S01.E02: Evergreen

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

The Bordelon siblings try to plan their father's funeral but tensions arise between Charley and Nova; Ralph Angel argues with Aunt Violet about inviting his son; Charley meets someone interested in buying the farm.

[wanderingstar]

I'm really liking this show. The characters are so rich, and the look and feel of the show is warm and realistic.

Nova and Calvin intrigue me. Their relationship seems complicated to say the least. He's obviously married, but always wants to be there for her in times of need. It seems like she wants to keep him at arms length. Curious to see how their relationship plays out.

I felt bad for Blue waiting for his Mom. Damn Darla's boss just messed everything up for her. Glad she was eventually able to show up at the funeral.

Poor Charley is getting it from all ends, but she seemed to hit it off with Remy, so that should be interesting.

[Dee]

Another fantastic episode

I loved the small family moments that hinted at how powerful the Bordelon siblings will eventually become once they've fully reconciled. The way the three of them rounded on the undertaker gave me chills.

I loved how firmly Micah sided with Charley. Too often, on most family shows, the writers make the kids side with the problematic parent, to the point of being insufferable brats. It was nice seeing Micah be respectful to his father while still firmly shutting down his insincere apologies.

Auntie Vi and Hollywood are the best. Her insecurities are understandable, but the truth is, if Hollywood wanted to be somewhere else, he'd already be gone. Like he said, he was right where he wanted to be.

That said, although Auntie Vi is very perceptive about Ralph Angel and Blue's relationship, she's too hard on Darla. Yes, Darla is an addict whose made mistakes, but she's genuinely trying to get her life in order and deserves a second chance. It's not like Ralph Angel is fresh out of prison or anything, oh wait...

It was great seeing Darla show up at the funeral. She's fully aware that Ralph Angel wants to keep her at arm's length, but she was determined to be there for her son.

Charley and Remy are so gonna do it. Davis needs to just pack his bags.

For all of Nova's righteous strength and considerable folk magic, she's terrified of depending on Calvin, who is head over heels in love with her. Whether it's because he already has a family, or because she treasures her independence, it means they're clearly gonna have a rocky road in upcoming episodes.

Blue's teacher wants Ralph Angel bad. Unfortunately, Ralph Angel can't get out of his own way long enough to achieve his own happiness, let alone be responsible for hers.

The small touches of Southern culture, like live seafood on the roadside and Nova's use of herbal medicine continue to be a delight.

Kofi Siriboe should always wear white. Always.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Dee

[DearEvette]

What a contrast between the opening of the first ep and this one.  In that one, Nova and Calvin were in dark, blue bathed light, all sexy ... I mean that man was sexy helping her put on her clothes.  Now this one they are in sunlight and a little at odds.  She is very comfortable with their relationship being undercover of night and less so when it is bared to the day.  But there is obvious history there.  She went to his dad's funeral.  Now he wants to support her by going to hers. He seems very unashamed about having a girlfriend.  Makes me wonder if their relationship pre-dates his marriage?

The tension between the sibs comes out to play.  It was well done.  So apparently Charley's mother is alive but distant, only to send a flower arrangement but not come to the funeral.  Now I need to wonder if Nova and Ralph Angel have the same mother.  I thought Ralph Angel was the youngest but maybe Charley is?  Is that where some of the resentment came from?  Was there some favoritism toward Charley?

Also the scene at the funeral home was perfection.  First it laid bare the financial differences between the sibs in a show-not-tell way.  Charley pulls out her black amex with probably no limit whatsover.  Nova is somewhere between blue and white collar worker and has to split her contribution over multiple cards that are probably close to their limit.  And Poor Ralph  Angel has no cash or credit whatsoever and his sister have to float him.   But then all that is forgotten when they support Nova on her hoodoo pouch and giving that funeral home guy a death glare!

Speaking of death glares, i counted at least three unleashed on various men who came for the Bordelons.  First Charley and that guy who showed up at the farm.  I love how steely she got with him.  And Then Nova and her boss.  And finally Mr. 'This is Christian Burial" Funeral guy. 

And again Blue with his doll.  I like how sensitively they are portraying not just that, but how Ralph Angel isn't preaching some hyper masculinity shit about it.  Even going so far as to settle her (Kenya) comfortably on the sink while he cuts Blue's hair.  Also, I am rooting hard for Darla.  She is trying and I hope there is some redemption for her in this.  I loved that she showed up at the funeral and didn't just not show thus heaping more disappointment on Blue.  He was so happy to see her  Damn that kid is adorable.

And finally, how Hot Chocolate gorgeous was Kofi Soriboe in that all white?  Man, oh, man!  That shot of him on the porch... I gushed about the photography on the show in the other thread but that was some other level beautiful.  LOL.

Edited September 8, 2016 by DearEvette

[TVForever]

Mm. When Ralph Angel walked into the shot wearing all white, I actually paused the TV and just stared. What can I say? He just looked BEAUTIFUL.

The photography/cinematography of this show is just lush and gorgeous. It's amazing when you don't realize how much you've missed something until you finally have it. The beauty of the different skin tones- how did I not realize that we weren't seeing this before?

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

What a contrast between the opening of the first ep and this one.  In that one, Nova and Calvin were in dark, blue bathed light, all sexy ... I mean that man was sexy helping her put on her clothes.  Now this one they are in sunlight and a little at odds.  She is very comfortable with their relationship being undercover of night and less so when it is bared to the day.  But there is obvious history there.  She went to his dad's funeral.  Now he wants to support her by going to hers. He seems very unashamed about having a girlfriend.  Makes me wonder if their relationship pre-dates his marriage?

The tension between the sibs comes out to play.  It was well done.  So apparently Charley's mother is alive but distant, only to send a flower arrangement but not come to the funeral.  Now I need to wonder if Nova and Ralph Angel have the same mother.  I thought Ralph Angel was the youngest but maybe Charley is?  Is that where some of the resentment came from?  Was there some favoritism toward Charley?

