Jump to content
Forums forums
PRIMETIMER
Dougal

All Episodes Talk: Crime And Punishment

Recommended Posts

Yikes! She does look crazy! 

Speaking of which, the pigtailed woman in last night's episode even admitted everyone thought she was crazy. I'm embarrassed to admit that everything about her, her appearance, her signs, her refusal to quit, would have been enough for me to dismiss her as a kook. But she was right! I can't imagine what drove her to keep going. I really admire her for that. And by all accounts, her son was a really nice person. I'm glad she never gave up. 

  • Like 12

Share this post


Link to post

Re: Secrets in Lake Seminole

I may have missed it but what concrete evidence was presented in court that Denise played a role in Mike’s murder? I was waiting for them to reveal something irrefutable but nothing came. All the life insurance, marrying his best friend stuff is still pretty flimsy evidence. And Brian(?) had a good reason to point the finger elsewhere. 

  • Like 1
  • Useful 1
  • Surprise 1

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Speaking of which, the pigtailed woman in last night's episode even admitted everyone thought she was crazy. I'm embarrassed to admit that everything about her, her appearance, her signs, her refusal to quit, would have been enough for me to dismiss her as a kook. But she was right! I can't imagine what drove her to keep going. I really admire her for that. And by all accounts, her son was a really nice person. I'm glad she never gave up. 

She was a daycare provider so people entrusted her with their children despite her kooky appearance.

I'm an early childhood teacher so I noticed she used sheets from her chart tablet and her yardstick to construct her signs. Both of these being common teacher supplies. And did the former student say that the charges somehow helped create the signs?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Quote

Also I laughed at Brian claiming that Denise didn't want a divorce because she was so religious, and didn't want the stigma of divorce. Sure, that is why they put the waders in the lake, to make sure he would be declared dead to free up the insurance money. Because of religion. God had nothing to do with it. 

Why is it all these spousal murderers turn out to be churchy people? I just can't wrap my head around someone whose belief system prevents them from getting a divorce yet they think murder is a viable option. 

Quote

She was a daycare provider so people entrusted her with their children despite her kooky appearance.

Maybe that's why she wears pigtails, but honestly. If you don't want people to think you are crazy, maybe don't wear pigtails when you're 80 and barely have any hair left.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
40 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Why is it all these spousal murderers turn out to be churchy people? I just can't wrap my head around someone whose belief system prevents them from getting a divorce yet they think murder is a viable option. 

I just left a church because the pastor picked and chose who to support in times of crisis. He didn’t want to piss off certain families in the church. I can read my Bible at home and pray at home and not have to deal with him.

It always amazes me when religious people, pastors, deacons, etc., totally think the 10 Commandments don’t apply to them.

  • Like 9
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post

I watched that re-run too, Cook's. Will never fathom how these people can do such heinous bloody things and then go on about living their lives. Stephanie went on to a happy relationship after all that. Did she perhaps even then think, "Oh, hey, it seems I was able to move on from my ex! It all worked out! ....hmm, maybe I really didn't need to murder that woman." 

As for Denise, bitch thinks God should forgive them for murdering her husband, but when husband #2 pulled his suicide stunt with the gun in her car, she insisted the judge PUT HIM AWAY FOR LIFE!!!! OR SHE WOULD NEVER FEEL SAFE!!!! ...poor dear. Jesus God. 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post

March 1 episode: So that murderer will be out in eight years? He knew there was no way they could find his victim’s body when he made the deal. If she were my sister, I would rather him rot in prison for the rest of his life than agree to a deal like that.

  • Like 10
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post

I apologize if this is old news, but it is new to me.  It’s regarding Charlie Tan, who was charged with killing his father, and after his jury was deadlocked, the judge dismissed all charges.  I felt like Charlie killed his Dad on advice of his mom. Dateline covered both cases.

Updates:

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/charlie-tan-trial 

https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/local-news/murder-charges-in-charlie-tan-trial-dismissed/262791689 

I felt he was guilty of murder, so 20 years is pretty light.

  • Like 2
  • Surprise 1

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

March 1 episode: So that murderer will be out in eight years? He knew there was no way they could find his victim’s body when he made the deal. If she were my sister, I would rather him rot in prison for the rest of his life than agree to a deal like that.

Was it the boyfriend? I fell asleep....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, cooksdelight said:

Was it the boyfriend? I fell asleep..

Yup. I fell asleep too, but just finished watching it. He choked her in her own basement and then put her in a garbage bag and threw her out the one window that did not have camera coverage. Just horrible. Scary to think he can be out in 8 years after all that.

