All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[Nidratime]

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I expect Rory will have the attitude that if Logan couldn't be bothered to dump Odette for her benefit before the pregnancy, which he made clear when he responded "That's the dynastic plan" to Rory asking him if he really intended to marry Odette, the fact that he would be willing to dump her once he learned of the baby and be with her out of obligation would not mean much. Rory would want to be chosen for herself, not out of obligation, and Logan already failed that test.

How did he fail that test, when he proposed to her ten years ago without any hint of a baby, and she turned him down.

[NumberCruncher]

1 minute ago, Nidratime said:

How did he fail that test, when he proposed to her ten years ago without any hint of a baby, and she turned him down.

This is exactly the problem with ASP expecting the audience to completely ignore S7 because it skews how they view are supposed to interpret the revival. 

[amensisterfriend]

This is exactly the problem with ASP expecting the audience to completely ignore S7 because it skews how they view are supposed to interpret the revival.

Exactly. She's not only ignoring plot points like Logan's proposal, but the relative amount of growth and maturity he showed that season and his continued willingness to carve a path for himself that was separate from his father's. I'm not much of a Logan fan, but this revival was a real regression for him---away from the Logan I'd started to tolerate and occasionally genuinely like and right back to the Logan I couldn't stand. 

[LeafontheWind]

6 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

How did he fail that test, when he proposed to her ten years ago without any hint of a baby, and she turned him down.

To me, he failed that test when she asked him if he was really going to marry Odette and he said yes. If he had wanted a relationship with Rory, then he wouldn't be marrying another woman, no matter how profitable it may be for his dynasty or how hurt he was by her rejection 10 years prior. Rory has no right to be upset that he is in another relationship because she did turn down his proposal. However, if Logan really wanted to be with Rory, then he wouldn't be getting married to someone else. 

This part of the revival really bugs me because I am not sure how we are supposed to read their relationship. Are they soulmates who missed their chance and are too stubborn to admit it to even themselves? Or are they two people who have great chemistry but aren't meant to be together? I know how I saw it, but I am not sure how ASP meant it.

5 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

 

Exactly. She's not only ignoring plot points like Logan's proposal, but the relative amount of growth and maturity he showed that season and his continued willingness to carve a path for himself that was separate from his father's. I'm not much of a Logan fan, but this revival was a real regression for him---away from the Logan I'd started to tolerate and occasionally genuinely like and right back to the Logan I couldn't stand. 

Amen sister friend! My feelings exactly!

[msani19]

49 minutes ago, starri said:

She's a grown woman, stop calling her "Ace," you douchecanoe.

I'm laughing and laughing and laughing! Cause I totally agree. It's supposed to by cute & we've known each other for years kind of a thing. It's nothing of the sort. 

[backhometome]

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General question for you guys: Do you feel like Rory and Logan were genuinely in love during this revival and just unable to say so and act on it for various reasons?

I dont know if they were in love but I do think they have strong feelings for each other. I dont really get why Logan is with his fiance or think he is into her. He clearly loves Rory imo. And she like Lorelai said "cant quit him".

She really has no excuse not telling him about the baby. I dont care if he is married he deserves to know. He is not abusive or a criminal. Those are the only reasons I can see someone keeping a child from their parent. 

[HeySandyStrange]

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Maybe it was just a question of the actors being available, but I can't help but think all of the musical stuff was time they could have used for Lane

Seriously this. Lane is one of my favorite characters and I'm one of the few people who don't mind Zach and her together. I get that they were never main characters but Lane/Mrs.Kim/The Band had some significant background storylines in the original series so I'm a little surprised we didn't even get one scene of any of them interacting without a Gilmore Girl present. And, hate to say it, but I don't think Keiko or any of them are THAT busy not to include them a little more.

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Oh, dear, so it sounds like another season is a much stronger possibility than I'd thought. After all, there have to be some married or engaged men who Rory hasn't slept with yet, so there are still more stories to tell! ;)

Lordy don't give them ideas! They'll have Rory and the not yet divorced Doyle become writing partners and get into a compromising position...or maybe Rory will just "happen" to be in Scranton and Dean (or a Dean stand-in ala Tristin 2.0) will meet and he'll forget his children and pregnant wife at home. Or Kirk will be looking all sexy to her, chasing that pig of his lol.

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 Jess certainly doesn't deserve that kind of bullshit.  If he were smart, he'd take a page out of Dean's book and find a nice girl to settle down with rather than pining away for Lorelai version 2.0.

