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All Episodes Talk: Crime And Punishment

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I was actually holding back a laugh at the bit about the idea of the hitmen taking Nancy's driver's license out to make sure she was the person they were supposed to target. It just fit so perfectly with the real comedy of errors that was this crazy East Texas type gang. Seriously, all the discussion about how this group spent the money Frank threw at them...at times the whole thing almost felt like it could be made into a dark comedy film that spoofs and mocks hitmen and "dumb criminal" types. I lost count of how many times I muttered or thought some form of, "Are you kidding me with this?" throughout. 

Thank goodness these guys were too stupid/unfocused to fully carry out Frank's plan. Good lord...having photos of his mistress in plain sight, buying her freaking properties, blowing huge stacks of money on her... The fact that he was so brazen with all of that and stole/blew huge amounts of money in general like it was nothing just proves how truly arrogant and selfish he was. I shudder to think of what he could've done to his mistress had he gotten away with this and gone on to be with her next.

(On the note of the mistress-if you find yourself having to pull a "It's her or me" ultimatum on the guy you're seeing, that should kind of clue you in that he's not worth your time and energy. Just sayin'.)

38 minutes ago, MerBearHou said:

I could not stand the older daughter who insisted on doing 90% of the talking and yes, those daughters are beyond delusional.

Ugh, it was so tough watching them, because on the one hand I always want to be sympathetic towards children who defend their parents on these kinds of shows. It would be hard to face the idea that your parent was capable of committing such heinous crimes, after all. If that were my parent, I'd probably go through a period of denial, too. 

But on the other hand...yeah, even if they don't want to believe he's capable of hiring a hit man, he's an embezzler and he's betrayed your mom, so he's a scumbag on that level alone. And to not sit by their mom in the courtroom...that just seemed so cold. Even if they disagreed with her on his guilt, you'd think they'd still want to let her know they had her back in general.

Given the type of person Frank was, though, and since, if I recall rightly, one of the daughters mentioned having visited him in prison at some point or something to that effect, I'm wondering if he didn't try at some point during the whole case to manipulate them into believing he was innocent. They kept making such a big thing out of how he would "collapse" at the news of what happened to Nancy, and having all these other super dramatic reactions to make it seem like he was oh so worried about his wife...if he's capable of that kind of behavior, I can totally see him trying to use similar sympathy ploys on his daughters. 

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I wondered where the Howard son was -- clearly he declined to participate in the show (smart guy).

My mom was watching with me, and she initially thought that maybe he was involved in the crime somehow, since we weren't seeing an interview with him. 

But yeah, I definitely wouldn't blame him for wanting to just stay out of this whole crazy mess. Wherever he is, I hope he's okay, too. 

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Nancy Howard was a warm, gracious, kind woman and what a heartbreaking experience.  So thankful she survived and has rebuilt a pretty good life, as well as she can.

Agreed. She had a much better attitude about all of this than I think many others would have had they been in her shoes. I really felt for her. And I hope she and her daughters can properly reconcile with time.

Edited by Annber03
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So this poor woman has lost her eye, her marriage, her vision of the man who was her husband and her children’s father, her children, her financial stability.    All because her husband decided to have her killed rather than divorce her.  

I know children always look at their parents thru rose colored glasses, but Charlie said it best. ‘ Your Dad did it. There’s no getting around it’. 

Visiting your Dad in jail doesn’t make him innocent.  He is still the same person, you’ve just learned a lot more about him.  

I believe the Hee Haw gang.   

I hope the children eventually come to terms with this.  It’s going to come as a  real shock when they figure out who he really is. 

I found a news website that said she  only found a job a few months ago.  

Edited by mythoughtis
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I realize that she wasn't in a logical frame of mind but I thought it was odd that she seemed proud that she was able to turn off the alarm but it woould have notified the security company that something was wrong in case she collapsed before she called 911. 

The daughters were shitty like their father.

The show doesn't feature a lot of rocket scientists but these dudes were crazy stupid. Including Frank who wasted a shit ton of money and TWO years on these yahoos.

I liked both prosecutors which is rare on this show. 

Edited by biakbiak
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28 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

realize that she wasn't in a logical frame of mind but I thought it was odd that she seemed proud that she was able to turn off the alarm but it woould have notified the security company that something was wrong in case she collapsed before she called 911. 

