S01.E02: The Assassination Of Abraham Lincoln

[iMonrey]

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No. Neal Bledsoe was Robert Lincoln; the fiancé was...someone else. Lucy's reaction to the guy, as well as his kiss, made it clear she'd never seen him before.

Daniel DiTomasso played the fiance. His name is Noah, apparently. I guess we'll be seeing more of him. But Lucy's reaction was too ambiguous to me; I couldn't figure out what her reaction really meant (I thought it was the same actor at first until I looked it up).

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I actually kind of like the debate about the wife vs the sister.  Its an interesting one time travel wise.  What makes the sister worth saving and not the wife? 

Lucy's sister didn't die, she was "erased" because they messed with the timeline. Wyatt's wife died in the "correct," original timeline. Their purpose is supposed to be preserving the timeline, not changing it.

Besides, I don't know how Wyatt thinks he can save his wife anyhow. They've already established they can't travel back into their own past. So he can't go back to a time just before his wife died and save her because there would be 2 of him there. Lucy, on the other hand, can go back to the 50s, or whenever her parents met, and "fix" whatever she broke and make sure they end up together, re-directing the change she caused in 1937. That would be in line with her preserving the original timeline, which is what these people are supposed to be doing, allegedly.

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I'm not getting why Lucy isn't "remembering" the details of her new present but I guess that adds to the mystery of what is happening when she time travels

That part I get. The three time travelers go back to 1937, they change the timeline (or, fail to prevent the change), return to 2016 and find an alternate timeline. The reason they don't "remember" the history of this alternate timeline is because they aren't from it. They are from the original timeline. Luckily for them, they haven't changed enough of the timeline to wipe out all the scientists at the lab where the time machine originated from. Yet.

[BooBear]

I don't know about this show. I like the breezy fun of it but.. it bothers me that they keep changing history even if not much. Bothers me that Luka won't tell her what he is doing and now it is creeping me out that he could be her father. And I feel like the writers won't be able to resist doing it.   Wyatt seems like such a lame love interest and yet has a love interest post it note on his head.  After getting shot on episode two I kind of think Lucy could get some gun training and Wyatt could be left at home. I agree with the points that we are going to run out of history if the show keeps doing the same sort of stories. I do find it funny that she seems non plussed that she has a finance now. Kind of like so much has changed in two days that is the least of her problems. Another day, another person either comes into my life or stops existing. 

Also, eta, if we have a time Machine why don't we go to the future and find out what Luka is up to?

Edited October 13, 2016 by BooBear

[Netfoot]

22 minutes ago, BooBear said:

it bothers me that they keep changing history even if not much.

Pity they didn't choose to have the changes alter things to our present timeline and not from.  

For instance, their history originally might have had all the assassinations fail.  Flynn goes back to ensure they all succeed.  They go back to foil Flynn, thereby preventing any of the assassinations from happening.  But, they are only partially successful -- they save everyone else but except Abe, who still gets it. So their timeline gets altered and "minor" differences appear in their modern day, but their new history is what we know to be the "real" history, and their modern day no longer has Mexico as the southernmost state.

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, JackONeill said:

If she gets her sister back won't that be the timeline where her mother is dying? Sounds like a problem to me.

Not necessarily. Her sister's father just has to not smoke in the house and not proselytize smoking to her mother.

[wanderingstar]

"All that guy did was get shot."

I was liking this show before Rufus uttered this line, but after that, I think I have fallen in love.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[tankgirl73]

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Speaking of the bad guys, I continue to wonder if they are even really the bad guys. Maybe they do have some kind of noble goal? Or maybe they're trying to ensure a different time line, and the one we all remember (Hindenburg goes down accidentally, Booth kills Lincoln) is actually wrong? Plot twist! 

This is exactly what I suspect is going to happen. Luka is her father, and he's likely from the future (a la Terminator). The real bad guy (or organization) is this secret name, which escapes me at the moment, that they're not allowed to say out loud or acknowledge the existence of.  Remember that these are not the first time travel trips -- the "pilots" have done other trips before. They've done enough trips to have developed a second (new and improved) ship. The bad guy (or organization) has been changing things on those previous trips, until we ended up with our universe -- what we THINK OF as the 'original' timeline.

But it's not the original, it's a tampered-with timeline. Somehow, Luka learns the truth, maybe when he finds Lucy's diary. Now, if he's from the future, I'm not sure how he goes back in time to steal the time machine... so maybe he's not from the future... ooooh or maybe Lucy travels to the future at some point in order to *get* him and bring him back which sets the whole thing in motion. Anyway, idea not fully fleshed out yet, but somehow Luka gets Lucy's diary and proceeds to start to try to fix the timeline. The *real* bad guy sends Lucy (why Lucy? Because she's his daughter and they think he won't hurt her?) to stop him, in order to retain the altered timeline they created.

