S05.E01: Legacy

[Last Time Lord]

I think I actually liked this more than Flash's premiere. If nothing else, the episode seemed to flow better, to the point when it was over, I was surprised the episode had ended, already.

Not surprised that the SCPD CSI guy  seen earlier in the episode with Felicity. When do they ever show anything with SCPD's CSI?

The evil archer at the end impressed me more than Church did this episode. And speaking of Villains, was that Anarky at the beginning? I would love to see him get a more pronounced role in the series.

[Chaser]

Thea was named MVP by two people and Curtis was the second for one. I don't get it at all.

[EmeraldArcher]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

Did Laurel really say "Don't let me be the last Canary?" I saw it on my twitter feed. 

If so, WTF, Sara's still the Canary and has been the Canary long before that dumbass ever put on a mask. That name means something to Sara not to her, maybe let her have a say if anyone random noob can just start using it. 

She did.  She really is just the worst.

I wish you hadn't reminded me about Sara, who got a pine box and a secret burial. Sara, who earned the name Canary through the worst sort of tribulation. Sara, who nurtured a canary when she was but a child and protected women when she was more than a killer. Sara, who was willing to sacrifice herself for her family.

Laurel was nothing, and now they pretend she was everything.

[Angel12d]

10 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Did Laurel really say "Don't let me be the last Canary?" I saw it on my twitter feed. 

If so, WTF, Sara's still the Canary and has been the Canary long before that dumbass ever put on a mask. That name means something to Sara not to her, maybe let her have a say if anyone random noob can just start using it. 

Yep. But seeing as Laurel basically Single White Female-ed Sara's hero identity, it's not really a stretch that she probably forgot there was actually another Canary in existence. She probably thought she was her, you know, because she 'became' her sister. 

Yikes.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Angel12d

[Lantern7]

I'm okay with the episode, even with the flogging of Laurel, a character who was a drag on the show. How funny would it be if somebody with enhanced strength tries to kill Oliver with the statue? At least he's not a dumbass like Barry. Or Rip.

The new boyfriend: dead, evil, or both? No way does he make it to the end of the season.

I think recruiting a new team is a bit dubious, especially when one of the candidates is Wild Dog. And Curtis. I know, he has to go canon someday, but is there anything special about him beyond bring Felicity's sidekick?

Charon is cool so far. Took me a while to warm up to Dark, and I still insist on misspelling his name. Also, I'm thinking of the new ear archer as "Merlgoblin." Who's with me?

ETA: I know Curtis' canon counterpart was an Olympian. Don't remember his deal. Still think his huge brain would be best served at Felicity's side.

[benteen]

1 minute ago, Lantern7 said:

I'm okay with the episode, even with the flogging of Laurel, a character who was a drag on the show. How funny would it be if somebody with enhanced strength tries to kill Oliver with the statue? At least he's not a dumbass like Barry. Or Rip.

The new boyfriend: dead, evil, or both? No way does he make it to the end of the season.

i think recruiting a new team is a bit dubious, especially when one of the candidates is Wild Dog. And Curtis. I know, he has to go canon someday, but is there anything special about him beyond bring Felicity's sidekick?

Charon is cool so far. Took me a while to warm up to Dark, and I still insist on misspelling his name. Also, I'm thinking of the new ear archer as "Merlgoblin." Who's with me?

Curtis was an Olympic athlete and can do flips and stuff.  No know fighting skills though.

[catrox14]

I get all floopy  when Oliver calls Diggle "John". It's so sincere and intimate.  I just love it.

Edited October 6, 2016 by catrox14

[Chaser]

So the BF.

I'm glad I was spoiled because I got to the point where I just don't care. I was mostly disappointed that there wasn't a twist. I was so certain there had to be a twist. Still don't think the BF will amount to anything.

I loved all the Olicity in episode, BF be damned. Seriously laughing at the reviews who said there was no Olicity. There was so much.

The bromance at the end was heartwarming. 

[way2interested]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

So the BF.

I'm glad I was spoiled because I got to the point where I just don't care. I was mostly disappointed that there wasn't a twist. I was so certain there had to be a twist. Still don't think the BF will amount to anything.

I'm thinking that the bf was supposed to be the twist, so I was pretty glad that this one was actually spoiled.

[dtissagirl]

The ArrowWriters tweeted something like "wait, that's not Oliver" when the camera finally panned up and revealed glued hair dude, so I'm thinking the intention was for folks to think those minuscule hands were Oliver's, but ooops, ~twist.

I won't be surprised if wanting to tweet that is the sole reason Felicity is dating Mayo.

Edited October 6, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Angel12d]

I can imagine if you don't read spoilers that Felicity having a new bf was a bit of a shock, especially as they seem to be living together. Like, WTF. Makes no sense. And the fact that the Arrow writers were like "Wait...that's not Oliver!" on Twitter shows exactly what they did it for. Pathetic. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Angel12d

[Chaser]

Lame duck twist. Lame duck ending. I was underwhelmed by Prometheus' entrance. I don't care that he killed someone. I don't care about that someone.

