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All Episodes Talk: Crime And Punishment

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Friday nights repeat. I remember this case too well, it happened just a half hour down the road from me.

 

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I remember it well,  too.  It could have been me, I would follow anyone with an Irish Setter.

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Gary Hilton = Fry the bastard now.  He's been convicted of murder in three different states.  Florida needs to hurry up with that needle.

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I wondered how much DNA they pulled from that disgusting van, and if they’re testing it against any similar missing person reports. 

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This case seemed vaguely familiar, but it honestly wasn't until they played the 911 call of the guy offering to take the POS down that it all clicked and I remembered it. I'm surprised I didn't remember the dog!

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It seems like they almost caught up to him in time to save Meredith; that is the worst thing in these 3 heartbreaking cases.  If only there was a quicker way to flag ATM transactions for police.

 

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Saturday's rerun was creepy as hell, too.

For those bummed by the reruns, The First 48 is back on with new episodes. The cases are more about the detectives, their thought processes, and the laborious work they do before they can arrest someone, but the cases are fresh and many of the detectives are rather hot. 😄

 

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16 hours ago, TVbitch said:

For those bummed by the reruns, The First 48 is back on with new episodes. The cases are more about the detectives, their thought processes, and the laborious work they do before they can arrest someone, but the cases are fresh and many of the detectives are rather hot. 😄

 

You realize you’re shallow when the only part that piques your interest is the bolded part. Maybe it’s the insomnia speaking (as I type this at an ungodly hour of the morning).

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The Lisa Zeigert episode from tonight is the second story (that I'm aware of) that was once featured on "Unsolved Mysteries". 

It's truly amazing how many of these decades-old cases have been solved thanks to DNA evidence. I'd love to see the look on these bastards faces when the cops come to arrest them, having likely assumed that they'd gotten away with it.

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2 hours ago, Camille said:

The Lisa Zeigert episode from tonight is the second story (that I'm aware of) that was once featured on "Unsolved Mysteries". 

It's truly amazing how many of these decades-old cases have been solved thanks to DNA evidence. I'd love to see the look on these bastards faces when the cops come to arrest them, having likely assumed that they'd gotten away with it.

The annoying thing is, they had his name early on, and DNA from the crime scene. The police didn't pursue him because they thought it was a disgruntled ex trying to frame him. I really didn't understand why he was not pursued when they got the original tip from his ex's lawyer. He had no alibi for the time, came home "wild" and with scratches on his hands, liked to choke his ex when they were having sex, gave her a music box that he said was from the store where Lisa worked, which was a town over from where they lived at the time of the murder. He told her the clerk was a gray haired old lady, but when it was followed up on many years later it was found there was no such clerk. That could have been proven to have been a lie right away. All of this info was available to the police early on, and they chose not to pursue it because a friend of Gary's told the police that the ex was an alcoholic and had problems. 

I guess DNA could be credited with solving the case in that it was used to narrow the characteristics of the killer, which put Schara on their radar again. And was a way to finally get a warrant for his DNA which they were not able to get back when the murder happened. (Even though many others were eliminated by providing their DNA). 

I agree that the ex was a hero for giving the cops Gary's name, even if it did take them decades to finally get him. It is too bad she didn't live to see him go to prison. 

BTW, I thought the DA looked just like the phenotype sketch. 

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7 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

BTW, I thought the DA looked just like the phenotype sketch. 

 

3 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Yes !!!

Me three.  The minute the composite was shown I told my cat "Holy crapballs, the DA did it!!!" - which would have been ... awesome.   ;~)

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This was one of the draggiest two-hour Dateline episodes ever. Interesting nonetheless. Why didn’t they take DNA from his trash at any point?  Also makes me angry that the wife was dismissed as a hysteric, thereby delaying the case for decades. 

59 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

 

Me three.  The minute the composite was shown I told my cat "Holy crapballs, the DA did it!!!" - which would have been ... awesome.   ;~)

Yes especially because he would have been twelve, LOL. 

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On 9/21/2019 at 5:31 PM, ChristmasJones said:

Like others in this thread, I made some (in retrospect) very risky choices in college. Not a huge amount, but in each case, had a predatory person been interested in doing something bad to me, they would have been able to.

