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All Episodes Talk: Crime And Punishment

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2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm convinced it was the sister and/or her husband and the mother was just covering for them. She must have figured what the hell, she was dying of cancer anyway. Clearly she couldn't have dragged her son all the way downstairs and buried him all by herself if she couldn't even lift a gallon of milk.

I know, but I thought it could be plausible that his mother shot him and sister and brother-in-law disposed of the body.

Or sister could have done it and mother covered for her. In that case, though, you love one child that much and hate the other child that much? They are both your children.

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12 hours ago, hookedontv said:

Is there enough room on that couch for me? (Please note: I refuse sit on a couch covered in rat feces though.)

First thing I thought of too....

That couch needs to be massive. All I thought about was their teeth.

 

A Hoarders and Dateline crossover episode would be amazing.

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On 9/22/2020 at 3:34 PM, TVbitch said:

The ranch hand was infuriating: "I didn't say anything cuz these people were like my family."

Dude, they murdered their own son/brother, and you said you felt so threatened you couldn't even sleep at night. WTF?! 

Same!  Dude, find another less murdery family. 

On 9/22/2020 at 2:12 PM, saber5055 said:

 

I also wonder who is running/owning the ranch now that everyone in the family is either dead or in prison. Dateline always leaves me with unanswered questions.

People on FB (under Dateline’s posts) are saying that Jake & Stephanie’s biological father won a lawsuit and now owns the ranch. He plans to sell. Deb’s husband that died originally owned the ranch and the bio father are brothers. Yes, Deb married brothers. 

It does sound like Jake was left the ranch by stepdad/uncle. Not sure how mom and sister were going to claim it if Jake “disappeared”.  

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7 minutes ago, Tdoc72 said:

Deb’s husband that died originally owned the ranch and the bio father are brothers. Yes, Deb married brothers.  

Oh, really? That's interesting...

Further proof of my suspicions there's a LOT more weird issues in this family's past than were revealed here. 

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I just watched Left for Dead. Wow! Talk about life being stranger than fiction! Without the DNA evidence, he never would have been caught in a million years, because literally nothing about him even hinted at psychopathy. 

Hearing about the struggles of the victim, the detective, and even the policeman who found her, over several years, reminded me that one criminal act can have ripple effects that go on for years, even lifetimes. 

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1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

I just watched Left for Dead. Wow! Talk about life being stranger than fiction! Without the DNA evidence, he never would have been caught in a million years, because literally nothing about him even hinted at psychopathy. 

I wonder if he was the one that asked her to be their roommate? I dont remember if they mentioned it.

It sickened me to find out about what he searched for on google.

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2 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

I wonder if he was the one that asked her to be their roommate? I dont remember if they mentioned it.

I forgot about this. Now I'm wondering how and why this came about. I'm also curious why the jury didn't find him guilty of attempted murder. 

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5 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

 I forgot about this. Now I'm wondering how and why this came about.

They skipped over that part quickly, they never really said how it really happened. Just that she moved in with friends, mainly guys.

Edited by MsJamieDornan
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7 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I'm also curious why the jury didn't find him guilty of attempted murder. 

Me too. Or were they all of the mindset that a violent rape and beating have nothing to do with killing a woman. If so, I will be happy to sit down and have a come-to-Jesus talk with all of them. It’s time people start waking up to the reality of domestic abuse and violence against women today. It’s not like when a man would slap his wife for burning the chicken back in the 60s.

Just before this aired, I watched a Law & Order rerun that had the same type of outcome. Literally, and I wondered if WE Tv put that L&O in that time slot on purpose because they knew I’d be watching it first. LOL

I felt so badly for the victim. I understand her unwillingness to believe it was her friend. I started thinking about a male friend that I’d been close to for so long, and how would I react if the police told me he was the person who raped and beat me??

I’m so glad she decided to testify. She said it empowered her and helped her to get her life back. I work with abused women and victims of domestic violence and getting them not to drop the case, or to testify against their attacker, is the hardest hurdle I face.

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20 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

I wonder if he was the one that asked her to be their roommate? I dont remember if they mentioned it.

