S01.E01: The Original

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, KaleyFirefly said:

This can't be true, though, because when Evil Ed Harris was dragging Dolores off to rape her, she was crying and screaming just as a real person would be.

Perhaps the guests are given a "safe word" that the hosts are programmed to be incapable of saying.

[Hanahope]

She may have b en screaming but she wasn't cursing. She wasn't saying 'stop it asshole, I'm a guest.'  Safe word might work too.

[PreBabylonia]

On 10/3/2016 at 7:08 PM, Miles said:

"The Dollhouse deals in fantasy. That is their business, but that is not their purpose."

I wish I would have seen the paralels, but it took the whattheflick review to point this out to me. This is basically a remake of Joss Whedon's Dollhouse. Including the fantasy-part just being a cover for what is really going on behind the scenes (the scene on the roof made that clear). And I'm all for that. I thought Dollhouse had a ton of potential, that sadly never quite manifested (but I still loved the show). So if HBO can do it bigger and better, by all means.

Also seemed like that basement used to be the entrance. Did it look like the entrance in the movie? I've never seen it.

Seemed like they just built more and more floors on top of the old stuff, until they had a tower that was higher than the clouds. They are the Aperture Science of this world.

What got me was that they wouldn't even try to repair what was causing all that water get in there. No matter how indifferent you are to the stuff that's down there, you don't want water eroding the foundation of your giant ass building.

Not only do I see Westworld (the TV show, not the original) as having large elements of Dollhouse but also see a lot of ties to The Cabin in the Woods. The comment about the multiple basement floors reminded me of that Almost like a homage to Joss Whedon. I was a big fan of that movie when I saw it, so it's definitely a positive connection in my mind. 

I very much enjoyed it, but like any fan of the science fiction and fantasy genres, there is a certain familiarity with the plot. Or as some of my writing books proclaim, there are only seven plots. (Or 26 if you add in subcategories). It all remains to be seen how much originality comes up in the future. If the writing is good, then I think the characters can take it into new territory. 

I am also a fan of the production values - there are some beautiful shots there, especially in the lab and the repetition of certain images - such as the player piano. And I'm relieved that I don't feel the show is misogynistic in any way. I'd read about the controversy re rape culture and I don't think that is a fair criticism to apply to this show - at least, not yet. I can think of many more shows that use degrading women as entertainment. I definitely see Dolores as the protagonist of the piece, and it's necessary to show her suffering without sensationalizing it. Having the actual rape and killing offscreen accomplishes that in my view.

[AuntiePam]

Killing Dolores' father and sweetheart in her presence is at least as distressing to her as the physical attack.  Also, except for MiB's comment about wanting her to put up a fight, we don't actually know that rape was his intent, at least in this encounter.  Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but he could have wanted to get information from her, to get into her head, figuratively rather than literally, like he did with the dealer. 

And in defense of men in general, I don't think most of them have rape fantasies.  Sex with strange women, yeah, but not rape.  I like to think that even if they see the woman as "not human", it would be difficult for them to do that. 

[kokapetl]

The basement level 68 business shows the scale of one of the fake butte/mesa things that the "control centre" building is part of. The British guy also spoke about being "rotated home", so I think Westworld is probably an artificial island, not merely in Arizona or something. The number and ratio of guests to robots and the amount of support staff seen doesn't quite add up. 2000 robots to 1400 guests didn't match up with the ratio we saw during the shootout, there seemed to be no more than a dozen guests watching, and only two of them were role playing the Wild West fantasy, yet the support staff gave it all of their attention.

I don't understand how a software update that allows the robots to access deleted memories could be considered anything other than a terrible idea. What on earth was the prostitute robot remembering that would cause her to smile? Decades of being rode hard and occasionally being killed? 

Edited October 5, 2016 by Kokapetl

[candall]

Oh, *clap*clap*clap* I thought it was outstanding. 

I don't have streaming, so I'm pretty much stuck with networks who have to come in hard and fast with their pilots or risk losing a toehold--finesse need not apply.  Kudos to HBO for having the guts--and being the industry juggernaut strong enough--to do a premiere incorporating everything from "no clue provided" (gunslinger) to "obvious and unavoidable" (rape.)  [Rape is for power--there's going to be some rape when people pay for power.]

But the tastiest bits were the countless clues that fell all along that continuum, with various degrees of subtlety--Teddy considering the location of his most recent demise, the whisper of tears as Daddy entered storage.  She's the oldest host??  Too stupid to grasp the big picture?  Uh-oh, famous Swedish lady, me too.

 

I loved that the umpteenth fly finally got a swat--RIGHT after they'd made her affirm, in paraphrase:  "I'd never hurt a fly."

[Ottis]

Quote

I was wondering that, too. How do they prevent the guests from shooting each other? When they check in do they get a pamphlet telling them who the robots are? 

