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S06.E02: A Bitter Draught


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A troubled yet decent man spends decades trying to get his revenge on those who wronged him. He's witnessed one of Regina's burning villages and she had a heavy influence on his current path of vengeance. In the present timeline, this man has a very legitimate reason for trying to kill someone, and it's not because he's a villain. But because Regina is a "hero" now, this man has to die. In fact, it's directly because of Regina that he dies, even though she's the one who pushed him into this situation to begin with. Am I describing 5x02 or 6x02? Either way, this man's death will never be brought to justice and everyone will move on in two seconds like they did with Percival. Henry even awkwardly joked about movie sequels immediately after mentioning Edmond's death.

So once again, Regina kills a man whose heart was in her possession. I felt terrible for Edmond; he literally had no free will when he died. And this show is supposed to be about hope? The Evil Queen was right, Regina did have a third option. In fact, since Regina was the one who took his heart and put him in that position to begin with, it was her responsibility to save him. She could have wounded him, chained him up, and spent the rest of the episode attempting to get his heart back. Killing him was merely the easiest and quickest out, but I guess that's in character for Regina since she loves taking shortcuts.

And what the hell was Henry doing that entire time? The second you realize your phone isn't working, do some Author magic! Write the sword out of Edmond's hands! Or is Henry such a stickler for rules that he's not willing to write something to save his grandparents' lives? Also, does Henry not know that most sequels are almost always worse than the original? Operation Cobra Part II is the stupidest name ever, not to mention it doesn't even serve as a proper sequel to Operation Cobra Part I because their premises are completely different. It's like saying Big Hero 6 is the sequel to Fast Five.

Whoever mentioned Regina fatigue is on point. Regina is okay in smaller doses, but six of the last seven episodes have all had huge Regina focus or have been Regina centrics. Can we go back to making this an actual ensemble show? I feel like I'm watching the television version of NSYNC's final album where it basically became the Justin Timberlake show featuring some other random guys. Belle and Hook only got one minute of screen time in this episode, yet they're a character pairing that's actually unique and refreshing. Why is it that they're only allowed to have one minute conversations with each other once a year?

3 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

That was a really exposition-y episode. The first 3/4 was a story and then everything after was plot set up. Didn't the finale set up a bunch of stuff where the premiere should have done the rest? It shouldn't take four hours of show to get to this point. 

Word. The past four episodes have literally been exposition, Regina monologue, exposition, Regina monologue, exposition... It shouldn't take this long just to set up a plot where we all know the inevitable ending anyways. That's the thing about inevitable endings, you can have more fun during the in-between stuff! So why aren't they doing that?

4 hours ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

I hope the powers that be sprung for the high end dental plan - because if the amount of scenery chewing in this episode is any indication, there are people in the cast that are going to need it.

Even I want to go to the dentist after watching this episode. I had such secondhand embarrassment watching some of those Evil Queen scenes. What was up with that weird "watch you tear yourselves apart" dance near the end? And the Rumple seduction? I don't remember the Evil Queen being this much of a caricature in Season 1. And since when has Regina been sexually attracted to Rumple? Or knew how to sword fight? Has Regina always been secretly attracted to Rumple and her unconscious is finally admitting it? Is it just a weird dominance thing? This episode went out of its way to feature flashbacks just to give current Regina some new character traits that never existed in the first 100 episodes. 

2 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I was actually wondering if EQ actually just plucked Count's heart or if it was something that Regina left hanging around in her crypt. I think its fair to assume that Regina has hearts in her vault that she hasn't mentioned and hasn't bothered to try to return.

I thought the whole point of the intro with the Evil Queen and Zelena breaking into the vault was to retrieve Edmond's heart box, but rewatching the scene, it looks like she's only gathering magical ingredients. We never see what's inside the box though, so maybe the heart was there. Either way, Regina would be an idiot to not go and return all the hearts in her vault after this Count incident. How many characters are holding Idiot Balls right now? Is Regina allowed to toss an Idiot Ball to Grumpy or Granny?

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I liked the Hook and Belle stuff, but it threw the Regina stuff into sharp contrast

Regina can barely recall torturing Marian, doesn't remember Percival, and doesn't remember to tell Snow and Charming about the assassin she sent after them. And then there's Hook who can list off details about all his rings and goes down a canon list of times he's hurt Belle. It's such a stark contrast and I don't even know if the writers realize what they set up here. (Hey, writers. If Hook can pinpoint trying to kill Belle in Season 2, Regina can surely pinpoint killing Graham in Season 1.)

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Then again, this is the same show that had Snow kill Cora to save the entire town, and they made it like she was the worst person in the planet for it, so I never really quite know how morality is suppose to work on this show.

There's a reason we have an entire topic dedicated to the wonky morality on this show.

42 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I had to roll my eyes when the Land of Untold Stories people clapped at Regina's speech at the beginning.  Why did it have to be her who delivered it again?  Wouldn't they trust Snow more?