Also the scene at the funeral home was perfection.  First it laid bare the financial differences between the sibs in a show-not-tell way.  Charley pulls out her black amex with probably no limit whatsover.  Nova is somewhere between blue and white collar worker and has to split her contribution over multiple cards that are probably close to their limit.  And Poor Ralph  Angel has no cash or credit whatsoever and his sister have to float him.   But then all that is forgotten when they support Nova on her hoodoo pouch and giving that funeral home guy a death glare!

Speaking of death glares, i counted at least three unleashed on various men who came for the Bordelons.  First Charley and that guy who showed up at the farm.  I love how steely she got with him.  And Then Nova and her boss.  And finally Mr. 'This is Christian Burial" Funeral guy. 

And again Blue with his doll.  I like how sensitively they are portraying not just that, but how Ralph Angel isn't preaching some hyper masculinity shit about it.  Even going so far as to settle her (Kenya) comfortably on the sink while he cuts Blue's hair.  Also, I am rooting hard for Darla.  She is trying and I hope there is some redemption for her in this.  I loved that she showed up at the funeral and didn't just not show thus heaping more disappointment on Blue.  He was so happy to see her  Damn that kid is adorable.

And finally, how Hot Chocolate gorgeous was Kofi Soriboe in that all white?  Man, oh, man!  That shot of him on the porch... I gushed about the photography on the show in the other thread but that was some other level beautiful.  LOL.

So clearly Nova does know she's the other woman. He seems to be in love with her; she seems to be in love with him too but doesn't want to be, and doesn't want to lean on him too much because she knows she's going to be disappointed. I'm guessing that she's wrestling with herself about ending it but isn't there yet, given that she relented about the funeral and was glad that he showed up.

Since the siblings have different mothers, I wondered if they were raised together in the same house. Charley's mother is distant and it seems like the other two don't like her. I'm also wondering if the show will highlight the light skinned/dark skinned difference between the sibs - light skinned Charley leads a life of affluence and the other two do not. The show also made a point to highlight that Charley is out of touch with her southern upbringing; she didn't know how to pick the best fish or about the customs surrounding the service.

The funeral home scene was very well done. It reminded me a little of Friday Night Lights when Matt was trying to bury his father, a soldier was was killed in the line of duty; he's numb and also only about 19, so he's just saying yes to everything. Tami Taylor shoos him out, looks the funeral director dead in the eye, and asks if it looks like Matt has nine grand to bury his father. The director looks down and says no, and then Tami runs over him all "Start over and hurry up." It's a very powerful scene.

Speaking of money, I had the closed captioning on (my AC is loud) and Nova said "Nine it is." The captioning said "$9000 it is." But then when they were divvying up the payment, Nova said "Put three hundred on this" or something like that, which made it sound like her portion was $300. The funeral couldn't possibly have cost $900, could it? The casket alone would be a few grand. 

Dondre Whitfield is still cute. He's always been cute, even back when he was Robert on The Cosby Show. He and Charley are going to bone.

Blue with his doll reminded me of the hashtag #carefreeblackkids2k16, which was started on Twitter in the wake of shootings by police this summer. It's just black kids being kids. Blue is such a sweet, sensitive boy and I love that his father understands that about him and doesn't try to change it. I was glad his mother showed up for him. She really does appear to be trying. (I want Ralph Angel to get with Blue's teacher though.)

I also liked that while Charley and Nova aren't that close, Nova isn't about to sell her out. You can tell the siblings will be nothing to fuck with once they're working together. What a gross request by her editor!

[Artsda]

I love this show. Great episode.

[Dee]

The crazy thing about Ralph Angel, is that Kofi Siriboe is only 22, in real life.

He easily reads a good 5-10 years older imo.

[Empress1]

17 minutes ago, Dee said:

The crazy thing about Ralph Angel, is that Kofi Siriboe is only 22, in real life.

He easily reads a good 5-10 years older imo.

Oh wow, he does. Rutina Wesley is 37 and I can't find an age for Dawn-Lyen Gardner but she and Rutina were classmates at Juilliard, so I'm guessing they're close in age. Kofi Siriboe looks like their contemporary. I've been assuming that Charley is the oldest, then Nova, then Ralph Angel and that they're all within a reasonable sibling distance (2-4 years). I wonder if the facial hair is for the role - he must be baby-faced without it.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Empress1

[TiffanyNichelle]

I hope they clear up the age order soon because I'm confused. Nova and R-A have the same mother (who's dead I think) and Charley's mom is living off somewhere (with money). Nova is the oldest but is Charley in the middle, with Ernest dipping out with her mother before going back to Nova's mom and having Ralph-Angel? There's a tension and distance between the girls that could be because of that.  It would also explain why Charley doesn't fit in completely. Or she could be the baby of the family but then again Ralph-Angel also has the feeling of being the baby and not just because he was pampered as the only boy.

I love all the messed and normal family dynamics. The squabbling over the payment and then all of them coming together to stare down the funeral director when he objected to Nova sowing in the satchel. I liked that Charley helped her hold the lining. Other shows would have had Charley emphasize her "outsider" status by siding with the funeral director. But while Charley has forgotten how to pick out fish or throws money at all her problems, this is one thing she has retained.

Blue wanting a haircut to look good for his mother broke my heart. He is the sweetest. Protect that little boy at all costs!

Shallow note everyone looked damn good in their white outfits at the funeral, especially Ralph-Angel.

Damn Robert still looks good. Don't tell Vanessa! She'll regret marrying that gross old man, lol.

[candall]

So many extraordinary touches:  Nova seems pretty clearheaded about her "mistress" status instead of ridiculously delusional; little boy loving his dolly is fully endorsed by supportive adults; teenage son does not spout off "You DROVE him away!"  (He'll probably get his SAG card--Sullen Teenager Division--revoked for that.)

 

They went a little bit standard with the mustache-twirler assessing the land, but the news from Daddy Glynn's (hot) young confidante was an interesting development.  Why no crop for two years?  I know all their plates are full, but that's huge--they need to get on that, first thing in the morning.

 

Both allegiances and resentments among the sibs have been deftly drawn.  I think the friction shown was stronger and more ingrained long-term and probably would have ruled out the bonding moments, but I don't have much experience with families, so what do I know?

[kdm07]

43 minutes ago, candall said:

Both allegiances and resentments among the sibs have been deftly drawn.  I think the friction shown was stronger and more ingrained long-term and probably would have ruled out the bonding moments, but I don't have much experience with families, so what do I know?

