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All Episodes Talk: Crime And Punishment

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Yeah, it really seemed like that crime could have been solved a lot earlier with a little effort.  I think the really interesting story would be why it wasn't.  I think they should have leaned a little harder on the original detective in the interviews.

Edited by tobeannounced
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I fell a sleep watching last night's episode so came here to see if any progress was made on this old cold case and Brittany found out who killed her mom. I guess not. So what was the purpose of two hours of ... nothing? To shame the police for not doing anything? It's my opinion that police/detectives are just people who got a job and are doing the least possible to keep getting a pay check (government workers ... you don't have to actually be good at what you are being paid to "do."). As for men killing women, I guess since they continue to get away with it, as Dateline has proven, it won't stop.

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Some episodes should be two hours (Colonel killer, theatre actor and his convoluted plot, etc). Some should not. Last night's was definitely one of the latter. Zzzzzz.

But glad to see they got justice for the mom. Hopefully the dad gets his act together.

That's all I got.

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7 hours ago, saber5055 said:

I fell a sleep watching last night's episode so came here to see if any progress was made on this old cold case and Brittany found out who killed her mom. I guess not. So what was the purpose of two hours of ... nothing? To shame the police for not doing anything? It's my opinion that police/detectives are just people who got a job and are doing the least possible to keep getting a pay check (government workers ... you don't have to actually be good at what you are being paid to "do."). As for men killing women, I guess since they continue to get away with it, as Dateline has proven, it won't stop.

There was a conviction eventually, after the guy was tried twice.  

Spoiler

It was the guy who gave her a ride home from the bar.

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I really wondered what was wrong with the original cops on the case.  They did not appear to follow the clues or bother with the case.  And Roxie bothered me.  I think she hated Dana's boyfriend and really liked the bouncer.  So she added her personal opinion to the story she told.

I am glad they finally found him guilty.  I did want to see a map of the  area.  I wanted to know where the dance club was and where Roxie lived compared to where Dana lived.  Did the bouncer drop Roxie off first because he wanted to be alone with Dana?

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This episode reminded me of something that bothers me in nearly all of these cases. IMO scientific evidence (DNA, autopsies, forensic science) should be presented independently and no "experts" (for fact-based, scientific evidence) should be able to be hired by either the prosecution or defense to bolster their side. Like in this case, the prosecution expert says, "the head wound definitely couldn't be caused by falling out of a car" and then, low-and-behold!, the defense expert says, "the head wound was definitely consistent with falling out of a car". What's a jury supposed to think?

As soon as you pay someone to present evidence, they're swayed to your side. It seems that juries would have an easier time reaching a fair conclusion** if the fact-based evidence was presented by thoroughly vetted experts hired by the courts who can present independent facts. Of course both sides could then cross-examine the expert, but at least s/he wasn't being paid (= swayed) by either side.

** Not  a problem in this case, IMO--I think they got it right.

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On 2016-10-07 at 1:24 PM, FanOfTheFans said:

If she made that up, then shame shame on her. If someone killed my child, I would want the true murderer caught. You really have to be holding a grudge against a person to lie about them under these circumstances.  So she tries to get him convicted and in the meantime, the real bad guy is free?  If so, how pathetic.  

They said that apparently he did show up at her place at night a couple of times and they ended up having sex one of the times , so she lost a bit of credibility there. 

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The Brittany episode bored me as well. While I don't believe her mom fell out, I could not have voted to convict the bouncer. I think it's more likely she was pushed out by him or they got in a fight. 

There seemed to be zero evidence so I was surprised a jury voted to convict.

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I thought "A Dangerous Man" was very interesting and worthy of the 2 hours.  It reminded me of the commercials that I saw for that failed ABC series Blood and Oil.  James definitely belongs in prison for two life sentences, and while the hitman also belongs in prison, I do hope he does get mental health treatment while he's there.  I also felt sorry for Doug's wife.   Granted, she's a bit odd due to her level of religious devoutness, but she has the right to live that way if she chooses.

I think Sarah is guilty of crimes involving the business, but I believe she's innocent of anything related to James and his murderous plots.

Edited by Ohmo
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This episode proves how grief is very personal.  If there were one vague piece of evidence or an unexplainable coincidence, I don't doubt they would have charged that wife with the crime, and even convicted her.  Even knowing she's innocent, they made sure to stress how bizarre she was, and how much they disbelieved her. 