I had the exact same thought.  Let the alarm go off!!  It must have just been some kind of habitual reflex.  She was obviously used to being at home alone ALOT because of her husband's duplicitous 2nd life elsewhere.  Nancy had superhuman strength to get into the house, remember the code and turn off that alarm, get into the bathroom, call 911.

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7 hours ago, biakbiak said:

OMG when glasses daughter, said they had been through a big life event and needed to process it as a reason she was estranged from her mother I wanted to punch her in the face. 1. It was more than 2 years and 2. That big life event was your dad trying to have your mom murdered you smug delusional bitch.

She'll "process it" after she spends all the money Daddy gave her before the "hit" . . . and/or any money he put aside to hide for his personal use if he ever got out of jail.  Nobody can be that delusional, can they?  There has to be money involved.

ETA:  Here's a link to a blog article written about Nancy on the website for the law firm where she is now employed.  

Edited by AZChristian
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My blood pressure shoots up from these stories - another guy who sleeps next to his wife while plotting her demise.  How could someone be so callous, smiling in her face while counting the days until his hitman does the job?  That right there is a concept that I can't wrap my head around.  If you're no longer happy, be a man and tell your wife and walk away.  But these greedy, amoral creeps want to keep their money, and find murder a better solution than splitting their assets and making a clean break.  The good thing is that this is now such a common occurrence that cops know to look at the husband first, and most of these men get caught through their own arrogance - they're not as clever as they think they are.   

Glad this asshole is rotting in jail.  I would so love to kick those daughters - abandoning their mother after her horrific experience.  That's a new low.

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My mom was watching with me, and she initially thought that maybe he was involved in the crime somehow, since we weren't seeing an interview with him.

The thing about Dateline is that once you've seen a few shows you recognize the pattern immediately. When they start out by telling you there are two daughters and one son, and the show is interviewing both daughters, the mother and the father, you instantly jump to the conclusion that the son will turn out to be the perpetrator, based on his absence from the narrative. So yes, that was the logical conclusion, based on a history of watching Dateline. This episode left me wondering if maybe the son sided with the mother, or just where he stood on the issue.

I've seen this one before and it's heartbreaking. I just can't wrap my head around the two daughters being that deep in denial. If my father tried to have my mother killed there's no way I'd stand by his side and defend him. These two women take the expression "daddy's girls" to a new extreme.

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The first part of the interview with the scum husband seemed so strange when he talked about being at a casino and trying desperately to get home to his injured wife. None of this is true and we the audience found out he was lying. Does Dateline ask him to repeat this lie to throw us off? Or did they really interview him right when this happened?

I felt so bad for Nancy with her daughters not even sitting with her in the court house. Then the one who did all the talking seemed giddy about her mom almost dying. That poor woman will never be the same-losing half your vision is no small thing. Somehow I can't imagine a woman who knows nothing is wrong when their husband is walking around with a phone full of cheating pictures. Not blaming her, just saying I can't understand.

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Somehow I can't imagine a woman who knows nothing is wrong when their husband is walking around with a phone full of cheating pictures. Not blaming her, just saying I can't understand.

I think in her heart she just never expected that to happen.  She may have had an inkling but talked herself out of it.  Nobody wants to find out that Ward Cleaver is banging Mrs. Mondello.

I wanted to smack the one daughter.  What a drama queen.

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We only saw the son in video of him in the hallway outside the courtroom/ and possibly taking the stand as a character witness for his father.  Sounds like he didn’t want to be interviewed for tv cameras.  Can you blame him? 

Since the daughters were interviewed, and then later did not return Dateline calls, a lot of this must have been filmed during the original trial.   

 I thought the daughters’ theory of blackmail was just full of holes. The only explanation of how their Dad and Billy came to know each other was supplied by Billy as a blind phone call from ‘John’.  Just how would these criminals have met their Dad, otherwise? How would they possibly know about the affair/ embezzlement to blackmail him about?   How would they have known Moms name and address? Remember, Billy’s stepson told the cops  about the murder plot before the murder. 

 If you believe that he has the affair, embezzled millions of dollars which he spent on a mistress, two love nests, and so forth... then why is the rest such a stretch? I was laughing about the daughters comment that humans have affairs, humans don’t commit murders. Are all the convicted murders space aliens? 