Also, they basically ended the episode with Olicity. I'm not saying it means something, but it means something.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Chaser

[way2interested]

Honestly liked this episode way more than I thought I was. Flashbacks were good. Liked the Lance/Thea scene, Olicity stuff, Diggle/Oliver, stunts, the villains, the keep moving forward theme.

Also, I was surprised at how the bothersome stuff in the episode end up not really bothering me as much as I thought they would. Oliver was a bit kill-happy, but not as flamboyantly killing as I was fearing. The bf scene was bad but pretty quick (also side note: even though it seems evident that Oliver doesn't know about him, he wasn't as naively "hopeful" as the reviews/recaps were leading me to believe.). Laurel mentions were annoying but not as prominent/"important" as they were in the last few episodes of s4, etc. 

So kind of a normal episode of Arrow to me, not really anything better, but not the worst things they've ever put out.

[SmallScreenDiva]

27 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

ETA: I know Curtis' canon counterpart was an Olympian. Don't remember his deal. Still think his huge brain would be best served at Felicity's side.

Yeah, but he's a dude so add that to a comic book name and he automatically gets a mask in the Arrowverse. *rme*

[Chaser]

17 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

The ArrowWriters tweeted something like "wait, that's not Oliver" when the camera finally panned up and revealed glued hair dude, so I'm thinking the intention was for folks to think those minuscule hands were Oliver's, but ooops, ~twist.

I won't be surprised if wanting to tweet that is the sole reason Felicity is dating Mayo.

My favorite thing about that is that normally when they tweet anything about Felicity and Olicity is gets a lot of traction, this one landed with a thud.

[Angel12d]

You know, Felicity looked pretty damn amazing and pretty happy for someone supposedly burdened with the guilt of Havenrock. *eye roll* 

[apinknightmare]

24 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I'm thinking that the bf was supposed to be the twist, so I was pretty glad that this one was actually spoiled.

Yeah. I'm not sure if it's because it was spoiled or out of left field or people assuming it's Flashpoint or whatever, but that's one "twist" that doesn't seem to be getting a whole lot of traction. It hasn't even been spared much more than a sentence in any of the reviews I've read.

[Jediknight]

49 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Did Laurel really say "Don't let me be the last Canary?" I saw it on my twitter feed. 

If so, WTF, Sara's still the Canary and has been the Canary long before that dumbass ever put on a mask. That name means something to Sara not to her, maybe let her have a say if anyone random noob can just start using it. 

Well, Sara is running around time, which Laurel knows,  So they can't exactly call up Sara and ask her.  Also the name does mean something to Laurel, since it was her sister's name.

Great, we're back to Oliver killing people.

[Last Time Lord]

24 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I was underwhelmed by Prometheus' entrance.

STAY AWAY, ROY! JUST STAY AWAY!

[Chaser]

Why don't we have a new BC? 

Oliver makes this promise to Laurel on her not-death bed months ago and nothing comes of it. He is out there just killing people which apparently BizarroLaurel wouldn't want instead of doing the thing StalkerLaurel wants but the whole episode is supposed to be about honoring her legacy. It takes Felicity putting together a new Team (as much as I wish we had gotten a glimpse of her arc, she actually did a hell of a lot in this episode) and Diggle giving it his approval for Oliver to actually do it. This episode made about as much sense as Laurel.

 

Spoiler

It kind of makes me wonder if Artemis will get the name Black Canary later on.

[Coop33]

The retconning in this episode almost made me as dizzy as Bamford's directing. Although I do think most of the actual stunt work was a marked improvement. 

The flashbacks were also better, and I hope they can continue to actually be interesting throughout the season.

Laurel has gotten more posthumous attention than Moira or Tommy have combined, which is straight up ridiculous. Her wish to not be the last Canary was odd to say the least, though I enjoyed Steve's inability to look like he cared about it at all.

Oliver/Diggle and Oliver/Felicity scenes were the best for me. There is just such a drastic improvement in every aspect of the show when these characters are together.

I'm glad I was spoiled about Felicity's new jar of mayo. It reeks of writing to shock, rather than story which is always a problem with these writers. I'm waiting to withhold judgment on the whole thing until we know how long the new bf will actually be around. 

[quarks]

And low expectations win again! I liked the episode!

Good things:

1. Explosions! People leaping into helicopters! Banter! Trick arrows! Yes, Arrow is back again!

2. Someone, in show, commented on how bad Oliver's Russian is. I laughed.

3. Anatoly! Good to see you again! On a related note, flashbacks that seem to have a purpose and remember events from the first season! Also good to see you again!

4. Anarky! Also good to see you again! 

5. Curtis is a full member of Team Arrow now, not just a computer repair guy. Yay! 

6. Felicity's wardrobe was spectacular. And she seemed to be back to her zingy self. 

7. I know I wasn't supposed to laugh, but when the bad guys decided to interrupt a ceremony meant to assure us that Laurel was a great person who helped to save the city, and started shooting every one, I cracked up. I'm counting laughter as a good thing here.