That's not to say she wasn't a little whacko.  When encountering a masked man in all black aiming a gun at her husband, her concern was why is he blinking at me?  Did she think he was signaling her in Blink Language?  And she didn't care about life insurance because the Lord would provide.  Does that hold true for health/homeowner/auto insurance?  

Everybody was so unlikable to me - including the wives, adult daughter, and the victim!

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Yes, I thought of Blood & Oil too.  I kept expecting to see Don Johnson walk on screen. 

They called the Spokane wife unique.  Yes, she did act strangely.  But I think she just told the story in an odd way.  Her husband sounded like a crooked businessman to me.  He had gone bankrupt several times but lived in the rich area with fancy cars.  He made enemies.  I didn't buy the wife talking about when they made money they would use it in wonderful ways to help the church.  How much more money did she need to do that?

Jake (I think that was his name) was a crook and just wanted to kill everyone that got in his way.  His Barbie wife seemed happy enough to do the books and live an entitled lifestyle till the killing started.  I believe she knew they were cheating people.  But when he started cheating on her that is when she woke up.  

Always happy to watch an episode with Keith. 

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14 hours ago, ButterQueen said:

How did they find out about the hit on the wife?  They never explained that.

I thought they said that the Department of Homeland Security had been investigating James' trucking company for awhile before Doug was murdered.  Then the two investigations were both happening.  I thought the DHS agent said they were monitoring James and that's how they found out about the hit on Sarah.

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8 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I thought they said that the Department of Homeland Security had been investigating James' trucking company for awhile before Doug was murdered.  Then the two investigations were both happening.  I thought the DHS agent said they were monitoring James and that's how they found out about the hit on Sarah.

But they never said who he hired that told on him.  It was a huge hole for me.

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I thought that the fact they didn't say who told them, was because they learned about it while listening to his phone calls with a wire tap and/or conversations with undercover informants and some investigations are still ongoing. The wife's fraud case isn't complete yet, either, I think it said on the chryon, and there were probably others wrapped up in the fraud. If they said they heard him on wiretap, it may have tipped off others who were in business with him.

The wife said she had to go into hiding, and couldn't even tell her family where she was or that her husband hired a hitman. I don't they said for how long, but the fact they didn't immediately charge him for hiring a killer, just makes me believe it was a much bigger enterprise then they addressed on the show. I also believe the wife knew they were defrauding people, and his businesses were not on the up-an-up; she did the paperwork.

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I will forever treasure the image of those bed sheets hanging out the jail window in broad daylight...  a window no adult human could fit through. LOL!

James's wife had to know there were improprieties. She is probably going with the Teresa Guidice defense: "I didn't know anything, I'm just really stupid and pretty and I sign any papers when I'm told, tee hee."

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3 hours ago, glowlights said:

I will forever treasure the image of those bed sheets hanging out the jail window in broad daylight...  a window no adult human could fit through. LOL!

James's wife had to know there were improprieties. She is probably going with the Teresa Guidice defense: "I didn't know anything, I'm just really stupid and pretty and I sign any papers when I'm told, tee hee."

It could be that or just maybe benefit of the doubt, the husband was pyscho maybe he made her sign them.  

Either way I'm glad that dude is locked away.

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Regarding "Secrets in the Smoky Mountains", I cannot get over the fact that Bob's "best" friend TOOK PICTURES of his dead body, posed in different positions with different props, and the pictures were KEPT by the friend and/or Bob's wife.  I have no idea why they were taken in the first place, but you'd have thought that after the cops had hauled in the friend/new husband and questioned him, and tried to get the pics in as evidence, that maybe they'd scrub the hard drives before giving the computer to the son.  It was so astonishingly stupid and coldblooded.

I was also curious why the other son wasn't in the story.  The son in the episode, Sean, was pictured as a kid with another brother and the other brother was passingly mentioned at the start.  I'm curious if he stuck by his mother or was dead or what.

In any event, it was a sad case.  Murder is never good, but messing with someone's PTSD meds probably made Bob feel worse and it seemed especially cruel of the friend/new husband, since they met at PTSD treatment.  It made me wonder if the friend was out trolling for PTSD marks, since it came out he really didn't see much by way of combat.  He could have faked having PTSD since he faked injuries for benefits and his service record.

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Maybe the other brother didn't want to be on the show since the lighting is so bad.  I get ghoulishly lighting Keith, but damn the interviewees should have more flattering lighting if they ever expect me to agree to an interview.

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How people can be so cruel and evil and cold is beyond me. Those two are pieces of... let's say "work." Plus the stupidity was amazing -keeping those photos. What was the point of the photos anyway?