Hopefully they can bring charges against him for the death of his first wife, Marta, who also “disappeared”.  The  pieces were only put together by the detective who investigated Pam’s murder. Not sure why the previous detectives hadn’t taken a closer look at the boyfriend.

  • Like 6
  • Surprise 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks @ButterQueen, I remember everyone cheering for the son in that one, but I always thought it was outrageous that he just got away with murder.

As for last nights epi, that was a crazy light sentence. And at that point they already even knew he had killed his first wife and assaulted another. And they didn't even get the body back for it! I've actually told my brother, "If I am murdered, please do not spend years of your lives worrying about bringing my dead body "home" or cut my killer a deal to get it."

  • Like 18
  • Surprise 1

Share this post


Link to post

Oh that poor brother who was accused, man, that was a good one, I knew that boyfriend did it....12 years for killing two women....okay, something needs to be done and justice needs to be served with this guy. He can not be allowed on the streets. That was a heartbreaker of an episode and a good one. Forget about getting her body back, which they never did, that guy should have served life in prison. 

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post

While 12 years isn’t very long they didn’t have a lot of evidence to bring the case to trial. Most of the understanding of the case came from him after they gave him the offer so it’s better than nothing. 

Share this post


Link to post

If I am murdered dont give any bastard a deal just to get my body back. I know some people need that but no. It makes me sick to see them get a deal for that

  • Like 14
  • Laugh 1

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, ari333 said:

If I am murdered dont give any bastard a deal just to get my body back. I know some people need that but no. It makes me sick to see them get a deal for that

But it wasn’t just for the body. They had a very weak case to present to the jury so there is a good chance he would not have been convicted.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
22 hours ago, biakbiak said:

While 12 years isn’t very long they didn’t have a lot of evidence to bring the case to trial. Most of the understanding of the case came from him after they gave him the offer so it’s better than nothing. 

I think I missed that. I saw her got 8 years for Pamela but, I didn't see anything about Marta.

I don't know if Dateline picked those photos deliberately or if he always looked like that in photos but, holy crap he had some Crazy Eyes going on in those photos

Edited by Morrigan2575
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

didn't see anything about Marta.

He hasn’t been charged with anything related to Marta which again the evidence presented on the show for her death was fairly light so apparently prosecutors don’t think they have enough to charge at this point.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, biakbiak said:

He hasn’t been charged with anything related to Marta which again the evidence presented on the show for her death was fairly light so apparently prosecutors don’t think they have enough to charge at this point.

Apologies I quoted the wrong post. I quoted your reply but, I meant to quote the other one that said he got 12 years for 2 murders.  I thought they meant 8+4 or 12 for Marta to run concurrently with Pamela.

I hope they do get him for Marta (eventually) and he gets a longer sentence. 8 years is just way too low for murder even in the 2nd degree. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
On 3/2/2019 at 12:44 PM, ButterQueen said:

I apologize if this is old news, but it is new to me.  It’s regarding Charlie Tan, who was charged with killing his father, and after his jury was deadlocked, the judge dismissed all charges.  I felt like Charlie killed his Dad on advice of his mom. Dateline covered both cases.

Updates:

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/charlie-tan-trial 

https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/local-news/murder-charges-in-charlie-tan-trial-dismissed/262791689 

I felt he was guilty of murder, so 20 years is pretty light.

Yeah...don't even get me started on Charlie.  I live in Roc and this has been news here, obviously.  He got effed, to put it bluntly, because our illustrious DA office botched a nunber of cases in recent years by failing to get convictions, (Craig Rideout trial, Genesee St shooting, Juge Astacio)  so they went after Charlie in any way they could, cuz he was the big name one that got away, which was the gun charge.  There is a whole lotta shit to this story, and imo Charlie got royally screwed.  His buddy, who actually KNOWINGLY purchased the gun for him...what happend to him you ask?  NOTHING.  He got immunity.  Do you all remember the Christmas Eve shooting here a few years back where fireman were ambushed and killed?  Well the girl Dawn who purchased gun for shooter years before, who had no idea what she did got years in jail for it, but Charlies buddy got nothing, cuz they wanted Charlie so bad in any way that they let the guy who knowingly bought the gun get away with it.  Oh, and they basically tried him for the murder during this case.  The prosecutor made no bones about doing it either, which I dont quite understand how they could do that at this trial but they did.  Charlie was coming to Roc from Canada and they basically ambushed him at border and he sat in jail for years before they even tried him.  This case angers me more than any.  Especially because I personally think that he didnt do it, his mom did.