At least they're showing Regina doing something as Mayor. The past few seasons, it's like she only flaunted the title but didn't bother to do the job.

42 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I'm not excited about the rest of the season at all.  It just looks like another version of"Secrets and Lies".  Which will tear them apart because of all the misunderstandings that occur and all the "betrayal" when the lies are revealed, no doubt.  It feels too contrived for me to get lost in the plot, and depressing as hell to boot.

I laughed when David received the letter at the very end and lied to Killian and Henry that it was nothing. So many lies this season!

On a positive note, Emma's therapy session is a step in the right direction and thankfully Regina is starting to lose magic. It doesn't make sense to have regular Regina having just as much magic as the Evil Queen.

Edited by Curio
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thankfully Regina is starting to lose magic. It doesn't make sense to have regular Regina having just as much magic as the Evil Queen.

Unfortunately, that's solely because Regina is now a hero, and heroes can't do anything right.  Will The Evil Queen be losing her magic too?  Definitely not...

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I thought the whole point of the intro with the Evil Queen and Zelena breaking into the vault was to retrieve Edmond's heart box, but rewatching the scene, it looks like she's just gathering magical ingredients. We never see what's inside the box though, so maybe the heart was there.

I think we're meant to think she did both.  Get the ingredients to trap everyone in town and also to get Edmond's heart box.  As you said, it begs the question why Regina hasn't returned everyone's hearts yet.

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Whoever mentioned Regina fatigue is on point. Regina is okay in smaller doses, but six of the last seven episodes have all had huge Regina focus or have been Regina centrics.

Yes, and just this season alone, these have been two very heavy Regina epiphany episodes.  Which gave her some good scenes for sure, but bordering on overkill especially since we also need to watch The Evil Queen chewing the scenery too.

Edited by Camera One
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I'm trying to figure out why Emma vetoed Granny's for Belle on account of "not wishing the mattresses on my worst enemy" while behind her stand dozens of refugees. Does she not care about their comfort? Did it never occur to her to mention the quality of these horrid mattresses? Are there no magic spells that can improve their quality with a hand wave? We've seen magic do all sorts of things but not improve mattress quality? Yeah right. Just say that the refugees have left Granny's with no more room. Not hard, show.

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5 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Henry you are an idiot.  You are not allowed to handle Hook's movie education.  Crystal Skull may have blunted the awful that was Temple of Doom, but Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom was not one of the best sequels made.  It traumatized my childhood.

But you would think its great because of the heart removal from chests that reminds you of your Mother.

Thank you.  I don't have the Henry Hate that some do, I'm mostly indifferent to him.  But I fully wanted to slap him when  he put Temple of Doom in a list with Empire Strikes Back and The Godfather Part II.    No. Just, no.

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I'm trying to figure out why Emma vetoed Granny's for Belle on account of "not wishing the mattresses on my worst enemy" while behind her stand dozens of refugees. Does she not care about their comfort? Did it never occur to her to mention the quality of these horrid mattresses? Are there no magic spells that can improve their quality with a hand wave? We've seen magic do all sorts of things but not improve mattress quality? Yeah right. Just say that the refugees have left Granny's with no more room. Not hard, show.

I was thinking the same thing.  Seconds after offering the refugees Granny's, Emma's all "But it's not fit for a person I care about...." And in their bloody earshot. Yikes.  Also, since when is Granny's a dump?

Edited by RachelKM
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17 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I'm trying to figure out why Emma vetoed Granny's for Belle on account of "not wishing the mattresses on my worst enemy" while behind her stand dozens of refugees. 

It's also where Hook slept for the majority of Season 4.

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I totally missed that line!  It's another case of "trying to be funny" just makes the characters sound insensitive about the masses.  Seriously, did they need to give such a convoluted reason for Hook to take Belle to the Jolly Roger?  At first, I thought Emma was going to invite Belle to live with them and I was wondering since when did anyone care about Belle.  Remember when they didn't give her a second thought as they fled the Underworld?

On another note, seriously how easy was it to kill Snow and Charming?

Edited by Camera One
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Couldn't Regina just have poofed Edmond into their bedroom with her and have him kill them in their sleep? I guess we're supposed to see that Rumpel was covering for their stupidity behind the scenes, which is the only reason they didn't die. Never mind all those peasants whose lives were destroyed while Snowing were being all sanctimonious about giving Regina another chance and not stooping to her level or whatever. I guess they never heard the saying, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Snowing suck so hard.

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So much of this show drives me crazy and this episode was no exception. Another one of Regina's victims gets murdered by her. It was her fault she slaughtered yet another village and controlled Edmond via heart.  Emma makes a weird remark about mattresses at Granny's after giving them to the refugees, and Emma keeps a secret. But then they give us something real, and real good. Hook and Belle's scene. The entire thing was really well done. Hook apologized and they reference things get did to Belle. Even one she most likely wouldn't remember. If they could make the rest of the episode or show as good as that scene, they'd really have something special. These are the scenes we want to see. It also highlights everything wrong with Regina's redemption. Having a victim and the person who victimized her talking about what he did to her? This is how you write a scene between the two, and then how it could lead to a friendship.   

