits to Westworld.

I've been wondering about the fairly major differences between Maeve's and Dolores' "awakenings" for a while. My recollections of Season 1 events may be off somewhat, but here's how I remember it all happening:

While some hosts got Ford's "reveries" update that gave them access to snippets of "past lives" memories as sort of a counterpart to dreaming or fantasizing, Dolores somehow (by bring traumatized?) got full access to everything she'd ever experienced, confusing the hell out of her -- "Is this now?"* -- and sending her on her odyssey across the park while she sorted it all out, culminating in her discovering that the MIB was old William, which gave her the last piece she (and we) needed in order to sort out what's what and what happened when. Scarred by all the abuse she now remembers taking, she literally goes on the warpath against humanity.

For Maeve, meanwhile, she seemed to have gotten the regular reveries, though her snippets were her more nightmarish past-life memories. The big difference with her was that she got the ability/compulsion to wake up whenever she was brought to the Mesa for repairs, which led to her discovering the real world and her role in it, and (partly thanks to Felix) gaining a major intelligence boost and admin-level access. She almost escapes, but not before finding out that she'd still been acting according to narratives Ford apparently wrote, and exercises free will by deciding on a quest to find her "daughter" instead.

Ford appears to be behind both approaches, but we also got hints that dead Arnold was still playing with the programming from beyond the grave, though we don't yet know whether he's doing so through "time-release" programs written before he died or whether he's an uploaded "ghost in the machine." So maybe the Dolores vs. Maeve differences are basically a proxy for a behind-the-scenes war between Ford and Arnold (or, actually, their "ghosts")?

 

* An AI getting confused between current events and perfectly recalled memories is an idea Jonathan Nolan started playing with in his previous series, Person of Interest, where in the last season two different variations on this problem affect the computer-based AI that show was built around. (In fact, that Machine even asks "Is this now?" at one point in that season.) I kind of get the feeling that part of Westworld's "philosophy" is Nolan running with concepts he didn't get to explore more due to POI's cancellation.

Edited May 29, 2018 by wilnil

[CatS]

My latest thoughts are that we are thinking about this too obviously with Ford being the bad guy. My guess is that Arnold uploaded himself into the matrix before he died. At first I was thinking Ford was the destructive one but now I think Arnold is the one behind the revenge bots. Dolores was his favorite after all.

He's been hanging out in the matrix all this time, watching what humans are doing to his creations. Now he's trying to make himself "real" again, and looky looky, there is his body conveniently running around with Bernard inside. He is the one that had Bernard get the red brain out of the lab so he could be reincarnated. The Bernard Dolores is checking for "fidelity" is the Bernard bot with Arnold's red ball brain inside. 

Ford realized what was happening and he started making changes during season 1. He is/was trying to prevent Arnold's massacre by changing the matrix to either allow the hosts to gain sentience independent of Arnold and/or he uploaded himself into the matrix to control them himself...here we have Maeve and Ghost Nation. Also MiB's quest to find his humanity again. 

[Quilt Fairy]

I'm wondering if the MIB was actually killed at the gala and is now experiencing his journey as a simulation in the Cradle.  I was re-watching the S2E1 episode because I wanted to compare the Bernard/Dolores interview with the one just shown in E6.  But as I continued to watch, I came to the scene where we first see the MIB throwing off a couple of dead bodies from the morning after the massacre at the gala.  Posters commented at the time "Boy, didn't he just have his shoulder dislocated? His arm is moving pretty well for that."  Anyhow, the one thing he sees moving  among the carnage is a white wolf. It's a total anomaly.  I immediately remembered the seemingly out-of-place greyhound that Bernard notices while he's in the Cradle which leads him to Dr. Ford and wondered if there was a connection.  As I continued watching S2 episodes, I came to the MIB's meeting with El Lazo, where El Lazo (as Ford) says to him "I will see you in the valley beyond".  Ford's "valley beyond" is obviously his uploaded consciousness in the Cradle and I think that's where and how the MIB will meet him.  I had been trying to figure out the first clue that the MIB got from the boy-Ford "Your journey begins where you end and ends where you began" and suddenly it made sense to me:  MIB's journey began in Escalante where he was really killed (he ends) at the gala and will end in Sweetwater where William turns into MIB (he begins) and where MIB will meet Ford.