Speaking as someone who has plenty of aunts and uncles on both sides of the family that don't get along, this family's interactions aren't new to me. They'll have their issues with each other but the minute you mess with any of them, all of them are coming down on your head. My mother and my aunt barely speak but at a relative's funeral recently, someone popped off at my mom and my aunt and uncle almost ended up brawling with that person in the street.

The second episode solidified my liking of this show. Hope they can keep it up for a full season.

Edited September 8, 2016 by kdm07

[candall]

Well, there you go then.  Interesting.  (I'm an only child of onlies . . .and also maybe just a tiny little bit bitter that the juicy family loyalty stuff seems to dry up somewhere north of the "second-cousin" line.)

[gesundheit]

I was so fascinated with what the parameters of the Nova/Calvin relationship are. It almost feels like she prefers a married man to avoid getting too attached, but of course it could be a chicken/egg situation. Good lord those final moments were stunning to look at. (One nitpick, but of course it's one for practically every movie and TV show in history: couldn't Blue's mother have just called to say she was desperately sorry but would not make it to pick him up till later? Instead they had to just assume her tardiness was flakiness and take Blue to the funeral. We know she has a working cell phone and can use it at work.)

[DearEvette]

I am making up my own theories about Nova/Calvin in my head just based off the cryptic stuff they say and their interaction with each other.

It feels like they have been involved for awhile.  So I theorize they either knew each other/were involved before he got married.

I am leaning toward the theory they got involved before he got married because he seems really into her and she seems to be holding him at arms' length.   Also when she told him to 'respect my choices' or something like that and he makes an exasperated comment about how she keeps him out, makes me feel like they are having an old argument. But her sitting outside his house crying almost makes me wonder if she spurned him and he moved on, got married, had kids  and somehow they gravitated back toward each other and got involved again.   So maybe she is regretting some of her choices?

I could envision a scenario where if they did meet pre-marriage, she might have balked at being openly involved with a white cop her being an activist in Black NOLA.  She might've felt that it ruined her cred.  Or maybe he wants to leave his wife and she refuses to co-sign?

That is the romantic in me though, well, as romantic as you can get having an affair.  LOL.

[TiffanyNichelle]

I am curious about Nova and Calvin because I wonder if the reason why Calvin's pushing for more with Nova because he knows she'll never take him up on it? So he's never in any real danger of having to actually choose her over his wife and kids but he can still feel like he did something.

[EtheltoTillie]

I think the funeral was $9,000, but she was going to spread out with many cards $300 each for a down payment.  She said something about floating the rest, I think.  Anyone? (I watch with closed captions too--air conditioning and just losing my hearing with age.  Some shows really have a lot of bloopers.)

I love the relationship between Blue and Ralph Angel. 

I love everything about this show.  Everyone has already mentioned so many of the interesting things.  This show is full of amazing detail.

3 hours ago, kdm07 said:

 

The second episode solidified my liking of this show. Hope they can keep it up for a full season.

They already renewed for a second season!    http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/queen-sugar-renewed-season-2-ava-duvernay-1201828038/

Edited September 8, 2016 by GussieK

[topanga]

Loved this episode. Quick question: Is Blue short for something or a nickname? Or is the child's name really Blue?

[ribboninthesky1]

I assumed it was a nickname.  That little actor is adorable. 

I'm nowhere near Charlie's wealth, but I sympathize with her the most of the three.  I feel like she's been penalized for having a different mother, and leaving home to live the high life.  I wonder if the former is what pushed her towards the latter.  But she didn't let her trainwreck of a life supercede trying to help.    

Kofi Siriboe is only 22? LAWDDDDDDDDDD, help me.  Agreed with the other comments that he should be in white always. I'm not that crazy about Ralph Angel, though.  Maybe he went to prison for something he didn't do.  If not, he's coming off mad hypocritical about Blu's mom. Also, she's managed to get a job...what is HE doing? I hope he's heavily involved with getting the farm back up and running.      

I love that Aunt Violet, the older black woman has the hot, stable relationship with a younger man. That rarely happens.       

Rutina and Greg have mad chemistry, but at the moment, all I see is NOLA Olivia and Fitz.  If that wife, or anyone else, shows up calling Nova a whore or homewrecker, I may have to bail on the show.  Not going through that shit again. I'm not sure why they couldn't still have the same relationship conflict without him being married. 

Spoiler

Supposedly, Calvin is single in the book. 

Edited September 9, 2016 by ribboninthesky1

[sereion]

16 hours ago, DearEvette said:

 

And again Blue with his doll.  I like how sensitively they are portraying not just that, but how Ralph Angel isn't preaching some hyper masculinity shit about it.

16 hours ago, DearEvette said:

 

Even when Ralph Angel took Kenya from Blue on his way to class, he didn't berate or humiliate him; he explained his reasoning for taking the doll in a way that assured Blue that Kenya will still be there when he returns from school. In fact, I think Ralph Angel believed that his son would be bullied mercilessly for playing with dolls, and felt that he was protecting him by taking Kenya.

I am intrigued by the relationship between Charley and Nova; I sense that Charley was the favorite, which may explain Nova's resentment towards her, add to her being filthy rich with a family, I have to wonder if that something she wanted as well (the family, of course, Nova seems to be content with her career). I felt bad for Charley; she lost her dad, husband is caught up in a scandal, and her siblings nearly shut her out of the arrangments. She couldn't win.

 I don't condone Nova seeing a married man, I do respect that she is realistic with her with Calvin, and like someone mentioned understand the boundaries of their relationship. I do wonder how the relationship began; did they have history before he got married and reconnected? Did she go into the relationship knowing he was married? Inquring minds want to know.

Yaass at Kofi Siriobe in all white; totally complimented that dark chocolate complexion.

It can't be said enough, the show is incredible; it's getting a season pass on my DVR.

[topanga]

7 minutes ago, sereion said:

I am intrigued by the relationship between Charley and Nova; I sense that Charley was the favorite, which may explain Nova's resentment towards her, add to her being filthy rich with a family, I have to wonder if that something she wanted as well (the family, of course, Nova seems to be content with her career). I felt bad for Charley; she lost her dad, husband is caught up in a scandal, and her siblings nearly shut her out of the arrangments. She couldn't win.