It is quite the rabbit hole if anyone wants to go down it.  There was a really good article in local paper when he got sentenced.....I will see if I can find it and add link.

  • Like 3
  • Useful 2

Share this post


Link to post

On the 3/8 episode, did I miss when it said why they wanted her dead. Jesus God, this dude destroyed every woman he came in contact with. 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, TVbitch said:

Jesus God, this dude destroyed every woman he came in contact with. 

I felt so bad for that Vanessa. She shouldn't be in jail for her drug problems, she should be getting some help for them instead, as well as some therapy for all the awful stuff she described dealing with while seeing this creep. 

I get wanting to believe your friend couldn't have done something like this, but when a fiancee goes missing, another is telling horror stories about her relationship with him, and then a third woman is talking about how he'd tried to get her to kill his fiancee for him...I mean, where there's smoke, and all that. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, TVbitch said:

On the 3/8 episode, did I miss when it said why they wanted her dead. Jesus God, this dude destroyed every woman he came in contact with. 

Custody of the daughter. 

I'm irritated that the girlfriend got off so lightly.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post

I just watched Devil's Bathtub. It was shocking but ultimately really unsatisfying because I feel there must have been so many more layers to the story that we never got. Why would a well off mother of 7 children suddenly decide to divorce her husband and then kill him over custody? What happened to her new boyfriends first wife? Is he really innocent? Why on earth would her son help in the murder? We're just left with giant question marks.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Why on earth would her son help in the murder?

Seriously!  In most children's minds the father would have been the good parent who hadn't had an affair.  For that matter, why would the mother want to have an affair with that unattractive man?

What sort of airhead tries to flirt with the police by saying, "If I had been expecting you I would have worn my make-up!"  Then she goes upstairs in her jeans to get shoes and comes down in spike heels.  Flirty and vain the day after the brutal murder of her ex-husband.  I guess I've answered my own question, a woman like that could not have been a good parent, the boy was raised by her and probably told every day of his life that it was his job on earth to take care of mommy and take sides with her because she was the one who loved him most.  Of, course she had seven kids.

  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post

And that footage of her right before the murder at Walmart, going off to buy Drano and duct tape, all relaxed and smiling. She seemed almost cartoonishly evil! 

I'm sure there's a great Movie of the Week in this story. 

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I just watched Devil's Bathtub. It was shocking but ultimately really unsatisfying because I feel there must have been so many more layers to the story that we never got. Why would a well off mother of 7 children suddenly decide to divorce her husband and then kill him over custody? What happened to her new boyfriends first wife? Is he really innocent? Why on earth would her son help in the murder? We're just left with giant question marks.

Right?! She did it & new bf killed his wife!!!

I understand divorce bc people fall out of love. The murder is re: wanting to move to NC.

i think the mom maybe lied to the sons that maybe the dad abused her? Was the a life ins policy???

She’s clearly a sociopath.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post

Devil's Bathtub was a repeat and was horribly reported.  If you go back to page 67 of this thread, @Cupcake04 gives some excellent reporting on the story, including many things that Dateline left out, that help make more sense of the story.

Regarding the Vanishing of Kelsey episode...clearly the boyfriend and his other girlfriend are guilty, but the plans were just so stupid.  If someone you don't know shows up on your doorstep, claims to be a neighbor, and hands you your favorite Starbucks drink, wouldn't you get suspicious?  No wonder Kelsey didn't actually drink it (nevermind if it wasn't actually poisoned...I  kinda think it was tainted but the gf didn't want to admit it to the cops).  

  • Like 8
  • Useful 2

Share this post


Link to post

Ugh, just watched the Devil's Bathtub rerun.  I do think all four of the defendants were in on the plot, but I can see how there would only be enough evidence against Laura and Colin for a murder conviction.  Every time they showed Colin striding around like he owned the place, I was kind of hoping he'd trip and fall or something.  He just seemed so smug for somebody who had participated in the murder of his own father.  

And sorry, fiance Chelsea, I'm not feeling any sympathy for you.  So you saw the security footage of Colin buying a shovel, gloves, drain cleaner, and a tarp, and you THEN agree to marry this guy?  It's time to pursue relationships with another person.  You know, somebody who didn't just buy a whole bunch of items used in the murder of his own father.  I sincerely hope she has moved on from this guy

Edited by rwgrab
  • Like 13

Share this post


Link to post

I'd like to check page 67 of this thread as recommended by Lizzing. Does anyone know how I can jump right to a specific page? I can't see any easy way to do it. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

@Melina22, If you look under the last post on the page, there will be a list of the past 6 pages listed from left to right and then on the far right of that I see right now "Page 109 of 109" and a little down arrow.  If you click on that down arrow a pop up box will appear that lets you jump to whatever page you want.  Just enter page 67 and hit GO.  I'm not sure if this forum allows for custom page set up but if it does, you might have yours set for more or less posts per page than the person who said the post was on page 67 (just something to consider).  When an option, I always set my "posts per page" to a high number so I don't have to click to the next page as often.