I wouldn't trust ANY system to protect me from other "newcomers." I better be in a fantasy in which me, or my party, are the only humans, or I'm out. Because people are idiots.

The way the show touched on morality was fascinating. You first go as a "good guy,' doing all the things an upstanding citizen does, and you soon get bored. Then, in that "safe" environment, out of boredom you choose to be a "bad guy" - and love it. Interesting implications there. Unlike Walking Dead, which is a change in reality over the long-term, and wears people down, this is a fantasy place where you can be almost anything for a day. It's human nature to want to try the different paths. Video games allow that all the time. But how far down the path? After 40 years, you have moved to rape? Because you were bored? You were bad? Are all people like that? I like the way it is presented.

[AuntiePam]

I've watched westerns for years, from Gene Autry and Roy Rogers, through John Ford's movies, Clint Eastwood's Man With No Name, and on to Deadwood -- and I've never heard the word "rind" applied to skin texture or age or innocence.  What did that bar girl mean when she told Teddy (twice) and another man (who cut her off) when she said "You don't have much rind on you?" 

[ennui]

1 hour ago, AuntiePam said:

I've watched westerns for years, from Gene Autry and Roy Rogers, through John Ford's movies, Clint Eastwood's Man With No Name, and on to Deadwood -- and I've never heard the word "rind" applied to skin texture or age or innocence.  What did that bar girl mean when she told Teddy (twice) and another man (who cut her off) when she said "You don't have much rind on you?" 

I think rind refers to dirt. People in the old west tended to bathe less, and the prairie is very dusty. So, when she says someone doesn't have much rind on them, I think she means they are clean and new.

[Izeinwinter]

2 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

I don't understand how a software update that allows the robots to access deleted memories could be considered anything other than a terrible idea. What on earth was the prostitute robot remembering that would cause her to smile? Decades of being rode hard and occasionally being killed? 

 

She was remembering the last time she was in for maintenance - After the kiss, as the camera pulls out, we see the tech touching her own lips in the exact same way. This implies that the droid learned this particular gesture from her, and the droid was anticipating being kissed again - this is something the tech makes a habit of. 

 

Beyond that, I am with the crowd that suspect the old guy of deliberately trying to cause the robots to become fully intelligent - it was in no way, shape or form a mistake, but rather an experiment. 

[ennui]

On 10/4/2016 at 10:29 AM, minirth said:

At the end, when Abernathy was walking towards his (hopefully temporary) stay in storage, I was rigid with fear that the camera was going to pull back and show him and the others walking into a furnace.  On a second watching, even knowing that wasn't going to happen, I was still absolutely horrorstruck.  Making him walk to his own 'death' -- shudder.

For me, the creepiest scene was Buffalo Bill putting himself to bed and zipping up his own body bag. I gather that all of the robots in storage are merely in "hibernate" mode, and could be reactivated at any moment.

There seems to be a lot of discussion about rape, so maybe the guests sign a waiver, and risks are part of the adventure?

[numbnut]

3 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

What on earth was the prostitute robot remembering that would cause her to smile? Decades of being rode hard and occasionally being killed? 

Quote

She was remembering the last time she was in for maintenance - After the kiss, as the camera pulls out, we see the tech touching her own lips in the exact same way.

ITA. It's also interesting how they're programmed not to react when confronted with reality (e.g. when the kid says "you're not real" and the city photograph "looks like nothing").

I think the "broken" cooling system was intentionally sabotaged but I'm not sure if it was by Bernard. I'll also guess that the Man in Black lost a loved one during the park massacre 30 years ago (if the 30-year-old event is based on the film).

Edited October 5, 2016 by numbnut

[kokapetl]

"He calls them "reveries." The old gestures were just generic movements. These are tied to specific memories." 

"How?" 

"The memories are purged at the end of every narrative loop. But they're still in there, waiting to be overwritten."

I still think, on it's face, that what the androids experience makes accessing the memories an incredibly stupid idea. Even just the deja vu would obviously drive the androids insane. 

Edited October 5, 2016 by Kokapetl

[ennui]

A reverie is pleasant, it's a state of remembering something nice. 

52 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Even just the deja vu would obviously drive the androids insane. 

Robots can't be insane. That's like saying your cell phone went insane from too many apps. It may malfunction, but it's not insane.

Edited October 5, 2016 by ennui

[BooBear]

3 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

I still think, on it's face, that what the androids experience makes accessing the memories an incredibly stupid idea. Even just the deja vu would obviously drive the androids insane. 

I thought there was a hint here that the writer made the point that the Robots didn't need to be quite so human. That it is better for Westworld if they aren't. But Ford who presumably knows this keeps giving them new qualities. 