Charley was whose favorite? Maybe the dad's? According to Robert (I can't remember the character's name), Ernest talked about Charley all of the time. But their relationship wasn't as simple as that. Charley rarely went home to visit--in fact, when she told her dad she was coming to visit, apparently this is something she said a lot but never followed through with doing.  Did she have a problem with St. Josephine's itself? I suppose this is something we'll learn in the future. 

One thing the episode never addressed was Nova actively shutting Charley out of the plans for their father's funeral. Charley brought it up but Nova never responded. I do agree that having the servers was a bad idea, but Nova wayyy overreacted. I'm sure we'll learn more about the history of their relationship and why they're so estranged. 

And this is quite a unique family in that Charley is ostracized for being wealthy, but we never see anyone hit her up for money. In the experience of every family I know, the one who "made it" is constantly solicited by cousins, siblings, even parents, for financial assistance. How realistic is it that not even Ralph Angel asks Charley for money?

[justmehere]

11 hours ago, gesundheit said:

couldn't Blue's mother have just called to say she was desperately sorry but would not make it to pick him up till later? Instead they had to just assume her tardiness was flakiness and take Blue to the funeral. We know she has a working cell phone and can use it at work.

There was a scene where she was at work, trying desperately to make a call, but there were cars backed up in a line with drivers honking impatiently. She had to attend to them or she might have lost her job.

The boss causing her to break her promise felt too obvious or convenient at first, but they made it work later by having her show up at the funeral. I loved that she showed up.

[Dee]

I think Nova's major issue with Charley was that she was using her money to overcompensate for her extended absence.

The first time Nova openly exhibits her irritation at Charley is when Charley makes it clear she's forgotten the (very old & very southern) tradition of purchasing, and preparing, live seafood. Prior to that, Nova is stilted yet cooperative, toward her sister (as is Ralph Angel), but not openly contemptuous. It isn't until Charley hires the caterers (outsiders) to a very private family function (after absentmindedly complimenting her mother's flower arrangement then unwittingly steamrolling her sibs in the funeral director's office) that Nova loses her cool.

Nova views Charley's ostentatious displays of wealth as a means of taking charge (after years of being MIA) instead of genuinely grieving and acting as team player to plan Ernest's funeral.

What Nova doesn't realize is that her sister is using her money as a shield and a security blanket. Charley feels super guilty for not visiting her family (especially her Dad) as much as she should have, so she uses her money to free everyone up to focus less on the mundane particulars of the funeral process and more on their grief. Charley's also been inundated with reminders of how little she knew of her Dad, and a family who knew him so well that their preparation for his funeral bordered on perfunctory, so she carelessly insists on monetary solutions because it's the only thing she feels (has major value) that she has can contribute.

[candall]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

Nova views Charley's ostentatious displays of wealth as a means of taking charge (after years of being MIA) instead of genuinely grieving and acting as team player to plan Ernest's funeral.

But (if I remember correctly) finances hadn't even come up when Charley was informed that the obit had been written and submitted, [some other detail I can't remember] was taken care of, and it looked like she was only included in the funeral home visit because she was lucky enough to appear in time for the appointment Nova had scheduled.

Tough to be a team player if the team won't let you play.

I saw it more like:  "Well, if I can't contribute any other way, at least I can contribute financially."

******

I'm glad the funeral director didn't get away with unloading that purple casket on them!

[Dee]

The funeral details taken care of by the rest of the family, were fairly small(ish) things; like the contents of the program, the suit Ernest would be buried in, and the menu & place settings for the repast. When it came to the big things such as choosing Ernest casket and actually preparing the repast, the family was fully prepared to incorporate Charley into the decision-making process.

And the fam doesn't arbitrarily cut Charley out of the smaller details to be malicious either. As Nova tells her sister, they believed it would be easier, given she had so much going on with Davis, to stress over relatively inconsequential funeral details. Details that Charley, especially, wouldn't be much of a help with, having been MIA for so long.

However Charley, already feeling tremendously ill at ease in what she knows should be familiar surroundings and due to her distant relationship with her father, lashes out by projecting her insecurities onto them. An outburst that likely wouldn't have been as heightened had Charley gotten to say goodbye to Ernest, which she didn't, because she was too busy being devastated by Davis situation in LA.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Dee

[LydiaMoon1]

Quote

The funeral details taken care of by the rest of the family, were fairly small(ish) things; like the contents of the program, the suit Ernest would be buried in, and the menu & place settings for the repast. When it came to the big things such as choosing Ernest casket and actually preparing the repast, the family was fully prepared to incorporate Charley into the decision-making process.

I completely agree.  There are a hundred little details involved in planning a parent's funeral, from remembering everyone who should be listed on the program to knowing who to ask to sing a solo at the funeral or fry the fish for the repast.  These are the kind of details that only the people who have been around on a regular basis can know.  Charley has been away for goodness knows how long? She wouldn't know this stuff anymore.  Better that Nova and Ralph Angel handled the minor details while they all planned the major things together.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Music they're using is fantastic. Hope it keeps up past these early episodes.

"Peckerwood." Haven't heard that in a while.

I'm going to guess that Charley is the middle child and some weirdness happened because their father got back with Nova's mother which resulted in Ralph Angel.

Quote

He seems very unashamed about having a girlfriend.

I'll be curious to see where Calvin's wife is with this. Wonder if it's one of those situations where she knows but looks the other way as long as he doesn't get too public with it. Whatever, ICAM with comments upthread about this hopefully not going into Olivia/Fitz/Mellie territory.

[Empress1]

24 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Music they're using is fantastic. Hope it keeps up past these early episodes.

"Peckerwood." Haven't heard that in a while.

I'm going to guess that Charley is the middle child and some weirdness happened because their father got back with Nova's mother which resulted in Ralph Angel.

I'll be curious to see where Calvin's wife is with this. Wonder if it's one of those situations where she knows but looks the other way as long as he doesn't get too public with it. Whatever, ICAM with comments upthread about this hopefully not going into Olivia/Fitz/Mellie territory.