Edited by AngelinaMaria
  • Like 2
  • Useful 3

Share this post


Link to post

Why do most murderers have that smug smile as they walk into court? Thank God it at least got wiped off two of their faces. 

I don't understand why they kept saying there was not a lot of evidence. They had clothes with the victims blood and all of their DNA on it?!?! They are all on the store video. I've seen people convicted with a lot less. 

The fiance was absurd. "Doesn't him disposing of a bag of bloody clothes concern you?" "Oh, well, I think that would give anyone pause, but I know that's not him." ...the fuck?!?!

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, AngelinaMaria said:

If you look under the last post on the page, there will be a list of the past 6 pages listed from left to right and then on the far right of that I see right now "Page 109 of 109" and a little down arrow

The down arrow doesn't show up on mobile devices (at least not mine) but, the same process applies, you just have to click 109 of 109 and a "page" box will appear. Type in the page you what and hit Go.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
On 3/10/2019 at 10:49 AM, Lizzing said:

Regarding the Vanishing of Kelsey episode...clearly the boyfriend and his other girlfriend are guilty, but the plans were just so stupid.  If someone you don't know shows up on your doorstep, claims to be a neighbor, and hands you your favorite Starbucks drink, wouldn't you get suspicious?  No wonder Kelsey didn't actually drink it (nevermind if it wasn't actually poisoned...I  kinda think it was tainted but the gf didn't want to admit it to the cops).  

Right. That was so strange. I live in Colorado so this has been a big local story all along.

I still can't wrap my head around why the woman in Idaho would even think about poisoning the guy's girlfriend. I also believe that Starbucks drink was tainted, but she shaded her story to make herself look less culpable. And not only does she go to Colorado and try the stupid "stranger on the doorstep with poisoned coffee" routine? After she's back in Idaho, he texts her to come to Colorado again, to clean up the murder scene. And - she does. And then takes Kelsey's cellphone back to Idaho where she uses it to be sure it will ping in Idaho in hopes of confusing law enforcement.

What the hell kind of superstud boyfriend is he, to get someone to DO all that stuff? The woman is a nurse (which means she's had some education), has kids, and presumably a decent life - and she's doing that kind of crazy sh*t at the beck and call of some guy in another state. And there's the other former girlfriend now in prison. Obviously a vulnerable person but I believe Patrick exploited and used her and probably enjoyed the power over her. I mean, he trains dogs. Maybe he likes that command-and-obey dynamic with women as well as dogs. 

Poor Kelsey, may she RIP.

And to those good ol' boys who doubt that Patrick could do anything bad? Wake up and smell the coffee. Or, eff off. Whatevs.

Edited by Jeeves · Reason: grammar
  • Like 13

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Jeeves said:

What the hell kind of superstud boyfriend is he, to get someone to DO all that stuff? The woman is a nurse (which means she's had some education), has kids, and presumably a decent life - and she's doing that kind of crazy sh*t at the beck and call of some guy in another state. And there's the other former girlfriend now in prison. Obviously a vulnerable person but I believe Patrick exploited and used her and probably enjoyed the power over her. I mean, he trains dogs. Maybe he likes that command-and-obey dynamic with women as well as dogs

That must be one magic penis.

  • Like 4
  • Laugh 11

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I still can't wrap my head around why the woman in Idaho would even think about poisoning the guy's girlfriend. I also believe that Starbucks drink was tainted, but she shaded her story to make her look less culpable. And not only does she go to Colorado and try the stupid "stranger on the doorstep with poisoned coffee" routine? After she's back in Idaho, he texts her to come to Colorado again, to clean up the murder scene. And - she does. And then takes Kelsey's cellphone back to Idaho where she uses it to be sure it will ping in Idaho in hopes of confusing law enforcement.

The thing that gets me is how she was trying to paint herself as this poor, manipulated woman, and I don't doubt she was on some level, because this guy clearly had a history of that with these women...but since she's doing all this traveling back and forth, she could've found an opportunity at any point during her trips back and forth to just escape him altogether. Say, "Screw this, I'm done" and just either go back to Idaho and not return or, upon landing in Colorado, go to the police instead of Kelsey's home, or something of that sort. It's just weird to me how that didn't seem to be a consideration for her at any point, unless, of course, her "I was just a pawn" story is just that, a story. 