I wanted to know how he found her in order to be one of the roommates?  Sounds like he continued to stalk her.  Did he figure out her name due to the publicity of the case?

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47 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

 i wanted to know how he found her in order to be one of the roommates?

Yes !  But wouldnt Dateline have jumped on that and told us all about it ? I think there was more going on there than we know.

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52 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Yes !  But wouldnt Dateline have jumped on that and told us all about it ? I think there was more going on there than we know.

She made a point of saying that the detective didn't understand---that she didn't meet Sam until two years AFTER the attack.  I was surprised Dateline didn't pursue that line of query further.  There's no way that happens unless he orchestrated it to happen, which means he stalked her.

I was thinking about the not guilty of murder verdict.  Maybe the jury wasn't confident or unanimous on that charge, but they were on the rest. I could see them deciding to vote not guilty on that one if they thought the other charges would cumulatively be enough to keep him in prison for life.

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19 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

They skipped over that part quickly, they never really said how it really happened. Just that she moved in with friends, mainly guys.

I read that Moon rented out a room in the same house where Amber lived. It sounds like they weren't roommates in the traditional sense.

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49 minutes ago, druzy said:

I read that Moon rented out a room in the same house where Amber lived. It sounds like they weren't roommates in the traditional sense.

Well, not really traditional since he was her rapist.

 

1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

She made a point of saying that the detective didn't understand---that she didn't meet Sam until two years AFTER the attack.  I was surprised Dateline didn't pursue that line of query further.  There's no way that happens unless he orchestrated it to happen, which means he stalked her.

Exactly !!!

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They also briefly said that Bryce, who knew the rapist since they were kids, was a boyfriend's friend.  It makes me wonder if he saw her on social media when her boyfriend hung out with his friend. 

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6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

They also briefly said that Bryce, who knew the rapist since they were kids, was a boyfriend's friend.  It makes me wonder if he saw her on social media when her boyfriend hung out with his friend. 

That's the part of this that's really disturbing.  Unfortunately, women being raped and assaulted by men that they know is not that uncommon.  That's terrible enough, but to be brutally attacked and THEN have the rapist place himself in the victim's life and become a friend to her is a whole other level of deranged,  She didn't even know him until years later.

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1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

That's terrible enough, but to be brutally attacked and THEN have the rapist place himself in the victim's life and become a friend to her is a whole other level of deranged,

I can't believe that Dateline let that part slip by, because I think thats what happened.

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I must have misssed an episode. When did the one you are all discussing air? Does anyone remember the title or if it was a new episode?

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2 hours ago, TVbitch said:

I must have misssed an episode. When did the one you are all discussing air? Does anyone remember the title or if it was a new episode?

Left for Dead.  It's on Dateline's website.  I missed it, too.  Watched it online.  NBC did a Thursday episode last week instead of a Friday episode.  The same thing happens this week as well.  Set your DVR accordingly.

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I had missed it, too, then watched online last night -- then went to bed upset. 

I know Amber made "bad choices" in her life, but the trapped in Hell aspect of a very young single mother with no parents around to help her was just so hopeless and horrible. to see.  Minimum wage jobs simply don't pay enough to live decently and raise a small child.  So Amber was doing things that seem stupid, like moving in with men, but if that was all she could afford she really had no choice.  They may have rented her a room at a very low price and extracted favors for the rest. 

Was her little boy with her there?  I don't think they said.  Next we saw the small apartment she had found for just herself and her son -- but it was while she was still terrified all the time that her rapist would find her again  -- and it was on the ground floor with her front door and window right on the sidewalk!

Probably Amber's only hope of living a less sordid life was to find a man to love her and so she was continuing to look for someone and all she found were  guys --at best-- like the one she worked with who went drinking with her and then left her alone and drunk in the park, and -- at worst-- her rapist.

I can only hope her TV moment will get her a nice guy of the kind, protective sort.  Do they still exist?

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Am I imagining things or was Amber's case highlighted on another true crime show?  I swear I've seen her before, but the funny thing is, the facts of her case didn't ring a bell... only her face.