8. Speaking of which, I laughed a lot more during this episode than in last night's episode of the supposedly lighter Flash - often intentionally.  Again, counting that as a plus.

9. Loved the continued Arrow tradition of Oliver shooting wannabe vigilantes in the leg before recruiting him to his team. 

10. The 30 seconds of Dark Arrow guy (calling him that until the name in the spoiler thread is revealed on the show) was pretty effective.

11. I shudder to type this in a forum filled with Olicity shippers after an episode that ended showing us Felicity with a new boyfriend - but this is the sort of Oliver/Felicity banter I actually like: about fighting crime, not dramatic confrontations about lies and secret kids. More of this stuff, please. 

12. Most hopeful part of the episode: Arrow does seem to be back to at least asking the questions about justice, vigilante, and choices, and having people call Oliver out on his choices - or point out the difference between swimming and drowning. I didn't necessarily need the biology lesson, and as usual, Arrow is zipping through a lot of this stuff, without letting certain scenes (particularly the Quentin/Oliver scene by Laurel's statue) breathe enough, but I appreciated the focus.

13. Also liked that this episode established again that for all of Oliver's ongoing attempts to go it alone, he can't - take Diggle away, take the rest of the team away, and even with some random cops trying to help, he's losing it on a number of levels. It's not just a good setup for bringing in a new team, but also for reinforcing several points from the show.

14. And I can't end this section without noticing that a) Oliver took his shirt off again for plot purposes and b) then got tied up. Twice. Thank you for remembering why we watch this show, Arrow.

Questionable things:

1. As a quick sidenote to comments others are making, it wasn't clear to me if a) the boyfriend actually lives there, or if Felicity had given him a key to let himself in since she knew she wouldn't be back until later, and b) whether or not Oliver knows. He didn't tell Diggle that there was no chance: he just said he didn't know. I don't think Oliver does know, but I do want to note that nothing in the episode confirmed that. If he does know - and it's possible, and would explain why Oliver didn't take any of a number of opportunities to physically touch her, he might just be hoping that the boyfriend is temporary or thinks that the boyfriend is temporary, especially since he and Felicity were right back to their old banter and there were a couple moments when she seemed to be flirting with him, or close to flirting with him.  And Felicity did not exactly rush straight to the new guy's arms - she looked sad, and collapsed on the couch. 

So yeah, I didn't have the same feeling about that scene that others did.

2. Arrow writers, over the summer: This season, we're going back to basics! And realism!

Oliver: And in that spirit of realism, I shall SHOOT a parachute arrow.

3. So, unless I was missing something, the only members of Team Arrow with current non-vigilante employment were Oliver and Thea, both earning presumably relatively low municipal salaries, right, given that Star City's tax base must have collapsed by now. So....how exactly is Team Arrow paying the bills? Is Cisco still rich in the revised revised Flashpoint timeline?

4. How does a parachute fit into an arrow shaft?

5. Does Oliver pick his trick arrows based on what he thinks he might encounter on that trip, and if so, what gave him the idea that he would be jumping into a helicopter and would need a parachute?

6. Am I overly focused on this parachute?

7. Did anyone else laugh when Arrow's version of Russia turned out to be a lot of warehouses and dark, poorly lit rooms later used in present day scenes?

8. Tobias Church, please don't get offended just because Oliver doesn't think you have a plan. 90% of the villains on this show never have plans, and the 10% of them that do usually fail. I was totally on Oliver's side here.

9. Uh, Thea, I get that you're really liking the cushy mayoral job, but maybe, just maybe, when the evil guy is taking hostages, including your brother, you set aside your ethics for a moment and try to help rescue them? Especially since if you'd arrived a bit sooner, you and Oliver might have been able to just injure the bad guys, instead of killing them?

10. I know they told us that Oliver's Russian is terrible, but still, why were so many Russians talking in English?  Subtitles can't cost that much.

11. I was about to ask why our two usual reporters were nowhere near the Laurel statue ceremony or Oliver's press conference in the end, and then I realized I was asking the wrong question, since the real question is: why is anyone still going to an outdoor press conference where Oliver Queen will be speaking, given that within the past year alone, his girlfriend was shot and nearly killed, his mayoral debate was attacked, and he was seen standing on cars urging people to do violent stuff right before the streets broke out into violence. I think most reporters would just try to Skype in, for safety.

12. Was that Frank Bertinelli the same Frank Bertinelli from the first and second seasons, and if so, did he come back because of Flashpoint? Because I thought he was dead.

Bad things:

1. One reason to try to cast widely and with a more diverse cast, Arrow, is so that I can actually distinguish between the cops instead of "bland white cop," "bland white cop," and "bland white cop," so that I can tell which bland white cop died at the end there. Or which bland cop was in Felicity's apartment at the end there. It's one thing to do this with the cannon fodder. It's another thing to do this with characters I'm at least vaguely supposed to have an interest in. "Uh, he has a slightly more narrow face" is not going to cut it. 