I'd also be wondering, if I were her, why the hell I'm responsible for dealing with a woman that my boyfriend claims is abusing their child. I could understand, if she really believed this child was in danger, her being concerned for the child's welfare on a general level, of course...but even if she believed that, there's only so much she'd really be able to do, since she's, y'know, not related to the child in any way. Yet it seemed like he was expecting her to do all the work. That'd give me a bit of pause, I'd think. Most parents who feel or know their kids are being abused, you'd have to physically restrain them to even try and stop them from doing whatever they felt they needed or had to do, be it legal or illegal, to make that stop. 

Quote

What the hell kind of superstud boyfriend is he, to get someone to DO all that stuff?

That's the thing that always amazes me about these people who try and hire others to kill their significant others. They put on this whole tough, scary, intimidating persona...and yet they get, or try to get, somebody else to do all their dirty work. 

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
17 hours ago, Jeeves said:

And to those good ol' boys who doubt that Patrick could do anything bad? Wake up and smell the coffee. Or, eff off. Whatevs.

Same goes for the friend of his accomplice girlfriend, who was trying to convince us the bitch was salt of the earth, full of integrity and honor, cowboy code kind of gal ... yeah, no.  She was willing to go along with a murder plot - THREE times.

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Quote

I just watched Devil's Bathtub. It was shocking but ultimately really unsatisfying because I feel there must have been so many more layers to the story that we never got. Why would a well off mother of 7 children suddenly decide to divorce her husband and then kill him over custody? What happened to her new boyfriends first wife? Is he really innocent? Why on earth would her son help in the murder? We're just left with giant question marks

I wonder why these are showing up as "new" episodes when they are repeats.

I read some of the posts from the original airing. The problem with so many of these stories is that the show gets the victim's family and friends on camera so the story is always slanted in their favor. We heard nothing from the accused, except for the boyfriend (who I do believe got away with murder). I think it's quite possible the father wasn't the loving Mike Brady type the show made him out to be. Not that he deserved to be murdered, mind you, just that there's more to the story than the one Dateline is telling.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

The only bathtub episode I caught was a rerun also, the guy who said his wife fell asleep in the tub and drowned. I think he had multiple trials before a jury finally found him guilty.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

"Devil's Bathtub" was one of the two episodes that aired on Saturday. The other one was "The Fire Inside." This time it was the husband - in the midst of yet another custody battle - who killed the ex-wife's new boyfriend. I'm 99% certain he was guilty but I don't know if I could have convicted him on the scant evidence they had against him. I was sure he was going to be acquitted.

Share this post


Link to post
On 5/18/2015 at 6:28 AM, zxy556575 said:

I don't remember seeing this one before but Venus' parents and brother got on my nerves with their self-righteous finger pointing. I should have felt sympathy for them but didn't.

I never figured out what it was that he said his Xbox gaming name was. Does anyone know the answer?

Share this post


Link to post

Did dateline ever do an episode on Jody Arias? I watched a show on her yesterday, and although the name was vaguely familiar, I didn't know a thing about the story. 

Share this post


Link to post
11 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Did dateline ever do an episode on Jody Arias? I watched a show on her yesterday, and although the name was vaguely familiar, I didn't know a thing about the story. 

At least 2.

  • Like 1
  • Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post

It’s infuriating when the perpetrator’s family gets custody of the kids (bathtub episode). I wonder why the mom’s family didn’t fight it.  You know those kids are just being brainwashed into thinking their dad is innocent.  

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, OpalNightstream said:

It’s infuriating when the perpetrator’s family gets custody of the kids (bathtub episode). I wonder why the mom’s family didn’t fight it.  You know those kids are just being brainwashed into thinking their dad is innocent.  

Yeah, recall Clara Harris, the dentist, who ran over her husband multiple times in a hotel parking lot? She caught him there with his mistress.  Upon her conviction, the twins went to live with a neighbor! I think they were young too.  No family?  No friends?  I don't get it.  She was recently released from prison.  I think she served 15 of her 20 year sentence. 

Edited by SunnyBeBe
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

I'm always surprised when the convicted person's parents get custody. I guess there's some sort of law/logic that the living (in prison) spouse still retains custody therefore his side gets the children but, it doesn't make sense to me. 

  • Like 4
  • Sad 2

Share this post


Link to post

It didn't really seem like the sister wanted the kids. She didn't mention them much and maybe they were unable to take them for some reason. And by the time he was convicted they were teens and the daughter was her father's biggest supporter. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×