House Mormont: Here We Stand

[GreyBunny]

A place to talk about the formidable and stalwart Night's Watch Lord Commander Jeor Mormont, and of course the lovesick exile Jorah.  

[Fen]

I'm struck by the difference between book!Jorah and show!Jorah. 

Book!Jorah's interest in Daenerys is quite persistent and sexual.  He's fairly taciturn.  He's a big, hulking, hairy man.  Show!Jorah's interest is much more restrained, and expressed romantically.  He's thoughtful and articulate.  He's very good-looking.  It's almost difficult to respond to them as the same character.

I'm looking forward to him getting more to do.  I think the interactions in Daenerys' court are limited, and can't wait to see some development for him.

[Danny Franks]

I've been waiting for the better part of a decade (at least) for Jorah to learn that his father gave the sword, which he himself left behind when he fled in disgrace, to Ned Stark's bastard son. I doubt I'm ever going to see such a scene.

Really, Jeor Mormont was every bit the proper Northern lord. Tough, resilient, honourable, capable. His son? Frittered away his honour and standing on a woman he couldn't keep, and tried to buy it back by betraying another woman, who he then fell in love with. He's not a character I ever had much affection for, although Ian Glen's portrayal of him in the show is better than the book's portrayal.

He had an interesting little camaraderie growing with Rakharo, before the character was killed off, and since then, he's not had much to do but offer Dany sage advice. Even in this last episode, where he could somehow advise her that dragons can never be tamed. How does he know this? He'd never seen one before Dany's hatched. No one living had ever seen one.

[Fen]

 

Even in this last episode, where he could somehow advise her that dragons can never be tamed. How does he know this? He'd never seen one before Dany's hatched. No one living had ever seen one.

I'm guessing it's just based on what anyone in Westeros would have learned about them.  It sounded more like a reminder than a 'here's something you didn't know'. 

It's another example, though, of the sort of limited stuff I mentioned.  Iain Glen is very good - but there's not much to do at Daenerys' court other than offer advice, or stare admiringly.

[GreyBunny]

I think it's common knowledge among Westerosi, particularly the educated ones, that dragons are hard to tame.  No doubt tomes about how well the Targaryens did (or didn't) manage their dragons when they had them are available in various libraries and at the Citadel, and tales would be passed around (though with some embellishment with retellings).   

I began watching the show before reading the books so how I imagine various characters is informed by the actors who play them.  I'm much more sympathetic to Book!Jorah than I probably ought to be, but that's due to the very appealing Iain Glen.

Edited April 13, 2014 by GreyBunny

[mad_typist]

Everyone, please note that the topic has had the Book Talk tag removed from it, to bring it in line with the other house threads. Having said that, here's some book knowledge (non-spoilery, but will spoiler tag it anyway)

 

Even in this last episode, where he could somehow advise her that dragons can never be tamed. How does he know this? He'd never seen one before Dany's hatched. No one living had ever seen one.

In the books, it's indicated that there are lots of books written about the Targaryen dragons over the centuries. I believe there's even a book that catalogs each and every dragon - size, color, personality, etc. I would assume that Jorah, being from a noble family, was probably acquainted with the books.

Edited April 14, 2014 by mad_typist
Added spoiler tags around the book chat.

[Constantinople]

Jorah is in Essos, but he's been kicked out of Meereen.

In the S4 finale, Tyrion, Varys & Arya were heading to Essos.

If Jorah is still around in S5, perhaps he'll bump into one or more of them.

Or, perhaps, Jorah wlil end up in Volantis and work for Talisa's family on the theory that they're looking for someone from Westeros, particularly the North, to help advise them on taking revenge for what happened to Talisa. Though I think that would be a bit far fetched.

I don't see Jorah serving either Tommen or Stannis, even if either would permit him, because that would just validate Dany's banishment.

I also don't see him joining the Night's Watch. It would probably remind Jorah too much of his father and how Jorah let him down.

 

Even in this last episode, where he could somehow advise her that dragons can never be tamed. How does he know this? He'd never seen one before Dany's hatched. No one living had ever seen one.

 

 

I'm guessing it's just based on what anyone in Westeros would have learned about them.  It sounded more like a reminder than a 'here's something you didn't know'.

 

 

I think it's common knowledge among Westerosi, particularly the educated ones, that dragons are hard to tame.  No doubt tomes about how well the Targaryens did (or didn't) manage their dragons when they had them are available in various libraries and at the Citadel, and tales would be passed around (though with some embellishment with retellings).

It may be that it's common or readily available knowledge, but why would Jorah have sought out that knowledge?