Yes to this post 100 X. If my kids even dare to imply victim responsibility, I  always respond, "There but for the grace of God, go I." One simple shortcut, bad decision, misplaced trust and I could have ended up as another missing/murdered person. I only ask that they try to always be aware of their surroundings. Bottom line though, no one 'deserves' to become a victim.

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"The Music Box" had an odd format. Usually these shows begin with a lengthy biography of the victim but this one went straight to the crime. I think the show is getting wise to us. Usually you can guess the perp within the first 10 minutes but the lack of background info about the victim and her relationships made it impossible to guess. Especially since the killer ended up being some rando. And they didn't even explain what the hell a music box had to do with anything until the very end.

And yet, the instant his photo was shown, you just knew it had to be him. Yikes. This guy had "demented murderer" written all over his unfortunate face. Some people just look evil.

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BTW, I thought the DA looked just like the phenotype sketch. 

Yep! LOL. Actually the sketch was just a generic white guy with dark hair but yeah, it could easily have been D.A. Galooney (or however that's spelled). It certainly looked more like him than the Gary Schara. 

I was fixated on Andrea Canning's big purple pendant necklace.

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39 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

"The Music Box" had an odd format. Usually these shows begin with a lengthy biography of the victim but this one went straight to the crime. I think the show is getting wise to us. Usually you can guess the perp within the first 10 minutes but the lack of background info about the victim and her relationships made it impossible to guess. Especially since the killer ended up being some rando. And they didn't even explain what the hell a music box had to do with anything until the very end.

And yet, the instant his photo was shown, you just knew it had to be him. Yikes. This guy had "demented murderer" written all over his unfortunate face. Some people just look evil.

Yep! LOL. Actually the sketch was just a generic white guy with dark hair but yeah, it could easily have been D.A. Galooney (or however that's spelled). It certainly looked more like him than the Gary Schara. 

I was fixated on Andrea Canning's big purple pendant necklace.

My husband said the show would definitively ID the killer at the one-hour mark, but we were fooled.  They left out the bio of the victim at the beginning because it seems there was really nothing much to say.  Poor girl, a victim of a perverted stalker.  A Criminal Minds crossover episode. 

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I hate when people say the victim can "finally be at peace" now cuz the killer has been caught. Um, she's dead. 

Andrea Canning was wearing nothing short of clown makeup when interviewing the original older dectective. Fuchsia lip and cheeks with heavy eye! 

OT: Has anyone watched "Don't Fuck With Cats: Hunting an Internet Killer" on Netflix. Jesus God, that was the most horrifying true crime I have ever watched. I almost couldn't finish it, it was so fucking gruesome and terrifying. But by then I needed closure. I did stop watching it at night! 

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1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I was fixated on Andrea Canning's big purple pendant necklace.

Her eyebrows were so glaring, then I noticed one of the investigators (black hair) looked like he had the same eyebrow artist.

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Regarding Dateline not giving away the murderer, I guessed it was Schara as soon as they talked about the ex's lawyer calling the police from across the country to say that the wife suspected her ex. When they went so far as to show a pic of the wife, and then say that a friend of Schara's said she was an alcoholic and had problems. The original cop just said that they followed it as far as they could but could not get a warrant for DNA. Given the details that we found out later that cops had right from the start (or could have if they had pursed him) it seemed like they dropped the ball. But I did  figure it was him early on.  Dateline does that quite often where they will throw in what seems to be a red herring but turns out to be the killer. I thought this episode was true to form. 

Edited by UsernameFatigue
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2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I was fixated on Andrea Canning's big purple pendant necklace.

Me, too, though maybe not for the same reason?  I actually covet a lot of the jewelry she wears (managing to overlook the wardrobe and makeup that go with it).  I spent about an hour trying to figure out what that stone was.  I'm a disappointment to myself, but I can't help it.  I'm a jewelry slut.

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15 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

All of this info was available to the police early on, and they chose not to pursue it because a friend of Gary's told the police that the ex was an alcoholic and had problems.

