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I could go either way on whether it was the ex-husband or the last client she saw. It's odd that the killer cut all the phones and took the appointment book. On the one hand it could indicate a client who wanted to erase their tie to the victim, but the phones?? It could also be someone who wanted to make it look like that.

One thing I'm confident in saying is that the children could in no way be objective about this. The fact that more than one person said Bonnie told them she feared her ex-husband, and that if anything happened to her it was him, is really the most compelling evidence to me. I wonder if the verdict would have been different if the jury were allowed to hear that.

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22 hours ago, metalchik said:

"Pamela Hupp will spend the rest of her life in prison, rather than continue fighting 2½-year-old murder charges."  Yeehaw!  Would have loved to hear what type of defense she'd put up though. 

Too bad she didn't also plead for Betsy Faria's murder, or her own mother's.   Can't wait for the Dateline update on this; was it a Keith case or Josh?

Edited by Janc
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On 6/18/2019 at 9:45 AM, Ohmo said:

In the Zimmerman case, there wasn't enough there for me to convict, along with there being the possibility of it could being someone other than the ex.  Given his assets, I find the $4,000 to be an unusual (if unlikely) motive.  Her last client would also give me pause.

If I were on the jury, I would have had no problem in convicting the ex. He obviously was not happy about the $4,000 given that according to the letter written on Oct 22/14 (less that two weeks before his ex was murdered) she had been trying to get money from him for the expenses since July of 2013. This was her fourth attempt, so obviously he was not happy about paying his half, even if it was in the divorce agreement. It is a small amount considering three kids are involved, but he obviously had a problem with it since he hadn't paid and still wasn't. 

I also found his lawyers assertion that it was silly that he wanted to retire but couldn't, a stretch. I don't think $95,000 K is a huge salary (especially with three kids to pay for), and 240K or so in retirement funds is hardly enough for someone to retire on, even with a pension. 

Add in the gun power residue in the car, the fact that he would not let his home or car be searched without a warrant, the fact that he lied to police, wasn't at home when his girlfriend showed up for their date, didn't divulge that or the fact that he had a second girlfriend he saw later in the evening, his car GPS showed that he was at/near his ex's office, I think he is guilty. Not to mention the eye witness, who I felt sorry for because she had no idea when she saw him that the details of what she saw would be so important down the line. 

The kids are delusional, but that is not uncommon. I feel sorry for Pam's brother and sister, knowing her killer will never serve a day in jail. And not to speak ill of the dead, but I am always surprised when someone moves so quickly with a new boyfriend. Her kids met this guy for the 3rd time at their mother's engagement party? Yikes. 

Edited by UsernameFatigue
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Just looked for more info on Dateline's Facebook site, and as usual lots of info was left out of the episode. 

When Kirk and Pam separated, they were worth about $500,000. When Pam died, Kirk was worth about $109,000 (not the amount his lawyer claimed). He had been very bitter about how much he was paying, and his monthly expenses exceed his monthly income by $2800 per month. This from a forensic audit done and presented at the trial. Also apparently Pam never went after half of his pension in the divorce as she knew how angry it would make him. I wonder what the split was as far as the jury goes? In any case it appears that the $4000 was a lot for a man who's expenses totaled over $33,000 a year more than his income. 

Edited by UsernameFatigue
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I may wind up being in the minority, but my memories from age 3 onward are very vivid. For her son to now in adulthood not remember anything he told police and the counselor seems odd. Or, maybe not everyone has the memories of childhood like I do. 

And, wondering why police didn’t stay after the husband from the get-go.

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23 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

I may wind up being in the minority, but my memories from age 3 onward are very vivid. For her son to now in adulthood not remember anything he told police and the counselor seems odd. Or, maybe not everyone has the memories of childhood like I do. 

Given how traumatic this incident was for Aaron, I'm thinking it's more that as he got older he just kinda started repressing those memories, both because it was obviously too painful and because, once he got settled into his new home and life, despite the fact that he would go and look for her on occasion, after a time, he may have just wanted to move on and put it all in the back of his mind.

Bless that detective and the couple who adopted Aaron. I'm so glad he was ultimately able to have such supportive, helpful, caring figures in his life, and that he managed to go on and live a good life in general. What a surreal moment, finding his mom's body. I found the defense's argument that somebody else killed her and then buried the body in the backyard weird-I could buy the idea that somebody would try and pin it on her husband in and of itself, but are people who murder a woman really going to take her back to her house and bury her in the backyard, where people might be able to see them? I suppose there might be some criminal out there dumb enough to do that-lord knows we've seen a few idiot criminals over the years on these kinds of shows-but that just seems like a really weird way to do things. 