2. Ok, Arrow. I realize you have limited sets, so full kudos for only pulling this stunt once this episode, but MOVE THE BACKGROUND PROPS between the flashback scenes and the current day scenes, at least. Geesh.

3. Not enough Diggle. I know I say this a lot, but really, this show needs more Diggle.

4. I know I discussed this in the spoiler thread, but I think it bears another mention here:

Arrow writers, given that you've now resorted to asking fans continuity questions, some basic continuity here, thanks. Which is to say, the actual Laurel did not hesitate to kill. In the first season, she was ready to shoot the armed men who were entering her home. In the second season, she shot a man in the back, and urged Oliver to go after Deathstroke. In the third season, she swore she would kill Sara's murderer while standing on her sister's grave. She argued for killing Malcolm Merlyn. She trained with a member of the League of Assassins. When Star City was in trouble again, she didn't go to Barry, who as far as Laurel knows, hasn't killed anyone, but to a man that she knew killed at least 60 people in the first season alone. And as harsh as I've been on her, Laurel was never that stupid - she certainly figured out that Oliver killed a number of other people during the flashbacks.  

Which is to say, while I don't have a problem with Thea's "Stop the killing" argument, and I think it needs to be made, Laurel was the wrong example to use here - for Thea or anyone. I know that Arrow wanted to manage to get that line about "If I'd only killed Damien Darhk before then...." into the script, but there were other ways to get there, especially since this was the same script that had Laurel herself acknowledge that the vigilante thing meant that she could die at any time, not necessarily at Damien's hands. So is Oliver planning on killing everyone who might possibly kill a member of Team Arrow? That would have been something worth exploring. Or Thea could have brought up Moira, pointing out that Moira's involvement in a conspiracy to kill people not only ended up getting several hundred people killed, but also was the starting point for sending Oliver and Sara through years of hell. 

That this moment happened in an episode that was otherwise filled with references to the first season just made it worse. 

5. Look, I love Malcolm Merlyn as much as anybody, and maybe more than most people, and at the moment I'm inclined to think he's a better person than Barry Allen, but can we maybe not do too much of the "Malcolm Merlyn was right" thing, show? 

6. So, the Star City Star is not only terrible at coming up with a decent name for itself, but also seems to think that Oliver skipping out on meetings is more important than, say, A NUMBER OF COPS GETTING KILLED, although then again, given that this is Star City, maybe cop killings are kinda on the same newsworthy level as someone losing a cell phone. No wonder so many of these cops are trying to cash in before getting murdered.  Especially since they aren't even safe right outside the police station!

And now, Laurel!

In the episode for under 45 seconds and yet somehow manages one of her all time worst failures on this show yet. I genuinely did not think this was possible. But -

Number of ways Laurel manages to fail as a vigilante and a human being, two: 1) Right after admitting that being the Black Canary was a dangerous job that could lead to her death, urging Oliver to replace her so that Oliver will always have a part of Laurel next to him. Grateful thanks for the woman whose life you're casually telling Oliver to risk so that a part of you can always stay with him. 2) Assuming that her ex-boyfriend is such a shallow person and/or has such a terribly poor memory that the only possible way he can remember you, a woman he dated for years, cheated on with your sister, rescued multiple times, and brought into his vigilante team, would be if someone wearing black leather is fighting next to him. 3) Failing to get therapy to deal with this unbelievable level of self-hatred/doubt.

On a related note, Arrow writers, I may not be one of Laurel's biggest fans (she says, again engaging in understatement), but even I think Laurel deserves better than this. Sara, if you decide to rescue Laurel with the Waverider, please, I'm begging you, do your sister a kindness and take her to a therapist and a better life. 

Bonus related note: Oliver's insistence that the newbies couldn't just put on a mask and expect to be the equivalent of Laurel also made me laugh. Diggle and Thea, sure, but remind us again, Oliver, just how much training did Laurel have? Because based solely on what we've seen so far, Wild Dog and Evelyn have pretty much the same amount of training Laurel did. 

Hmm. Come to think of it, Oliver, maybe you're going to need to do some preemptive killing to save them.  

[BunsenBurner]

Haven't read anything here yet. When Tobias Church showed up at the christening of the BC statue I was sure he was going to destroy it. I got excited and was so disappointed that he didn't. It kind of destroyed the rest of the show for me.

[Chaser]

PB is live tweeting the episode. He as been so quiet I didn't expect that. Of course they all have beside, ironically I guess, SA. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Chaser
Removed the part about EBR's silence because I guess I summoned her.

[Pete Martell]

1 hour ago, EmeraldArcher said:

She did.  She really is just the worst.

I wish you hadn't reminded me about Sara, who got a pine box and a secret burial. Sara, who earned the name Canary through the worst sort of tribulation. Sara, who nurtured a canary when she was but a child and protected women when she was more than a killer. Sara, who was willing to sacrifice herself for her family.

Laurel was nothing, and now they pretend she was everything.