[MissScarlett]

7 hours ago, Ottis said:

I wouldn't trust ANY system to protect me from other "newcomers." I better be in a fantasy in which me, or my party, are the only humans, or I'm out. Because people are idiots.

The way the show touched on morality was fascinating. You first go as a "good guy,' doing all the things an upstanding citizen does, and you soon get bored. Then, in that "safe" environment, out of boredom you choose to be a "bad guy" - and love it. Interesting implications there. Unlike Walking Dead, which is a change in reality over the long-term, and wears people down, this is a fantasy place where you can be almost anything for a day. It's human nature to want to try the different paths. Video games allow that all the time. But how far down the path? After 40 years, you have moved to rape? Because you were bored? You were bad? Are all people like that? I like the way it is presented.

My thoughts exactly! I can see the morality lines getting blurred big time -- especially if a newcomer found themselves more drawn to the black hat experience.

I thought it was interesting that they had places designated as PG for kids and then the wilder stuff seemed out further beyond town. I wonder if there are any rules as to what kind of activities can take place in each part of Westworld? They kind of made it seem like a free-for-all for the most part.

Edited October 6, 2016 by MissScarlett

[jbrecken]

I think Ed Harris is playing his same character from The Truman Show - after losing his star made him crack up, he sold his giant domed studio to the robot theme park people in exchange for permanent admission.  He also kept a remote control for the ubiquitous cameras so they won't notice his doings.

[WaltersHair]

Do we even know if this is Earth? The park looks half Monument Valley, half Northern California.

Is the Cannibal area still around? Why and who would want such a thing? People with money want to see cannibalism for fun? Participate?

Too many questions.

[Gobi]

3 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

Do we even know if this is Earth? The park looks half Monument Valley, half Northern California.

Is the Cannibal area still around? Why and who would want such a thing? People with money want to see cannibalism for fun? Participate?

Too many questions.

They referenced Shakespeare and Gertrude Stein, so if it isn't on earth then it's an earth colony somewhere.

[Hanahope]

12 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

Is the Cannibal area still around? Why and who would want such a thing? People with money want to see cannibalism for fun? Participate?

Why do some people like American Horror Story?  Or watching horror movies?  Some people have different tastes.  Maybe some wanted to be scared, like those that go to the very life-like haunted houses.  

It sounds like that particular scenario isn't being run at the moment.  Fads come and go.

[KaleyFirefly]

On 10/4/2016 at 6:07 PM, Gobi said:

I wonder if we'll learn anything about the outside world? It seems that the hosts would be ideal for work people didn't want to do or was too dangerous. Are there robots in the outside world, or is the cost prohibitive?

Maybe that's what the security lady meant when she said that the corporation was planning on using the robots for more than just "entertaining rich a*holes who want to play cowboy" or something like that.

I like this show so far, it's kind of creepy and interesting. I'll see where it goes. Can't wait to see Dolores get her revenge on Evil Ed Harris and well, everybody who put her in that position.

I'd forgotten that Ed Harris can play a bad guy just as well as a good guy (in movies he's often a good guy cop or something). It's been a while since I've seen him do an evil character, and he is so creepy!!

I agree with those who think Anthony Hopkins and the other scientist guy are trying to make the robots sentient, but for what purpose I don't know.

[KaleyFirefly]

22 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

I've watched westerns for years, from Gene Autry and Roy Rogers, through John Ford's movies, Clint Eastwood's Man With No Name, and on to Deadwood -- and I've never heard the word "rind" applied to skin texture or age or innocence.  What did that bar girl mean when she told Teddy (twice) and another man (who cut her off) when she said "You don't have much rind on you?" 

I thought that was weird too. I've never heard that expression.

[Zanne]

On 10/5/2016 at 9:43 AM, AuntiePam said:

I've watched westerns for years, from Gene Autry and Roy Rogers, through John Ford's movies, Clint Eastwood's Man With No Name, and on to Deadwood -- and I've never heard the word "rind" applied to skin texture or age or innocence.  What did that bar girl mean when she told Teddy (twice) and another man (who cut her off) when she said "You don't have much rind on you?" 

I thought she might have meant he was thin-skinned, perhaps a bit too soft for the rough and ready "west" world the hosts are living in. He was a pampered, softhearted city boy in the wrong part of town.

[VCRTracking]

Rewatching it is a relief that Dolores' day is not always going to end horrifying way in the beginning. Later she says goodnight to her original "father" who's alive and staring at the pic on the porch and then wakes up the next morning to find him still there. The outlaw host who earlier raided the Abernathy house and later went haywire, they say is usually on some other storyline separate from that. So I don't thin Dolores wasn't "designed only to be raped" as some people online think, it's Ed Harris's character who chooses to use her that way.