I don't even like Jess but I want him to run, run far, far away! Preferably into the arms of some cool, smart, successful on her own terms lady who got it together without a fancy Ivy League degree and people catering to her every whim. Maybe someone who looks a lot like Mandy Moore:)

So, because I haven't rambled enough...are we to take it that, if ASP had finished out the series, she would've ended it on those four words and Rory pregnant? Was it going to end up with Rory pregnant, single, and seemingly scared, or pregnant, in a relationship and mostly happy about it? Because if it was the former, like it was in the revival, I don't see how THAT would've worked all those years ago. Even if Rory was happy, I don't see how that was supposed to be ASP's preferred ending for freshly graduated, ambitious Rory.

One more thought...Logan and Rory were having unprotected sex?!?! Considering Logan is sleeping with Odette and who knows how many other women, protected or otherwise, that is just irresponsible and ignorant on both their parts. Two Ivy League educations wasted right there. Rory should be glad she didn't pick up some nasty STD along with the pregnancy.

[starri]

Why do we think she isn't going to tell him?  Like I said, it's hard to tell how much time passed in each episode, but she'd only slept with him once since she "didn't" go back to Stars Hollow and she wasn't showing yet, so she hadn't know very long.

For however annoyed I got at Rory, Lorelai would always have been the first person she told about that kind of news.  Not Lane, not Paris, not Emily, not even the babydaddy.

[tankgirl73]

Those Trojan Man jokes stuck, so I can't presume they were unprotected. Unless they were drunk, like when L&L had that little scare way back when. No... birth control fails sometimes. No birth control is 100% effective. It can be that simple.

And indeed, could be a deliberate nod to the abandoned maybe-baby storyline for L&L with the surrogacy/fertility clinic thing. Irony of ironies, they're looking into surrogacies when Rory goes and gets pregnant when she was actually trying not to.

I think whether or not she decides to tell Logan is deliberately left hanging. It's clear that it's a new thing -- she knew when she went to talk to Christopher, and not before then. I think her "3pm? ok" phone call was a dr appointment. So I think we're within a month or so of her knowing. She hasn't told ANYONE, not even Lane. She tells her mom first. We have literally NO IDEA what happens next.

But that doesn't mean we should assume that it's a given that she doesn't tell him. That she doesn't want him involved as her partner raising the child? Yes, we can assume that, that's what the whole conversation with her dad was about. But until we officially hear otherwise, she is equally likely to tell him as to not tell him. Especially knowing what she knows about Luke and Anna and April, there's no way that -- once Luke knows too -- he wouldn't rip her a new one if she was planning to not tell Logan.

[amensisterfriend]

One more thought...Logan and Rory were having unprotected sex?!?! Considering Logan is sleeping with Odette and who knows how many other women, protected or otherwise, that is just irresponsible and ignorant on both their parts. Two Ivy League educations wasted right there. Rory should be glad she didn't pick up some nasty STD along with the pregnancy.

Maybe they're saving that lovely little reveal for the next installment ;) Seriously, a lot of the Gilmore girls characters have always seemed strangely clueless about the existence of birth control.  

So, because I haven't rambled enough...are we to take it that, if ASP had finished out the series, she would've ended it on those four words and Rory pregnant? Was it going to end up with Rory pregnant, single, and seemingly scared, or pregnant, in a relationship and mostly happy about it? Because if it was the former, like it was in the revival, I don't see how THAT would've worked all those years ago. Even if Rory was happy, I don't see how that was supposed to be ASP's preferred ending for freshly graduated, ambitious Rory.

I was thinking about this as well! I get that AS-P really likes it when things come full circle, but was that really her dream ending all along for a newly graduated Rory who had all these dreams and goals for a lofty career? Would she have had Rory in a serious relationship at the time and, if so, with who? I could see her having Rory sleep with Jess right after breaking up with Logan at some point in S7 (or, hey, maybe while she was still with Logan; Rory isn't overly hung up on that sort of thing!) and leaving us to wonder whose baby it was or...*shudder* Honestly, I'm not dismissing anyone's very valid complaints about S7, but this revival has had the unintended effect of having me appreciate that season and particularly its ending more than ever before.

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Oh, dear, so it sounds like another season is a much stronger possibility than I'd thought. After all, there have to be some married or engaged men who Rory hasn't slept with yet, so there are still more stories to tell! ;)

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Lordy don't give them ideas! They'll have Rory and the not yet divorced Doyle become writing partners and get into a compromising position...or maybe Rory will just "happen" to be in Scranton and Dean (or a Dean stand-in ala Tristin 2.0) will meet and he'll forget his children and pregnant wife at home. Or Kirk will be looking all sexy to her, chasing that pig of his lol.