I haven’t looked at the phones/texts on my spouses phone- I feel secure I don’t need to. So I’d be blindsided by an affair too.   They didn’t mention Facebook accounts, right? 

Edited by mythoughtis
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3 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Somehow I can't imagine a woman who knows nothing is wrong when their husband is walking around with a phone full of cheating pictures.

I think he was really good at compartmentilizing and having his mistress be in another state probably helped.

How stupid is he for not at least deleting the photos and texts before he turned it over, they probably would have discovered the affair but he should at least told them when he gave them the phone. 

I hope the daughters are getting dragged.

Edited by biakbiak
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15 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

I thought the daughters’ theory of blackmail was just full of holes. The only explanation of how their Dad and Billy came to know each other was supplied by Billy as a blind phone call from ‘John’.  Just how would these criminals have met their Dad, otherwise? How would they possibly know about the affair/ embezzlement to blackmail him about?   How would they have known Moms name and address? Remember, Billy’s stepson told the cops  about the murder plot before the murder. 

Yeah, I thought that was a ludicrous angle to go with, too, for the very reasons you noted. Those people wouldn't have any real motive to blackmail him. And why would somebody be all, "You do what we say or we'll spill the beans about your affair" only to then turn around and try and kill the guy's wife, thus allowing him the possible opportunity to continue to be with said mistress? That would be utterly pointless. 

Plus, these guys weren't exactly the brightest bunch of criminals. They didn't seem at all capable of concocting an elaborate scheme or a blackmail setup. When the cops pulled the guy over prior to the attack, he couldn't even keep his stories straight regarding why he was in the neighborhood. 

I also like how Frank's defense attorneys were trying to discredit the gang by arguing, "Well, they're all a bunch of criminals, so why would a jury believe them?" But a jury will totally believe a guy who committed the crime of embezzlement, apparently. 

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3 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Then the one who did all the talking seemed giddy about her mom almost dying

She had the weirdest affect. The way she discussed saying “whaaaaat” upon hearing her mom was shot, like she had been in a dorm room hearing gossip with her friends was off-putting to me.

Then her reaction to her dad’s infidelity. Almost hand-waving it “Dad, don’t cheat on mom” with this smiley face, like if she was asking a baby or a pet to stop doing something naughty. That irked me. Perhaps it’s too personal for me because I grew up with a father that cheated on my mother repeatedly and I have never forgiven him for making my sweet mother cry. 

Listen, I get it, it’s a defense mechanism; kinda goes right along with the impenetrable wall of denial she’s built. It just made me want to slap her all the more still. 

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20 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

Billy’s stepson told the cops  about the murder plot before the murder. 

I thought the cops had a lot to answer for on that point.  We're always hearing that they have to follow up on every lead and every phone call from every paranoid old lady who hears something in the bushes, but a man tells them he's working on a deal to murder a woman, and they fail to take him down to the station and grill him. So what if he was on drugs at the time? I don't think that's any excuse to ignore what he said. Frank could have been set up for a sting at that point and Nancy spared all the horror she went through.

I think the oldest daughter is a chip off of Frank's block.  She firmly good diction equals being a good person plus she thinks she's smarter than everyone else.  I would like to tell her that, no dear, we're not thinking," Those poor girls just want to believe their father."  Some of us are thinking, "Those arrogant, smug idiots have turned their backs on their own mother in order to keep up some self-serving delusion about their father."  They were never The Cleavers.  Ward hadn't been married and divorced and Ward wasn't all about money at the expense of family time.  I like to think Wally and the Beave would have kicked Ward out if he hurt June.

How about the Other Woman?   Nothing like projecting the excitement of a high stakes casino table onto the big nosed frowzy blonde gambling next to you and deciding you're soulmates.

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2 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

We're always hearing that they have to follow up on every lead and every phone call from every paranoid old lady who hears something in the bushes, but a man tells them he's working on a deal to murder a woman, and they fail to take him down to the station and grill him. So what if he was on drugs at the time? I don't think that's any excuse to ignore what he said. Frank could have been set up for a sting at that point and Nancy spared all the horror she went through.

I thought they said they looked into it but couldn’t find any real info. The stepson/ addict only knew ‘John’, no last name, didn’t really have an address or a victims name? Just some ‘church  lady’.  The cops must have thought he was  doing that meth addict paranoid/delusional thing.  I hope that’s what it was- I hope they didn’t actually have a victims’ full name and didn’t bother to look it up.  