Heck yes.  They had all that handed to them in the beginning  and then  25 years later  they got a full written confession and now they act so proud of themselves for "solving the case."

This one just irritated me particularly when Andrea kept teasing that our  jaws would drop when we found out who did it.  You'd think it was going to be the sister not the same old  primary suspect -- who  I thought looked nothing like the DNA composite.

Also never assume that I'm not resting in peace because my murderer hasn't been brought to justice. 

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16 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

 

Also never assume that I'm not resting in peace because my murderer hasn't been brought to justice. 

And conversely, never assume that I am resting in peace just because my murderer has been brought to justice. I am still dead, and the POS may have had (as in this case) many years of freedom after taking my life away! 

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This "she's resting in peace" BS really pissed me off as well.  I find I hate it in general when people presume to speak for the dead.  You can tell us how something makes you feel, but please stop with that nonsense.  Your loss, tragic as it is, doesn't give you the right.

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6 hours ago, Chalby said:

One simple shortcut, bad decision, misplaced trust and I could have ended up as another missing/murdered person. I only ask that they try to always be aware of their surroundings. Bottom line though, no one 'deserves' to become a victim.

The For Want Of A Nail trope. A truly agonizing one. One of the most wrenching things I've noticed through my love of true crime is how the most mundane decisions have inadvertently cost someone their life--especially watching Unsolved Mysteries. A simple late night trip to the store/ATM/coffee shop, deciding to walk instead of getting a ride, and. . .

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1 hour ago, Camille said:

A simple late night trip to the store/ATM/coffee shop, deciding to walk instead of getting a ride, and. . .

going for a run in the park, making cookies for a Mother's Day gift and opening the door for a minute to let the smoke out, getting separated from your friends at the big Halloween party ...

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22 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

going for a run in the park, making cookies for a Mother's Day gift and opening the door for a minute to let the smoke out, getting separated from your friends at the big Halloween party ...

...being in the same vicinity as Pam ...

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I thought the young man pictures of Gary looked nothing like him 25 years later. He had a really pointed chin that seemed to go away. I also thought the DNA composite looked like the DA. 

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1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

I thought the young man pictures of Gary looked nothing like him 25 years later. He had a really pointed chin that seemed to go away.

He was very scary looking in the younger photos.

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6 hours ago, Camille said:

The For Want Of A Nail trope. A truly agonizing one. One of the most wrenching things I've noticed through my love of true crime is how the most mundane decisions have inadvertently cost someone their life--especially watching Unsolved Mysteries. A simple late night trip to the store/ATM/coffee shop, deciding to walk instead of getting a ride, and. . .

That always gets me too. Not only the mundane decisions, but the fact that there is a predator there at the time the person has made this mundane decision. 

Though it isn't always true (but is pretty much always said) many of the victims are either beautiful, charismatic or both. In addition many are very sweet and trusting. After years of watching true crime shows I figure I am safe - average looking, an introvert, not particularly sweet (other than to animals) and a pessimist. Has kept me alive for 62 years now and counting...

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17 hours ago, GussieK said:

Also makes me angry that the wife was dismissed as a hysteric, thereby delaying the case for decades. 

I know.  Based on what the friends of the accused husband said.  HIS friends?  It never occurred to them that maybe they weren't the best objective observers either?

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I didn’t know much about Andrew Cunanan and his cross-country killing spree, but those were some of the lamest cops on the planet. Had that one guy done his job and spotted Cunanan’s name on that pawn ticket, Versace might still be alive.

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I didn't have the heart to watch the Versace case again, but wow. those opening minutes, with Versace on the runway with the model,s reminded me of how stunning they all were.  Linda Evangelista!  My, my she sure put the super in super model. 

The killer would be sorry to know I've already forgotten his name.

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6 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

After years of watching true crime shows I figure I am safe - average looking, an introvert, not particularly sweet (other than to animals) and a pessimist. Has kept me alive for 62 years now and counting...

Same here!

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RE: Andrea's necklace:

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I spent about an hour trying to figure out what that stone was.

Plastic?