I'm also struck by the fact that her parents think her husband's innocent while his own family thinks he's guilty. There's something you don't often see on these shows!

Edited by Annber03
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1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

I'm also struck by the fact that her parents think her husband's innocent while his own family thinks he's guilty. There's something you don't often see on these shows!

YES!! I forgot to mention that, thank you! It was sort of mentioned as an afterthought, but I thought BOY, that’s a biggie! He definitely picked up the Carolina accent during his time living here.

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I believe the husband did it.  The fact Bonnie's mother (and father) thinks he is innocent is the interesting part.  They are obviously the type of people that don't like to admit they are wrong about someone. They invited their son-in-law into their family.  To admit he killed their daughter would mean they had not seen it and warned her.   

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9 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

YES!! I forgot to mention that, thank you! It was sort of mentioned as an afterthought, but I thought BOY, that’s a biggie! He definitely picked up the Carolina accent during his time living here.

Definitely!  I'm looking at her mother and thinking "Huh?"  She was found in her backyard, Mike's shoe prints were found, and the car was found at the airport.  This was a young mother with a job that didn't require travel.  Mike totally did it.  Now, THIS is a verdict that I could have done in no time flat.

Aaron's adopted mother was lovely, and I have to also give props to his aunt who loved him enough and had the tremendous foresight to be willing to separate Aaron from his biological relatives for his own well-being.

Quote

I may wind up being in the minority, but my memories from age 3 onward are very vivid. For her son to now in adulthood not remember anything he told police and the counselor seems odd. Or, maybe not everyone has the memories of childhood like I do. 

My family always comments on my good memory, but I have to say, my earliest memories start at about 4-5 years old.  Age 3 was a bit early for me.

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12 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I'm also struck by the fact that her parents think her husband's innocent while his own family thinks he's guilty. There's something you don't often see on these shows!

I found it weird when the mom was asked what she missed with her daughter being gone, the mom said grandchildren.  You would think she would say something loving about her daughter.   

I just got the feeling that the mom didn’t like her daughter.  Maybe that’s why her daughter got married at 18.   Also, she just appeared to like her SIL more that her own blood.   Something not right there.  

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On 6/11/2019 at 4:33 PM, saber5055 said:

Or how about hiring police and training police to actually PROTECT the people they are hired to protect, and teach them/train them to do their frigging jobs.

Decades ago, I went to a large, well-known state university that has its own police force, and I was struck about the similarities between then and now.  Back then, we regarded the campus police force like we did the university health center---as in not good for much beyond traffic tickets (police) or aspirin (health center).  Seems like the University of Utah had a similar philosophy.

I felt sorry for Lauren's parents in that they mistakenly believed that the University would protect their kid.  The reality, however, is that universities that large rarely think that way, and I think parents are kidding themselves with a false sense of security.  It doesn't really exist from the school's standpoint, either back then or now apparently.   More often, true security on large campuses comes from students themselves and their friend groups.

The other thought I had was if that would have been me, my parents would have been on a plane to come get me, and I likely would have been withdrawn from that school, either temporarily or permanently.

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On 6/12/2019 at 4:11 AM, cooksdelight said:

I was surprised the guy was able to walk into the dorm.

When I was in college (granted, a long while ago) you had to come in the front door of the dorm, the other doors were locked and you could only go out, not in. There was always someone at the desk, in the common area studying or watching TV. There was one dorm that was more like apartments, and it was co-ed. All the other dorms were either all girls or all guys. 

I hope the parents sue their asses off as well. And it sucks to be that lady in charge of the whole mess.

Sadly, I was not that surprised.  I also went to collage a long time ago, and we had the same type of "security" that you mentioned, but people always could get around it if they really wanted to.   Every ID was not always meticulously checked, if you know what I mean, and Lauren's ex had been practically living in the dorm at one time.  I saw plenty of significant others (including my roommate's) just get waved on in since "security" figured they were often there.

Edited by Ohmo
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Last night's episode about Aaron's dad killing his mother illustrated how difficult solving crimes was then compared to now. Now there are CC cameras everywhere and GPS trackers and cell-phone towers to ping. I wondered how the dad got back from the airport after leaving the car there (with dirty footprints in it from the dirt he dug up to bury mom), and why he would put $1,000 in her purse before chucking it in a dumpster. (Unless she already had that cash because she was ready to bail, and he didn't look.)

And why chuck the purse at all, why not bury that too, so it looked like she really did fly away. And she could have flown under a fake name back then, if memory serves. If he walked home from the airport, where was Aaron? This show always leaves questions unanswered.