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7 hours ago, Jul 68 said:

As I was completing my last posted, I found that the text from my previous post magically reappeared. Then, when I tried to get rid of it, my browser crashed. If it helps any, I'm using Firefox on a tablet.

This happened to me during the summer, I believe, on my Android phone. Posted in the 'bugs' forum and everything. I think we landed at the new mobile board software not being compatible with mobile Android Firefox (it may also extend to other phone operating systems, I don't know). I gave up and switched to another browser if I ever wanted to post from mobile.

3 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I'm trying to figure out why Emma vetoed Granny's for Belle on account of "not wishing the mattresses on my worst enemy" while behind her stand dozens of refugees. Does she not care about their comfort? Did it never occur to her to mention the quality of these horrid mattresses? Are there no magic spells that can improve their quality with a hand wave? We've seen magic do all sorts of things but not improve mattress quality? Yeah right. Just say that the refugees have left Granny's with no more room. Not hard, show.

 

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

It's another case of "trying to be funny" just makes the characters sound insensitive about the masses.

Ugh, I hate crap like this. It's absolutely trying to be funny for the sake of funny (but not actually funny regardless) without any thought for anything else that has happened or who the characters actually are. It actually really takes me out of the viewing experience when lines are so blatantly out of place like that. As mentioned, Hook was right there. And we've all been left with the understanding that he lived there a significant chunk of time. Not to mention all the people waiting to get rooms there - not going to endear her to them in the least. So WTF, Emma? Logic/consistency has no place here. I mean I know it doesn't, because OUAT, but you'd think they could manage to keep things straight on the small stuff.

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I know that I have been whinging since the start that I wanted Rumple to have a woman who appreciated him and wanted to join him as, and be equal to, his evil, power-addicted self but the scenes with Regina just made me throw up in my mouth a little.

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It's only the second episode of the season but it already feels like we got stuck with a filler episode.

The only good thing I can remember about this episode was Hook's discussion with Belle. Yay for some continuity and remorse! Everything else felt like a waste of time. Heh, although I did like Granny popping into the Snow/Charming/Henry conversation to explain why she doesn't have Monte Cristo sandwiches on the menu. Yes, Henry, that mysterious guy who disappeared must be a vampire.

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How did she kill Edmund if his heart was removed?

God, now Regina throws a sword like Charming and Emma too?

I don't understand the EQ and Regina thing. So EQ wants Regina's heart to be darkened and then what? Do they merge back or just hang out as evil twins? What is the point of this plotline?

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37 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I don't understand the EQ and Regina thing. So EQ wants Regina's heart to be darkened and then what? Do they merge back or just hang out as evil twins? What is the point of this plotline?

To prove that Regina and the Evil Queen are one in the same so they need to be reintegrated. It's pointless and inevitable! Buckle up for at least a dozen more episodes of this...

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It's only the second episode of the season but it already feels like we got stuck with a filler episode.

This describes it perfectly. And I don't see this changing anytime soon because the structure they're going with this season is very episodic with a lot of stand-alone episodes that feature an Untold Character's story. Next week's promo shows Cinderella, so her flashback will most likely feel like filler as well. Adam & Eddy said this format would allow them to really dig into the main characters' heads, but once again, Hook and Belle's astonishingly character-driven conversation that's been building up for seasons only lasted a minute.

Why does Emma automatically assume Regina would be with that group on Main Street? There are numerous reasons why she wouldn't be there, so it feels more like we're watching the writer's puppet strings setting up this drama. Why not question Rumple or Zelena? They weren't there either. Snow, David, Henry, and Hook are kind of the main four you'd expect to help Emma; Regina isn't needed at literally every event ever. (Although the writers would beg to differ.) If the Season 5 finale is anything to go by, maybe Emma has always been a bit hesitant about Regina reverting back to evil, so it's the first detail she picks out because this has been a fear of hers for a while?

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I really loved this episode, personally. Loved the Count and the flashback. I like when they tuck into corners they haven't really done anything with, like here with the period where Regina couldn't touch Snow. This is the first time I've really enjoyed the TEQ development. Lana Parrilla was phenomenal in the dock scene (as both characters). I've personally thought they showed Regina genuinely being remorseful to Snow, Charming, and the others for quite a long time on this show, but I knew the explicit "I'm sorry" from Regina would be a big deal on this forum. lol At least now the argument that she has never said the exact words, "I'm sorry" is finally at an end now.

I still think it'll be Dark Swan under the hood. I think TEQ is just playing with Rumpel. I'm guessing she hates him as much as the others. Either way, I kind of like what they've done with the Rumbelle storyline so far.