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7 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

I thought they said they looked into it but couldn’t find any real info. The stepson/ addict only knew ‘John’, no last name, didn’t really have an address or a victims name? Just some ‘church  lady’.  The cops must have thought he was  doing that meth addict paranoid/delusional thing.  I hope that’s what it was- I hope they didn’t actually have a victims’ full name and didn’t bother to look it up.  

I agree and who knows what other bat shit crazy things he said. Given that they were abke to connect the dots pretty quickly, they must have looked into the story at the time.

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Yes. I guess I keep over estimating the yahoo gang.  These are guys who can let 8000 dollars fly off the top of their car.  But then, in the end, they were smarter than Mr. John who kept handing them huge amounts of money before they did the job.

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Glasses daughter looked like she was incognito with something you buy from the back of old comic books.

The other daughter was annoying as hell.  Shut up already.  We get it.  You're a devoted daughter.  But shut the hell up.

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31 minutes ago, PsychoKlown said:

Glasses daughter looked like she was incognito with something you buy from the back of old comic books.

The other daughter was annoying as hell.  Shut up already.  We get it.  You're a devoted daughter.  But shut the hell up.

I also couldnt tell if glasses girl loved blush or had rosecea.

Edited by biakbiak
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7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

If my father tried to have my mother killed there's no way I'd stand by his side and defend him. 

The fact that he had been having an affair would have been enough for me to side with my mom throughout it all.

I'm with everybody, the older daughter was annoying.

When the father started tearing up about his daughter spending 10 days in the NICU, I knew he was overcompensating. It's been 30 years. She's fine. Quit the dramatics. My son spent 3 months in the NICU. He's fine now and I'm not still crying about it 15 years later. 

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Nancy responded today on Dateline's facebook page under one of their posts about last nights episode, what an incredible woman!  Per her facebook response:

"Good morning to all the Dateline fans, I'm a fan too, but have never commented on their page. This is Nancy Shore, formerly Nancy Howard, yes this is my story. I want to say thank you for the hard work Dateline did on my story. But, I also want to say that my life is so much richer than they left it with this updated re-run. It's been 5 years since the shooting and the same God and Savior Jesus Christ, for who we are celebrating Christmas this weekend, has continued his powerful work in my life and the life of my family. I'm sorry that Dateline ended the story in a negative way depicting my daughters negatively because they didn't respond to their call. If you can put yourself in the position of not just me, but of each member of our family...you can imagine that their world had been completely shattered just as mine was by all that happened. This was a "death" to each of us. We've all had to heal in our own ways and timing. I am thankful to say that the brokenhearted woman Dateline ended with is NOT who I am anymore. God has brought not just healing to me and my family but has brought LIFE. I am LIVING and growing daily...with ALL of my children actively in my life...we are a rebuilt family, each moving forward with our lives! I have enjoyed Thanksgiving and Christmas with my children and grateful to PRAISE God for his faithfulness. Wishing you all a Merry, Merry Christmas and a 2018 year filled with great HOPE! "May the God of hope fill you with all and peace as you trust in Him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Rm. 15:13?? "

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Thank you for posting the comment from Nancy. Besides its being a nice follow up, it confirms that the show was a rerun. It was such an old story I wondered how they were interviewing everyone so much after. It only made sense to me if it was an old episode. But Dateline was calling it a new episode. 

Interesting that the sentence was life in prison for attempted murder.  I guess that's because it would have been a death penalty case in Texas if she had died.

I have nothing else to add to the other excellent posts up thread. What a family. 

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2 hours ago, dixiemama said:

Nancy responded today on Dateline's facebook page under one of their posts about last nights episode, what an incredible woman!  Per her facebook response:

"Good morning to all the Dateline fans, I'm a fan too, but have never commented on their page. This is Nancy Shore, formerly Nancy Howard, yes this is my story. I want to say thank you for the hard work Dateline did on my story. But, I also want to say that my life is so much richer than they left it with this updated re-run. It's been 5 years since the shooting and the same God and Savior Jesus Christ, for who we are celebrating Christmas this weekend, has continued his powerful work in my life and the life of my family. I'm sorry that Dateline ended the story in a negative way depicting my daughters negatively because they didn't respond to their call. If you can put yourself in the position of not just me, but of each member of our family...you can imagine that their world had been completely shattered just as mine was by all that happened. This was a "death" to each of us. We've all had to heal in our own ways and timing. I am thankful to say that the brokenhearted woman Dateline ended with is NOT who I am anymore. God has brought not just healing to me and my family but has brought LIFE. I am LIVING and growing daily...with ALL of my children actively in my life...we are a rebuilt family, each moving forward with our lives! I have enjoyed Thanksgiving and Christmas with my children and grateful to PRAISE God for his faithfulness. Wishing you all a Merry, Merry Christmas and a 2018 year filled with great HOPE! "May the God of hope fill you with all and peace as you trust in Him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Rm. 15:13?? "

I think it's wonderful that Nancy responded with the update.  She seems like a lovely woman whose faith is important to her.  However, I'm sorry.  I'm not a big fan of her two daughters.  While they are not obligated to talk to or update Dateline, it would have served them well to have at least issued a brief statement.  The older daughter Ashley seemed almost annoyed AT HER MOTHER for getting shot, while she came across as "Awww, shucks, Dad had an affair.  No biggie."

The blackmail story was a load of crap.  I also believe the Hee Haw Gang.

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10 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

I think it's wonderful that Nancy responded with the update.  She seems like a lovely woman whose faith is important to her.  However, I'm sorry.  I'm not a big fan of her two daughters.  While they are not obligated to talk to or update Dateline, it would have served them well to have at least issued a brief statement.  The older daughter Ashley seemed almost annoyed AT HER MOTHER for getting shot, while she came across as "Awww, shucks, Dad had an affair.  No biggie."

The blackmail story was a load of crap.  I also believe the Hee Haw Gang.

Yeah nothing about how the program ended was as negative as the interviews they gave, they simple stated they didn't know if they still felt the same way as they did when they were interviewed because they didn't respond, I thought that was generous because they most likely still have their heads up their asses about it. 

So to tell you this Nancy but your daughters are awful.

Edited by biakbiak
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You know, up until the big reveal I thought "John" was going to be the rich client in cahoots with the mistress.....somehow. The Hee Haw guy they interviewed needs his own show. Everyone has already said what I was thinking as I was watching the show. Good episode. 

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Article in Dallas Magazine with a lot more details including how John got Billie's number, he had a client that employed an ex girlfriend of Billie who he was stalking and he asked for his number saying he would get him to stop, and another motive for the murder that I don't think was mentioned that a divorce would result in his finances being scrutinized and increase the chance of the embezzlement being uncovered.

Fun factor his defense contractor boss also went to jail on unrelated prescription drug charges.

Edited by biakbiak
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2 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

another motive for the murder that I don't think was mentioned that a divorce would result in his finances being scrutinized and increase the chance of the embezzlement being uncovered.

That reminds me of another thing that was brought up in this episode, and it's a thing I see in many of these kinds of shows: the whole thing about how these people can't get a divorce, because that would go against their morals or religious beliefs or "family man" persona or whatever.

Murder, on the other hand? Yeah, that's totally fine. 

But of course, those "moral/religious reasons" are nothing more than BS. The real reason they don't want a divorce is more for the very sort of thing you note-the fear they'll lose something of value to them. And in those instances, all I can think is, "Well, you've still managed to lose all of that anyway, this time for good, because you're now in jail, so...good thinking, genius!"

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7 hours ago, Annber03 said:

That reminds me of another thing that was brought up in this episode, and it's a thing I see in many of these kinds of shows: the whole thing about how these people can't get a divorce, because that would go against their morals or religious beliefs or "family man" persona or whatever.

Murder, on the other hand? Yeah, that's totally fine. 

But of course, those "moral/religious reasons" are nothing more than BS. The real reason they don't want a divorce is more for the very sort of thing you note-the fear they'll lose something of value to them. And in those instances, all I can think is, "Well, you've still managed to lose all of that anyway, this time for good, because you're now in jail, so...good thinking, genius!"

We used to belong to a conservative Christian denomination, and so we know the vernacular.  It's not unheard of for murders in those circumstances to be referred to as a (fill in the name of the denomination) "___________ divorce."  Ours was a smaller denomination, but even that one had a case that made it to a Dateline-type show.