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I feel terrible, but once the prosecutor showed up on this one all I could think was that he needs a consultation with Dr. Pimple Popper. 

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I'm almost done watching A Shot in the Dark. Cara's behaviour after the murder was so sketchy right from the start, not even counting her 10 versions of the story. 

I noticed she didn't do the usual "fake crying without tears" thing. Instead she opted for the less popular "speak very quietly and look at people with your eyes really wide to prove how honest you are" technique. Even in her mug shot! 

She seems to be one of those calm, unshakeable liars, but she can't be as smart as she thinks she is, if she thinks people aren't going to see through her lies. 

ETA What? I just heard the final verdict. I'm stunned. How awful for the victim's family. 

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8 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I had missed it, too, then watched online last night -- then went to bed upset. 

I know Amber made "bad choices" in her life, but the trapped in Hell aspect of a very young single mother with no parents around to help her was just so hopeless and horrible. to see.  Minimum wage jobs simply don't pay enough to live decently and raise a small child.  So Amber was doing things that seem stupid, like moving in with men, but if that was all she could afford she really had no choice.  They may have rented her a room at a very low price and extracted favors for the rest. 

Was her little boy with her there?  I don't think they said.  Next we saw the small apartment she had found for just herself and her son -- but it was while she was still terrified all the time that her rapist would find her again  -- and it was on the ground floor with her front door and window right on the sidewalk!

Probably Amber's only hope of living a less sordid life was to find a man to love her and so she was continuing to look for someone and all she found were  guys --at best-- like the one she worked with who went drinking with her and then left her alone and drunk in the park, and -- at worst-- her rapist.

I can only hope her TV moment will get her a nice guy of the kind, protective sort.  Do they still exist?

As usual Dateline left so much out. They were very vague about Amber's living situation at the time that the attack happened. They interviewed the person they called her sister in law who became her best friend, and said that the father of Amber's child was the brother in law of the sister in law. But who knows what that really means? They also said that the best friend/sister in law was helping to raise Amber's son, and was babysitting the child the night the attack happened. 

It was two years later when Amber moved into the house with all the roommates. I wondered as well if her son lived there. They did say that Sam actually slept on the couch, so I wondered if he came along after the fact (and under the guise of moving in the house with his friend) when he found out that Amber was living there?

I also didn't understand the whole stolen bike thing. Sam stole the bike from his friend and pawned it. But how did the pawn shop owner know it was Sam who pawned it if Sam gave false information? Or did Sam give his actual name etc, and the false information was that it was his bike? In any case if he hadn't stolen the bike and pawned it giving false information that turned out to be a crime worthy of having to give DNA, who knows if the case would ever have been solved.

Honestly this is one of those cases that if I had seen it as the plot for a fictional TV movie I would have said it was too far fetched to be believable. 

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1 hour ago, UsernameFatigue said:

Or did Sam give his actual name etc, and the false information was that it was his bike? In any case if he hadn't stolen the bike and pawned it giving false information that turned out to be a crime worthy of having to give DNA, who knows if the case would ever have been solved.

I think he gave his actual name and information but the false information was the claim that it was his bike to sell. Either that or there's a camera that caught identifying information on him and that's how they tracked him down.

But yep, that choice did him in.

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10 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

I feel terrible, but once the prosecutor showed up on this one all I could think was that he needs a consultation with Dr. Pimple Popper. 

You're not even half bad.  I was thinking how I'd like to remove his lump and use it to fill in the hole in Keith Morrison's frown line that was in the exact  same place.

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Okay watched Left for Dead online ~which between the ads every 5 minutes and the video freezing up after every ad was excruciating! 

Anyway, this is one of those cases where I feel like they left out a lot of information about the victim to avoid the victim being judged. When they were talking about her making "wrong choices" or however they phrased it, what I got was that she was doing some kind of sex work at some point. They were sketchy about her living situation, her parenting, etc. Maybe they felt this information would make her unsympathetic. But she is the victim of a horrible crime no matter what, and I hate when they do that.

So now I am wondering if perhaps she had used Craig's List in the past for her work and that's why Sam tried to use that as his story. And her "friend" in the park who left her there drunk. That is not a friend. I liked that they kept showing his picture, cuz it was egregious of him to leave her there passed out.