Edited by TheGreenKnight
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Quote

 

Adam & Eddy said this format would allow them to really dig into the main characters' heads

Maybe if they replace "main character" with just Regina, it would be more accurate.  There is not even a point in discussing how this episode dug into Snowing's head (because it didn't).  They didn't even get a filler development episode.  Emma's part in this episode was *technically* character based, but her subplot felt tacked on.  She appeared and disappeared with no explanation.  When Regina realized her magic was weakened by The Evil Queen's spell, she would have called Emma immediately.  It's questionable how she and Henry even got to the docks just in time.

Zelena was all pouty about not being trusted, but the very fact that Regina kept blood magic security for her vault as pretty clear proof that she trusted Zelena.  Considering how changeable and dangerous the Wicked Witch is, it was kinda dumb to use blood magic for the Vault of ingredients, despite finding out they were BFF as children.

Why isn't The Evil Queen furious at Rumple for using her as his pawn?  No, once again, he gets to make a "deal".  

So it's that easy to make a spell that prevents one person from hurting another?  Why didn't Regina put such a spell on Henry every time a new villain came to town (eg. Snow Queen, Queens of Darkness, etc.)?   Shouldn't everyone be protected against Zelena?  Shouldn't she do one for Snowing now so The Evil Queen cannot hurt them in Storybrooke?  

Edited by Camera One
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This spell they were speaking of seems different and specific to a particular perpetrator and not related to the Heart per se.  The spell Rumple cast in "The Cricket Game" (? I think) where Regina was unable to hurt Snowing while in the Enchanted Forest.  At the time, it seemed like a new type of spell that only the powerful Dark One could do.  But In this episode, Regina revealed she used the same spell to prevent Rumple from hurting The Count specifically.  

Maybe it was a simple protection spell, but it seemed more than that to me.

Edited by Camera One
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1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

At least now the argument that she has never said the exact words, "I'm sorry" is finally at an end now.

It's always one step forward, ten steps back with Regina. Actually saying "sorry" is a huge step forward, but Regina killing a man with no free will whose heart she currently possessed is ten steps back.

The fact that everyone still refers to the Evil Queen as a separate person is like all the characters are trying to walk up a down escalator—it doesn't matter how many positive steps forward you take, you're stuck in the same spot you were before and you look like an idiot throughout the entire process.

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This episode was a total filler. The scene with Hook and Belle and the actor playing the Count were the only good things. The rest was quite bad. The flashback was unnecessary (I'm so tired of this Regina tries to kill Snow but fails. We are already in season 6, we need something new) and the EQ trying to seduce Rumple was simply disgusting. And the REC was in full force this espisode.

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2 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

At least now the argument that she has never said the exact words, "I'm sorry" is finally at an end now.

As I said before, it was badly done the first time (with the Charmings), but done very well the second time (with Edmond).  I'd like to see more of that second time-type of apologies from Regina in the future, at least before the inevitable re-merging with the EQ and all the trouble that may bring.

Edited by Mathius
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Not a bad episode, but rather lackluster, all things considered. 

The Good: 

LOVED the Hook and Belle conversation. It shows why Hook is still one of my favorite characters. He is the only redeemed villain that I really do buy feels awful about whats he has done, and wants to make up for it. Its just great to get some nice character moments sprinkled between all the PLOT! stuff. 

I liked the glipse of the Edwardian land. I really hope they use the opportunity of the Land of Untold Stories to have some lands that arent just...a forest. Come on show, you have ALL OF FICTION EVER to play with, get creative! 

Glad that Archie is back, and Emma is talking to him. Not that it seems to be helping though, as Emma still refuses to actually talk to anyone who could actually help her. 

Some funny bits of banter with Charming, and a possible pot line? Score! Even if it does mean he is going to be keeping stupid secrets too. Guess this is where Emma gets it from. 

The Regina stuff was actually alright. As much as I suffer from Regina fatigue, and as much as I think her redemption story is crap, this was at least a step in the right direction for her. And Lana did a great job here.

The Bad:

Way to waste a classic character! If they were going to do a Count episode, they could have easily through in some more bits from his actual story, or at least show more of his elaborate revenge, instead of just announcing who he is at a big party, and stabbing a guy with a sword. And then he ends up just being a puppet of the Evil Queen? Not ok, show? Speaking of...

Regina...did you really HAVE to run him through with a sword? There was really no other way? Couldn't have tried to hit him in the leg, knock him unconscious, something? Then lock him up until he gets his heart back? I mean, restraining the guy couldn't have been that hard, its not like the guys the freaking Terminator. He wasn't even that big of a guy!  

So, MORE villages killed off by Regina! Show, you really need to stop asking me to feel sorry for Regina while continuing to remind me how high of a body count she has. Speaking of, just how stupid were Charming and Snow? Who just allows some random guy to become their wine server? Your the leaders of a land at war! Shouldn't you get a basic background check for people you let in your home? I am pretty positive references have always been a thing on some level. 