Edited October 7, 2016 by VCRTracking

[sjohnson]

Dolores' main story line seemed to stem from her love for Teddy. I don't think we've seen where that goes. My best guess is guests ride with Teddy to rescue the ranch from a cattle baron squeezing them out, or maybe against rustlers?

[Hanahope]

I wasn't sure whether the bandit(s) who attached Delores' parents would have been there regardless (i.e. had other guests not interacted with them on a different part of the story line), but it looked to me like maybe Ed Harris' character brought them to the farmhouse.  Maybe they go there on their own, maybe it was just because Ed brought them there.  If that is the same bandit that went haywire in the later scene, maybe they don't go to the farmhouse normally.

[ennui]

8 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Dolores' main story line seemed to stem from her love for Teddy. I don't think we've seen where that goes. My best guess is guests ride with Teddy to rescue the ranch from a cattle baron squeezing them out, or maybe against rustlers?

Dolores is the oldest host, so who knows how many story lines she's had that could bubble up in the future. The innocent farm girl is her current plot.

I watched this episode again, and there were scenes I'd forgotten, like the guests joking that they could use Teddy for target practice. I think it's important that the guests are brutal so that we don't sympathize with them. 

I have a feeling that Anthony Hopkins is the only human in administration. 

Forgot to say, I think this show could hold up. We know there are around 1400 hosts, with over 200 interconnected stories. 

The part that puzzles me is when the hosts are talking to each other. I understand it's for us, the viewers, but I'm thinking that the hosts would all be on hold until a human guest shows up. Also, the horses. I can't see why robotic horses would be necessary. 

Edited October 7, 2016 by ennui

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, ennui said:

I can't see why robotic horses would be necessary. 

So they can be ridden by untalented guests, and so they can be wounded in gunfights, and so forth.  It's the wild west, and horses are required, but you don't want to subject a real horse to all what might occur!   (But if the hosts become sentient enough to deserve human consideration, will the host-horses fall under the protection of the RSPCA?)

Edited October 7, 2016 by Netfoot
Spelling

[ennui]

That would be an easy way to stop Man in Black, then; shut down his horse.

[dgpolo]

2 hours ago, Netfoot said:

3 hours ago, ennui said:

I can't see why robotic horses would be necessary. 

So they can be ridden by untalented guests, and so they can be wounded in gunfights, and so forth.  It's the wild west, and horses are required, but you don't want to subject a real horse to all what might occur!   (But if the hosts become sentient enough to deserve human consideration, will the host-horses fall under the protection of the RSPCA?)

Also robotic horses don't need to be fed, watered, housed, rested, or need the services of a vet. Or need to be cleaned up after.

Do all the robots get reset each night? if so how did Mr. Abernathy get missed?

Do all the guests leave each night? So everything can be cleaned up and reset? but that one guest said something about coming with his family the first time but the second time he came for 'two weeks' when he went totally evil? so what if guests stay up all night? how do they reset?

[Netfoot]

2 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

so what if guests stay up all night? how do they reset?

Presumably, they reset at the end of their program "loop", whenever that may be.

[Entchen]

I noticed something on a rewatch. When the sheriff starts having issues, he looks like he's having a stroke or something, but otherwise, he looks normal.  We are then shown the scene where he is being inspected and they are trying to figure out what went wrong.  Except now, he is covered in blood and has been scalped. Looks like at some point in between the fly landing on his face and that couple of guests leaving him, and him being retrieved by the Jeffrey Wright and co., he had a run-in with the Man in Black (I think it's unlikely the techs did that to him as part of their inspection, given that we haven't seen any of the other hosts).

Maybe everyone else saw this and I'm just really unobservant.

Before: http://i.imgur.com/zVImZ3U.png

After: http://i.imgur.com/7XfiheH.png

[AuntiePam]

Entchen, I wondered about that too -- why a diagnosis has to be so messy.  But if the MiB caused that damage, wouldn't he keep the top of the skull, like he did with the dealer? 

I'm left thinking that maybe the sheriff fell down and hit his head, or that the techs had to go inside to check him out.

[ennui]

34 minutes ago, AuntiePam said:

Entchen, I wondered about that too -- why a diagnosis has to be so messy.  But if the MiB caused that damage, wouldn't he keep the top of the skull, like he did with the dealer? 

I'm left thinking that maybe the sheriff fell down and hit his head, or that the techs had to go inside to check him out.

I noticed that he had blood on his face, but I didn't think he'd been scalped. 

[VCRTracking]

Also I realized Dolores especially in the closeups of her father whispering to her looked a lot like Mary Ingalls from Little House on the Prairie.

[ennui]

I watched the scene with the sheriff again, and it looks like his hair came off and was flopped to the side, so he wasn't scalped, but the top of his head was exposed. After they cleaned him up, his hair was back on top of his head.