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Well, that article sure lays out all the details. It’s old too, so we still don’t get a feel for the kids ‘processing’.  Hopefully Nancy is accurate in her current depiction of their relationship.  Still amazed at how easily people can hide their true nature. 

Edited by mythoughtis
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8 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Article in Dallas Magazine with a lot more details including how John got Billie's number, he had a client that employed an ex girlfriend of Billie who he was stalking and he asked for his number saying he would get him to stop, and another motive for the murder that I don't think was mentioned that a divorce would result in his finances being scrutinized and increase the chance of the embezzlement being uncovered.

Fun factor his defense contractor boss also went to jail on unrelated prescription drug charges.

Thank you for posting this.  I like that the author likened the case to a Coen brothers movie.  That's really an apt comparison. 

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36 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Thank you for posting this.  I like that the author likened the case to a Coen brothers movie.  That's really an apt comparison. 

 

So true! I was waiting for someone to start making dark jokes in the show. I find it really amusing he was swindled out of piles of (stolen) $$ and taken down by a bunch of drug-addled rednecks called the Hee Haw gang, hehe. You can't make this up. 

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Then her reaction to her dad’s infidelity. Almost hand-waving it “Dad, don’t cheat on mom” with this smiley face, like if she was asking a baby or a pet to stop doing something naughty. That irked me.

Yeah, I wonder if that daughter is married. Seems like her husband has a free pass to cheat on her, knowing his wife will just laugh it off with a finger wag and a smile.

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That "humans don't murder, and my dad is a human" speech might just be the stupidest, most cringe-inducing bundle of words I've ever heard uttered on this show.

Hated the daughters. And I agree with those who said the older daughter almost seemed mad at her mom for getting shot. What hurt the most, for me, was seeing Nancy's pain when talking about them not sitting with her in court. There was a short clip of them hugging her in court and then walking back to the other side, and the hugs were frosty and short, with a couple of pats on the back, not at all the way you would hug your mother, whom you love, who almost died, who lost everything and only has her children. 

I hate those little assholes. 

I loved what the prosecutor said when asked why John didn't mind wasting money on the hee haw gang for years. Something like "well he didn't earn that money. You feel differently when you work for money versus when you steal it."

Anyway, glad he's in prison, hope he rots. I hope Nancy continues to be happy. I hope the assholes spend every day making up for their horrible treatment of their mother.

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2 hours ago, bubbls said:

So true! I was waiting for someone to start making dark jokes in the show. I find it really amusing he was swindled out of piles of (stolen) $$ and taken down by a bunch of drug-addled rednecks called the Hee Haw gang, hehe. You can't make this up. 

Truly, that was why I believed the Hee Haw Gang...because of the level of stupid, like the $8000 blowing off the top of the car and the other guy saying he bought that list of stuff....four-wheelers, etc with his share.  The odds that someone would "rehearse" that as part of a cover story seems very small.  The story was so stupid, it must be true!

2 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

That "humans don't murder, and my dad is a human" speech might just be the stupidest, most cringe-inducing bundle of words I've ever heard uttered on this show.

Hated the daughters. And I agree with those who said the older daughter almost seemed mad at her mom for getting shot. What hurt the most, for me, was seeing Nancy's pain when talking about them not sitting with her in court. There was a short clip of them hugging her in court and then walking back to the other side, and the hugs were frosty and short, with a couple of pats on the back, not at all the way you would hug your mother, whom you love, who almost died, who lost everything and only has her children. 

I hate those little assholes. 

I loved what the prosecutor said when asked why John didn't mind wasting money on the hee haw gang for years. Something like "well he didn't earn that money. You feel differently when you work for money versus when you steal it."

Anyway, glad he's in prison, hope he rots. I hope Nancy continues to be happy. I hope the assholes spend every day making up for their horrible treatment of their mother.

The one that got me was Ashley saying that she went to the prison and saw the same person that she had for 28 years or whatever.  No.  Your father was embezzling money in addition to wanting your mother dead.  Even if his daughters are in denial about Frank's role in the murder plot, he was convicted of embezzling money.  Therefore, he was not the "same person" that his daughters had known.

Edited by Ohmo
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1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

The one that got me was Ashley saying that she went to the prison and saw the same person that she had for 28 years or whatever.  No.  Your father was embezzling money in addition to wanting your mother dead.  Even if his daughters are in denial about Frank's role in the murder plot, he was convicted of embezzling money.  Therefore, he was not the "same person" that his daughters had known.