She's everything in terms of moving the plot along (she says "Don't let me be the last Canary" to help make sure the show keeps pimping the Canary idea or name or costume out; we see flashbacks for Oliver's manpain), but in terms of how the show actually treated her, she was more of a nothingburger in the end. It's kind of pathetic all round because I don't believe the show ever actually cared that much about her when things didn't work out the way they expected early on, yet they keep flogging her, not caring that it annoys a lot of people and just reinforces how crappy the actual material for her was. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Pete Martell

[Chaser]

@quarks - I'm truly sorry you are still doing a Laurel section after her death, but I much appreciate it. 

[Writing Wrongs]

I can't remember, does Quentin not know that Sara is alive?

How many archers does this show have? It's like all the speedsters on The Flash.

[BkWurm1]

First thought before reading any comments.

Flashbacks are good so far.  Love Anatoly still.

Laurel's last request makes no sense.  Make sure she's not the last Canary so a part of her is always with Oliver?  She's stalking him from the grave.  What the hell?  I didn't think they could do it but they managed to make Laurel look even more pathetic.  

Despite Lance's crack about opposite's not attracting that much, I took it that Donna dumped him.  The "lost my girl" on his list made it pretty clear to me. 

I found a lot of the rest of the episode fine.  Waaaaaay too little Diggle.  I'm wondering if I missed something about Diggle cause not sure if his line about suffering deja vu was just a flashpoint reference or there was something going on I didn't catch.  I assume if so, I'll read about it as I catch up on the comments, lol. 

About Felicity's dude.  Did he not seem like the most forced and pointless contrivance ever?  Utterly random and added nothing to the episode.  TPTB could have just as easily left Oliver and Felicity's relationship status with Oliver's "I don't know" because nothing in their work relationship was anything but professional.  The very pale, long fingered, creeping hands of Mayo boy just felt HUGELY like overkill.  Yes we already understood they are not together.   

Finally, there was far too much Laurel propping and sanctifying for my taste, but I'm willing to let that go as something done just to bridge the new season. 

I didn't love Oliver's new back to rando killing.  It made sense when it was a last resort but this is too casual.  Good for Thea for not going back.  Oliver is an idiot for not seeing that he had a chance to get Thea to come back and he blew it. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm wondering if I missed something about Diggle cause not sure if his line about suffering deja vu was just a flashpoint reference or there was something going on I didn't catch.

I though that it just had to do with being back in the military. 

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

So pale, long fingered, creeping hands just felt HUGELY like overkill. 

TINY like overkill!

[Angel12d]

6 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I can't remember, does Quentin not know that Sara is alive?

Quentin does know. He was there when they saved her soul in 405.

[catrox14]

50 minutes ago, Coop33 said:

Laurel has gotten more posthumous attention than Moira or Tommy have combined, which is straight up ridiculous. Her wish to not be the last Canary was odd to say the least, though I enjoyed Steve's inability to look like he cared about it at all.

Seriously. It pisses me off. And yes to SA's not caring face.

Also, shouldn't a statue of the Black Canary...be...black?

[johntfs]

The show is still the thing where it beats the "theme of the week" right into the ground.  "Can Oliver be the Mayor and Arrow alone?"  NO!  NO HE CAN'T!  WE GET IT, SHOW!  WE GET THAT HE NEEDS A TEAM!  That said, at least this show doesn't make me want to kill the title character with a nail-studded baseball bat for being stupid selfish *cough*Barry Allen*cough.*  Wild Dog looks a bit silly, but I wouldn't mind seeing Cradle Canary AKA Evelyn Sharp again.  I did like Church's "BD2BON" license plate.   If they're bringing in new vigilantes, I'd like to see them put in a cowboy-gunslinger type just to mock all the bow and arrow types.

Also, I want some metahuman to animate that Laurel statue and send it on a rampage of destruction and whiny self-pity.

Felicity having a boyfriend?  Not a surprise.  Felicity is brilliant, caring and an adorably super-hot librarian type.  No way would she just pine for Oliver and no way would somebody not make a move to be with her.

[popgoesculture]

Overall... I found the episode disappointing but unsurprising? 

Thea is officially the worst. I get not wanting to be a vigilante, but waffling when your brother has been kidnapped -- the same brother who basically died for you and your bad decisions... that's not an option. 

Oliver and his denial is depressing, but maybe it'll move in a more interesting direction in the upcoming eps. I'm disappointed by the show's decision to not let us know what Felicity was up to at all. Does she now live in the bunker? Does she have a job? How does Curtis balance helping out and Palmer Tech? Literally just a couple of sentences of throwaway would've been better than the nothing we got... minus random boyfriend who looks like ALL the other cops.

1 hour ago, quarks said:

1. One reason to try to cast widely and with a more diverse cast, Arrow, is so that I can actually distinguish between the cops instead of "bland white cop," "bland white cop," and "bland white cop," so that I can tell which bland white cop died at the end there. Or which bland cop was in Felicity's apartment at the end there. It's one thing to do this with the cannon fodder. It's another thing to do this with characters I'm at least vaguely supposed to have an interest in. "Uh, he has a slightly more narrow face" is not going to cut it. 