Me too. He seems to spend a lot of time with Nova. He stayed over at her place - what did he tell his wife? I also get the sense that this is an affair with some heft, as opposed to them just fooling around. There's clearly intimacy between them and real feelings, and the comment he made about how she went to his father's funeral intimated that they've been together a while.

That exchange about his father's funeral was interesting; it seems like his father was an important man. She said half the town was there. That adds another layer to their affair - it would be that much more scandalous if it got out that the son of whoever was stepping out.

[kdm07]

5 hours ago, Dee said:

The funeral details taken care of by the rest of the family, were fairly small(ish) things; like the contents of the program, the suit Ernest would be buried in, and the menu & place settings for the repast. When it came to the big things such as choosing Ernest casket and actually preparing the repast, the family was fully prepared to incorporate Charley into the decision-making process.

And the fam doesn't arbitrarily cut Charley out of the smaller details to be malicious either. As Nova tells her sister, they believed it would be easier, given she had so much going on with Davis, to stress over relatively inconsequential funeral details. Details that Charley, especially, wouldn't be much of a help with, having been MIA for so long.

However Charley, already feeling tremendously ill at ease in what she knows should be familiar surroundings and due to her distant relationship with her father, lashes out by projecting her insecurities onto them. An outburst that likely wouldn't have been as heightened had Charley gotten to say goodbye to Ernest, which she didn't, because she was too busy being devastated by Davis situation in LA.

 

1 hour ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

I completely agree.  There are a hundred little details involved in planning a parent's funeral, from remembering everyone who should be listed on the program to knowing who to ask to sing a solo at the funeral or fry the fish for the repast.  These are the kind of details that only the people who have been around on a regular basis can know.  Charley has been away for goodness knows how long? She wouldn't know this stuff anymore.  Better that Nova and Ralph Angel handled the minor details while they all planned the major things together.

It wasn't just the obit that they left her out of. That scene in the lounge showed Charley initially asking about it then listing a bunch of stuff to try and help with and she was turned down at each opportunity by Nova and the rest. She eventually asked if there was anything at all she could help with and Nova then (almost reluctantly) told her about the funeral home. I felt like whatever issues they have with her previously made them try to exclude her from things. I'm sure the show will let us know what those issues are soon.

[Dee]

I listed all the funeral activities Charley asked about in the living room above, and none of them were so utterly important that it was necessary for her, in particular, to go about doing them; especially when it was much more economical for the family members who'd spent more time with Ernest, and thus knew him better (including Violet), to handle those tasks so they'd be completed with as little hassle as possible imo.

Charley was using the funeral arrangements to gauge her siblings emotional states, which was decidedly unfair and quite immature, considering the circumstances. If she wanted to know how Ralph Angel and Nova were feeling, about anything, she should've asked them outright instead of assuming they were excluding her. But because Charley doesn't have functioning relationships with her siblings, she doesn't see or treat them as anything other than athletes she needs to manage, instead of human beings who are grieving every bit as much as her.

Nova, clearly uncomfortable with Charley's return, made a concerted effort on the ride back from the mortuary, to inquire about Charley's emotional state, re: Davis. Charley hasn't made any such effort to any of her family (not even Micah). She's been so enveloped in her own cocoon of bitter regret and emotional self flagellation that she can't see beyond her own needs.

It's telling that, for all of Ralph Angel and Nova's misgivings about their sister, they've never delegitimized her grief or used what should be a time for familial solidarity as a forum to air petty grievances imo. 

Edited September 9, 2016 by Dee

[MaryTylerMoore]

17 hours ago, topanga said:

Or is the child's name really Blue?

Like the richest child in the world, what's wrong with that?

Quote

And this is quite a unique family in that Charley is ostracized for being wealthy, but we never see anyone hit her up for money. In the experience of every family I know, the one who "made it" is constantly solicited by cousins, siblings, even parents, for financial assistance. How realistic is it that not even Ralph Angel asks Charley for money?

This sounds more like a stereotype that's been accepted as truth versus what actually happens in families. 

Everything about this show is just breathtaking. From the music to the family dynamic; the story is so beautifully captured and familiar.

[topanga]

10 hours ago, Dee said:

I think Nova's major issue with Charley was that she was using her money to overcompensate for her extended absence.

The first time Nova openly exhibits her irritation at Charley is when Charley makes it clear she's forgotten the (very old & very southern) tradition of purchasing, and preparing, live seafood. Prior to that, Nova is stilted yet cooperative, toward her sister (as is Ralph Angel), but not openly contemptuous. It isn't until Charley hires the caterers (outsiders) to a very private family function (after absentmindedly complimenting her mother's flower arrangement then unwittingly steamrolling her sibs in the funeral director's office) that Nova loses her cool.

Nova views Charley's ostentatious displays of wealth as a means of taking charge (after years of being MIA) instead of genuinely grieving and acting as team player to plan Ernest's funeral.

What Nova doesn't realize is that her sister is using her money as a shield and a security blanket. Charley feels super guilty for not visiting her family (especially her Dad) as much as she should have, so she uses her money to free everyone up to focus less on the mundane particulars of the funeral process and more on their grief. Charley's also been inundated with reminders of how little she knew of her Dad, and a family who knew him so well that their preparation for his funeral bordered on perfunctory, so she carelessly insists on monetary solutions because it's the only thing she feels (has major value) that she has can contribute.

But wasn't Nova haggling with the funeral director about the price of the funeral? If she were really that rich, she wouldn't argue about $500. I don't think Charley was overcompensating. I think she was trying to contribute in the only way she saw an opening.

 

1 hour ago, Dee said:

I listed all the funeral activities Charley asked about in the living room above, and none of them were so utterly important that it was necessary for her, in particular, to go about doing them; especially when it was much more economical for the family members who'd spent more time with Ernest, and thus knew him better (including Violet), to handle those tasks so they'd be completed with as little hassle as possible imo.

Charley was using the funeral arrangements to gauge her siblings emotional states, which was decidedly unfair and quite immature, considering the circumstances. If she wanted to know how Ralph Angel and Nova were feeling, about anything, she should've asked them outright instead of assuming they were excluding her. But because Charley doesn't have functioning relationships with her siblings, she doesn't see or treat them as anything other than athletes she needs to manage, instead of human beings who are grieving every bit as much as her.