More "operations"? Really Henry? Henry is like an actual teenager now. This is just getting weird. Also, if anyone needs a movie night, its Henry. I mean, Temple of Doom? One of the best sequels ever? Really? I mean, it wins points for not having aliens or stupid fake accents, but its hardly worth being mentioned as a Great Sequel. 

This episode was, like I said, alright, but seemed like kind of a waste. 

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I watched last night for the first time this season and was very confused.  I used to watch regularly until I lost interest during last year's winter hiatus and only ended up watching one episode in the 2nd half, and that was the one where Robin died. So I missed the finale. Plus the premiere.  Therefore, I have no idea what is going on.

Anyone think there is any chance I can get back into the show after missing so much? 

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15 minutes ago, buffynut said:

Anyone think there is any chance I can get back into the show after missing so much? 

Just wait a few episodes for the inevitable conclusion where Regina and the Evil Queen merge together again, and then whatever the new grand plot is going forward after that episode, jump in there. Everything will reset to the status quo at that point.

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Also, I have to laugh/cry seeing more of Rumples machinisms back in his Dark One/Enchanted Forest days. So many lives lost, so many lives destroyed, all in the name of Rumples plan to get the Dark Curse cast, and travel to another world...only for everyone to realize how damn easy it is to travel from one world to the next. Rumple spent years on this incredibly complex, Machiavellian plan, when all he really had to do was find some magic beans, or hitch a ride with a mermaid or something. Its easier to travel between world in this universe than it is to catch a cab during rush hour in any major city. 

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4 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I really loved this episode, personally. Loved the Count and the flashback. I like when they tuck into corners they haven't really done anything with, like here with the period where Regina couldn't touch Snow. This is the first time I've really enjoyed the TEQ development. Lana Parrilla was phenomenal in the dock scene (as both characters). I've personally thought they showed Regina genuinely being remorseful to Snow, Charming, and the others for quite a long time on this show, but I knew the explicit "I'm sorry" from Regina would be a big deal on this forum. lol At least now the argument that she has never said the exact words, "I'm sorry" is finally at an end now.

I still think it'll be Dark Swan under the hood. I think TEQ is just playing with Rumpel. I'm guessing she hates him as much as the others. Either way, I kind of like what they've done with the Rumbelle storyline so far.

Please, anyone but The Dark Swann under the hoos.  It seems as if even A&E realize that 5A was a total clusterfuck and are trying to pretend the whole thing never happened.

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55 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I got reminded on tumblr that Operation Cobra Part 2 was already an operation name in 5A. It's like a remake sequel. lol

Holy shit, you're right. I thought that they already used that name when he mentioned it, but I figured, "Nah, the writers wouldn't do that..."

Quote

Emma: So you will help me?
Henry: I just need one more thing.
Emma: What's that?
Henry: A name.
Emma: Operation Cobra: Part II?
Henry: That'll do.

Quote

Henry: Remember what we're calling it. Operation Cobra: Part II.
Regina: Part II?
Henry: Yeah. This time, you're the hero.

Do the writers even care about continuity at this point? It's not like these operations are at all related, so it's not a continuation of what he was doing with Emma. It needed its own name. Why aren't the actors allowed to call these script mistakes out?

33 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

It's easier to travel between world in this universe than it is to catch a cab during rush hour in any major city. 

This show would be 1000% better if they accepted how easy portal travel is and started up an Uber Portal business. Hook doesn't have a job right now, he can fix up the dirigible and run his own taxi service.

Edited by Curio
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Time to count the retreads.

Guest character stars in name only: Rapunzel
Guest character is out to kill main character(s): Merida, Gaston
Character is spending his life avenging the woman he loved: Hook
Rumple is tired of Regina's sidetracking: The Doctor, Enter the Dragon
Belle has broken up with Rumple and needs a place to stay: The Crocodile
Belle confides in another character after a breakup: Ruby
Charming uses what he can find to duel a man on the docks: James
Main character kills guest character in defense but is claimed to be dark because of it: Cora, Cruella
Antagonist uses sentimental possession from a parent to approach main character: Pan
Character visits Archie but storms out in frustration midway through: Regina
Character visits Rumple's shop to make a deal, then makes romantic gestures: Cora

So, that's 11 retreads in the same episode. It was very paint-by-numbers.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Although I liked the scene between Belle and Hook (aside from the loud music that made it hard to hear the dialogue -- the actors may have had to shout over the wind noise, but the music recorded in a studio shouldn't have had the same problem), it's bugging me on multiple levels.

For one, Hook's very sincere apology and contrition made Regina's snarky "I'm sorry" sound even worse. Yeah, we've been waiting years to hear her actually utter those words to Snow, but the way she said it sounded about as sincere as Steve Martin's "Well, excuuuuuuse me." It's the way you'd "apologize" to someone you've apologized to over and over again but who still likes to remind you of all the past wrongs they're still holding grudges for. It definitely didn't come across like the first apology to people you've horribly wronged. Really, Snow would be totally justified in saying it like that the next time Regina brings up Cora's "murder" (I hate that they use that word for it). Regina isn't yet at a point where she gets to sound exasperated that people are sore about all those times she tried to kill them that are still causing problems now.