I believe the devoted bucket-mouthed daughter.  She's right - the person she saw in prison was the same person she had known for 28 years....an asshole.

An asshole with a really weird part in his hair. 

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I've been thinking about this one a lot. I cannot imagine supporting your dad after he'd had a long affair on what appeared to be a devoted wife (sometimes affairs are understandable, I recognize that). Maybe I'm a horrible, judgmental, grudge holder, but the cheating alone would require a very long time for me to get over. While I know it's a big leap from adultery to murder, the cheating was indicitave of his lack of character. You'd think it would cause them to pause and reconsider how well they really knew their dad. MAYBE if he hadn't cheated I, as a daughter, could persuade myself he was framed for the murder attempt, but when you stack the cheating on the embezzling on the murder attempt that's a pretty big mountain of bad character traits. 

 

You know, two tiny alarms went off in the beginning. When he said he was in the casino I thought that was odd considering his faith. Then I chastised myself for being judgmental. The other thing was when he cried about his daughter being in NICU. My nephew was in NICU for two weeks when he was born. That was only 8 years ago and nobody cries about it. Once again I chastised myself for being so judgmental. 

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3 hours ago, PsychoKlown said:

I believe the devoted bucket-mouthed daughter.  She's right - the person she saw in prison was the same person she had known for 28 years....an asshole.

An asshole with a really weird part in his hair. 

Thw other thing that was nonsense about the 28 year bullshit was that for several years he was leading a double life and they had absolutely no idea. 

Edited by biakbiak
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1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

Thw other thing that was nonsense about the 28 year bullshit was that for several years he was leading a double life and they had absolutely no idea. 

According to the Dallas article, he had also embezzled from the flavor company that was his local client.  That's how he met the gang that couldn't shoot straight.  He was a long-time con artist/creep.  Dateline blew it by leaving this important link out.

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After watching Friday's show and reading these posts (and agreeing with the comments about the daughters), I felt nothing but sympathy for Nancy.  She seemed like such a sweetheart.

After finding the link to the ebook, apparently she does have claws.  From the intro:  "At what point does a good man become someone else?  Is it when he looks across a casino floor and sees a woman whom he decides to approach, a less-than-beautiful woman with a voice that irritates most people?  Surely Satan has better tools."

Horrific experience notwithstanding, my first reaction to reading this?  Meeeeeooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww.  I usually don't have much sympathy for the "other woman" but she was not the main tool - your husband is!

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3 hours ago, nora1992 said:

Horrific experience notwithstanding, my first reaction to reading this?  Meeeeeooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww.  I usually don't have much sympathy for the "other woman" but she was not the main tool - your husband is!

Yeah she can be pissed at her, but from accounts he was already embezzling before her and I have no doubt this was not his first affair so laying the blame at her feet is ridiculous.

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3 hours ago, nora1992 said:

Horrific experience notwithstanding, my first reaction to reading this?  Meeeeeooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww.  I usually don't have much sympathy for the "other woman" but she was not the main tool - your husband is!

Unfortunately that tends to be a common reaction when it comes to affairs. I think a lot of it is that people just find it easier to hate on and blame somebody they don't know very well than it would be to confront the person they'd come to love and trust for betraying them instead. If somebody confronts their significant other in a situation like this,, that could lead to major changes they may not be ready to deal with or handle. It may lead them to question their ability to trust people, or wonder how they missed the signs something was wrong. Or maybe they're thinking it was something they did/said, or the way they look, that drove their loved one into somebody else's arms, and that naturally scares and upsets them (none of that would be a valid reason to be cheated on, obviously, just noting that unfortunately, some people will sometimes blame themselves).

So they take all that anger and hurt and pain that, as you note, should be directed at the person who broke their vows to them, and dump it all on the other person instead, thus possibly saving them having to deal with those questions and uncertainties and fears. It's not fair or right, though, no. Even if the other woman knows a guy is married and comes on to him anyway, yeah, she's in the wrong for doing that, but he's still a grown man and is responsible for his own actions. And the wife can blame the other woman all they want in these sorts of situations, but that's not going to fix the problems in their marriage, or take away those doubts and fears they're trying to avoid dealing with. 