In Season One, Jorah affected disbelieve that dragons existed when he & Daenerys were discussing Aegon. On the other hand, he was in King's Landing when it was sacked during the rebellion. It would have been odd if he hadn't taken a peek at the throne room which, according to both Viserys & Tywin, still had the dragon skulls in it.

[Conan Troutman]

In Season One, Jorah affected disbelieve that dragons existed when he & Daenerys were discussing Aegon.

 

Did he? I remember he said something like they were long exctinct.

 

Where could he go now? I'm not sure if his father had officially disowned him when he fled or if he lost his claim forever to his home when he was banned. With the pardon, he maybe could just go home and call it a day. And even if he doesn't own the place, he still might be welcomed there.

 

Of course, that doesn't make for good drama. You said he may not want to join the NW because of his father, but maybe he does it anyway. Would be a logical place and could be an interesting storyline. I'm not sure he wants to stay in Essos since Dany will want to conquer and liberate all the slave cities, and outside the cities there really isn't much. Braavos could be a good destination, though - I don't know if it's a slave city too, but even if so, it's probably not on top of Dany's list because it won't be as easy to conquer. Maybe he can team up with Arya at some point. They could go back to Westeros together once her training is complete.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[Constantinople]

In Season One, Jorah affected disbelieve that dragons existed when he & Daenerys were discussing Aegon.

 

Did he? I remember he said something like they were long exctinct.

Just watched the scene again from You Win or You Die, Season 1, Episode 7.  I interpreted it as Jorah not merely believing that dragons were extinct, but being skeptical they were around 300 years ago. Of course, other people may interpret it differently.

By the way, here's the dialogue from that scene. In the scene immediately before it, Daenerys was extolling the virtues of an iron chair to Drogo without much luck. At the end of the previous episode, Viserys received his golden crown.

 

Daenerys: Can't you help me make him understand?

 

Jorah: The Dothraki do things in their own time for their own reasons.  Have patience Khaleesi.  We will go home, I promise you.

 

Daenerys: My brother (pause) was a fool I know, but he was the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms

 

Jorah: (chuckles)

 

Daenerys: Have I said something funny Ser?

 

Jorah: Forgive me Khaleesi, but your ancestor Aegon the Conqueror didn't seize six of the kingdoms because they were his right.  He had no right to them.  He seized them because he could

 

Daenerys: And because he had dragons

 

Jorah: (sigh).  Well having a few dragons makes things easy

 

Daenerys: You don't believe it?

 

Jorah: Have you ever seen a dragon Khaleesi?  I believe what my eyes and ears report.  As for the rest, it was 300 years ago, who knows what really happened.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Constantinople

[Lady S.]

Yeah, that was some very weird bit of dialogue

 

Where could he go now? I'm not sure if his father had officially disowned him when he fled or if he lost his claim forever to his home when he was banned. With the pardon, he maybe could just go home and call it a day. And even if he doesn't own the place, he still might be welcomed there.

 

I think there was only mention of Jorah shaming and dishonoring his family, I don't think Jeor would think officially disowning him forever would be necessary. I assume Jeor chose to take the black of his own will (which must have been after Jorah's mother died for him to have no wife) as some kind of weird Northern not-really-retirement, so he must have cared about honor and noble duty and all that, but the Watch is all about second chances for anyone so it'd feel a bit hypocritical to judge his own son as dead to him or something. He'd probably prefer Jorah joining the other criminals at the Watch to Jorah's neck meeting Ned's sword, however slim the chances of Jorah choosing that route. Jorah's fleeing instead was added dishonor but if he returned without a pardon, theoretically the Watch should still be an option for him to surrender and keep his head, going by what Maester Luwin told Theon, I think. As to land ownership, that's a good question, seems kinda rude to take it back from whichever family member is in charge now, but the pardon should at least mean he can live there again. It's sad to think Jorah still has no idea about what happened to his father. I remember Craster bragging about his 99th son and asking Jeor if he only had the one, and I hoped to get some oblique reference to Jorah's shame, but nope, Jeor just confirmed the one son and then it was straight to the mutiny. 

 

It's also sad to think that wanting to go home was once common ground for Jorah and Dany. I think it's a motive she could have understood if he'd just been honest with her after he chose to truly serve her instead of going home.

[Conan Troutman]

It's also sad to think that wanting to go home was once common ground for Jorah and Dany. I think it's a motive she could have understood if he'd just been honest with her after he chose to truly serve her instead of going home.