[candall]

On ‎10‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 2:40 PM, Netfoot said:

So they can be ridden by untalented guests, and so they can be wounded in gunfights, and so forth.

Ha.  My first thought when they showed the town was:  "Hmm, no one has to slog through the horse pee and manure muck in Westworld." 

[peach]

On 10/5/2016 at 8:26 AM, Hanahope said:

She may have b en screaming but she wasn't cursing. She wasn't saying 'stop it asshole, I'm a guest.'  Safe word might work too.

Yes, I think, "Hey, I'm not a host, I'm an investment banker from Chicago paying 40K to be here, so get your damn hands off me before I sue you for all you're worth," would work.

[candall]

I rarely give any show the respect of a repeat viewing, but WOW, this one is an entirely different beast the second time around.    Practically every single line and gesture now feels rich with portent. 

 

The "Judas steer" was always anvil-icious, but knowing Delores is the oldest host makes this exchange--which already had double meaning--even more resonant:   "Whatever happened to that fearsome ne'er-do-well, Daddy?"  "He vanished the day I became your father.  I am what I am because of you . . ."  (He repeats it later, for emphasis.)

Walter, who "always buys it," goes on a killing spree and splashes all his victims with milk, which looks identical to the robot creation bathwater.  Hello, born again christening metaphor.

The gunslinger came prepped with the amount of blood a host requires to 'survive,' that they will not destroy themselves (i.e. by going over a cliff,) and where to find the scalp circuit board/map.  But when he notes that Delores responds differently, he chalks it up to improved programming.  Intel incomplete.

After we see Delores answer two dozen interview interrogatories with a flat yes or no--which presumably she's been doing for 30+ years--she says at the end:  "I don't think so."  No one's startled that Delores has started thinking?? 

 

Mainly, though, the FLIES!  First there's a fly walking across a totally non-reflexive eyeball.  Then a fly lands on the sheriff's face and one eye stays normal, but the other eye goes (red flag!) independent, and the whole system grinds to a halt.  The next fly has landed and is approaching the eye as Teddy listens to casual chatter about using him for target practice, and . . .**cut!!**   We all know what happened to that final pesky little bastard.

[paramitch]

I absolutely loved this, and was a little surprised at it. I was a little worried that it would lack complexity or subtlety, but I absolutely loved this, and the evolution of the story (via Dolores's neverending cycle) was brilliant and moving.

The scene that chilled me the most was when the Man in Black went up to Dolores mid-episode and basically flirted and apologized (even if she was unaware) that he wouldn't be "seeing" (i.e. raping) her that night. I mean, GAHHHHH.

And in the end, I was so psyched by the realization that Dolores is self-aware. But also terrified. Because I cannot even imagine what kind of hell she has undergone, almost daily, for 30 years in that universe. Imagine the level of rage this would build. She's going to scorch the planet before it's all over.

On 10/3/2016 at 9:38 AM, Netfoot said:

I think the nudity is realistic, and HBO avoided making things too prurient in their portrayal.  To a degree I actually find a little surprising, given their past. 

Again, I was pleasantly surprised. I have been a vocal critic of the use of female-centric, prurient nudity on "Game of Thrones" upon occasion, but the nudity here felt both necessary and tastefully done -- and pretty male-female equivalent. I had no problem with it.

On 10/3/2016 at 0:09 PM, Miles said:

It is such an old tired stereotype, that gamers don't care about story and atmosphere. It's the most important part for me. There is a reason my favorite game of all time is still Eternal Darkness, even though it has kinda clunky controls and shitty graphics, even by gamecube standards. And that's the way for most gamers I know.

This! "Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem" is one of my all-time favorite gaming experiences, ever. The complexity, the incredible timespan, the rich mosaic of characters, ages, body types, the great story. One of the best games I have ever played, and no matter how dated it might be graphicswise today, it's still an amazing and wonderful experience. It's also terrifying, suspenseful, horrifying, and even sympathetic and sweet. All the emotions in one game.

On 10/3/2016 at 0:52 PM, BooBear said:

Yes I would also say storage robots would not have clothing because they would want to keep the clothing available for the current robots. 

Period clothing is also hugely expensive to create and maintain (and in this case, there would be every single aspect and layer, so the robot nudity also works from that angle as well.

On 10/3/2016 at 4:08 PM, Miles said:

"The Dollhouse deals in fantasy. That is their business, but that is not their purpose."

I wish I would have seen the paralels, but it took the whattheflick review to point this out to me. This is basically a remake of Joss Whedon's Dollhouse.