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49 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Unfortunately that tends to be a common reaction when it comes to affairs. I think a lot of it is that people just find it easier to hate on and blame somebody they don't know very well than it would be to confront the person they'd come to love and trust for betraying them instead. If somebody confronts their significant other in a situation like this,, that could lead to major changes they may not be ready to deal with or handle. It may lead them to question their ability to trust people, or wonder how they missed the signs something was wrong. Or maybe they're thinking it was something they did/said, or the way they look, that drove their loved one into somebody else's arms, and that naturally scares and upsets them (none of that would be a valid reason to be cheated on, obviously, just noting that unfortunately, some people will sometimes blame themselves).

So they take all that anger and hurt and pain that, as you note, should be directed at the person who broke their vows to them, and dump it all on the other person instead, thus possibly saving them having to deal with those questions and uncertainties and fears. It's not fair or right, though, no. Even if the other woman knows a guy is married and comes on to him anyway, yeah, she's in the wrong for doing that, but he's still a grown man and is responsible for his own actions. And the wife can blame the other woman all they want in these sorts of situations, but that's not going to fix the problems in their marriage, or take away those doubts and fears they're trying to avoid dealing with. 

I get the need to blame someone, but picking on someone for the way she looks/sounds doesn't seem to be in keeping with the rest of Nancy's demeanor.  The pages I read almost all include a Bible quote or reference to a special blessing she's received.  Write about how horrific Nancy finds carrying on with another woman's husband, but claiming that NEARLY EVERYONE finds the other woman's voice irritating?  

Didn't Jesus say something about she who casts stones?  It made the rest of the blessing/missions excerpts read false to me.  And I don't even know the other woman's name; I am not on her side.  But even the victim can aim low, and that intro is a LOW BLOW.  If you must, cast aspersions on what people CAN change about themselves - one's appearance/voice might be modified, but why should it have to be?

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2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Unfortunately that tends to be a common reaction when it comes to affairs. I think a lot of it is that people just find it easier to hate on and blame somebody they don't know very well than it would be to confront the person they'd come to love and trust for betraying them instead. If somebody confronts their significant other in a situation like this,, that could lead to major changes they may not be ready to deal with or handle

Yeah, like that lady who rammed her husband on his motorcycle while chasing down the woman he was having an affair with.

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2 hours ago, nora1992 said:

I get the need to blame someone, but picking on someone for the way she looks/sounds doesn't seem to be in keeping with the rest of Nancy's demeanor.  The pages I read almost all include a Bible quote or reference to a special blessing she's received.  Write about how horrific Nancy finds carrying on with another woman's husband, but claiming that NEARLY EVERYONE finds the other woman's voice irritating?  

Didn't Jesus say something about she who casts stones?  It made the rest of the blessing/missions excerpts read false to me.  And I don't even know the other woman's name; I am not on her side.  But even the victim can aim low, and that intro is a LOW BLOW.  If you must, cast aspersions on what people CAN change about themselves - one's appearance/voice might be modified, but why should it have to be?

Oh, yeah, I agree that with Nancy, that seemed a bit out of character for her, given her generally forgiving nature. I was mainly speaking in general terms with my post. 

But even the most forgiving people can sometimes have that moment of lashing out unnecessarily, I suppose? I dunno. You're right that there's the whole "casting stones" thing, but sometimes some religious people tend to forget (or outright overlook) that. More power to her if she's found comfort through her religious beliefs, but I will say that I did feel those sorts of comments from her were laid on kind of thick throughout the episode, so...

42 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

Yeah, like that lady who rammed her husband on his motorcycle while chasing down the woman he was having an affair with.

Oh, god, I remember that case. Yeah. That was utterly ridiculous. 

And I seem to remember hearing a murder case elsewhere once about a woman who'd actually tried to sue for "alienation of affection" because her husband had taken up with another woman. I don't think that lawsuit went anywhere, though.

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Nancy went through a lot, so I forgive her for a less than charitable moment. People say much worse about women’s appearances on this very forum and we don’t even know these women. 

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11 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Nancy went through a lot, so I forgive her for a less than charitable moment. People say much worse about women’s appearances on this very forum and we don’t even know these women. 

It's more than a moment, its several passages in a book in which she also talks about what a good Christian women she is and how she forgives her husband. I just find it extremely hypocritical.

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