 

I've thought about that, too. If he had come clean right after he saved her from the poisoning attempt (for which he was partially responsible, of course), handing her over his royal pardon so she could burn it or whatever, she might've been able to forgive and trust him. Of course since he kept that a secret from her she really had no choice once she found out. From our perspective her reaction seems a bit harsh, but from her perspective she's totally right that she can't trust him any further and he should consider himself lucky she didn't take his head. I think Jorah knows that, too, that's why he didn't try really hard to change her mind and just left. He could've at least told her that that was exactly what the Lannisters had intented, but it probably wouldn't have changed anything.

 

Regarding to who owns the Mormont lands now, I think Jeor said something in season one (when he handed Jon the sword) that Jorah's sister (or some other female relative) is in charge. If so, she might've been married before she got it, so that technically the heir to it wouldn't be of the Mormont family, but her husband's. Therefore, as far as dynasty politics go, she might not even be that unhappy if Jorah shows up.

[Fen]

 

It may be that it's common or readily available knowledge, but why would Jorah have sought out that knowledge?

 

I don't think it would have been a case of seeking it out.  I would imagine it would probably be part of a standard education for a noble child.  We see Shireen reading about dragons, and Arya has names memorised, on which Tywin comments: 'I'm sure I knew that when I was a boy'. 

[Lady S.]

Regarding to who owns the Mormont lands now, I think Jeor said something in season one (when he handed Jon the sword) that Jorah's sister (or some other female relative) is in charge. If so, she might've been married before she got it, so that technically the heir to it wouldn't be of the Mormont family, but her husband's. Therefore, as far as dynasty politics go, she might not even be that unhappy if Jorah shows up.

That'd be Jeor's sister actually, Jorah's aunt (meaning Jorah must have been not just an only surviving son but Jeor's only surviving child), I wasn't sure if she'd been mentioned on the show and for once didn't feel like looking up a transcript. There was a discussion similar to this about inheritance through the female line in Cersei's thread, but an heir in such a case would just take the mother's name. That's the only way these families can survive for thousands upon thousands of years keeping the same name attached to the same title. The exception being the Baratheon claim to the throne through a female line, but that was a forcible takeover, perhaps things would have been different if the Mad King had no children and Robert inherited naturally. 

 

I don't think it would have been a case of seeking it out.  I would imagine it would probably be part of a standard education for a noble child.  We see Shireen reading about dragons, and Arya has names memorised, on which Tywin comments: 'I'm sure I knew that when I was a boy'. 

Yes, but that makes it even weirder that Jorah acted like dragons were fables in s1, it'd be like educating children about grumkins and snarks in that case. Someone wasn't thinking it through on that s1 script.

[Conan Troutman]

There was a discussion similar to this about inheritance through the female line in Cersei's thread, but an heir in such a case would just take the mother's name.

 

Okay, but the show didn't tell us. Actually, there is quite an amount of things that could've went different. Take Loras, for example. So if he had children with Cersei, that would be Tyrell children (and not replicants)?  So if he and Cersei had children, that would be Tyrells?

 

But then, why would any children of Tyrion and Sansa be Lannisters?

Edited July 21, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[Maximum Taco]

Okay, but the show didn't tell us. Actually, there is quite an amount of things that could've went different. Take Loras, for example. So if he had children with Cersei, that would be Tyrell children (and not replicants)?  So if he and Cersei had children, that would be Tyrells?

 

But then, why would any children of Tyrion and Sansa be Lannisters?

 

The head of the house can choose to take/retain the House name, as the power is established through that descent. Also politically it is good for morale. The bannermen swear themselves to a house, and it's easier for them if their lord/lady bears the name of that house. You'll notice that even though she was wed to Littlefinger, people continue to refer to Lysa as Lady Arryn because it's better for her to be thought of that way. Her connection to Jon and Robin are more important politically than her marriage to Baelish.

 

Cersei is now the Lady of Casterly Rock (since Tywin is dead, Jaime is sworn to the Kingsguard and Tyrion is convicted of regicide) so she would probably take the name Lannister in order to strengthen the legitimacy of her title and claim on the West. Any children she would have with Loras would come after Tommen and Myrcella (and their descendants) when it came to the Rock, however Loras' children would be first in line to inherit Highgarden, therefore it makes more political sense to give them the Tyrell surname, to strengthen their claims on Highgarden and the Reach.

 

Similarly the Northerners were sworn to House Stark, so if Sansa should inherit she would probably style herself as "Lady Stark" to atleast keep up the appearence that the Starks still rule in Winterfell. Her heirs would also take the surname Stark, and if Tyrion did not stand to inherit Casterly Rock he also might choose to take his wife's name.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Constantinople]

Vale House Mormont