Didn't the detective say they searched Aaron's house for blood/evidence of a murder? And used that stuff that makes invisible blood show up? Luminol? And they did not find anything?

I wonder who sent that typed note telling police to search the back yard with a dog. Maybe cadaver dogs/SAR dogs weren't in use then? I guess they didn't look again because they had already looked before.

Who has a shower in their back yard? Maybe that's a Florida thing. The shower must have been built after the mom was buried. Was there a shower floor? The photos weren't clear to me. Odd neighbors didn't see, I doubt the privacy fence was 20 years old, but maybe. It's possible.

Today, too, Aaron's interviews would have been recorded. But since mom was buried in the back yard and he supposedly helped, or thought he did ... well, that's another unanswered question.

I can remember only one thing about my dad, who died when I was six, and a couple things after that. But basically, my childhood has no memories. Plus I can see Aaron "forgetting" as he got older. And good on him for being honest about that.

I wondered if Aaron's dad ever wanted to see him or tried to see him or fought the adoption/foster care. His aunt and the foster/adoptive family restored my faith that there are indeed good-hearted people in this world. Some days I seriously doubt it based on everything I read and hear. And see.

In all, it was a good episode that kept my attention. I hope Aaron continues to prosper. He is a special person and I wish him well.

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Most universities today use electronic keys/student IDs to enter the dorms.  If Lauren’s ex was there often, I could see someone letting him in, because they thought he belonged there.   

I didn't understand why her parents did not fly out.   They were all pretty naive.   

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9 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

Didn't the detective say they searched Aaron's house for blood/evidence of a murder? And used that stuff that makes invisible blood show up? Luminol? And they did not find anything?

You make a good point.  If the husband did shoot her, there would be a messy crime scene.   You would think there would be some blood evidence.  

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2 minutes ago, LGGirl said:

Most universities today use electronic keys/student IDs to enter the dorms.  If Lauren’s ex was there often, I could see someone letting him in, because they thought he belonged there.   

I didn't understand why her parents did not fly out.   They were all pretty naive.   

Dorm security (at least back when I was in college) is also mostly handled by other students, particularly at night.  Some of ours were RAs, but a lot of them weren't.  I can remember some people in my dorm (but not on my floor) buying breadsticks and sauce (this was way before the days of Grubhub) for the "security" staff so that a boyfriend, cousin, etc. could enter the dorm without signing in.  Sometimes, the breadsticks trick worked.  Let's be honest.  College students don't always make terrific decisions.

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44 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Sadly, I was not that surprised.  I also went to collage a long time ago, and we had the same type of "security" that you mentioned, but people always could get around it if they really wanted to. 

Back when I was in college, there wasn't cyber stalking or any stalking really. Computers and SM didn't exist and security was lax. Actually, we had no security, it wasn't needed, and we never had any problems with anything. (Well, except when art thieves pretended to be students and stole a Picasso from the art museum when we were having one of our regular lecture classes in its auditorium.) If university officials and security police are from that era, they are out of touch with today's reality.

They all need to step it up and get with the program. So do parents.

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5 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Who has a shower in their back yard? Maybe that's a Florida thing.

Showering off from being at the beach, or a chlorinated pool, before coming in to change? Maybe? 

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Yeah outdoor showers aren’t that unusual in warm places with pools or at the beach. Typically you don’t use them to take a full shower ie get naked you just use it to rinse off from the pool or beach. They often just have cold water so you aren’t staying under it very long. 

So did they never look in the backyard at all, it would seem weird not to notice fresh earth. 

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28 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Typically you don’t use them to take a full shower ie get naked you just use it to rinse off from the pool or beach.

We used a backyard hose for that. LOL! I wondered if the shower had a floor like a wooden pallet or sheet of melamine floor that was pulled over the dug grave. But yeah, it's strange no loose earth seen around that area. I couldn't tell from the photo shown what was the shower and what wasn't. I would imagine an outdoor shower to be cement with a drain. Maybe she was buried, then cement poured over the top, which is why the backhoe excavator was needed to tear it out. Just speculating.

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Surprising that guy didn't also kill the boy. If he "loved" him too much to kill him, then why did he let him live with her family and then foster care when he was not even charged with a crime. Does a civil verdict affect family court matters?   

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I am unclear as to why Aaron’s Dad did not have custody of Aaron.  He hadn’t been charged and the civil suit wasn't until his teens. So why was he living with an aunt, having visitation with his Dad twice weekly? Then the aunt put him in Foster care which somehow caused the visitation to cease?  Did the courts somehow take a 3 year olds  accusations against his Dad aa a reason to keep them apart?  In hindsight. Probably a good thing- but it’s just surprising that the dad didn’t fight it. But then, he probably didn’t want any more legal attention. 