Nova, clearly uncomfortable with Charley's return, made a concerted effort on the ride back from the mortuary, to inquire about Charley's emotional state, re: Davis. Charley hasn't made any such effort to any of her family (not even Micah). She's been so enveloped in her own cocoon of bitter regret and emotional self flagellation that she can't see beyond her own needs.

It's telling that, for all of Ralph Angel and Nova's misgivings about their sister, they've never delegitimized her grief or used what should be a time for familial solidarity as a forum to air petty grievances imo. 

Necessary? Maybe not. But Ernest was Charley's father, too. Even though she didn't know how to pick out fish, I would think that Nova, Ralph, or any of them would be considerate enough to include Charley in helping to plan her father's funeral--which is a big part of closure.

You make a good point that we haven't seen Charley reach out to Nova or Ralph Angel to see how they're doing emotionally. She and Micah seemed okay--I'd assumed they'd been talking about the incident with Davis.

[DearEvette]

13 hours ago, topanga said:

And this is quite a unique family in that Charley is ostracized for being wealthy, but we never see anyone hit her up for money. In the experience of every family I know, the one who "made it" is constantly solicited by cousins, siblings, even parents, for financial assistance. How realistic is it that not even Ralph Angel asks Charley for money?

 

I honestly don't think it is that unusual.  I think you get both types rather equally really.  If there are wide income disparities in families there are some families where there will be that one member who might hit up the rich one a lot.  Or it might work the other way where the rich one is always slipping the poor one some money unasked.  And there are families where the poorer ones see it is a matter of pride not to ask the rich ones for money. 

I could see that Ralph Angel has a well of pride.  Probably too much since he stole the money and immediately tried to give it to Vi as a way to pay her back for watching Blue.  You could tell in that instance that Ralph Angel would never ask Charley for money.

I also sense that all of this somehow plays into whatever is going in with the sibs.  My feeling is that Nova's outburst at Charley has way more to do that just trying to keep her out because she's been gone so long.  I feel that their mother situations and whatever relationship each one of them had with Ernest and is at the heart of it all.

[Dee]

Ernest was indeed also Charley's father, and she has a right to her grief. None of the characters denied her that.

However, she doesn't get to largely abandon her family, then waltz in during a tragedy and assume people (who are also grieving) are going to be ok with her using her money as a means of control and shorthand for emotional engagement. And there weren't any major tasks that needed her specific contributions. Charley didn't even know one of her father's very good longtime friends (Remy), so what could she add to the funeral program that Ralph Angel/Nova/Violet couldn't? If all she wanted was to participate, all she had to do was humble herself enough to essentially 'get in where she fit in.' As a manager of a star basketball player she should be well acquainted with the concept of team effort imo.

The kicker is, Charley had so little use for her family, including her father, that she wouldn't be there if Violet hadn't pressed Micah into rousing her from the bed once, Ernest took a turn for the worst. Her and Micah's whole world imploded in the previous few days and she couldn't even be bothered to contact her family for comfort or support.

So why then, are those who same people she has such little regard for, expected to meet her with open arms?

If there had been a few scenes of Charley trying to catch up with Auntie Violet and her siblings, or even seeing how Micah was doing in the aftermath, I'd be more charitable toward her attempts at reintegrating into her family.  You & I, as viewers, completely understand how devastated she is, but since she hasn't talked to her family, they have no idea what's going on with her (beyond the media) or even how long she and Micah are planning on staying.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Dee

[LoveIsJoy]

I'm a little lost on where Vi fits in.  Is she Ernest's sister?  Ralph Angel's mother?  Even though Micah called her Auntie Vi, I'm assuming she's a great aunt, and not Charley's sister.

[Dee]

Violet is, indeed, Ernest's sister.

[candall]

19 hours ago, Dee said:

However, she doesn't get to largely abandon her family, then waltz in during a tragedy and assume people (who are also grieving) are going to be ok with her using her money as a means of control and shorthand for emotional engagement.

Wow, you see Charley "waltzing in" and using her money as a means of control?

It just seems it would have been so easy to make Charley that person.  "Oh, let's take my rental.  It has AC."  "Daddy deserves the best.  Don't you have anything with platinum?"  "Where I live, we call this stuff 'sushi.' "

Arranging for caterers turned out to be a mistake, but when it was explained to her, she didn't offer any expensive = better argument at all.

 

Why is there justification for Nova handling funeral details without consulting Charley, but the reverse indicates a character flaw?  To me, Charley's trying and Nova has a little bit of a chip on her shoulder that doesn't have anything to do with the matter at hand.

Edited September 10, 2016 by candall

[Dee]

I never said I thought Charley was a snob, I said she was using her money to overcompensate for her guilt and her absence.

The first thing she deigns to do at the funeral parlor, is to steamroll Ralph Angel and Nova by offering to pay their share of the funeral expenses, in addition to her own, before she even has one personal conversation with them. Then she has the nerve to act like a petulant child, when Nova (and subsequently Ralph Angel) insist on equal payments.

That move, added to the fact that she was gone for years (with no plans to return in the foreseeable future), had no functional relationships with her siblings or memory of familial customs, yet still felt entitled to immediately be in everyone's good graces and expect free reign to buck generations of tradition; exhibited someone, to me, who had very little sense of self awareness.

Like, you can't be so devastated because your husband cheated that you can't/won't get out of bed, then also be angry at your family for being considerate enough to try and make things easier for you. And the point Nova was making in their argument, was that grief is a very private and an intensely personal matter that should be handled accordingly.

And how does Nova have a chip on her shoulder? She's the one who fiercely embraces Charley the moment she arrives at the hospital, then refuses to sell Charley out at work, and makes an effort at including Charley in the grieving process; despite the fact that the first thing Nova ever says about her sister, is that they aren't close.