If he's not her father, he could be her son... but given the McGuffin about her Secret!Father, I suspect he's the daddy.

[KaveDweller]

3 minutes ago, tankgirl73 said:

But it's not the original, it's a tampered-with timeline. Somehow, Luka learns the truth, maybe when he finds Lucy's diary. Now, if he's from the future, I'm not sure how he goes back in time to steal the time machine... so maybe he's not from the future... ooooh or maybe Lucy travels to the future at some point in order to *get* him and bring him back which sets the whole thing in motion. Anyway, idea not fully fleshed out yet, but somehow Luka gets Lucy's diary and proceeds to start to try to fix the timeline. The *real* bad guy sends Lucy (why Lucy? Because she's his daughter and they think he won't hurt her?) to stop him, in order to retain the altered timeline they created.

If he's not her father, he could be her son... but given the McGuffin about her Secret!Father, I suspect he's the daddy.

Maybe in the future time travel is common and it was super easy for him to pop back to 2016, where the future history books will document the first time machine existing? Or he's from really far in the future, got stuck in the past and had to wait until 2016 to steal the machine. While he waited, he got Lucy's mom pregnant. But that doesn't explain why he then went backwards once he got access to the time machine, and is sort of a rip off of a storyline from the Flash.

But once time travel is established as possible, it is easy to explain the existence of multiple time machines. If one person can build one, so can someone else. The diary is going to be tough to explain. They set up that the picture in Lucy's necklace didn't change (a la the pictures in Back to the Future), so that means anything that the travelers have with them (or maybe even anything in the time machine) doesn't disappear. That's the only way the diary could exist.

[bros402]

15 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Although their scramble for names and using things from pop culture is amusing, you'd think that if they're trying to not upset the timeline, that would be something they'd prepare in advance. It wouldn't take too long to do a search on the most common given names for people of that age in that era and find some last names, with a search to make sure no one with that full name had made any impact on history. Now that they know they're going to be doing this repeatedly, it would make sense for them to come up with a few standard aliases that are safe to use in various eras. There are some names that have been consistently used for the past few hundred years that wouldn't stand out in any time period that they could use whenever they go. They shouldn't be standing there going, "Uhhhhhh," when asked their names while in the past.

I was thinking that in both episodes so far.

Also, that they should carry textbooks in the Eyeball to compare each new history they create.

Well, history texts on a tablet, at least.

[thuganomics85]

Ah, the Lincoln assassination!  Might as well go ahead and get one of the more obvious stories out of the way, complete with the trio debating wherever to save him or not.  On one hand, yeah, usually changing anything on timeline is a risky idea that will effect almost everyone.  But this is one of those times that I can understand all the hesitation, because I do like to believe Lincoln living longer would have made the country better in the long run.  But I knew it was not to be, although it at least didn't get worse.  For a second, I thought he, Ulysses S. Grant, and Robert Lincoln would all end up biting it.  Instead, it the big change is that Flynn goes down as the killer, while John Wilkes Booth is just the guy behind the conspiracy.  Ah, time travel!

Really enjoying Lucy more, or maybe it's mainly just Abigail Spencer, and Rufus continues to get most of the best lines ("So this is like Donnie Wahlberg assassinating the president?")  Wyatt is still dull, but at least he isn't annoying too much, just mainly wallpaper.

Lucy finding out that her father really isn't her father really makes me think they're going to head down the "Flynn is her real father" thing, somehow.  At the very least, he will be related to her somehow.  He seems to go out of his way to confront her and even hesitated for a few seconds, when he saw she was in theater box with Lincoln and crew.  There is some kind of personal history between them.

Mason is coming off really shady in these two episodes.  I imagine there is a lot more going on here then meets the eye. 

Flynn may be a murderous dick, but I was loving his annoyed reactions over John Wilkes Booth almost ruining everything by his need to make the assassination over-theatrical.  Flynn ain't got time for your dramatic speeches, Booth!

Still enjoying it, but definitely "turn off your brain" kind of television at the moment.

[crowsworks]

Have the not-too-forceful Delta Force guy watch some time travel movies and go to some long lived law firm, or western union or whatever and mail himself a  letter about his wife with the date and how she dies.  

[jzygayle]

16 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Of course they travelled to an era where you couldn't go to a store a buy a dress.  You bought cloth and made it yourself, or went to a dress maker and had one made.  Either way, it took days.  The sewing machine hadn't been invented yet.  But we'll hand wave about that......