[Gobi]

16 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I'm wondering if the MIB was actually killed at the gala and is now experiencing his journey as a simulation in the Cradle.  I was re-watching the S2E1 episode because I wanted to compare the Bernard/Dolores interview with the one just shown in E6.  But as I continued to watch, I came to the scene where we first see the MIB throwing off a couple of dead bodies from the morning after the massacre at the gala.  Posters commented at the time "Boy, didn't he just have his shoulder dislocated? His arm is moving pretty well for that."  Anyhow, the one thing he sees moving  among the carnage is a white wolf. It's a total anomaly.  I immediately remembered the seemingly out-of-place greyhound that Bernard notices while he's in the Cradle which leads him to Dr. Ford and wondered if there was a connection.  As I continued watching S2 episodes, I came to the MIB's meeting with El Lazo, where El Lazo (as Ford) says to him "I will see you in the valley beyond".  Ford's "valley beyond" is obviously his uploaded consciousness in the Cradle and I think that's where and how the MIB will meet him.  I had been trying to figure out the first clue that the MIB got from the boy-Ford "Your journey begins where you end and ends where you began" and suddenly it made sense to me:  MIB's journey began in Escalante where he was really killed (he ends) at the gala and will end in Sweetwater where William turns into MIB (he begins) and where MIB will meet Ford.

I've been wondering this, too. To me, a clue could be his conversation with his daughter. He remembered her being frightened by the elephants; she said it was her mother, not her, who was scared of the elephants.

Possible reasons:

MIB just didn't remember right, due to age or not being attentive back then.

MIB is a host, and the programmed memory was incorrect.

The daughter is a host (as MIB believed, and may still believe), and her programmed memory is incorrect.

It seemed too significant an incident to not have a deeper meaning.

[DarkRaichu]

18 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I'm wondering if the MIB was actually killed at the gala and is now experiencing his journey as a simulation in the Cradle.  I was re-watching the S2E1 episode because I wanted to compare the Bernard/Dolores interview with the one just shown in E6.  But as I continued to watch, I came to the scene where we first see the MIB throwing off a couple of dead bodies from the morning after the massacre at the gala.  Posters commented at the time "Boy, didn't he just have his shoulder dislocated? His arm is moving pretty well for that."  Anyhow, the one thing he sees moving  among the carnage is a white wolf. It's a total anomaly.  I immediately remembered the seemingly out-of-place greyhound that Bernard notices while he's in the Cradle which leads him to Dr. Ford and wondered if there was a connection.  As I continued watching S2 episodes, I came to the MIB's meeting with El Lazo, where El Lazo (as Ford) says to him "I will see you in the valley beyond".  Ford's "valley beyond" is obviously his uploaded consciousness in the Cradle and I think that's where and how the MIB will meet him.  I had been trying to figure out the first clue that the MIB got from the boy-Ford "Your journey begins where you end and ends where you began" and suddenly it made sense to me:  MIB's journey began in Escalante where he was really killed (he ends) at the gala and will end in Sweetwater where William turns into MIB (he begins) and where MIB will meet Ford.

My specualtion last week was the S2 MiB is a host and the core that Bernard took was a copy of William's memory.  It made more sense to me since the facility was supposedly William's secret lab to experiment with Delos Sr.  Ford was a smart man, if anything he uploaded his memory to cradle little by little as time went by, not as a single memory dump.

I like your theory though.  Bernard thought he was at the cradle recently, perhaps he brought MiB's core to the cradle per Ford's instructions.  So this could be the journey of MiB's memory within the Cradle and at the end of the journey the memory will find its new host body as reward.  ETA: I would not be surprised if the host body that Ford was creating in his secret lab was a host body modeled after William as reward for MiB

Edited May 31, 2018 by DarkRaichu
Body

[DarkRaichu]

Just to build on my previous post. We know the Cradle was destroyed 2 weeks later, ie after the 2nd Delos team came and found Bernard on the beach.  What if before the destruction of the cradle MiB's memory escape by jumping into Bernard's body that is still connected to the Cradle ?  I know some people think Teddy's memory is in confused beach!Bernard's body, but there is a good chance it is actually MiB's memory. 

There is 1 thing bothering me in episode 1: Stubb calling Bernard "the boss" as he stopped Delos agent from shooting Bernard.  Bernard was the head of Behaviour department, if anything he was on the same level as Stubb who was the chief security of Westworld.  Stubb knew MiB (head of Delos corporation board, ie the boss) is in Bernard's body. 

Also, Bernard never introduced himself as Bernard after we saw him on the beach.  Somebody else was there to introduce him or someone just assumed he was Bernard. 