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I thought the young man pictures of Gary looked nothing like him 25 years later. He had a really pointed chin that seemed to go away.

I thought so too. But it looked like he was quite a bit heavier when they finally arrested him. That probably helped widen his face.

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23 hours ago, TVbitch said:

I hate when people say the victim can "finally be at peace" now cuz the killer has been caught. Um, she's dead. 

Andrea Canning was wearing nothing short of clown makeup when interviewing the original older dectective. Fuchsia lip and cheeks with heavy eye! 

OT: Has anyone watched "Don't Fuck With Cats: Hunting an Internet Killer" on Netflix. Jesus God, that was the most horrifying true crime I have ever watched. I almost couldn't finish it, it was so fucking gruesome and terrifying. But by then I needed closure. I did stop watching it at night! 

I watched that.  I was both mesmerized and horrified.

23 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

Her eyebrows were so glaring, then I noticed one of the investigators (black hair) looked like he had the same eyebrow artist.

I couldn't get past the eyebrows, either!

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I think aging thing is hard because you don't know how much weight they'll gain or how fast they'll grey or even if they break their nose...etc.  The young him did look similar to the sketch; although not as similar as the DA.

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Glad I'm not the only one ragging on Andrea this week! 

@iMonrey My dad collects rocks and the one that popped into my mind when I saw her necklace was rhodonite. It can be dark pink to purple.  

 

1 hour ago, Whimsy said:

I watched that.  I was both mesmerized and horrified.

@Whimsy do you know if there is a forum for it somewhere? I still can't get it out of my head. 

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On 1/11/2020 at 2:04 PM, Mondrianyone said:

Me, too, though maybe not for the same reason?  I actually covet a lot of the jewelry she wears (managing to overlook the wardrobe and makeup that go with it).  I spent about an hour trying to figure out what that stone was.  I'm a disappointment to myself, but I can't help it.  I'm a jewelry slut.

I thought the necklace was striking.

Unsolved Mysteries was routine viewing for me; I remembered this case as soon as I heard “card shop” in the beginning.  Good to know the case is solved.

Did some of the store photos have “Store Closing” signs in the window?  Did this tragedy end the store too?

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On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 1:44 PM, Whimsy said:

I watched that.  I was both mesmerized and horrified.

I couldn't get past the eyebrows, either!

They looked like the eyebrows Elaine drew on Uncle Leo. 

I had the sound off and when Lisa Ziegler's photo was shown I thought Dateline was going to do another episode on Rebecca Schaeffer and that beast that killed her.

I think Lisa and Rebecca looked amazingly similar.

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On 1/11/2020 at 11:52 PM, UsernameFatigue said:

That always gets me too. Not only the mundane decisions, but the fact that there is a predator there at the time the person has made this mundane decision. 

Though it isn't always true (but is pretty much always said) many of the victims are either beautiful, charismatic or both. In addition many are very sweet and trusting. After years of watching true crime shows I figure I am safe - average looking, an introvert, not particularly sweet (other than to animals) and a pessimist. Has kept me alive for 62 years now and counting...

Same. I don't light up rooms either so I guess I'm safe.

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Re: Annette Cahill

Annette: We had sex in the truck, on the truck, in the treehouse, at the bar, on the bar. We had sex 20 times a week.

Detective: I only asked if you knew Corey. 😕

I wonder if the hair and blood evidence were inadvertently disposed of. If not why not test them?  I don't think there was enough evidence to convict her. I think she will win her appeal.

The first courtroom looked like a school cafeteria. 

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13 minutes ago, druzy said:

Re: Annette Cahill

Annette: We had sex in the truck, on the truck, in the treehouse, at the bar, on the bar. We had sex 20 times a week.

Detective: I only asked if you knew Corey. 😕

 

I'm LMAO at this :D. Pretty much sums it up. 

All right, a story from my state of Iowa :/! Always so proud.

And good lord, could this whole thing have been any more of a stereotypical small town setup? Person A who knew person B who knew person C that was connected to the case, and everyone running into each other in the weirdest ways, and people having personal issues and being all up in each other's business... My god. 