I didn't recognize the fiancee either and thought he would surely be someone we'd seen before.

Actually, the first sewing machine was invented in 1790, and in the 1850s and 1860s, Wheeler and Wilson were the top sewing machine manufacturing company in the world, after the invention of the rotary hook which was a huge improvement on the transverse shuttle and vibrating shuttle machines of the time.

[dr pepper]

Welp, this week on "Time Traveling While Black", we discover that an organization that can find costumes for the critical mission of doing whatever turns out to need doing, doesn't bother coming up with aliases ahead of time, let alone even the outline of a back story. What unit are you from? Actually, i'm in the home guard militia, but they sent here to help keep order during the festivities.

[dr pepper]

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Also, if the past keeps getting altered, isn't it possible that time travel never gets invented?

 

That's Niven's Paradox. Or, as Larry Niven originally stated: "If it is possible to change the past, then time travel will never be invented." The reasoning is that in an infinity of time, every moment in history is simultaneously a target, causing continuous fluctuation of events, which in turn instantly resolves itself to the timeline in which there is no time travel, and therefor no flux.

[Mermaid Under]

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I actually like the speedy pace of the show. I noticed that right away in the pilot, that they weren't messing about dragging things out (with the exception of the mystery of Flynn's intentions).

Then I missed the explanation of why the black mad scientist was making one of the lab mice record Lucy and the widower.  That seemed like an unexplained phenomena, along with Rittenhouse or whatever the name that must not be mentioned.  And why the female mad scientist/secret agent picked Lucy, which Flynn told her was no accident.

I've recorded both episodes and will likely continue.  But I probably shouldn't bother to comment because (after finding out what moment in history they are going back to) I skip to the end just to find out how Lucy's life has been screwed with.   That's all that interests me.  Whatever happens, I know Lucy will find Flynn and chat with him, the team will stop his plans, but not kill Flynn or the show will be over.  Since I don't think the show will last more than one season, they should be thinking of way to wrap this up.

[tankgirl73]

From the first episode recap: "Garcia Flynn (By the way, you've got a Croatian actor playing a guy with a Spanish first name and an Irish last name?"

I wanted to bring this up as well. Definitely an odd name. And it's not that they're having Luka's character not be eastern european either, which would be one way to explain it (ie, just because the actor is from a particular country doesn't mean his character has to be). In *this* episode, when asked about the weapons he was providing for the conspirators, he said he was Prussian -- eastern european.

So now I'm wondering if "Garcia Flynn" is a fake name. Just as poorly and randomly thought up as the fake names our lead characters are coming up with each week. Indeed maybe their poor naming skills are supposed to be a clue to the fakeness of Flynn's name.

Maybe his real name is Rittenhaus...

Or maybe he chose that name because it's what is in Lucy's diary. Closed time loop.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, tankgirl73 said:

From the first episode recap: "Garcia Flynn (By the way, you've got a Croatian actor playing a guy with a Spanish first name and an Irish last name?"

I wanted to bring this up as well. Definitely an odd name. And it's not that they're having Luka's character not be eastern european either, which would be one way to explain it (ie, just because the actor is from a particular country doesn't mean his character has to be). In *this* episode, when asked about the weapons he was providing for the conspirators, he said he was Prussian -- eastern european.

So now I'm wondering if "Garcia Flynn" is a fake name. Just as poorly and randomly thought up as the fake names our lead characters are coming up with each week. Indeed maybe their poor naming skills are supposed to be a clue to the fakeness of Flynn's name.

Maybe his real name is Rittenhaus...

Or maybe he chose that name because it's what is in Lucy's diary. Closed time loop.

Maybe his name is a clue that he's from the future? There are many names today that would sound strange to our ancestors.

[Raja]

The panic mission planning is bugging me. They are supposed to know history but they just grab any Civil War buff's uniform and send a Black Sergeant in with a White Corporal tagging along. 

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, tankgirl73 said:

The real bad guy (or organization) is this secret name, which escapes me at the moment, that they're not allowed to say out loud or acknowledge the existence of.

Voldemort. Hee.

I've decided the only way to enjoy watching this is to ignore the time-travel rules. It makes it a lot easier. Heh. I'm already tired of the structure of the show, where we see the lead up to whatever needs to be changed and then we go to the team prepping. The events so far have been big enough that someone could say "Hindenburg disaster or Lincoln's assassination" and everyone has the basic outline. It'd be more interesting if the team had to go back to a lesser-known event and stop it.