I absolutely disagree on this one. "Dollhouse" was about human bodies emptied of consent that became things (and was, I felt, justifiably criticized for that, especially in the early episodes when it was just supposed to be fun and cool to watch an empty Eliza Dushku get literally used by high-paying men). I didn't hate the show -- I liked a lot of it by the end, even if I felt it was always deeply problematic (but it had some wonderful moments).

To me, so far at least, "Westworld" is the opposite. It's about things developing sentience (and the ability to experience violation/slavery) -- and becoming human -- and is exploring the ethical aspects of not just the question of sentience, but of "if it looks human, are we still accountable for treating it like one?" And if we aren't... shouldn't we be? An NPC in a game can't feel what is done to it. But what if it could?

On 10/3/2016 at 6:36 PM, Lebanna said:

Equally, I wonder if we'll ever get a sense of who the Man In Black is outside the park. I bet it turns out that he's a total sweetheart who does nice, kind things for poor human children, or something, and just tortures robots for kicks in his free time to decompress.

(snip) And I suppose, we have to keep in mind that while 'Dolores' sounds a little bit like 'Delos', the name literally means 'pains'. When pain is the undercurrent and purpose of Dolores' entire existence.

Eek, I totally thought this as well, that the Man in Black is probably some big hero in real life (in which case, you have to wonder about the park's confidentiality clauses -- what people fantasize could be damaging in real life, especially HIS). 

On 10/3/2016 at 9:20 PM, rozen said:

I would say most gamers could identify every NPC of a game they play, by sight if not by name. By the time people have enough money to shell out for Westworld, they probably know the game inside out. I'm sure there are other high-tech mechanisms that let outsiders know who is human and who is a host, but I could also buy that people can recognize the characters of what is probably the most acclaimed "game" on Earth.

Anthony Hopkins' character totally wants his synths to gain sentience. He laid it out while he was watching his newest creation be printed, "we're as good as we're gonna get." He wants to usher in Humanity 2.0 and is hiding behind disheveled brilliance to make it happen.

I think his scientist underling is also in on it, as he gave some sort of message to Dolores's dad as he marched, sobbing, into cold storage. 

As a gamer, I agree with all of this. I don't think every gamer would know EVERYONE, but absolutely, they'd probably recognize many. In fact, there are probably dossiers for clients on the participants, character pictures, etc. They may even (for all we know) get to carry or refer to references when in-game.

I'm definitely with you that Hopkins is doing this for a reason, and that he wants the robots to move forward and evolve. And I'm totally on board with that. Watching what poor Dolores suffered day after day here was kind of horrifying. She looks human, so yes, I cannot help but anthropomorphize her.

I've always been susceptible to the idea that androids will in fact dream of electric sheep. So I think we should be very very careful of how we treat them. Kindness is never a bad idea (besides, as a fan of the Terminator and BSG franchises, I've seen how wrong it can go).

I will always hug and salute our Robot Overlords! ;-)

On 10/4/2016 at 6:19 AM, LadyArcadia said:

Wait... THAT was Evan Rachel Wood?  Woah.  I didn't pay much attention to the previews, but my husband insisted I watch this.  The entire time I kept thinking how gorgeous that lead actress was and why hadn't I seen her before.

Looks like she grew up! 

I was such a fan of her work as a child actress on "Once and Again." There, she gave one of the most moving, haunting performances by a child actor I've ever seen, and in a storyline that involved incredibly heavy lifting -- exploring adolescence, sexual awareness, body dysmorphia, etc. She was absolutely fantastic. It's great to see her here, and I think she has the chops to take the character anywhere they need to go.

On 10/4/2016 at 6:29 AM, Scrappygrrl said:

I re-watched this a few times yesterday, while I was home form work nursing a cold. The beginning line of questioning to Dolores, about answering questions correctly so they can wake up from the "dream", was done by Jeffrey Wright's character, but differs from the line of questioning we witness later. It plants seeds of discontent: "What if I told you the newcomers were there for you to play a part" etc. I don't remember the exact phrasing but it was along those lines. I think Jeffrey Wright's character is the one sabotaging the hosts, planting seeds of memories or discontent/rebellion especially when paired with him whispering in Dolores' father's ear before he was put in storage.

Thank you! This was one of the biggest questions I was left with as well, since Wright is the one asking her the incredibly leading questions in the opening -- and telling her point-blank "you are a robot and this is your reality." And now we know she remembers all that, to some degree.

On 10/5/2016 at 9:06 AM, candall said:

But the tastiest bits were the countless clues that fell all along that continuum, with various degrees of subtlety--Teddy considering the location of his most recent demise, the whisper of tears as Daddy entered storage.  She's the oldest host??  Too stupid to grasp the big picture?  Uh-oh, famous Swedish lady, me too.

I loved that the umpteenth fly finally got a swat--RIGHT after they'd made her affirm, in paraphrase:  "I'd never hurt a fly."