Hollywood and Ralph Angel both express frustration and/or exasperation at Charley's headstrong antics while Violet implicitly agrees with Nova and Ralph Angel's handling of the smaller funeral arrangements and is noticeably silent in the aftermath of Nova's outburst, so Nova certainly isn't the only Bordelon (or Bordelon-adjacent) family member who feels Charley is overstepping.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Dee

[Neurochick]

On September 8, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Empress1 said:

Since the siblings have different mothers, I wondered if they were raised together in the same house. Charley's mother is distant and it seems like the other two don't like her. I'm also wondering if the show will highlight the light skinned/dark skinned difference between the sibs - light skinned Charley leads a life of affluence and the other two do not. The show also made a point to highlight that Charley is out of touch with her southern upbringing; she didn't know how to pick the best fish or about the customs surrounding the service.

I don't know if they're going to go into the light skinned/dark skinned issue (hope not because it's been done to death).  I was annoyed with Nova because here she is sleeping with a married man and has the nerve to throw shade at her sister.  Not cool.

I think the conflict between Nova and Charley might have to do with the Southern trope of one sibling leaving the South, while the other sibling remains.  This was the huge issue in the play "A Streetcar Named Desire."  Stella was the sister to left home, while Blanche, the sister who remained, had to deal with her parents dying as well as the family home, Belle Rive being sold off to creditors.  In a lot of stories, as well as real life, there is a resentment between the siblings, as the one who stayed might feel they were denied a life because they did stay.  

BTW, Nova wasn't 100% right about the repass.  I have been to some where the food was catered; some people have to work more than one job and don't have time to cook; but Nova was right that you don't normally get servers to do the work.

[candall]

Quote

but Nova was right that you don't normally get servers to do the work.

I was confused about this--was she saying it was the tradition that they, the immediate family, did the serving? 

 

Where I grew up, your church congregation put together a meal for everyone after the graveside part was over.  The first time I was the principal bereaved, (mother,) I was dreading another step to get through, but it turned out to be the easiest part of the day, and nice.

Then when my grandmother died, my father insisted he didn't want anyone going to the trouble of organizing a post-burial dinner . . . which essentially meant I ended up running home and scrambling around getting him and the other mourner relatives fed.  Ha, I would have happily whipped out a credit card if I could have paid some professionals to handle it.

So my experience is that you really just want to sit down and have someone else be responsible for that part of things.  Out of love is preferable, but out of MasterCard is fine, too.

 

[P.S. After living in cities for years, I'm shocked at how infrequently anyone thinks about feeding bereaved people.  Any time I've taken over a ham or a pot of lentil soup (Vegetarians!) people are amazed, and then so grateful they don't have to call Pizza Hut.  I guess it's a "country" thing, which is a pity.]

[Empress1]

57 minutes ago, candall said:

I was confused about this--was she saying it was the tradition that they, the immediate family, did the serving? 

 

Where I grew up, your church congregation put together a meal for everyone after the graveside part was over.  The first time I was the principal bereaved, (mother,) I was dreading another step to get through, but it turned out to be the easiest part of the day, and nice.

Then when my grandmother died, my father insisted he didn't want anyone going to the trouble of organizing a post-burial dinner . . . which essentially meant I ended up running home and scrambling around getting him and the other mourner relatives fed.  Ha, I would have happily whipped out a credit card if I could have paid some professionals to handle it.

So my experience is that you really just want to sit down and have someone else be responsible for that part of things.  Out of love is preferable, but out of MasterCard is fine, too.

 

[P.S. After living in cities for years, I'm shocked at how infrequently anyone thinks about feeding bereaved people.  Any time I've taken over a ham or a pot of lentil soup (Vegetarians!) people are amazed, and then so grateful they don't have to call Pizza Hut.  I guess it's a "country" thing, which is a pity.]

I've spent my entire life in cities and take food to the bereaved, and have received it when I'm the bereaved. When my grandparents died, there was more food than we could eat - we were spreading it around the family, encouraging guests to take it with them, etc.

My experience with repasts is like yours. I can't think of a repast I've attended where the bereaved did the serving.

[BuddhaBelly]

In my family sometimes the bereaved does serve. I think the distinction was more Charley hired strangers to come to the house to serve. These weren't extended family members, church members, friends, etc. but strangers. I would hate that.

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, BuddhaBelly said:

In my family sometimes the bereaved does serve. I think the distinction was more Charley hired strangers to come to the house to serve. These weren't extended family members, church members, friends, etc. but strangers. I would hate that.

Right, that's what I meant.  Charley hired people to do the serving, normally members of the church do that.  

 

3 hours ago, candall said:

[P.S. After living in cities for years, I'm shocked at how infrequently anyone thinks about feeding bereaved people.  Any time I've taken over a ham or a pot of lentil soup (Vegetarians!) people are amazed, and then so grateful they don't have to call Pizza Hut.  I guess it's a "country" thing, which is a pity.]

 I've lived in a city all my life too and I've always seen people always bring food to the bereaved.

[DearEvette]

7 hours ago, BuddhaBelly said:

In my family sometimes the bereaved does serve. I think the distinction was more Charley hired strangers to come to the house to serve. These weren't extended family members, church members, friends, etc. but strangers. I would hate that.

 

Yeah, I took Nova's comment to that the 'we' meant the community, extended family  as opposed to paid servers.

And ditto with the feeding folks.  I am city born and bred and the minute family, friends, church congregation hear someone has died, they start showing up with food and offering child care. 

[topanga]

On 9/10/2016 at 1:31 PM, Dee said:

I never said I thought Charley was a snob, I said she was using her money to overcompensate for her guilt and her absence.

The first thing she deigns to do at the funeral parlor, is to steamroll Ralph Angel and Nova by offering to pay their share of the funeral expenses, in addition to her own, before she even has one personal conversation with them. Then she has the nerve to act like a petulant child, when Nova (and subsequently Ralph Angel) insist on equal payments.

That move, added to the fact that she was gone for years (with no plans to return in the foreseeable future), had no functional relationships with her siblings or memory of familial customs, yet still felt entitled to immediately be in everyone's good graces and expect free reign to buck generations of tradition; exhibited someone, to me, who had very little sense of self awareness.

Like, you can't be so devastated because your husband cheated that you can't/won't get out of bed, then also be angry at your family for being considerate enough to try and make things easier for you. And the point Nova was making in their argument, was that grief is a very private and an intensely personal matter that should be handled accordingly.