[orza]

9 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I've decided the only way to enjoy watching this is to ignore the time-travel rules. It makes it a lot easier. Heh. I'm already tired of the structure of the show, where we see the lead up to whatever needs to be changed and then we go to the team prepping. The events so far have been big enough that someone could say "Hindenburg disaster or Lincoln's assassination" and everyone has the basic outline. It'd be more interesting if the team had to go back to a lesser-known event and stop it.

A new show has to attract an audience. The Hindenburg disaster was a good choice to start with because everyone knows about it and it for the exploding airship is an iconic spectacle that people will tune in for.. Same with Lincoln's assassination. An obscure event involving historical figures most people are not familiar with is not a good hook to get people watching. They can do the lesser-known events or change it up once the viewership and ratings have stabilized.

[withanaich]

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Have the not-too-forceful Delta Force guy watch some time travel movies and go to some long lived law firm, or western union or whatever and mail himself a  letter about his wife with the date and how she dies.  

Ugh, damn. That is totally what he's going to do, isn't it? But I love that you called him "not-too-forceful Delta Force guy," hee. That's what I'm going to call him when I inevitably forget his name again. 

[dubbel zout]

44 minutes ago, orza said:

They can do the lesser-known events or change it up once the viewership and ratings have stabilized.

I understand needing big events to get the audience interested. I just don't want to see the team go back only for the big stuff.

[Lugal]

I'm liking Lucy and Rufus and still warming up to Wyatt, he doesn't seem to have anything to do except be the soldier-type.  Their mission could have been stretched out over two episodes.  I agree with whoever said the show seems rather unambitious with regards to its premise.

I have to say the team needs to be better prepared, since they seem to go back and make up things on the fly.  Although the higher-ups seem to have an odd "Ehh, good enough" attitude toward time travel and changing history.  I'm still not sure if they're really the good guys.  My crazy speculation: our crappy present is a creation of Rittenhouse and Flynn is trying to set it back to something better.

[GoMocs]

They said in week 1 if they run into themselves in the past it can have severe consequences. Okay..assuming that premise. They want to kill this Flynn guy...they are obviously willing to kill him. So, why not go back to when he is an infant, they can pick a time and place when they know they can't run into "themselves" or they could hire a killer who wasn't born when this Flynn was an infant. Kill the infant Flynn, problem solved.....oh wait...no show then?

[sjohnson]

It hadn't occurred to me, but the bosses will never be too eager to try to undo any shortcomings or errors that changed the timeline, as reported to them when the travelers return. In their perspective, there's no change. And the idea of changing things is like the idea of erasing themselves. 

GoMocs asked "Kill the infant Flynn, problem solved.....oh wait...no show then?" Well, if there's no Garcia Flynn, who stole the fancy time machine? Changing the past doesn't work as physics because it's the spacetime continuum, not the same space at different times. But it's not a logical paradox unless the change somehow keeps the change agent from going back in time to make the change. The grandfather paradox is paradoxical because if the change is successful, there's no grandson to go back in time and kill the grandfather. Causal loops like 12 Monkeys (the movie) are at least logically consistent. (There can be surreptitious problems with physical consistency, such as aged plans for a time machine, which someone builds, then sends the aged plans back in time...except there's only so long the plans can age before they fall to pieces.)

Edited October 12, 2016 by sjohnson

[GoMocs]

SJohnson, but, if you kill the infant Flynn, the time machines are still built, just never stolen.  They return to the present, check the records and see that a mystery man killed a child named Flynn....but as I said...that tv series doesn't last too long :)

[saber5055]

Thanks to everyone who pointed out that the bunker people only remember the present/changed history and not the original history. I'm easily distracted and completely missed that. But now my big question is, what's wrong with changing history? Sure, that'll change the present, but so what? What's the difference if history is THIS history or THAT history? I don't get it. So I'm all for saving the Hindenburg, saving Lincoln, saving whomever and whatever. I just can't follow the big argument about not changing anything. Why? And yeah, the Flying Eyeball doesn't "fly" per se, but it streaks in and out of time, so that's flying to me, just like the Doctor's tardus sails through time and space.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Timeless Attends History's All-Time Worst Night Out At The Theatre

But after a shaky start, we get something worth remembering.

[AV8n]

"Get the time machine ready, Rufus! Flynn has gone to 1965 Selma, Alabama, to try and stop the march. Might want to pack some Aspirin. I'm just sayin'."

Poor Rufus! Pretty much the only way time travel works in his favor is if they go back to pre-colonial Africa. But even then, he wouldn't know the language or customs. So yeah, time travel pretty much always sucks for Rufus.

It'a really starting to look like Flynn and company aren't the bad guys, as Ebony Elon brings up the mysterious Rittenhouse organization. Not sure how Team Flynn trying to kill so many people makes them "good".