[Libby]

I think that Ford's brain data is in the Bernard host at the beginning of Episode 6 when Delores is doing the fidelity test. I also think it's Ford in the Bernard host at all the 2 week scenes - found on the beach, going around with security. I think it was Ford who said that he killed them all when the dead hosts were found in the water. I also think that it was Ford looking so disturbed at the pile of bodies that they retrieved from the water.

[DarkRaichu]

Here is a wild prediction.  What if MiB is a bot and has been a bot for a few years (at least after Emily was born)?  What if the real William is in the Valley, actually still alive there or now is a code living inside the Forge?  William created a host version of him complete with his memory (ie. MiB) and the whole MiB's obsessions with Westworld was to test for "fidelity".

Now we know Delos has a backup of all guests inside the Forge for the purpose of creating bot copies of the real guests.  William could create a bot version of himself as an experiment and used his wife and daughter to test for fidelity.

ETA: Other possibility is Emily is the one controlling the Forge.  She created a bot version of herself to test bot!MiB fidelity.  Emily at Westworld seemed to know too many personal details so either she was real or she was a bot created by someone with that much knowledge about herself.

Edited June 18, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[piequinn35]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Here is a wild prediction.  What if MiB is a bot and has been a bot for a few years (at least after Emily was born)?  What if the real William is in the Valley, actually still alive there or now is a code living inside the Forge?  William created a host version of him complete with his memory (ie. MiB) and the whole MiB's obsessions with Westworld was to test for "fidelity".

Now we know Delos has a backup of all guests inside the Forge for the purpose of creating bot copies of the real guests.  William could create a bot version of himself as an experiment and used his wife and daughter to test for fidelity.

ETA: Other possibility is Emily is the one controlling the Forge.  She created a bot version of herself to test bot!MiB fidelity.  Emily at Westworld seemed to know too many personal details so either she was real or she was a bot created by someone with that much knowledge about herself.

But Teddy shot him in season 1 and the bullets bounced? 

[DarkRaichu]

31 minutes ago, piequinn35 said:

But Teddy shot him in season 1 and the bullets bounced? 

Well, MiB was wearing guests' hat. Perhaps the bullets automatically bounce (or change trajectory) when they register guests' hat (regardless of who wears them). 

[DEL901]

Something just occurred to me:  Delos  Dolores   Coincidence that the spellings are similar?  Or am I overthinking/looking for connections?

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, DEL901 said:

Something just occurred to me:  Delos  Dolores   Coincidence that the spellings are similar?  Or am I overthinking/looking for connections?

Purely nothing more than my opinion, but I think you’re overthinking it. :)  Keep in mind Dolores was one of Ford’s and Arnold’s original genesis models, developed long before Delos Corp. ever thought of sinking a cent into the operation.

ETA: ...which doesn’t NOT mean the show’s writers decided to mess with everybody....  ;)

Edited June 20, 2018 by Nashville

[Pallas]

2 hours ago, DEL901 said:

Delos  Dolores

Delos is the birthplace of the sun god Apollo; to the ancient Greeks, a sacred island as well as a thriving trade center. Dolores's name likely reflects its meaning: sorrow.

 

On 6/18/2018 at 2:43 PM, piequinn35 said:

But Teddy shot him in season 1 and the bullets bounced? 

 No matter what William was at that point -- and I think, entirely or mostly human -- I doubt Ford would allow any harm to befall him, before this season's final game. 

[Ellaria]

I'm coming back to a post that I made upthread a few weeks ago because it may be worth re-evaluating with the additional information from recent episodes: 

Quote

 

Instead, I suspect that Delos' plot of world domination (or whatever their goal is) involves the ability to predict, control and  program human behavior. If you observe people over time and collect all sorts of data on them, you could conceivably put them in situations where you could create/control the expected outcomes. 

After all, we spend a lot of time talking about the hosts' acquiring free will and consciousness. What if Delos is essentially doing the reverse and eliminating free will from humans (again, influential ones)?

 

We also know that the transfer of consciousness into a host body - while possible - is not currently viable. We now know that the Stetsons contained brain scanners. If Delos has this type of detailed information on its rich and influential guests, isn't it possible that Delos can now control their behavior? As Ford said, its all code and essentially humans are no different from hosts.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[SilverShadow]

On 6/18/2018 at 2:43 PM, piequinn35 said:

But Teddy shot him in season 1 and the bullets bounced? 

Remember in Season 1 when Charlotte did the glitch "test" with Clementine to set up Bernard and Ford she specifically said they have the capacity to have hosts read other hosts as "human" when they put hosts in QA garb to get beat up by Clem. There's no reason MIB couldn't have been the same if he was/is a host.