I don’t understand why the police didn’t search the back yard the day she was reported missing, when the dirt would have been loose: They searched the house. 

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It was stated that they did look in the backyard but they didn’t “see anything”. I wish there had been more detail about the nature of that search. They apparently didn’t probe the soil looking for soft/newly dug spots. 

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If a child says “Daddy shot mommy with a gun. She had blood all over her” I’d sure as hell get that kid out of the house.

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On 6/22/2019 at 6:24 PM, biakbiak said:

Yeah outdoor showers aren’t that unusual in warm places with pools or at the beach. Typically you don’t use them to take a full shower ie get naked you just use it to rinse off from the pool or beach. They often just have cold water so you aren’t staying under it very long. 

So did they never look in the backyard at all, it would seem weird not to notice fresh earth. 

You do if you're my father-in-law at his Cape Cod house.  He showers outside every morning lol.

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I had last night's episode on (it was a new one, amazing!) but wasn't playing attention until it was half over and I heard "German Village." So I looked and it was Columbus, Ohio, a serial killer? Holy cow, I lived five years in Columbus when I went to college there, and spent a lot of time in German Village. I lived just a few blocks from there.

Okay, so that was a few years ago, but still. One of those victims could have been me.

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Last night's episode was all about my neck of the woods.  Now, the exceptionally smart people in this thread can probably guess that the large university that I was talking about a few posts ago was this one.  However, 15 minutes in, I turned the episode off.  Reagan's case has gotten A TON of press here, and I already knew how things would turn out.

I LOVED my time at OSU, but even when I went, campus was not the safest area at night.  It's gotten better, but it's still not fabulous, and the University still warns people to this day to stay in groups when you're around campus at night.  Local reports here said that one of the bartenders at Reagan's restaurant often walked female co-workers to their cars after night shifts, but she declined that night.

Right now, the bill that Reagan's parents are supporting is tied up in the Statehouse.  Lawmakers are trying to decide what to do because Ohio doesn't have the funding to employ enough people to monitor people like Brian Goldsby.  There's also been plenty of discussion as to how/why he was released in the first place.

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Reagan Tokes is also not the first female OSU student in recent memory to be killed  or abducted at night from the campus area.  I remember this case, as I was attending OSU at the time. 

Student’s killer takes plea deal

Pearl Alley is not somewhere that a women should be if it's late at nigh, and she's alone

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I must assume Reagan's parents were staunch Republicans and supporters of Ronald Reagan. Why else name your child after the little girl possessed by the devil in "The Exorcist?" 

Also, one of Reagan's college roommates had an irritating case of vocal fry.

I expected to see the usual venom aimed at Andrea Canning. Why does everyone hate her so much anyway? She doesn't do anything Keith Morrison or Dennis Murphy don't do, and her narration is far less affected and melodramatic than Morrison's. I find her perfectly innocuous. 

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As a viewer of The Good Wife and White Collar, I was stunned (and depressed) to learn that an ankle monitor is nothing more than a minor inconvenience when putting on pants and socks before going out to commit a crime.

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I've never had any issue with Andrea Canning but I was annoyed that she used the word "literally" two or three times. It's a pet peeve.

And yes, the vocal fry on one of the friends was grating as hell. Sorry, I know that's petty but it was bad.

I had never heard of this case but I'm with the parents and their outrage. The ball was dropped with Goldsby.

Edited by ridethemaverick
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3 hours ago, saber5055 said:

looked and it was Columbus, Ohio, a serial killer?

I believe Reagan was his only murder.

I would be interested to know how many people were on monitored release in the area where his attacks occurred. I do understand that real time monitoring might not be feasible but after they established a pattern of the attacks you think they could have pulled records of people with similar crimes and searched their whereabouts at the times of the attack much earlier but it’s possible I watch too many scripted crime shows and the technology doesn’t exist for that to be as simple as it seems.

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I noticed the vocal fry too, it was extreme. 

@iMonrey anytime I post about my disdain for Andrea Canning, I try to give specific examples of what she did that episode to totally annoy me. Often it is that she tries to insert herself into the story, other times it's stupid questions, sometimes it is her unfortunate vocal inflections, etc. Last night, while there was nothing egregious enough for me to take special note of, I was put off by her reaction shots, particularly her "I look like I'm going to cry to show empathy" face and her "I am super bubbly because we are talking about how the victim was so great" face. I agree sometimes Keith takes it over the top. Josh might be my favorite. I like Denis too. They are both just matter of fact story tellers, but they give great stone-face and eyebrow raise to lying killers. 