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As others have mentioned, many of these Dateline episodes do not need to be stretched out to two hours, but it was interesting.  

I wonder if Martha Anne or Bob's friend (name?) was thinking about killing Bob before they hooked up - Martha Anne because she was tired of dealing with an ill husband, and Friend because he fell in love with his buddy's wife.  So many things about these two sickened me, but their sheer greed was amazing.  Both of them cheating the government for funds that should be used for REAL military folks.  I recently found out about the "stolen valor" law and have been on Youtube watching those creeps get busted by people who really served. Did Martha Anne have this grifting gene all along or did Friend infect her?  Neither of them seemed lower class and scraping for funds before Bob was killed, so why the sudden need to bilk, lie and scam for money?  

I don't remember from the show, but did Bob have a big insurance policy?  As soon as I wrote that sentence, I recalled the fact that insurance companies won't pay for suicides, right?  So I guess this was not a murder to cash in on a big policy, huh?  So many of these murders could be solved by a quick run to the nearest lawyer to file divorce papers, so it makes me wonder why Martha Anne didn't do that, as there was no insurance money to be gained because they staged Bob as a suicide.  My only guess is that Bob was suffering from PTSD/depression and there may be family backlash at leaving a "sick" man, but murder is a drastic work-around to splitting from your husband.

Sorry this is such a rambling thought vomit... those two made me stabby.

Edited by patty1h · Reason: To clarify my thoughts
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The Smoky Mountains episode made me sick.  When I think about veterans who need assistance and those two stealing $10k a month from the government, it makes my blood boil.  They were just evil personified.  

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      Martha made me sick too on the stand testifying about Chuck lying about his military status and awards ... didn't she do THE SAME THING?  

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I think that insurance companies can only deny payment for suicides if it happens within a certain time frame of purchase; two years I think. That means it wasn't purchased for the purpose of committing suicide for the funds. She also received his military pension and other retirement funds.

The son that was on the show created a Twitter account for last night's show. He says his adoption records are full of forgery, too, and everything he was taught as a kid was a lie. Dateline made video regarding his adoption. It is in three parts, about five minutes each. I found it rather interesting. He is trying to find out information on his ancestry, and he said it will be a follow-up. I'm posting the three parts under the spoiler tag, just so it doesn't bog down the page.

Spoiler

*

 

 

 

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I have been so sick all week, and passed out last night without knowing how this ended.  How did they get caught?  The son, what happened when she looked at him with the death stare?  Any info is welcomed.  Thank you.

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The first time they showed Chuck with all the medals I said that at least some of them looked fake but when they started on about he was in all these groups I thought I must have been mistaken. Nope.

Also, these greedy bastards only buying one of the cheapest wheelchairs on the market for their fraud game cracked me up.

The lightning and makeup department was no one's friend this episode!

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10 hours ago, biakbiak said:

The first time they showed Chuck with all the medals I said that at least some of them looked fake but when they started on about he was in all these groups I thought I must have been mistaken. Nope.

Also, these greedy bastards only buying one of the cheapest wheelchairs on the market for their fraud game cracked me up.

The lightning and makeup department was no one's friend this episode!

I thought the same about the one wheelchair. WHO DOES THAT? At least get both of their-lying-ass-selves their own wheelchairs. It's not like they didn't have the money. GEES

Also, when the investigating agent set up the two appointments to be at the same time, I thought what's to stop one of them from rescheduling the appointment? What with the "dilemma" of one wheelchair between the two of them, and all. [/sarcasmo] Sure enough , Chuck hobbles in with a walker AND cane AND oxygen - add the oxygen for good measure. And she is wheeling in behind him.   STUNNING  Pretending to be disabled just screams evil and at the very least - bad karma

Edited by ari333
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On October 16, 2016 at 10:06 PM, Miss chi chi said:

Dateline needs to get a new makeup and hair person. The interviewees look rediculous.

I assumed they did their own, because yikes!

On October 22, 2016 at 9:44 AM, Lizzing said:

Regarding "Secrets in the Smoky Mountains", I cannot get over the fact that Bob's "best" friend TOOK PICTURES of his dead body, posed in different positions with different props, and the pictures were KEPT by the friend and/or Bob's wife.  I have no idea why they were taken in the first place, but you'd have thought that after the cops had hauled in the friend/new husband and questioned him, and tried to get the pics in as evidence, that maybe they'd scrub the hard drives before giving the computer to the son.  It was so astonishingly stupid and coldblooded.