And how does Nova have a chip on her shoulder? She's the one who fiercely embraces Charley the moment she arrives at the hospital, then refuses to sell Charley out at work, and makes an effort at including Charley in the grieving process; despite the fact that the first thing Nova ever says about her sister, is that they aren't close.

Hollywood and Ralph Angel both express frustration and/or exasperation at Charley's headstrong antics while Violet implicitly agrees with Nova and Ralph Angel's handling of the smaller funeral arrangements and is noticeably silent in the aftermath of Nova's outburst, so Nova certainly isn't the only Bordelon (or Bordelon-adjacent) family member who feels Charley is overstepping.

In a good story, no one is 100% right or wrong. So far, Charley has been presented as the "bad" sibling--she left Louisiana, she never comes home, she throws money at problems, she doesn't know how to buy live fish anymore. I don't believe she's the villain in this situation, but since we haven't been given any background on the children's childhood, all I can do is speculate on why Charley left home and why she's stayed away so long.

And I disagree that she steamrolled Nova and Ralph Angel at the funeral home. Nova was arguing with the funeral director over the cost of the funeral. When they finally settled on a price, that's when Charley stepped up to pay for it. If she only wanted to throw money at the problem, she would have offered her credit card the minute the funeral director quoted them a price. She would have told Nova "don't worry about it I've got it" when Nova negotiated for a lower price. 

[Dee]

See, I don't think Charley's been presented as the "bad" sibling, per se.

I feel she's been portrayed as emotionally complex as the others and I truly believe Charley loves her family and had her reasons (legitimate or not) for remaining in LA, but it wouldn't have killed Ava to sacrifice a couple of Ralph Angel's scenes to give Charley and Micah a little emotional breathing room.

Ava's script didn't allow her any family scenes prior to the funeral arrangements which hurt the character imo. I get Ava wanted Charley to come across as dazed and disoriented, and that QS is likely saving those family bonding moments for later, so that when she and Ralph Angel and/or Nova inevitably fight, the scenes will be that much more powerful, but it doesn't serve the narrative well imo.

Greenleaf had similar problems in that regard, where its large cast was largely separate for the majority of the season, until the plot demanded they interact. After the first couple of episodes, Queen Sugar seems to totally be following their blueprint, just with slightly upgraded production values.

Quote

And I disagree that she steamrolled Nova and Ralph Angel at the funeral home. Nova was arguing with the funeral director over the cost of the funeral. When they finally settled on a price, that's when Charley stepped up to pay for it. If she only wanted to throw money at the problem, she would have offered her credit card the minute the funeral director quoted them a price. She would have told Nova "don't worry about it I've got it" when Nova negotiated for a lower price. 

I'm sure it was a well intended notion, but it's awfully presumptuous to extend such a generous offer without consulting them first.  I would've been a lot more sympathetic to her offer, if it had been just extended to Ralph Angel, who she, presumably, knows is fresh out of prison and is struggling to find work. But by including Nova, she's implying they're charity cases which is all kinds of foul.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Dee

[stagmania]

I just caught up with this show, and I really love it. In only two episodes the universe, tone and family dynamics already feel so firmly established, and it's just beautiful to look at. Obviously we're just getting to know them, but all the characters seem complex and multifaceted, and it seems that the writing takes pains to avoid black and white situations or paint anyone as wholly right or wrong in a given interaction. The cast has great chemistry and I'm already feeling the family bond (and the kid playing Blue may be the most adorable child actor I've seen in an age). Coming from a big messy family with lots of siblings with different parents, beliefs and income/success disparities, the relationship dynamics feel spot on to me. Very much looking forward to more.

On the subject of this particular episode, the fights and tensions that sprung up around planning the funeral felt very real. All the siblings were trying to do their best, but there will inevitably be clashes over something they all take so personally. I appreciated that none of them were being painted as wrong or ill-intentioned, but rather making understandable mistakes in their attempts to help and their efforts to cope. 

[candall]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

 

And ditto with the feeding folks.  I am city born and bred and the minute family, friends, church congregation hear someone has died, they start showing up with food and offering child care. 

Lol, okay, okay, I retract my comment about city people not bringing food.  I spent my 30's and 40's in DC and my friends were all imports from other places and largely without church affiliation.  It really was a Big Deal when I showed up with food to mark a loss, so I guess I made too broad an assumption about "country ways" versus "city ways."

I'm happy to know the gesture is more commonplace than I thought.

[LydiaMoon1]

13 hours ago, Dee said:

See, I don't think Charley's been presented as the "bad" sibling, per se.

I feel she's been portrayed as emotionally complex as the others and I truly believe Charley loves her family and had her reasons (legitimate or not) for remaining in LA.

Agreed.  The time the show spent on her life in LA simply established for me that she was an infrequent visitor because she was busy building her marriage and their business.  I never took it as a sign that she didn't love her father or her siblings.  I just thought it showed that the glamour and complexity of her own life consumed her time and energy.

[topanga]

4 hours ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

Agreed.  The time the show spent on her life in LA simply established for me that she was an infrequent visitor because she was busy building her marriage and their business.  I never took it as a sign that she didn't love her father or her siblings.  I just thought it showed that the glamour and complexity of her own life consumed her time and energy.

True. And we don't know what happened to any of them during their childhoods. Maybe someone did or said something to Charley to make her feel unwanted, and that's what kept her away. 

Have Charley and Aunt Vi even talked to each other? I sense a story there. 

18 hours ago, stagmania said:

I just caught up with this show, and I really love it. In only two episodes the universe, tone and family dynamics already feel so firmly established, and it's just beautiful to look at. Obviously we're just getting to know them, but all the characters seem complex and multifaceted, and it seems that the writing takes pains to avoid black and white situations or paint anyone as wholly right or wrong in a given interaction. The cast has great chemistry and I'm already feeling the family bond (and the kid playing Blue may be the most adorable child actor I've seen in an age). Coming from a big messy family with lots of siblings with different parents, beliefs and income/success disparities, the relationship dynamics feel spot on to me. Very much looking forward to more.

 

I agree!