I had to rewind bc I didn't realize Felicity's BF was a cop from earlier in the ep. And then I was trying to figure out WHICH cop it was. Sigh.

2 hours ago, EmeraldArcher said:

*When Oliver said "Hey, Buddy" to John, my heart melted a little--partially from their closeness, but also in remembrance of Tommy.  

That is a much sweeter reading of it than what my sister and I had -- we both thought for a second that he was talking to his kid, since his voice got all soft... and we had to pause and laugh when we realized otherwise. 

Actually, I'm now realizing I laughed much more than I'm sure the show intended... I laughed at the direction (and the continual look up everyone's nostrils shot); Oliver's seemingly ginormous bowtie... when Church appeared and the way he stroked his chin... I also laughed every time they showed the "Laurel" statue (couldn't decide if it was worse in the daylight or in the evening). 

Maybe season 5 is going to turn the show into a comedy. 

[Trini]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

3. So, unless I was missing something, the only members of Team Arrow with current non-vigilante employment were Oliver and Thea, both earning presumably relatively low municipal salaries, right, given that Star City's tax base must have collapsed by now. So....how exactly is Team Arrow paying the bills? Is Cisco still rich in the revised revised Flashpoint timeline?

Yeah, I wanted to ask: Does Felicity have a day job?

[thegirlsleuth]

That episode certainly had a lot of whacking.  

The fight scenes were really good--fun to watch and I got a little zing of adrenaline.  I'm wondering if they can sustain it once they start adding more people--they fell apart last year because Oliver, Diggle, Thea, and Laurel would all arrive on scene, strike a pose, and then one at a time, fight the bad guys. Stephen Amell's fake fighting skills are top notch--David Ramsey, too--and I'm interested in seeing if they can maintain the level going forward with all the newbies. It struck me in the terrible chair punching scene--which remained weak and unimpressive--was terrible because the other actor couldn't pull it off.

I did like the more aggressive Arrow, but with all the killing I kept thinking about all the dead were minions, which was a problem I had with the killing in season one. I get that Oliver thought he needed to stop second guessing himself, but how high was the bodycount going?  Also, what if all the vigilante's modeling themselves on the Green Arrow decided to do the same thing?  Of course, they are probably really inspired by Laurel.

Oh, Laurel.  The Laurel they discussed bore no relation to what we'd saw on screen.  I'm going to get cranky if every episode includes that much beatification of Laurel Lance.

 Chad Coleman put a lot of verve into the role, and it was nice to see Anarky and Anatoly.  If killing Laurel gave us a budget for all these solid actors, I consider it a gift.  I know people talked about Echo and Willa, but for my money the MVP was Paul Blackthorne. No scenery chewing but real emotion and power. I like him in the paternal role a lot more than Malcolm.

I was glad I was spoiled for tiny hands.  I thought that Oliver and Felicity were flirty without actually flirting, and Oliver didn't look too martyred when he was talking to Diggle, so it didn't tip into "Felicity is being MEAN to Oliver."  That said, I didn't think it was necessary, and in fact we learned more about Felicity's mental state when she tossed her shoes and dropped on the couch than when she got a back rub is telling. I think for the first time Emily Bett generated anti-chemistry with someone.  She looked like she was tolerating him, so I'm confused as to why the writers would think we'd be rooting for him.

"Kill this prig,"  as an insult doesn't really say gritty and urban to me, and yet that's what the dirty cops said to Tobias Church.  I actually went on urban dictionary to check if there was some sort of new meaning the kids are saying these days, but no--they really were using the Victorian term. Also, I found it funny that Mr. Poppy was using a flip phone.

Edited October 6, 2016 by thegirlsleuth

[catrox14]

As it was when Laurel was alive, so it is when Laurel is dead:  SHUT UP, LAUREL
 

If Oliver was dead, she be trying stalk him in the afterlife too.  I'm half expecting ghost!Laurel to show up in the mid season finale.

[catrox14]

ETA: Not a fan of the stop motion shit in the middle of a stunt.  It's overly cinematic in not a good way.  Just show Oliver jumping off a railing or whatever please.

[Delphi]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

Really Thea? Maybe the police can handle it? She is lucky her death lead to Olicity sex or I would really complain about him saving her ass.

My thought as well, I haven't got to the second page of the thread so my bad if it was already brought up.   But yes Thea, your aversion to a mask is worth Oliver's life.   I used to love you. 

I wouldn't have minded laurels comment if she had just said that there needs to be both an Arrow aND a Canary, but she didn't. 

Yasss My beloved Lonnie, so happy to have you back. 

I loved bratva and the stunts, both were fine. 

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Very whelmed. 

I don't feel much of anything about it, although I am surprised that Felicity does seem to be living with cop boyfriend. 

And surprised that they made Laurel even more pathetic than she already was after her last deathbed speech. Yikes.

I'm not ready to just to any conclusions about living with the guy (could just as easily planned on having a late dinner together and gave him a key to let himself in) but if it turns out that she is (ack, please no, it makes no sense) I will point to the many times we heard about her working late at the bunker.  So she's not rushing home at least. 