For another, that conversation sounds like something that would have been said between 4A and 4B, in all that time when Belle and Hook were apparently working together in the library to find a way to rescue the fairies. They'd clearly talked at length about his sense of guilt and both their issues with Rumple. She trusted him enough then that she was willing to give the dagger to what she thought was him. She supported him through his struggle with Emma being the Dark One. She apparently knows that he sacrificed himself to save the town. So why is she now surprised that he's willing to help her? Maybe it would have worked better if they hadn't forgotten that he was dead, if the reason she's surprised he's willing to help was because of Rumple robbing his sacrifice, and she feels guilty about having supported Rumple all that time. She kind of hinted at it, but I think this conversation would have made more sense in context if they'd focused a bit more on where they are now rather than acting like these two haven't interacted before.

I did like his mention that he has work to do before he can forgive himself, since that episode in the last arc irked me. Yeah, you do need to forgive yourself, and it was nice that he got to a place of thinking that he at least deserved to live, but sometimes it's a good thing to have to earn your own forgiveness. That was resolved too easily in the earlier episode. And yet again we had that problem of contrast to Regina, where Ms. "I'm redeemed, okay? And totally a hero, where's my happy ending?" talked about how forgiving yourself is hard. So it's nice that this is more of a process for him, that he's not taking the (not entirely unreasonable) stance that his past died with him and he's making a fresh start with a new life. Though while Emma's being pressured into therapy, it might not be a bad idea for someone this guilt-stricken to talk some things out. Besides, Archie should be on Hook's apology list, so he needs to pay a visit anyway, and that visit could turn into a session-like chat.

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9 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

For one, Hook's very sincere apology and contrition made Regina's snarky "I'm sorry" sound even worse.

Technically, I'd only count Hook's conversation this episode as a very sincere contrition, not an apology. If we're honing in on Regina actually using the words "sorry" or "apologize," then Hook has to do the same. He said sorry to Belle in a similar way Regina did this episode way back in Season 3, but it's good that he's since moved past the snarky apology to not being able to forgive himself and actually listing off every bad deed he's done to Belle. Regina seems to be going in reverse by pushing everything off on the Evil Queen and not taking responsibility for that side of her.

16 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

So why is she now surprised that he's willing to help her? Maybe it would have worked better if they hadn't forgotten that he was dead, if the reason she's surprised he's willing to help was because of Rumple robbing his sacrifice, and she feels guilty about having supported Rumple all that time. She kind of hinted at it, but I think this conversation would have made more sense in context if they'd focused a bit more on where they are now rather than acting like these two haven't interacted before.

That's what happens when you don't allow your main characters to interact with each other in unique combinations very often. Belle and Hook are a fascinating pair, but the writers only give them one scene per season, so it's like they always have to start at ground zero. If they were developed the same way Zelena and Regina have been developed, there would be no need for clunky and repetitive dialogue.

  • Love 2
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2 hours ago, Curio said:

Just wait a few episodes for the inevitable conclusion where Regina and the Evil Queen merge together again, and then whatever the new grand plot is going forward after that episode, jump in there. Everything will reset to the status quo at that point.

How did Regina and the Evil Queen become separate anyway?  If it's not to complicated to explain.

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Just now, buffynut said:

How did Regina and the Evil Queen become separate anyway?  If it's not to complicated to explain.

Jekyll and Hyde were introduced in the Season 5 finale. Dr. Jekyll has a serum that you can inject in your arm that splits you in two: one good side, one bad side. For some reason, Emma and Snow encouraged Regina to take the serum in the finale because Regina doesn't like to be associated with the Evil Queen and wanted to start fresh. Regina took the serum and the Evil Queen literally climbed out of her. And now we're at this mess.

  • Love 4
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3 hours ago, Tiger said:

Please, anyone but The Dark Swann under the hoos.  It seems as if even A&E realize that 5A was a total clusterfuck and are trying to pretend the whole thing never happened.

I loved 5A and especially Dark Swan. I would be disappointed if we didn't see her again during the Jekyll/Hyde season when it would be most appropriate. Dark Swan would represent Emma's walls which are making her keep secrets from her family (seeing as 5A was when her walls were at their worst--closing off everyone so she could fix everything by herself) much as TEQ represents Regina's worst self.

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10 minutes ago, Curio said:

Regina took the serum and the Evil Queen literally climbed out of her. And now we're at this mess.

Also, Regina then ripped out the Evil Queen's heart and crushed it, so she thought she killed the Evil Queen, but apparently not. Some confusion is understandable because Regina without the Evil Queen part of herself isn't very different from Original Recipe Regina, except she did manage to utter the words "I'm sorry" without bursting into flames or crumbling into dust, even if she said them sort of snarkily, so that's a slight improvement.