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1 minute ago, TVbitch said:

I noticed the vocal fry too, it was extreme. 

This is the second forum that I post in on this site that has mentioned vocal fry.  I finally had to Google it because I had never heard of it before.  I listened to some examples.  It's difficult to make out.  At least it was for me.

Andrea Canning doesn't bother me.  I've always liked how she mentions that her husband is in the military. I always hope that he's OK for her sake if he happens to be deployed.

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7 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I do understand that real time monitoring might not be feasible but after they established a pattern of the attacks you think they could have pulled records of people with similar crimes and searched their whereabouts at the times of the attack much earlier but it’s possible I watch too many scripted crime shows and the technology doesn’t exist for that to be as simple as it seems.

I was wondering if they could have entered the locations of the attacks into the GPS monitoriing system, and then see who had been in any/all of those locations.  So searching by location first rather than by offender first.  But like you.. don't know if the system has that capacity. 

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I felt so bad after watching this last night.  I felt bad for the young murdered girl who had her whole life ahead of her and I felt bad for her parents.   The killer was a real soulless scumbag.  It gave me a chill when he described how the phony other person killed the girl.  Are we to assume because she was nude, that the guy also raped her?  

And personally, I think all this "girl power" shit, and TV shows and movies portraying 105 lb women kicking the shit out of bad guys weighing 250 lbs has given many young women the impression that they will be able to defend themselves if attacked by somebody.  And unless you are a trained martial artist going up against somebody who isn't, the chances are that most men will be able to pound most women into the payment if they want to.   I also think youth's mind set that nothing bad will ever happen to them is also a factor.  

And on the subject of "vocal fry", listen to NPR nowadays.  From going to the melodic voice of Susan Stamberg, we now get these young females with voices that sound like nails on a chalkboard.  I don't get it - it must be a generational thing - but man, I hate like hell to listen to it.  

Edited by 12catcrazy · Reason: typo
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And on the subject of "vocal fry", listen to NPR nowadays.  From going to the melodic voice of Susan Stamberg, we now get these young females with voices that sound like nails on a chalkboard.  I don't get it - it must be a generational thing - but man, I hate like hell to listen to it. 

Once you learn about it you can't un-hear it. I don't know that it's generational, but I think it's far more common in women. I think for a lot of women their voice just naturally drops into their throat - not because they are deliberately doing it for effect (although some do) but because they aren't aware they're doing it and/or don't realize how it sounds or that anyone finds it irritating. It's simply a case of not putting enough energy into your voice and letting it drop into a croak.

I do think it's a double standard though because when men do it nobody complains.  Bradley Cooper talks that way all the time and nobody has ever accused him of having vocal fry.

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10 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

Are we to assume because she was nude, that the guy also raped her?  

He did.  He was convicted on charges of kidnapping, rape, robbery, and murder.

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On 6/25/2019 at 8:48 PM, TVbitch said:

Josh might be my favorite.

JMO I really, really dislike him. Really.

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On 6/25/2019 at 9:32 AM, Whimsy said:

you do if you're my father-in-law at his Cape Cod house.  He showers outside every morning lol.

Please tell me it's enclosed ?

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5 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Please tell me it's enclosed ?

Lololol. Yes. 

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I hope they win every penny.

image.png

Edited by car54
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I just shared this on Facebook, it infuriates me. I am a volunteer court advocate with our local group who helps abused women and if that girl had just one person in authority taking her claims seriously, she’d be alive.

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7 hours ago, car54 said:

I hope they win every penny.

Thanks for posting that. I am so glad the family is suing the U. I wonder if the Dateline story had anything to do with their decision. I hope so. The only thing that would make me happier is if they took the U for every penny it has, and all the people involved lost their jobs. And got no severance, just a YOU'RE FIRED, and all of them kicked to the curb.

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I like Josh, too.  He's a little rumpled, and I'm a fan when he lets someone that he's interviewing know that he thinks what is being said is BS.

Speaking of the University of Utah, I have a feeling that Mackenzie Lueck's case will not end well and will eventually end up on Dateline.

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18 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I like Josh, too.  He's a little rumpled, and I'm a fan when he lets someone that he's interviewing know that he thinks what is being said is BS.

Speaking of the University of Utah, I have a feeling that Mackenzie Lueck's case will not end well and will eventually end up on Dateline.

Sad ending to the Lueck case.  Waiting for more details, but  I am sure we will see it on Dateline.

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-mackenzie-lueck-missing-utah-20190628-story.html

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