Also, I've lived in many a small town, and I know that pickings can be awfully slim sometimes-hell, the town I live in is close to 30,000 people and there's not a lot in the way of options here for a single girl, either, But good lord, ladies, is this really the guy worth staking so much of your livelihoods on? Forget about whether or not him having all these women in his life made him good boyfriend or husband material, I wouldn't date him just 'cause the idea of having to compete with all those other women in his life sounds fucking exhausting. Way too much potential for drama and fights and, as we saw here, even worse. 

All of that being said, yeah, I don't know that they had that strong a case for Annette, either. I have no problem believing she could've done it-look at how immediately angry she got when talking to that detective (who, by the way, was cool as a cucumber throughout his entire interaction with her), and I believe the girl who had that weird memory from her childhood. I think she's telling the truth.

But I wouldn't make that or other potentially questionable witness testimony the main part of my case, no. I'd want to make sure I had more beyond that. I'm only a year younger than the woman with that childhood memory, and I kept trying to imagine myself being around that age throughout the episode, and wondering how I would've handled a memory like that. I can totally understand the concern about wanting to keep it secret. 

Add in the fact that this is such a small town, and there's so much opportunity for any discussion of this case to possibly influence and affect her memories of that night, and yeah, I can easily see where, even if you believe she's telling the truth, you'd be wary about how to include that as part of your case. 

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This is not a comment on whether the woman is guilty or innocent.  Was anyone else scratching their head as to what did the jury have to deliberate on?   Usually you see more info from a Dateline show.  
 

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The Black Candle Confession was a typical case of investigative malfeasance. They had the murder weapon, did they not test it for prints or DNA? When Keith asked one of the investigators whether a particular interrogation was recorded, he answered "No, it was 1992!" Like that took place in the 18th century or something. We didn't have no fancy recording devices back then!

The other thing that annoyed me is they took their good sweet time getting around to telling us whose house Jessie was sleeping over at. You know, the pertinent info, rather than a solid ten minutes of whether or not Jessie's memory was reliable. 

I agree Annette has a good chance at an appeal, especially since two juries came back deadlocked. It sort of seems like the second judge bullied them into reaching a verdict.

Not that it isn't clear as day she's guilty as sin. 

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35 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

When Keith asked one of the investigators whether a particular interrogation was recorded, he answered "No, it was 1992!" Like that took place in the 18th century or something. We didn't have no fancy recording devices back then!

LOL.  Even here in 21st century he didn't seem to grasp how television works.  He kept getting mad at Keith for asking him questions that he thought Keith should know the answer to, clearly not getting that  this interview was going out to viewers who maybe needed to have things spelled out for them and Keith was asking on their behalf.

Annette is surely a mystery.  Willing and eager to have sex anywhere, anytime, with an overweight jerk who was engaged to someone else. I guess he finally crossed her line of tolerance bringing his second pick-up along to save time during his busy sex schedule.  It's sad to think he fathered at least two unfortunate  children before he pushed one woman too far.  

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1 hour ago, Ellee said:

This is not a comment on whether the woman is guilty or innocent.  Was anyone else scratching their head as to what did the jury have to deliberate on?   Usually you see more info from a Dateline show.  
 

I thought the same thing - there had to be more info that what Dateline was reporting. Quite often in these cases where I am wondering how someone did or did not get convicted, I google the case and find out all kinds of info left out of the Dateline episode. In this case? I didn't find one thing. Nada. 

I did have many questions though. Wasn't Annette living with the niece (and her family)  who had Jessie there for a sleep over? Where was her own daughter who was a year older than Jessie? Did her kids live with their dad? Annette seemed to have a lot of time to get drunk and have sex frequently with a variety of men. Annette must have been pretty drunk to be crying and confessing to murder, knowing their were two 9 year kids upstairs who could hear her. Or did she forget they were there? 

Like others I am wondering why the evidence was not tested. I thought for sure when the first trial was a hung jury, that the prosecutors would test the hairs found in Corey's hand. Were they not still around? That didn't seem clear to me. 