Amber said several times that she felt it was her fault, and she deserved it, because she got so drunk, but I was thinking there were other reasons she felt that way, too. In any case, I kept waiting for Keith to tell her it was not her fault and he didn't! WTF Keith!   

It is odd to me that after a assault like that she moved in with a house full of men. That would make me uncomfortable under any circumstances. I would go to a women's shelter first. Or why the hell wouldn't her best friend take her in for a bit, especially if her best friend is helping her raise the boy. So yeah, lots of stuff was confusing to me. 

I did enjoy how quickly Sam's parents were to say on TV what a stupid fuck up he was. 

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10 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Amber said several times that she felt it was her fault, and she deserved it, because she got so drunk, but I was thinking there were other reasons she felt that way, too. In any case, I kept waiting for Keith to tell her it was not her fault and he didn't! WTF Keith!   

I could have sworn that he did.  Like you, I watched online, but I seem to recall that she was wiping her eyes with a kleenex while saying that it was her fault, and Kieth replied, "You know that's not true."  Who knows?  Maybe I dreamed that, but I thought he did.

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I just watched a repeat from 2012 called "In The Middle of the Night" about an engineering student in 1984 who was raped and murdered after a night out. So many things made me mad about the case. 

A refresher:  She went out at night with two friends--a guy and a girl.  She dropped the guy off.  Then she dropped the girl off.  Then, according to her boyfriend, she came to quickly visit him at his place.  She left to go home.  At about 1:45 in the morning, he got a phone call from her telling him that she had let someone in the house to use the bathroom and phone.  He told her to call him back in a bit.  According to him, she didn't call him back so he tried calling her.  When she didn't answer, he went to her house.  She didn't answer the door and so he called the police.

They found her dead. 

The three suspects were the boyfriend. He smelled clean and seemed too calm for the cops.  Her ex-boyfriend, who she said had pulled a knife on her at once, was also a suspect.  The third suspect was the guy she had gone out with and dropped off on the night she was killed. 

It was a bit early for DNA but they did do a rape kit and were able to determine that the person who raped her was a secretor (can determine blood type from semen).  The current boyfriend and ex-boyfriend were non-secretors and so they were cleared.  That left them with the guy she went out with.  The friend who was out with them that night felt he might have a crush on the dead woman.

First thing that made me mad: So the cops focus in on the third guy who had lawyered up.  They kept trying to get him--to pressure him.  For months they'd pick him up every couple of weeks to bring him in for a chat. 

Makes sense, right?  Except, the boyfriend was cleared of being a suspect by virtue of the fact that he was not a non-secretor.  Shouldn't that have essentially cleared that third guy because once the boyfriend was cleared, it increased the likelihood that his version of what happened that night being credible.  And that version included phone calls from her and to her (which can be verified by using phone records).  And it also included the fact that she told them she had let a stranger in the house.  So was their theory that a perfectly innocent stranger came to the house, left and then the friend just happened to come in and rape her and kill her before her boyfriend got there?

Second thing that made me mad: It took over 20 years for them to run the DNA on the rape kit.  The only reason they did it is because the girlfriend who had gone out with her the night she was killed became a PI and tried to push the police to give her the evidence so she could investigate the murder.  They didn't but it did push them to run the DNA.  She always thought the guy they had gone out with had done it (so not a good PI, see reason #1 why I'm mad.) 

They wouldn't even let her pay for the rape kit. 

It turns out that it was a random stranger whose DNA was in the system because he was out on parole (after being convicted of rape) when he raped and murdered the woman.

Third thing that made me mad:  So he gets an attorney. She tries to throw blame on the three previously cleared suspects.  Makes sense.  But then she gets into "maybe she had consensual sex with random stranger dude."  "She was dressed provocatively at the club."  She was engaged in "risky" behavior.   Remember, this trial wasn't in the 80s but rather in the 2000s.  I wanted to smack her. 