Really, other than the Jekyll and Hyde thing with Regina and Zelena being alive, it doesn't seem like there's much you need to know about past seasons that you would have missed. We're pretty much back at the end of season 3.

Speaking of Zelena, I find the character entertaining and like what the actress does with her, but she feels so very extraneous, like she's there just because the producers like her and not because she's at all needed for the story. I feel like you could cut her from the cast without changing much of anything.

  • Love 6
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1 minute ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I loved 5A and especially Dark Swan.

5A seems to get a bad rap. If you skip past the unnecessary Merida scenes, I thought it was one of the stronger arcs the show has done.

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Speaking of Zelena, I find the character entertaining and like what the actress does with her, but she feels so very extraneous, like she's there just because the producers like her and not because she's at all needed for the story. I feel like you could cut her from the cast without changing much of anything.

Agreed. When a main character gets axed this season (whether they're killed or dropped from regular status), my money is on Zelena.

I can't tell if the writers coming out right away and hinting at Regina being under the hood means that it's supposed to be a redirect and it will be someone else, or they're playing reverse psychology and it really is her.

  • Love 1
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Thanks Curio and Shanna Marie for the explanation on the 2 Reginas.   I'll probably watch again next week and see if things make any more sense. 

Is the show still having 2 half seasons again? That's what caused me to lose the habit of watching last year.  

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10 minutes ago, buffynut said:

Is the show still having 2 half seasons again?

Supposedly not. Just one whole season with arcs within the season that may overlap. But it remains to be seen how that will play out in practice. Theoretically, they're not going to end all these storylines in December and then start with an entirely new story in March, but it's possible that there could still be a kind of mid-season finale that wraps up something and kicks off something else.

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Yeah, there will probably be a climactic event in the Winter Finale, but the arc will still continue in the Spring.  Other ABC shows like Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D have done that as well for the past few years.

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I don't so much hate the 2 arcs, but the long break from December to March.  In fact, if they're going to have a long break, I think I'd prefer 2 separate arcs.  

Then again, I may not even make it to December if I don't get hooked again in the next couple of weeks.

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6 minutes ago, buffynut said:

I don't so much hate the 2 arcs, but the long break from December to March.

I think I've heard something about that maybe changing, too, but they haven't released a firm schedule. Part of the reason for the long break was all the sports and awards stuff that happens, so with episodes in January and February, it was often a week on, a week off, while they can run straight to the finale if they start in March.

But, like you said, the real issue is how hooked we get, and so far, I'm not too enthralled with this season. It's not painfully bad, but I'm not eagerly awaiting the next episode. We can already guess that Regina's going to have to reintegrate herself, and Emma's going to have some issues with her family and Hook about her secret. Rumple will do some redeeming thing that will cause Belle to get back with him until his next big evil act. We're missing the "I can't wait to see how that plays out!" or "I can't wait to see that happen" or "what will happen?" factor.

Meanwhile, what's with all the steampunk people? What untold story are they supposed to be from? There were the Three Musketeers in the diner, but otherwise, the extras seemed to have wandered in from a steampunk convention. I'm not opposed to steampunk (I write it), but it would be lovely if they were more than set dressing. Really, I wish that they'd take some time to introduce some of these characters in the background while dealing with the Untold Story of the Week instead of just dropping in the new Untold Story of the Week with no set up. It worked this week because it's all still so new that it's not hard to believe that the Count had been hanging around without anyone noticing him or without doing anything, but once these people have been in Storybrooke more than a few days, you'd think we'd at least get a glimpse of some of the characters they'll focus on later before it's their turn for focus. Let us meet the Three Musketeers in passing before it's time for their centric in which we find out they once opposed Regina (not a spoiler, I'm pulling things out of thin air as an example). Besides, it's getting back to what I love about the concept of the series if the Three Musketeers are doing some sword practice with Prince Charming and Captain Hook before they all head to the diner for beers.

  • Love 4
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6 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Besides, it's getting back to what I love about the concept of the series if the Three Musketeers are doing some sword practice with Prince Charming and Captain Hook before they all head to the diner for beers.

Where is this show? I want to watch this show. It's a shame there isn't a network TV show that is set up perfectly for this kind of scenario.

  • Love 5
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2 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I loved 5A and especially Dark Swan. I would be disappointed if we didn't see her again during the Jekyll/Hyde season when it would be most appropriate. Dark Swan would represent Emma's walls which are making her keep secrets from her family (seeing as 5A was when her walls were at their worst--closing off everyone so she could fix everything by herself) much as TEQ represents Regina's worst self.

The Dark Swann character herself wasnt the problem per se; the problem was that the arc made no fucking sense, blew the Dark One mythology to hell, was a blatant deviation from what had been set up in the 4B finale and even from the 5A premeire itself.  

For starters, I think Merida got shoehorned in by the network, the Lily & Maleficient actresses became unexpectedly unavailable, and it also seemed like the show got scared real quick about making real change and decided to revert everything.  