In any case I don't think I could have convicted Annette based on the testimony of Jessie, with no other evidence at all. And if she was with the sis in law when she killed Corey, would there not have been blood all over the sis in law's car? Why would the sis in law go for years covering for Annette? Hard to keep secrets for years in a  small town where everyone knows everyone. Though I guess if it was someone other than Annette, that secret has been kept. So much just doesn't seem plausible to me, in any case. 

I also wondered about the 4th woman talked about,  who was having sex with Corey (after his live in fiance, Annette, and Wendy) She was supposedly was pregnant by Corey. Why would the grandparents not have had a relationship with that grandchild? Maybe it turned out that he wasn't the father? So many unanswered questions....

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The Black Candle case happened about an hour away from where I live, but I never saw it on the news, I guess because it was in another county. I right away googled Wink's, and that bar is still there. Its FB page featured pics of Keith outside, Keith with some woman (maybe who owns the bar now?) and a Dateline promo video.

I also googled Annette's trials so knew she got a mistrial first, then a conviction and up to 50 years. Note the "up to." She could get out in a few.

The ball bat was tested for prints and came back clean, no prints.

The SIL needed to be grilled more. All we got from here was, "Yeah, maybe I protected Annette too much." More details, please!

I guess back then those stores/Long John's didn't have security cameras, and if she paid cash at those places, no credit-card trail. So who knows if they really went shopping. Maybe they got some fish sticks after the murder.

Interesting the dialogue changed to they went to Corey's house but no answer at the door. Yeah, because you killed him.

Jesse's mom said some relative of Annette's was the police chief or sheriff or something, so to report to him what Jesse said she heard would be a waste, and dangerous. The trial part left that out, she said it to Keith. The trial ... her ex was sleeping with Annette. Wow, I hate to be judgemental, but Annette sounds like the Town Squeeze.

Say what you will about small towns, and at population 3,755 (2017), West Liberty is a small town, people in those towns are all up in everyone's business. When I moved five miles outside the 1,700 population town I live by, the first time I went into the post office the post master asked me if I was done painting my house. I had never seen him before, had never been in the post office before, did not tell him my name, had never spoken to anyone who lived in that town. So, consider that when pooh-poohing how small-town folk know everything.

I got a laugh from Annette's daughter saying her mom couldn't be a killer because she bakes and quilts. Right.

I also laughed at the giant Taco John's red cup on the desk behind witnesses in the trial that had to be held in some common room.

I wondered why the fiance's child was shut out from Corey's parents after some time. Seems it was okay when he/she was a baby, then it stopped. Unless the kid isn't suppose to know his/her real dad was murdered and the step dad is portrayed as being the real dad. Sounds like therapy on the horizon for that one.

And the other child courtesy of Wendy ... Maybe no mention to protect that child too. Although wouldn't those kids be more than 25 now? They could have watched Dateline last night.

I looked up to where Annette moved. Tipton, Iowa is 40 miles from me, 20 miles north of the murder scene. I don't think her occupation was ever mentioned. I can fill in that blank I guess.

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12 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

Say what you will about small towns, and at population 3,755 (2017), West Liberty is a small town, people in those towns are all up in everyone's business. When I moved five miles outside the 1,700 population town I live by, the first time I went into the post office the post master asked me if I was done painting my house. I had never seen him before, had never been in the post office before, did not tell him my name, had never spoken to anyone who lived in that town. So, consider that when pooh-poohing how small-town folk know everything.

Haha, oh, wow. Yeah, that sounds about right. 

I loved how they kept mentioning that so many people connected to this case either remained in the town or moved just a short distance from there. That's pretty accurate, too-people here don't often tend to move that far away, if they move at all, and those that do manage to move away from the state entirely usually wind up coming back eventually (like my family did). Like a boomerang effect, or something. 

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I got a laugh from Annette's daughter saying her mom couldn't be a killer because she bakes and quilts. Right.

LOL, this! One minute she's this sweet lady who bakes and makes things, the next, she's talking about having sex all over town with this guy (and having angry sex at one point, no less), and getting so drunk she can barely remember anything that happened the night he had that other woman with him. Annette's a very complex person, apparently :p. 

Edited by Annber03
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