It also kills me that she was like "would a woman really let someone in and then be so scared she'd call her boyfriend about him?"  Yeah, lady.  That's how it works. Women are conditioned to defer to me or try to appease men.  She probably realized it was a bad idea after she let him in which is why she called her boyfriend.

Thank you for letting me rant about old episodes that randomly end up on my DVR.

 

Edited by Irlandesa
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Fourth thing that made me mad about that case: The friend she called when she was scared was all, "Yeah let me take a shower and then I'll call you back and if you're dead by then I'll come over."

When someone dies as a result of their own kindness ( she let the guy in to "call his wife") it's just extra heartbreaking.

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Does anyone here know if the show American Murder is worth watching? Nobody appreciates True Crime like the people on this thread 😊

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25 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Does anyone here know if the show American Murder is worth watching? Nobody appreciates True Crime like the people on this thread 😊

It keeps popping up on my Netflix page -- I'll go watch it right now!

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9 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Does anyone here know if the show American Murder is worth watching? Nobody appreciates True Crime like the people on this thread 😊

I watched it.  I thought it was pretty interesting.  There's no narration.  No one telling the story.  It's all cobbled together from voice mails, texts, facebook videos, facebook posts, body cam footage, videos of the interrogations/questioning and court footage. 

It's also a very different angle from what we normally get here without the  "she was a bright light who walked into the room" narrative in that there were definitely moments that made her seem not very likable. 

So it's good.  And only about 80 minutes.

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Yes, what Irlandesa said.  All the videos made me feel like I really knew the family so it was all particularly awful when the bad stuff starts.   I prefer Keith or Josh's narration and the little bit of distance that gives us.  I also felt like I was invading the victim's privacy while reading some of the texts she sent her best friend.  Very interesting, immediate and heart pounding, but too dark for me.

 

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1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Very interesting, immediate and heart pounding, but too dark for me.

 

Ooh, thanks for doing that! I want to watch it but the little girls look so sweet I don't know if I can handle it, especially as you say, if it feels really real, with no distance. It's so true that the narration done in Keith's and Josh's melodious voices gives the stories a "Once upon a time" feeling. 

Given what's going on in the news today, maybe I'll hold off on it for now. I think maybe I've reached my current tension threshold. 

Thanks so much for the reviews. I knew this was the place to come for those. 

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Did anyone watch last night's update about the Daniel Markel case?  Y'all know it.  Florida State University law professor in the midst of nasty divorce is shot and killed.  His ex-wife is from a wealthy family of dentists. She, her brother, and her parents are suspected of paying for a hit.  Only problem is they have managed to insulate themselves. One of the shooters was convicted, but his girlfriend's (the alleged go-between between the shooter and the Adelsteins) trial ended up in a hung jury.  The suckiest part is that the State of Florida STILL can't find the evidence to nail the ex-wife or her family.  None of them have been arrested.  Grrr...because you will never convince me that they aren't involved.  A hitman from Miami doesn't drive to Tallahassee just to shoot some random guy in the guy's driveway.

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Yeah, I saw that one, too. I definitely think the family had a role in this, too. And the shooters admitted making two trips to Tallahassee, the first being to scout out the guy and whatnot. Again, not something you're gonna do just for the hell of it. 

I just kept wondering what that family's patients all must think, seeing them on the news like this. "And I trusted them near my mouth?!"

 

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8 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Grrr...because you will never convince me that they aren't involved. 

Due to breaking news during the west coast airing I didn’t get to do a full rewatch but I remember when the case first aired I absolutely thought the brother and parents hired the men but I actually don’t think the wife knew that they were going actually going to do it. Do I think she knows that they are guilty? Absolutely, but I think this was a problem they thought they would solve for her.

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22 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Did anyone watch last night's update about the Daniel Markel case?  Y'all know it.  Florida State University law professor in the midst of nasty divorce is shot and killed.  His ex-wife is from a wealthy family of dentists. She, her brother, and her parents are suspected of paying for a hit.  Only problem is they have managed to insulate themselves. One of the shooters was convicted, but his girlfriend's (the alleged go-between between the shooter and the Adelsteins) trial ended up in a hung jury.  The suckiest part is that the State of Florida STILL can't find the evidence to nail the ex-wife or her family.  None of them have been arrested.  Grrr...because you will never convince me that they aren't involved.  A hitman from Miami doesn't drive to Tallahassee just to shoot some random guy in the guy's driveway.