I was also curious why the other son wasn't in the story.  The son in the episode, Sean, was pictured as a kid with another brother and the other brother was passingly mentioned at the start.  I'm curious if he stuck by his mother or was dead or what.

In any event, it was a sad case.  Murder is never good, but messing with someone's PTSD meds probably made Bob feel worse and it seemed especially cruel of the friend/new husband, since they met at PTSD treatment.  It made me wonder if the friend was out trolling for PTSD marks, since it came out he really didn't see much by way of combat.  He could have faked having PTSD since he faked injuries for benefits and his service record.

It was the wife's idea to kill him.  Her new husband was her pawn.

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Dateline just posted this on their Facebook page - Amber Hilberling, who was convicted of second degree murder after pushing her husband out of the window of their 25th floor apartment, was found dead in her jail cell.  No details on how she died yet.

I know she had a child, and I think her mother had custody.  I wonder if her husband's family can now make a case for custody.

ETA: This article claims some sources say she was found hanging.  It also lists all of her misconduct offenses in jail - 13 in about three years.

Edited by pigs-in-space
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21 minutes ago, pigs-in-space said:

  I wonder if her husband's family can now make a case for custody.

 

I would have thought the father's family already had the best case.  Maybe they are too old or not able to care for the child. 

Every time they show that high rise apartment building I go back to being shocked that a push could break that glass.  Children running could go right through!  I always assumed the glass in those buildings was almost unbreakable.  I couldn't live in a place if I thought a stumble by the window could mean death.  You'd find all my furniture and me huddled against the interior wall.

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On 10/22/2016 at 9:44 AM, Lizzing said:

It made me wonder if the friend was out trolling for PTSD marks, since it came out he really didn't see much by way of combat.  He could have faked having PTSD since he faked injuries for benefits and his service record.

I completely believe that Chuck was trolling the PTSD treatment centers for victims and that he didn't have PTSD at all.  Then, by sheer circumstance, he met Martha Ann who was even more devious than him.  I don't believe he was anyone's pawn,  Of the two of them, however, his heart wasn't as dark as hers.  I think Chuck was motivated by greed and fame, while Martha Ann had no problem with murder.

On 10/22/2016 at 4:11 PM, Samwil said:

I have been so sick all week, and passed out last night without knowing how this ended.  How did they get caught?  The son, what happened when she looked at him with the death stare?  Any info is welcomed.  Thank you.

Once Agent Nate and Sean were able to bust them both because of the fraud and the pictures, the authorities were able to use the pictures to get Chuck to flip on Martha Ann.  He said the poisoning was all her idea and he had no part in that.

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Did they ever explain why the corpse was photographed??? Why would Chuck and Martha want to keep damning evidence of their crime? 

ITA the hair and makeup for interviewees has been awful lately.

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Tonight's episode, "In Cold Blood" gave me the chills. The guy found guilty was as creepy as they come and not a very good liar. He's telling a friend all about what he did, his first mistake. There's no way that woman just randomly started shooting at him unless he deserved to be shot at.

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The defense attorney was ridiculous! "Lance said the sex was consensual so that is reasonable doubt," ignoring the bloody battered dead victim on the floor.

What was with the ugly ass orange dress that Andrea wore at the crime scene and the wrinkly purple low cut dress.

Edited by biakbiak
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3 hours ago, biakbiak said:

What was with the ugly ass orange dress that Andrea wore at the crime scene and the wrinkly purple low cut dress.

 

Seriously!  When the show started I was complaining that we didn't have the Crypt Keeper on Halloween, but then Andrea came out in that dress and scared the pajamas off me.

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My husband (who is a police officer) watched last nights episode with me and here is his comments. You should not associate yourself with low life people and if you have to hire them for a job, keep home and work separate. Don't invite people a lot less fortunate (and with criminal records), to come to your home and see what you have. And don't leave spare keys outside where anyone can find them. And what kind of gated community was this when the guy could just come in? I'm not blaming the husband, but I would be uncomfortable having these types of guys around my house. I also felt really bad that of course they had to bring up that she was on anti-depression meds. I hate this, because defense attorneys use this  to suggest, the person was on meds, they must be crazy. I know this wasn't the case here, but it was brought up several times and it is no different than being medicated for any other illness. I don't ever think I would want to take this kind of medication because there is such a stigma involved. 

Edited by Madding crowd
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I found it amusing that every time they presented a new suspect the female DA would tell us why he did it.  They really wanted to introduce a lot of suspects in this one. 

I did enjoy the way the cop had Lance cornered in the room when he was questioning him.  It was an interesting visual. 