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If Regina had already had Edmond's heart stored away in her vault she would have had to have taken it prior to the wine steward bit. If that had happened it is unlikely he would have been able to punk out of poisoning the Charmings.

Speaking of Edmond, I knew he looked familiar and it was bugging me all through the show till I had a chance afterward to look him up. Nice to see you, Craig Horner, to bad the visit was so short.

This Untold Story thing is making my head hurt. Since Edmond is dead now, what happened to Dumas' novel? Since they said Mercedes was dead it made me think that this was all from the first draft of The Count of Monte Cristo so no worries.  The finished product remains unmolested. By the way, it wasn't Edwardian land. Across the channel in England it would have been the late Regency into the early Victorian era.

  • Love 3
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15 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

By the way, it wasn't Edwardian land. Across the channel in England it would have been the late Regency into the early Victorian era.

Yeah, those were definitely Regency outfits, especially the way the men's coats were cut. Edwardian would be more like early Downton Abbey. It's a similar silhouette for the women (high waist, long and slim) and men's clothing wasn't vastly different, but those jackets and the cravat instead of a necktie are a good clue.

15 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

This Untold Story thing is making my head hurt.

I don't really understand how it works. The stories seem to be in that book Henry keeps flipping through, so how are they "untold"? And how did the Author write things that didn't happen without making them happen? Or do they all have cliffhangers and aren't finished? But if that's the case, what good does it do to look in the book if the answers aren't there? And how did those people know what was going to happen to them so that they wanted to hit pause on their lives? Were they all like the Count, who didn't seem to know what fate he faced or what outcome his story would have and who was just trying to hit pause to keep the handmaiden from dying? And if that's the case, then do we have a serious race against time now that time is moving for them all? And why would they need the book and Henry's help if they already know the problem they need to solve?

  • Love 4
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I only just watched the episode. I don't know if this was because I was spoiled, but I found the episode bland. 

The best part of the episode was the Hook and Belle scene. Otherwise, the plot seemed a mish mash of multiple different storylines from previous seasons. Poor Edmond. His death is worse than Percival's death. Also, if anyone talks about darkening someone's heart again, I'm going to scream! Didn't we go through this crap in 4B?

The Evil Queen half of Regina seems unlike the Regina we've known in the past. Since when has she been machiavellian like Rumple? She's always been the kind to rip out hearts and raze villages. Also, yeah--the flirtation scene with Gold made me want to throw up. I think the writers were going for the hypersexual evil seductress stereotype, but that was sooooo wrong. It was like Monica kissing Richard's son in friends-level gross. 

I agree that EQ took the Count's heart after he was in Storybrooke, not before. 

How did Rumple end up with David's father's good luck charm, and how does he know what that it? I know--my questions are pointless. 

The Zelena/EQ plot was boring. 

Emma's storyline was so-so. I do think it's consistent for her to be afraid that it's Regina under the cloak, but that's obviously a misdirect. 

Quote

how did the Author write things that didn't happen without making them happen?

It's what happened in those people's lives. It's the aftermath that's been put on pause, whatever that means. Unless time was frozen in the LoUS, it doesn't make sense. 

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After this "example" from Edmond/Count of Monte Cristo, the main characters should be asking themselves why they should allow these people's untold stories to play out.  Edmond was trying to save a life.  How are people with stories they don't want played out "dangerous" as Hyde claimed?  There's no way he could have known The Evil Queen was controlling Edmond's heart.  In fact, that's not even how his story is meant to play out.  This "concept" is much more complex than the Unfinished business from 5B, and the Writers don't seem to have thought it through.  It's very reminiscent of the random Author mythology from 4B which STILL makes zero sense today.

  • Love 4
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6 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Unless time was frozen in the LoUS, it doesn't make sense. 

I get the impression time is kind of frozen there -- like Storybrooke under the curse, where they live lives, but nothing really progresses or moves forward. People stay in stasis without the next step in their stories happening. Therefore the handmaiden (can't recall her name) could stay almost dead from the poison for however long without dying. But this may change with the next story they tell.

I'm wondering how these particular people were chosen for the airship, since it surely didn't bring everyone (it wasn't that big). Edmond wouldn't have chosen to go, and the handmaiden certainly wouldn't have. Did Hyde force people? Did he choose people with a link to Regina or the Storybrookers? How did he know? Or was that Rumple's "keys to Storybrooke," that he helped Hyde select the people most likely to cause a problem for Storybrookers? He knew about Edmond and his link to both Regina and the Charmings, and he had the charm from David's father, that's sure to be linked to someone in that bunch.

  • Love 3
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11 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

 

How did Rumple end up with David's father's good luck charm, and how does he know what that it? I know--my questions are pointless. 

He's met the man when he brokered the deal for James, so it's not a stretch that he would know what it was. Rumple seems to show interest in things like that, see Ingrid's ribbons.

And the curse gave him everyone's belongings, including Emma's baby mobile, so it's not a stretch that he would have something that might have some sentimental value for David.

  • Love 4
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