Finally, Lucy was chosen for this thing because she's such a kickass historian, right? But the first episode made it sound like her mother was an even better historian. So how come in the altered timeline where Mom is cancer-free did she not replace Lucy? Were they worried about sending her back to a time where smoking was socially acceptable?

[GoMocs]

Saber55....think of a road with other roads turning off of it, history has seen us gone down a road with certain turns made. Lets suppose we made different turns or even better, lets suppose this guy Flynn went back to early 1940s and gave Hitler the technology to built hydrogen bombs. Nazis would rule the world, Jews would be extinct...anything wrong with that change?

Didn't mean "even better" to say its preferred, but to make a more distinct point for the argument. I am NOT saying that outcome would be good, it would not.

[snarktini]

I do think it's different to save a sister / wife / journalist than Abe. Saving one person (or even 34) would change the fabric of universe but it isn't likely that person is so pivotal that the world would unravel as a result. But saving President Lincoln?! I'm with Lucy on this, the US could be totally unrecognizable. That's a sea change, not a ripple. It could transform our government, our culture, and an entire generation, multiplied across 150 years. The time is pretty important there -- correcting a more recent event (like 9/11) would be less dangerous because it would only affect current generations and adults' existences wouldn't be wiped out. It would still be a BFD, though. The unintended consequences are immeasurable.

If you want to save Abe for the greater good, okay, but be prepared to vanish from existence or be stranded in the past. 

ETA: In apocalyptic alt-timelines, characters often make this choice because "nothing could be worse than what we have". It can be the right choice. Not here. I'd love to save Lincoln, that was one of the biggest tragedies of our country. But to take millions of lives into your hands without a compelling reason to believe the net outcome will be better is crazy.

Edited October 12, 2016 by snarktini

[Clanstarling]

23 minutes ago, snarktini said:

The unintended consequences are immeasurable.

As true in real life as it is in fictional time travel. You make an excellent point about changing some of the pivotal events of this century, as opposed to past centuries.

[Cranberry]

We had to hide a couple of posts about racism today. You're free to discuss and debate the topic, but keep it civil -- no personal attacks. Thanks!

[Jordan27]

I really liked it.  The one problem is what most have said.  Trying to change time for the better is not a good idea. 

And not only is Luka causing trouble, but our gang going back to stop him is causing a lot of damage.

I did like the period piece and look forward to more of this.  The acting is good, but the show after a couple of more eps will have to go in a different direction than Luka tries to change time and our gang goes back to stop him.

[tankgirl73]

3 hours ago, AV8n said:

Finally, Lucy was chosen for this thing because she's such a kickass historian, right? But the first episode made it sound like her mother was an even better historian. So how come in the altered timeline where Mom is cancer-free did she not replace Lucy? Were they worried about sending her back to a time where smoking was socially acceptable?

I suspect she was *not* chosen simple because of her historical expertise. That's just the cover story. So if her mom is even more of an expert, that's irrelevant... they chose Lucy because she's some sort of 'chosen one'. 

If, for instance, she's actually Flynn's daughter, then that could indeed be *why* she became a historian in the first place. Some sort of genetic compulsion.

What I'm wondering about now, though, is something someone else brought up but it didn't really get followed up on -- what happened to the Lucy from the new timeline? *FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE BUNKER*, history was always this way... Lincoln was always assassinated by a mysterious man and Juliette Shakesman saved the general. They conscripted a girl named Lucy, who *had no sister* and had a perfectly healthy mother. THAT Lucy went into the time machine with the other guys and then when the time machine came back, it was a different Lucy, from a different timeline.

From their point of view, nothing changed, she just fulfilled history to work out as it always had. Their world has stayed the same -- but their Lucy came back different.

Of course time travel stories must take certain conventions which ultimately defy logic when looked at too closely, and that's fine. But this is - for me at least - a new way of looking at it. Maybe because I'm used to Doctor Who type stories, where (generally speaking) history doesn't actually change, but their roles in history are merely fulfilled... closed loop. Or like Harry Potter's time travelling - his 'first time' through the loop, he sees the effects of his second time through the loop. His future time travelling has already happened... it's always happened.

Then there are things like City on the Edge of Forever... McCoy travels back in time and saves Edith Keeler, who spreads peace and ironically thus ensures Hitler's victory, and in Kirk's present (our future) the Federation never existed. The landing party only still exists because of some time bubble effect around the Guardian, or some such technobabble. So Kirk and Spock travel back to stop him, and allow Keeler to be killed (much like Lucy's conundrum with Lincoln, in fact - only in Star Trek they already knew the outcome so it was an easier, albeit still gut-wrenching, decision). The timeline is "restored".