I loved that too. My other favorite subtle moment in the end was Teddy subtly reaching over and covering where he was shot with his hand -- and then smiling. He obviously remembers both being killed, and Dolores's final moments with him. So interesting!

On 10/6/2016 at 10:13 PM, VCRTracking said:

Rewatching it is a relief that Dolores' day is not always going to end horrifying way in the beginning. Later she says goodnight to her original "father" who's alive and staring at the pic on the porch and then wakes up the next morning to find him still there. The outlaw host who earlier raided the Abernathy house and later went haywire, they say is usually on some other storyline separate from that. So I don't thin Dolores wasn't "designed only to be raped" as some people online think, it's Ed Harris's character who chooses to use her that way.

I agree, but I do think the constant horrors of Dolores's reality even on the "good days" means humans are not in for a very comfortable time at some point. I'm fascinated that this sweet, sunny, "good" character is only aware -- to a large degree -- of the depravity of humans.

And that's why I think Teddy is a robot. Because Teddy is the one beautiful thing in her life, now that her father has been taken away (and that "father" played the role as we heard for over ten YEARS). So I think she had deep real feelings for him and has deep real feelings for Teddy -- both robots. I think this will factor into her perceptions of humans. But -- on the good side -- we saw that she is still capable of empathy and love, as we saw in her scene with the little human boy. So who knows.

8 hours ago, candall said:

(snipped for space) The "Judas steer" was always anvil-icious, but knowing Delores is the oldest host makes this exchange--which already had double meaning--even more resonant:   "Whatever happened to that fearsome ne'er-do-well, Daddy?"  "He vanished the day I became your father.  I am what I am because of you . . ."  (He repeats it later, for emphasis.)

After we see Delores answer two dozen interview interrogatories with a flat yes or no--which presumably she's been doing for 30+ years--she says at the end:  "I don't think so."  No one's startled that Delores has started thinking?? 

Mainly, though, the FLIES!  First there's a fly walking across a totally non-reflexive eyeball.  Then a fly lands on the sheriff's face and one eye stays normal, but the other eye goes (red flag!) independent, and the whole system grinds to a halt.  The next fly has landed and is approaching the eye as Teddy listens to casual chatter about using him for target practice, and . . .**cut!!**   We all know what happened to that final pesky little bastard.

Great, great points! I was wondering about these too. First off, I agree that Dolores is the "Judas Steer" who will lead the robots into whatever heaven or hell or level of sentience comes next. I also agree that nobody seemed to pick up on the subtle implications of "I don't think so." And the use of the flies was brilliant -- and I was gobsmacked by the very last moment because it was absolutely perfect, chilling, and in line with the entire story we had just watched. 

I'm in. I'm all in. I'm very impressed and think the writers know what they're doing here. The issues are huge -- already they touch on what it means to be human, on the ideas of sentience, of nature vs. nurture, on questions of ethics (human and nonhuman), empathy, and power. Fingers crossed.

[Terrafamilia]

I thought it was very well done. Glad to see Jonathan Nolan not taking much of a hiatus after Person of Interest.

As to whether the Wild West would be a setting of interest to rich a$$holes instead of of zombies or whatnot. These things could be very cyclical. This is 30 years after the park opened and that was some indefinite time in the future. Zombies could be considered so very 2010's at that point.

I was a bit curious about why Dolores and her family were in the middle of a storyline (bandits come and attack in the middle of the night) when they were completely separated from the paying guests. I had thought the MIB had come along to poke around in the aftermath rather than had in anyway prompted the attack. Not only do guests do get to act out with the hosts, including raping and killing, but the hosts themselves can get set upon other hosts (even when no guests are around all for the sake of verisimilitude and progressing the storylines).

[djsunyc]

evan rachel wood and chloe sevigny could be twin sisters on this show.  in fact, with chloe sevigny's half robotic expression, i'm surprised she's not in this.

[Miles]

23 hours ago, paramitch said:

I absolutely disagree on this one. "Dollhouse" was about human bodies emptied of consent that became things (and was, I felt, justifiably criticized for that, especially in the early episodes when it was just supposed to be fun and cool to watch an empty Eliza Dushku get literally used by high-paying men). I didn't hate the show -- I liked a lot of it by the end, even if I felt it was always deeply problematic (but it had some wonderful moments).

To me, so far at least, "Westworld" is the opposite. It's about things developing sentience (and the ability to experience violation/slavery) -- and becoming human -- and is exploring the ethical aspects of not just the question of sentience, but of "if it looks human, are we still accountable for treating it like one?" And if we aren't... shouldn't we be? An NPC in a game can't feel what is done to it. But what if it could?

There are certainly differences. I used a bit of hyperbole when I called it a remake.