Thanks Ohmo for opening the floor on this topic… My blood is still boiling and I couldn’t get my thoughts together to do so myself. I am so angry at this story, it could not be more obvious that this was a set up, yet the entire family got away with it.  To deny the dead husband‘s parents access to the grandchildren plus to change the boys’ names back to their mother’s maiden name is the epitome of adding insult to injury.  I am deeply ashamed that they are of the same cultural background that I am and I sincerely hope that they ALL get their just desserts both in this world and the hereafter, should there be one. When the show first started and Dateline announced that they had been following the story since the beginning and would now update us, I was so excited to hear that at least the brother was going to jail if not the ex-wife and their parents...but NOTHING at all happened to any of them, which makes me so bitter and so sad. 

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2 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Due to breaking news during the west coast airing I didn’t get to do a full rewatch but I remember when the case first aired I absolutely thought the brother and parents hired the men but I actually don’t think the wife knew that they were going actually going to do it. Do I think she knows that they are guilty? Absolutely, but I think this was a problem they thought they would solve for her.

I agree. They're guilty. 

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..but NOTHING at all happened to any of them, which makes me so bitter and so sad. 

We didnt really learn anything new and they dragged this out and still nothing happened to any of the family.

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4 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

We didnt really learn anything new and they dragged this out and still nothing happened to any of the family.

This is shocking. I didn't watch because I assumed it was just a rehashing of the story, but I had assumed that everyone except the ex-wife had been found guilty. How on earth did they escape any kind of justice? 

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3 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

This is shocking. I didn't watch because I assumed it was just a rehashing of the story,

That's what they did ,,,but I thought the twist was going to be finding the family members guilty. Nope, didnt happen.

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13 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I absolutely thought the brother and parents hired the men but I actually don’t think the wife knew that they were going actually going to do it. Do I think she knows that they are guilty? Absolutely, but I think this was a problem they thought they would solve for her.

Now it doesn't matter to me.  Back then, if Wendi had fessed up that she was not initially involved, but she knew that her parents and brother had done this, I would have some sympathy for her.  Today, however, I see her as no different from them.  She knows and has let it stand, AND she's gaining from it.  She's also killing Dan in her own way (see Ms. TV's comment below).  Throw the book at all three of them equally.

12 hours ago, Ms. TV said:

I am so angry at this story, it could not be more obvious that this was a set up, yet the entire family got away with it.  To deny the dead husband‘s parents access to the grandchildren plus to change the boys’ names back to their mother’s maiden name is the epitome of adding insult to injury. 

+1 I don't care how nasty that divorce was.  There is no evidence that Dan Markel was abusive or harmful to Wendi or their children.  He did not deserve to be killed, to be erased from his children's lives, or to have his parents be denied access to children that are his while his in laws and ex had him KILLED, and they also get his kids.  It is not right on ANY level.

12 hours ago, Ms. TV said:

When the show first started and Dateline announced that they had been following the story since the beginning and would now update us, I was so excited to hear that at least the brother was going to jail if not the ex-wife and their parents...but NOTHING at all happened to any of them, which makes me so bitter and so sad. 

+1.  I thought, "Awesome!  They finally nailed the parents or the brother!"  Only THEN will there be justice for Dan Markel.

Did you notice the wording from one of the family attorneys?  It wasn't "They didn't do it."  It was "The evidence is not there."  Someone needs to keep digging and find some evidence against that wretched family.

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I skipped to the end of the Dan Markel episode, cuz I knew it was still gonna disappoint. I don't see how those smug bastards can sleep at night. I guess they are wealthy and priviledged in a way that makes them think of other people as "problems" that can be disposed of.

Wendi might not have known they were going to go through with it, but she knew after the fact, and let her boys be around murderers. This is shocking to me. Sadly, I'm sure the boys will grow up fully team Adelson cuz that is how they will be indoctrinated. I hope when they are older they seek out the truth. 

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