2 hours ago, Soulfire said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I said in my initial post that they were totally professional...well, not totally, lol.  It's like someone said up thread, they were flirty without technically flirting but Oliver's little smile in the last panels was not lost on me.  Still, I didn't get any kind of hopeful vibe from him when he was talking to Diggle.  More like he wished he had some kind of sign that things might change but so far, no.  Having creepy hands show up really didn't answer any questions.  Well, maybe in the short term but clearly not in the long term. 

I do love that they just can't help themselves with the chemistry.  Even when not in the same room they sparkled in the "not a team" exchange. 

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

You know, Felicity looked pretty damn amazing and pretty happy for someone supposedly burdened with the guilt of Havenrock. *eye roll* 

At first I was thinking with Barry having reset Flashpoint and

Spoiler

Felicity going over there next week to I guess find out what he's changed by messing with the timeline,

 

I thought maybe Havenrock wasn't an issue again until Barry reset Flashpoint but the more I think about it, the more I'd think that the Arrow we saw was after Barry "fixed" things since they always have the timing of the Flash and Arrow pretty much in order at least in the beginning of the season.  So i guess Felicity is still working hard not to think about Havenrock?  Maybe something will force her to think about it soon. 

 

30 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Quentin does know. He was there when they saved her soul in 405.

He also has seen Sara since she's been time traveling.  He told her about Laurel's death in a LoT episode. 

9 minutes ago, Trini said:

Yeah, I wanted to ask: Does Felicity have a day job?

Keeping Oliver alive?

[Delphi]

If he was still suser duper wealthy she'd be paid, it's honestly where she spends the most time, keeping him alive. 

[BkWurm1]

Quarks, that was a masterful list.

Quote

8. Speaking of which, I laughed a lot more during this episode than in last night's episode of the supposedly lighter Flash - often intentionally.  Again, counting that as a plus.

Yeah, Oliver was back to killing and yet Barry still IMO came off the bigger villian. 

Quote

9. Loved the continued Arrow tradition of Oliver shooting wannabe vigilantes in the leg before recruiting him to his team. 

I actually went "awww" when he shot Mad Dog.  It's Oliver's twisted way of being protective.

Quote

11. I shudder to type this in a forum filled with Olicity shippers after an episode that ended showing us Felicity with a new boyfriend - but this is the sort of Oliver/Felicity banter I actually like: about fighting crime, not dramatic confrontations about lies and secret kids. More of this stuff, please. 

No need to shudder.  My love for Olicity was built on this kind of banter.  It's what TPTB didn't quite get, that one of the things that made Olicity soooooo appealing is that there didn't need to be any drama to keep the sparks flying.  Just let them be their normal selves and I get to be happy. 

But just to TPTB, if you are listening, shacking up with rando cop is NOT letting Felicity be normal self.  Even dating him given the current set of circumstances is REALLY iffy.  Just so not needed.  I'm trying to wait and see if there is anything more to spider fingers, but so far he feels like a huge waste of a everyone's time. 

Quote

9. Uh, Thea, I get that you're really liking the cushy mayoral job, but maybe, just maybe, when the evil guy is taking hostages, including your brother, you set aside your ethics for a moment and try to help rescue them? Especially since if you'd arrived a bit sooner, you and Oliver might have been able to just injure the bad guys, instead of killing them?

Yeah, that was just really poorly written.  They shouldn't have had her reluctance be about giving up her normal life, not when her brother's life was on the line.  That made her look weak and selfish, especially in light of Oliver's over the top willingness to save her life.  They should have handled that differently.  Maybe make her immediately want to help and then somehow show her loss of confidence or something.  As it was it seemed it all came down to, she didn't want to.  It was just so poorly handled.  I think less of Thea for that moment even though I don't think less of her for not wanting to have this be her life.  Sure, don't suit up for the city, but this was your brother's life and seemingly NO ONE else to save him.  Very disappointed. 

The one I was pleased with was Lance and how he took Oliver's advice and started doing some real good.  It was soooo obvious that the Deputy Mayor position they are still looking to fill will go to Lance.  I'm not saying that as a spoiler, just my guess after a rather heavy handed mention of the position's availability. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by BkWurm1

[calliope1975]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

No need to shudder.  My love for Olicity was built on this kind of banter.  It's what TPTB didn't quite get, that one of the things that made Olicity soooooo appealing is that there didn't need to be any drama to keep the sparks flying.  Just let them be their normal selves and I get to be happy. 

I agree wholeheartedly. What I've always wanted is for the writers to just let these characters be and allow the actors' natural chemistry to shine. No need for manufactured drama when you are vigilantes. 

[Velocity23]

This was the question GATV asked after the episode aired. Still not getting results he wants. Never change GATV

[quarks]

16 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, Oliver was back to killing and yet Barry still IMO came off the bigger villian. 