Or, is it merely 'fulfilled' in another closed loop? Couldn't it be the case that Kirk and Spock had *always* been there in the past, with McCoy, watching as Keeler died? After all, she was crossing the street to go to them when it happened. She wouldn't have been in the street if they hadn't been there. They were always the cause of her death.

There was a little offshoot timeline, where McCoy alone was there -- he doesn't even have to save her, note... simply Kirk's absence means she wasn't crossing the street at that time. But this little bubble timeline is 'temporary', and is only part of the larger loop. The loop is not completed until Kirk goes back in order to 'pop' that little bubble timeline.

So... maybe the same thing is happening here. Every episode gives us a 'bubble' timeline, which changes great and small. But in the end, there's a final, greater loop at play, which has already played out in our future and is now being fulfilled, step by step. Flynn's notebook (with Lucy's writing) is the detailed play by play of all the little temporary bubble timelines, giving him a map to follow in order to complete the closed loop.

And that's why Lucy is the constant... why *her perspective* is the one that endures. Why no *other* Lucy matters. This particular Lucy is the one that wrote the book. So it's a predestination paradox, really.  Nothing is being changed overall... it's all already happened, and is now merely happening.

[Canada]

I think this show bothers me for a couple of reasons.

In terms of the show and characters, I'm not sure what exactly they're trying to achieve each time they go back in history.  Whatever their purpose is, I'm not sure they ever really achieve it.

Also, I have a fundamental dislike for anyone who wants to change history.  History is what made the world what it is today, both good and bad.  If you go back and change some bad thing, the world will still exist with both good and bad things happening.  That's human nature.  I'm very interested in history, but not in changing it.  We should learn from it and try and change the crap that exists in our present.

[dubbel zout]

20 minutes ago, Canada said:

History is what made the world what it is today, both good and bad.  If you go back and change some bad thing, the world will still exist with both good and bad things happening. 

That would be an interesting discussion for the characters to have.

[iMonrey]

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Of course they traveled to an era where you couldn't go to a store a buy a dress. 

They had dress shops in Chicago in 1865. Not everyone could afford to buy a store-bought dress back then, but they had them. Montgomery Wards has been around since 1872.

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In terms of the show and characters, I'm not sure what exactly they're trying to achieve each time they go back in history.  Whatever their purpose is, I'm not sure they ever really achieve it.

Their stated mission is to capture and/or kill Flynn. He's supposed to be a "terrorist." That's what Wyatt is for. Lucy is there to tell them what's going on in history and Rufus is there to pilot the time machine. Now, given that their goal is to stop Flynn by deadly force if necessary, shouldn't they have armed Lucy by now? She's the one who keeps running into him and chatting him up.

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Since I don't think the show will last more than one season, they should be thinking of way to wrap this up.

Actually it's doing pretty good, ratings-wise. It's not setting the world on fire, exactly, but it's one of the top 25 network shows in total viewers, and that ain't too shabby for NBC. If the ratings hold I'd expect to see a second season.

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

They had dress shops in Chicago in 1865.

And Sears Roebuck catalogs, which many small storekeepers used to source merchandise for their store.

[ketose]

17 hours ago, dr pepper said:

 

That's Niven's Paradox. Or, as Larry Niven originally stated: "If it is possible to change the past, then time travel will never be invented." The reasoning is that in an infinity of time, every moment in history is simultaneously a target, causing continuous fluctuation of events, which in turn instantly resolves itself to the timeline in which there is no time travel, and therefor no flux.

That's what happened in Continuum. The future was reset in a way that the man who invented time travel no longer felt the need to invent it.

 

5 hours ago, tankgirl73 said:

I suspect she was *not* chosen simple because of her historical expertise. That's just the cover story. So if her mom is even more of an expert, that's irrelevant... they chose Lucy because she's some sort of 'chosen one'. 

If, for instance, she's actually Flynn's daughter, then that could indeed be *why* she became a historian in the first place. Some sort of genetic compulsion.

What I'm wondering about now, though, is something someone else brought up but it didn't really get followed up on -- what happened to the Lucy from the new timeline? *FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE BUNKER*, history was always this way... Lincoln was always assassinated by a mysterious man and Juliette Shakesman saved the general. They conscripted a girl named Lucy, who *had no sister* and had a perfectly healthy mother. THAT Lucy went into the time machine with the other guys and then when the time machine came back, it was a different Lucy, from a different timeline.

From their point of view, nothing changed, she just fulfilled history to work out as it always had. Their world has stayed the same -- but their Lucy came back different.