Ha! I want so much to say that none of this could ever possibly happen, but...  

[shron17]

13 minutes ago, NumberCruncher said:

This is exactly the problem with ASP expecting the audience to completely ignore S7 because it skews how they view are supposed to interpret the revival. 

Logan's proposal to Rory was almost 10 years ago.  It seems possible after a year or two when his business venture in San Francisco didn't work out he went back to the family empire in order to maintain his lifestyle.  Even Christopher was back working for the family biz.  Then Logan met a nice heiress his family approved of and asked her to marry him, but had enough residual attraction to Rory to invite her to stay when she showed up in London.  Rory had learned to depend on Logan for emotional support and business expertise at Yale and it felt perfectly natural to call him when she needed help

45 minutes ago, LeafontheWind said:

To me, he failed that test when she asked him if he was really going to marry Odette and he said yes. If he had wanted a relationship with Rory, then he wouldn't be marrying another woman, no matter how profitable it may be for his dynasty or how hurt he was by her rejection 10 years prior. Rory has no right to be upset that he is in another relationship because she did turn down his proposal. However, if Logan really wanted to be with Rory, then he wouldn't be getting married to someone else. 

I agree.  It seems awful not to tell him but almost as bad to derail his entire life.

[starri]

5 minutes ago, shron17 said:

I agree.  It seems awful not to tell him but almost as bad to derail his entire life.

Derail his life how?  By telling him he has to be responsible for the baby he had a 50% hand in creating?

Edited November 26, 2016 by starri

[shron17]

1 minute ago, starri said:

Derail his life how?  By telling him he has to be responsible for the baby he had a 50% hand in creating?

Well he seemed pretty determined to marry Odette, who probably wouldn't take kindly to finding out he'd been sleeping with his ex-girlfriend.  I know, he is responsible and should have thought of that sooner.  I just see how Rory might be tempted to have the baby and let Logan's life go on as previously scheduled.  It's sort of the same thing Lorelai tried to do for Christopher by refusing to marry him at 16.

[starri]

Just now, shron17 said:

It's sort of the same thing Lorelai tried to do for Christopher by refusing to marry him at 16.

I don't have a super-good memory of the nuances of the backstory, but I'd always had the impression that Christopher was a regular, if infrequent presence in Rory's life.  From what I remember of "Christopher Returns" for example, he wasn't a complete stranger to her.  In fact, she seemed pretty crushed when he left again.

Now, his parents were shit on toast, but that's for another thread.

5 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Well he seemed pretty determined to marry Odette, who probably wouldn't take kindly to finding out he'd been sleeping with his ex-girlfriend.  I know, he is responsible and should have thought of that sooner.

Rory didn't make him cheat on Odette.  He did that willingly.

[tankgirl73]

I don't think anyone is saying that Logan *deserves* to have his life continue un-derailed. He is certainly 100% part of the whole debacle.

I think the question is whether *Rory* thinks he deserves it. As confused as she is, she could very well decide to let sleeping dogs lie, as it were... to forgive him his part in it and let him have the life *she* thinks he deserves.

I'm in the "she'll probably tell him" camp, but I can also see her thinking this. Not that it *would* be right, but that she might think it so.

[shron17]

I know Rory didn't make him cheat on Odette.  That's not what I'm saying at all.  Yes, Christopher knew about Rory and was there when she was born.  All I mean is that Rory might be tempted to not tell Logan so that he could go on with the life he had planned in the same way Lorelai refused to marry Christopher so that he could finish school and go to Princeton the way he/his parents planned instead of getting a job.

[junienmomo]

 I look at the LLC triangle and the RLJ triangle and their similarities as a motif, and not a rehash. I think that's what the Paladino's intended.

None of the three younger adults is like their counterpart in the older group. I don't see that they are in any way forced to re-visit or re-create the mistakes of the previous generation. That's why I think as a motif this is really powerful.

Think about it in terms of the generations.  The social and familial influences on Lorelai  were very different than the same influences on Rory. 

Lorelai  became an adult at a time when single motherhood was becoming OK. Not quite Murphy Brown OK, but getting there. She had the very negative influence of her parents, who were judging the situation based on their own generation's morals.

Rory became an adult in a time of very open sexual morals. Unless she revisits the out of character parenting that Lorelai showed when Rory dropped out of Yale, her mother is likely to be a supportive grandparent. 

 I like the idea of another round of episodes in which Rory is the person making the hard decisions that her mother had to make, but this time within the context of open sexuality and acceptance into a social circle as high as Logan's, and with her father's and possibly inherited grandfather's money to be able to support her.