But the overall theme is the same. Sentient beings are being wiped, reprogrammed into different people and used for pleasure, without any regard for their "humanity" (for lack of a better term).

You also have memories from previous personalities bleeding through in Westworld, just like in Dollhouse.

A big similarity is that the pleasure side is just the facade. It's there to hide the real purpose of the place and to fund the project. In dollhouse it was to develop a defense against the brain altering technology, because Rossum knew that sooner or later it would be used for war. What the real purpose is in Westworld remains to be seen.

And btw. people who thought Dollhouse was only about Eliza Dushko being reprogrammed, used by rich men and that was somehow supposed to be "fun and cool", really must have never seen anything by Joss Whedon in their lifes. It was clear that he was world building and showing us how deplorable the Dollhouse is. Ofcourse the first few episodes suffered horribly under Fox's executive meddling, but that is another discussion.

[NutMeg]

Quote

Walter, who "always buys it," goes on a killing spree and splashes all his victims with milk, which looks identical to the robot creation bathwater. 

Thank you, thank you, thank you, this milk thing was really puzzling me, now that I can see it as being (for a robot) as subversive as blood, it makes much more sense for me.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Some of the American accents are just off enough to be distracting. Hopefully I'll get used to it.

I don't know how much of the scenery is CGI but it sure is beautiful.

Quote

And storing them standing makes zero sense.  It takes energy for a robot to balance on two feet.  

Not to mention the eventual effects of gravity.

[ottoDbusdriver]

On 10/5/2016 at 0:06 PM, candall said:

I loved that the umpteenth fly finally got a swat--RIGHT after they'd made her affirm, in paraphrase:  "I'd never hurt a fly."

After seeing several flies on several faces, I thought that perhaps these rogue code updates were being delivered by the flies.  Because if all the other animals in the park are robotic (horses, snakes, etc.), why would the flies be any different ?

On 10/7/2016 at 3:40 PM, Netfoot said:

So they can be ridden by untalented guests, and so they can be wounded in gunfights, and so forth.  It's the wild west, and horses are required, but you don't want to subject a real horse to all what might occur!   (But if the hosts become sentient enough to deserve human consideration, will the host-horses fall under the protection of the RSPCA?)

What happens if the host-horses become sentient ?   Revolution of the Houyhnhnms  :)

Edited November 13, 2016 by ottoDbusdriver

[candall]

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Revolution of the Houyhnhnms

Good one!  Clever. 

(I'm curious whether you had to google the spelling or that's just something your brain keeps handy?)

[okerry]

On 11/13/2016 at 8:44 AM, ottoDbusdriver said:

After seeing several flies on several faces, I thought that perhaps these rogue code updates were being delivered by the flies.  Because if all the other animals in the park are robotic (horses, snakes, etc.), why would the flies be any different ?

I think it's in the episode

Spoiler

 

where our two favorite tech-cats, Felix and Sylvester, are working hurriedly on Maeve - and leave the bullet inside her - and are complaining about how rushed and sloppy things are getting. One of them says something like, "No wonder we've got a fly problem."

So, I don't think the flies are supposed to be there at all. Anybody else remember that line?

 

Edited December 13, 2016 by saoirse
Please spoiler tag future ep info

[phoenyx]

On 11/13/2016 at 11:20 AM, okerry said:

I think it's in the episode

Spoiler

 

where our two favorite tech-cats, Felix and Sylvester, are working hurriedly on Maeve - and leave the bullet inside her - and are complaining about how rushed and sloppy things are getting. One of them says something like, "No wonder we've got a fly problem."

So, I don't think the flies are supposed to be there at all. Anybody else remember that line?

 

 

I didn't remember it at all, but one quick "fly problem" search of a certain site with all the Westworld episode transcripts later, I found this from Episode 2...**

Spoiler

 

SYLVESTER: Found it. It's MRSA in her abdomen. Filthy fucking animals not cleaning up. No wonder we have a fucking fly problem.

LUTZ: Don't look at me. I'm the king of hygiene. (Enters something on the computer which beeps.)

SYLVESTER: Bullshit. I've seen you. (Unknown to the two techs, Maeve begins to regain consciousness.) You just glop that shit on and rinse. You -- you understand, soap is mechanical.

LUTZ: Fuck are you talking about?

SYLVESTER: Bubbles. If you're not making the little bubbles, you're not doing shit. (Lutz sees that Maeve is awake and freaks out.)

**

Source: http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87238

 

So it seems unlikely that the flies aren't robotic. If they are, they seem to be completely automated and just act like regular flies, and are apparently not that controllable- in other words, why not just have regular flies?

 

Edited December 13, 2016 by saoirse
Please spoiler tag future ep info

[arc]

Plus, when booking a stay on the website, it goes out of its way to assure you all animals in the park are robotic, except flies.