Of course time travel stories must take certain conventions which ultimately defy logic when looked at too closely, and that's fine. But this is - for me at least - a new way of looking at it. Maybe because I'm used to Doctor Who type stories, where (generally speaking) history doesn't actually change, but their roles in history are merely fulfilled... closed loop. Or like Harry Potter's time travelling - his 'first time' through the loop, he sees the effects of his second time through the loop. His future time travelling has already happened... it's always happened.

Then there are things like City on the Edge of Forever... McCoy travels back in time and saves Edith Keeler, who spreads peace and ironically thus ensures Hitler's victory, and in Kirk's present (our future) the Federation never existed. The landing party only still exists because of some time bubble effect around the Guardian, or some such technobabble. So Kirk and Spock travel back to stop him, and allow Keeler to be killed (much like Lucy's conundrum with Lincoln, in fact - only in Star Trek they already knew the outcome so it was an easier, albeit still gut-wrenching, decision). The timeline is "restored".

Or, is it merely 'fulfilled' in another closed loop? Couldn't it be the case that Kirk and Spock had *always* been there in the past, with McCoy, watching as Keeler died? After all, she was crossing the street to go to them when it happened. She wouldn't have been in the street if they hadn't been there. They were always the cause of her death.

There was a little offshoot timeline, where McCoy alone was there -- he doesn't even have to save her, note... simply Kirk's absence means she wasn't crossing the street at that time. But this little bubble timeline is 'temporary', and is only part of the larger loop. The loop is not completed until Kirk goes back in order to 'pop' that little bubble timeline.

So... maybe the same thing is happening here. Every episode gives us a 'bubble' timeline, which changes great and small. But in the end, there's a final, greater loop at play, which has already played out in our future and is now being fulfilled, step by step. Flynn's notebook (with Lucy's writing) is the detailed play by play of all the little temporary bubble timelines, giving him a map to follow in order to complete the closed loop.

And that's why Lucy is the constant... why *her perspective* is the one that endures. Why no *other* Lucy matters. This particular Lucy is the one that wrote the book. So it's a predestination paradox, really.  Nothing is being changed overall... it's all already happened, and is now merely happening.

The closed loop was a major aspect of Babylon 5 where certain events had to be orchestrated because they already happened and needed to happen every time.

[bros402]

13 hours ago, AV8n said:

It'a really starting to look like Flynn and company aren't the bad guys, as Ebony Elon brings up the mysterious Rittenhouse organization. Not sure how Team Flynn trying to kill so many people makes them "good".

Finally, Lucy was chosen for this thing because she's such a kickass historian, right? But the first episode made it sound like her mother was an even better historian. So how come in the altered timeline where Mom is cancer-free did she not replace Lucy? Were they worried about sending her back to a time where smoking was socially acceptable?

Welp. There's the name I am going to call him until I remember his name. Ebony Elon. Thanks! :D

[Kelda Feegle]

15 hours ago, withanaich said:

Ugh, damn. That is totally what he's going to do, isn't it? But I love that you called him "not-too-forceful Delta Force guy," hee. That's what I'm going to call him when I inevitably forget his name again. 

I have been calling him Nathan Fillion Lite ?

[withanaich]

13 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

14 hours ago, Canada said:

History is what made the world what it is today, both good and bad.  If you go back and change some bad thing, the world will still exist with both good and bad things happening. 

That would be an interesting discussion for the characters to have.

I think that's what Lucy tried to express when she was trying to explain to not-too-forceful Delta Force guy why they shouldn't try to save the woman who looked like his wife, or his actual wife, or even Abraham Lincoln. (They don't have the benefit of knowing what we suspect, that their timeline might not even be the "right" one, so maybe it's not crucial that they preserve it.) Then, of course, Lucy admitted that faced with the real possibility, she WAS going to at least try to save Lincoln. I really loved that moment, and that she admitted it, because usually we see the scientist sort of character on these sci-fi expeditions taking a hard line about what is and is not acceptable. This showed that while Lucy might be a historian who understands the implications of time travel and their behavior in the past (unlike Private I Do What I Want Why Not), she's also only human.