Lance was a creep.  I can't believe the husband had ever invited him into their home.  I blame the husband for some of this.  He invited some odd people into their home.  Meanwhile he was having an affair.  I wanted to know if his new wife is the girlfriend he had while he was married.  Also he acted stupid for a firefighter.  Covering the body and claiming it was suicide.  He also changed his story at the police station.  He left me shaking my head.   

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Something about the husband set off my hinky meter.

Also,I agree with above that you cant invite every person who "needs help" INTO YOUR HOME.  Didn't the Smarts do that and that's how the girl, Elizabeth,  got kidnapped? It's like... well... you''ve been in jail, may have substance issues, really in need of money, there's vast expensive gated home, many expensive possessions, a beautiful wife.... oh please.

Yeah, invite a 20 something year old drifter fresh out of jail and /or desperate into your home.  And leave an effing key outside AND tell the dude WHERE IT IS. To me, that is just setting up the situation and then watching it play out which I think is what the husband had in mind. He didn't have to ask the guy to do it. He didn't have to pay him. The dude put it together on his own and it was not unforeseen by the husband that his would happen, if you ask me.

If you must hire someone , why let them stay in your home? Giving someone a job is plenty Jesus.

One red flag (of several)  of insincerity for me was when Derrick (the husband) said that Lance would,  "take a bullet for her." Oh please. 

I, too, didn't like the emphasis on her depression and medication.

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Forgot one thing about Andrea that really annoyed me, other than her outfits, is that she told the tv installer that the husband had fingered him as a possible suspect. No when they found our that someone other than him or his his wife had used the dvd player he remembered that the Tv dude had been there the day before.  He had alreadty mentioned the two dudes before him. She made it sound like he had called him out immediately as a suspect.

Edited by biakbiak
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That tv installer dude came across to me as totally not involved in anything bad. Derrick seemed too intent at pointing at him while over-doing it (imo) in  giving Lance a pass.

I was a little confused as to who was driving the "borrowed" SUV that was seen on the security camera and why was the gate open? why have a gate if anyone can just drive in?

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Most gated communities, you either have a key or the passcode to get in. This is smelling more and more like the husband encouraged the bad boy to help him get rid of his wife. Too many tears and sobs.

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Most gated communities, you either have a key or the passcode to get in. This is smelling more and more like the husband encouraged the bad boy to help him get rid of his wife. Too many tears and sobs.

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8 minutes ago, Major Bigtime said:

Most gated communities, you either have a key or the passcode to get in. This is smelling more and more like the husband encouraged the bad boy to help him get rid of his wife. Too many tears and sobs.

YES. And the fact that he said on the 911 call that she killed herself is absurd considering the blood that would have been on her face.  Brand new wife, he keeps the beautiful house..... something doesn't sit right. However, I think he just made it easy for that Lance. If he had actually asked Lance to do it, Lance would hve thrown Derrick under the bus by now. The husband set up an irresistible temptation as bait and Lance bit. Who tells a person not in the family or a very close, long time, trusted friend that there is a house key under the ceramic dog? And the dog is overturned. Clue much?

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3 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

And don't leave spare keys outside where anyone can find them

That's what struck me, too, especially if you'd had acquaintances living in your house.

 

32 minutes ago, Major Bigtime said:

This is smelling more and more like the husband encouraged the bad boy to help him get rid of his wife. Too many tears and sobs.

I don't think that because Lance never offered it up as a possibility.  During the trial, he went with "we had consensual sex" and things deteriorated from there."  Then we heard him say that he never thought he was in danger of the death penalty.  If you're looking at death, that's the time to offer up the husband if he's involved somehow.  That didn't happen.  Derrick's not perfect, but I don't think he had any part in the events that killed his wife.

ETA: Gotta say, I believed Derrick.  Being too trusting and wanting to help people is not a crime.  I think he demonstrated poor judgement, sure, but I don't think he was hinky.  A little too clueless for his own good, but some people are like that.  I found nothing weird about him covering Kim.  He was thinking like a husband, not a firefighter.  These were his colleagues, and I'm sure he didn't like the thought of Kim being naked in front of them.

Edited by Ohmo
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This may sound bitchy. As long as the wife was young, thin, and beautiful everything was peachy. She got depressed like humans do ; she gained a few pounds; she got a little older.... people to do that. Time for a new woman. Let's invite one (or was it two) stray men to LIVE in the opulent house and see what happens and also tell where the key is and perhaps the gate code too.

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