Part of this was because Oliver wasn't arguing that the killing was heroic, good or beneficial, just necessary. And Arrow took the time both to let him voice this to Thea and show us in the flashbacks why it's so easy for him to turn to violence. Plus, although I didn't like the way Thea framed the counterargument, at least it was there, letting viewers recognize that no, Arrow does not think that running around killing mooks is a good thing, even if the mooks might tell other people about the mayor's fondness for using chairs are weapons.  

And, also unlike Barry, Oliver ASKED people to help him, instead of KIDNAPPING people to help him. I mean, ok, yes, Oliver was also still shooting arrows into his potential recruits, but still.

[Delphi]

Well, I'm always hopeful that Helena will pull a Faith and break out.  ;)

 

I also liked the callbacks to season one.   A Lil on the nose, but that works for me. 

[Mellowyellow]

13 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

This was the question GATV asked after the episode aired. Still not getting results he wants. Never change GATV

Oooh I dont have twitter! What are the results?

[Velocity23]

65% yes

13% no

16% bring back Laurel

5% is Helena still in hail

[doesntworkonwood]

All through Oliver's speech, the only thing I could think of was 'JUST PLANT HER A FUCKING TREE OLIVER'. Would have saved money and been a whole lot less creepy. 

I'm going to ignore the rest of the episode, partly because the directing gave me a headache and partly because I didn't really care about anything that was going on. And partly because I really couldn't tell any of the cops apart, so I'm going into the next episode pretending Detective Mayo is dead.

[bijoux]

The episode was okay all in all. If there is one thing that did annoy me, it's Oliver snapping the crooked cop's neck. The chair stunt was wicked cool, but it felt like it was done because of the cool factor and call back to the pilot, not because it makes sense for the character. Shocking for this show, I know. I was more okay with Oliver popping the other guys, this first one felt overboard. Points for getting himself separated from other hostages. Negative points for the lame 'he's tied up' remark. Stop outing your secret identity, dude.

It feels weird to say after all this time, but yay for flashbacks. Anatoly did not disappoint. But what's with the '5 years ago' title card? I don't remember that ever being used on the show.

Shit, Felicity is losing it, isn't she? I'm not talking about the (weirldy squeaky sounding) boyfriend, but about the part where she walks in and leaves the door wide open. What the hell? Also, what's wrong with this cop that he doesn't lock the front door? Also also, what's Felicity's reason for showing up pretty late apparently? If she were CEO, that's a built-in excuse, now, I don't get it.

I really liked Wild Dog's introduction and the fact that he's been a thorn in Oliver's side for a while. I can get behind this sort of interaction. I was also a fan of pissy Oliver with Thea at the beginning of the episode.

6 hours ago, Chaser said:

Thea was named MVP by two people and Curtis was the second for one. I don't get it at all.

Me either. I was not that impressed by Thea at all. Twiddling her thumbs while Oliver and three other people needed rescuing is not endearing. I approve that despite the reviews extorting on her "running" the mayor's office, it's actually mostly publicity that she seems competent in. This makes sense for her character, not running things in general after learning how uneducated she actually is in politics last season.

Curtis wasn't that noticeable, but I liked his presence in the episode, he fit in nicely.

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

The one I was pleased with was Lance and how he took Oliver's advice and started doing some real good.  It was soooo obvious that the Deputy Mayor position they are still looking to fill will go to Lance.  I'm not saying that as a spoiler, just my guess after a rather heavy handed mention of the position's availability. 

I really dug their scenes and completely agree that Lance is a shoe in for the spot. It could work really well. He's got the experience with this line of work that Oliver lacks.

Finally, way little Diggle, but I think it actually works here because the text made his absence felt. There was Oliver trying to reach him earlier and him and Felicity sharing a moment over Dig, so not showing him earlier felt like it had a point.

[looptab]

5 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Yeah. I'm not sure if it's because it was spoiled or out of left field or people assuming it's Flashpoint or whatever, but that's one "twist" that doesn't seem to be getting a whole lot of traction. It hasn't even been spared much more than a sentence in any of the reviews I've read.

I'm LOLing at the writers hoping to generate a lot of buzz with that move, and Stephen just spoiling it months ahead. Heheh.

Anyway, maybe my expectations were really low, because I liked it well enough. Though, Not a fan of WWLD for all the reasons you guys said, not a fan of the way Oliver went back to killing, or the direction - nice one upthread about looking up the actors nostrils! I thought the same :). 

I didn't find anything special about Thea this episode. I like her most of the time, and this was just as usual, except for the part about not saving her brother.  Agree with @quarks that the no killing argument could have had better and more founded reasoning than Laurel's wishes.

Laura's words were both hilarious and sad. SHE DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS ABOUT TO DIE, FFS. Why would she wish for him to have a part of her always with him? So. Stupid. And kinda creepy.

This was not supposed to be a 'shipper show', right? Well, there were nice moments. They kept their word about going back to basics with the two of them; this was the kind of interactions that makes them a joy to watch. Mayo is just a nuisance.

Was I the only one noticing Stephen Amell cracking up in a couple scenes? :)