[Chaos Theory]

I guess it comes down to whether you like alternate reality fiction or not.  Tv I would recommend Sliders.  The first few seasons aren't half bad.  As for books some are pretty good as well.  I actually liked Fatherland the usual Nazis win WWII tale.  Anyway my point is Timeless is shaping up to be part time travel part alternate reality which is kinda fascinating but not to everyone's tastes but falls square in my wheelhouse.  If any show gets a second season so far I am hoping it is this one.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[saber5055]

Gomocs said: "think of a road with other roads turning off of it, history has seen us gone down a road with certain turns made. Lets suppose we made different turns or even better, lets suppose this guy Flynn went back to early 1940s and gave Hitler the technology to built hydrogen bombs. Nazis would rule the world, Jews would be extinct...anything wrong with that change?" But what if Flynn changes history and Hitler never comes into power, or is killed ... or never born? Changing history isn't necessarily a bad thing. As far as we know, WE are living in a changed timeline! So I say, change all you can, Lucy and you other guys. What's the diff? We'd never know.

My thought is, one should try to always save people from death, when and if one can do that. And Lucy had the perfect chance to save Lincoln.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

9 hours ago, Kelda Feegle said:

I have been calling him Nathan Fillion Lite ?

Captain Not-So-Tight Pants.

[Canada]

I like the idea of this show, but the reality is that it's not really working.  The premise is that this team was put together to capture Flynn.  However, if they were successful, there's no TV show anymore.  So the continuation of the series hangs on them failing each week to catch Flynn.  They were also told not to change history, yet each week they also fail miserably with that task.  You would think, after their first episode adventures that Lucy of all people would realise the importance of not screwing with history (i.e. the disappearance of her sister) and yet she still attempted to change history in the Lincoln storyline.  These people don't seem very smart, considering they're tasked with saving the world as they know it.

[iMonrey]

Quote

My thought is, one should try to always save people from death, when and if one can do that.

Stephen King's 11/22/63 is based on the idea of going back and saving JFK. Ironically, it turns out 

Spoiler

America turns to crap when JFK is saved.

So, saving someone "good" isn't necessarily going to improve things.

I'll be interested to see if this show really spells out its own rules for time travel. For instance, twice now Lucy and her pals have traveled into the past and returned to find an alternate timeline. Does that mean the first two timelines still exist as parallels, or does it mean they were wiped out?

Whether the show is making a deliberate choice or not, it seems to be suggesting the latter - that they have been wiped out. They've said they can't go back for a "do-over" because they can't go back to a time where they already exist. If the original timeline still existed they could return to 1937 or 1865 without finding themselves there because they weren't there in the original timeline. They exist in 1937 and 1865 only in the alternate timeline they've created by traveling there. 

On the other hand, they should be able to travel back to 1937 or 1865 before the time they arrived there before. Like, just an hour earlier this time. Because that would bring them back to the original timeline, before they arrived and altered it. 

This may actually be giving it more thought than the writers have, I fully realize. While it's only been two episodes, so far the show seems oriented more towards formulaic action-adventure than thought provoking theory.

[Granny58]

On 10/11/2016 at 4:57 AM, shapeshifter said:

Having watched and enjoyed the new show Frequency this week in which the female lead discovers that by manipulating the past, her fiancé has a different fiancee and doesn't know her at all, it was ironic to see the opposite result on this show, in which the female lead returns to her own time on the night of her engagement party to discover she has a fiance, whom she has never seen before. Whenever these kind of similarities happen, I can't help but wonder if the networks have spies to see what each other is working on — which might make an interesting-if-soapy show in itself.

Frequency was my favorite new show, but this one is winning me over, mostly because of the realistic emotions as they are written, directed, and performed. I wonder if Lucy's attraction to Lincoln's son was a factor in her gaining a fiance in 2016 — like it changed her and made her more willing to form a close human bond.

Everytime they park the time machine in the past, I'm reminded of how that didn't work so well for SG1. I fully expect it to get boarded by hostile locals at some point.

I wonder that too, especially when last week two medical shows had black transgender characters, male to female, who had prostate cancer.  Come on...that can't be a coincidence.

[BooBear]

3 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

I wonder that too, especially when last week two medical shows had black transgender characters, male to female, who had prostate cancer.  Come on...that can't be a coincidence.

Coming to the ABC's TGIT next year, a Shonda Rimes production "Network Spy" 

[TVHappy9463]

Still liking this show.  It got a little after school special with the black soldier story line.  Goran V is the strongest actor on the show, he electrifies the screen whenever he is on it, and we need him on it more.  I think he is Lucy's father in another timeline, and the wife and daughter that died are her and her mother, and Ritenhouse is like the Third Reich and caused a war.  

I am not sure how they are going to sustain the story telling, for multiple seasons. Even Eric Kripke eventually flamed out on Supernatural and I loved Supernatural.  Let's see if he does better with this.  

On completely shallow note, if Matt Lantner is going to be shirtless every week he needs to work out.  Exhibit A, B, and C are Nate on HTGAWM, Oliver on Arrow and Justin Hartely on This Is Us.