 Color that with the fact that she still hasn't decided on a stable career, and that the father clearly prefers her, but may have an obligation to his family.  That is going to make for interesting plots. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by junienmomo

[msani19]

2 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

General question for you guys: Do you feel like Rory and Logan were genuinely in love during this revival and just unable to say so and act on it for various reasons? I didn't quite read it that way, but a lot of people did, so I'd be curious to hear feedback! 

 

Genuinely in love? No. I didn't get that. Nostalgic? Yes. Easy? Yes. Predictable? Yes. Real love? NOPE. If Logan was in love with Rory and unable to break away from family obligations to express it, then he's a pathetic punk, who needs to grow some balls and she doesn't need him in her life. If Rory was in love with Logan, and afraid to break up with Mr. "I  Can't Remember His Name" cause she didn't want to be alone, then she's pathetic (for the record, I think she's pathetic. Full stop.)

My more generous read on the situation (wine helps, let's see how much...), is that they are both still trying to figure this love and relationship stuff out. It's hard. Sometimes we do stupid stuff along the way. Sometimes we do things that we know are stupid and will end badly, but we end up doing it anyway. Sometimes we end up doing things that we could never expect we'd do, yet we end up there anyway. Is that what's happening with Rory? She seems pretty aware that they have this idiotic  "Vegas rule" going on and trying to act like she's cool with it. She's clearly not. 

That's my wine-induced, more generous read of Logan/Rory. 

[amensisterfriend]

If Logan was in love with Rory and unable to break away from family obligations to express it, then he's a pathetic punk, who needs to grow some balls and she doesn't need him in her life. If Rory was in love with Logan, and afraid to break up with Mr. "I  Can't Remember His Name" cause she didn't want to be alone,

then she's pathetic (for the record, I think she's pathetic. Full stop.)

I could not agree more! And the bolded part has me cracking up out loud :)

I think Summer was least favorite of the episodes overall. It's partly because of that interminable, insanely self-indulgent musical! 

[HeySandyStrange]

10 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

Color that with the fact that she still hasn't decided on a stable career, and that the father clearly prefers her, but may have an obligation to his family.  That is going to make for interesting plots. 

See, I would say that Logan may be more attached to Rory then his intended, but for the fact that in the beginning it is implied he had more the Rory and possibly Odette warming his bed. Unless we were supposed to take it the Odette was the other woman/women and he'd rather Rory believe it was other nondescript friends with benefits. Either way, I agree with @msani19  and don't see any great love story between them. I think Logan is probably not happy, deep down, that he didn't break away from his family and make it on his own and now isn't really his own man. Rory...she doesn't have any real coping skills and has a history of running back to her various exes when the going gets tough.

I will say, if we do get a follow up season and Odette gets clued into the side piece baby  daddy  drama, I hope she is totally cool as a cucumber and blasé about it. I can't believe if Logan is going into this marriage like a business deal she isn't of a similarly like mind about it. Let someone come out of this drama looking level-headed and practical, if nothing else.

[backhometome]

Forgot to mention that I missed the opening theme song from the OG show. I guess they cut credits for more time but I missed it. 

[photo fox]

4 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

General question for you guys: Do you feel like Rory and Logan were genuinely in love during this revival and just unable to say so and act on it for various reasons? I didn't quite read it that way, but a lot of people did, so I'd be curious to hear feedback! 

 

I absolutely read it that way.  Maybe not full-on in love, but definitely I think they were both wanting a real relationship with each other.  I think Rory was doing such a great job convincing Logan (and herself) that all she wanted was a Vegas agreement that Logan thought she wouldn't be open to anything more.  (And he was probably gunshy after having his earlier proposal rejected.)  On the opposite side, I think Rory is so used to the confident Logan who goes after what he wants that she assumed he'd fight for her.  Since they seemed to be revisiting so many old themes, I kept expecting an "I can't do casual, I'm a boyfriend-girl" type of  declaration from one of them, that would trigger the same kind of "okay, I'll do it" reply from the other.

I really enjoyed the revival overall, even though I have nitpicks, but I really HATED what they did to Logan.  Not even the cheating so much - since we never saw Odette, I can fanwank that it was a relationship born of convenience and maybe she doesn't care - but it really bothers me that they had Logan back working for his dad again and drinking on the family dime like the end of Season 7 never happened.  He was a smart guy, and by all accounts when he was in London before he was a (perhaps surprisingly) hard worker.  In my mind, he had gone of to San Francisco and become successful in his own right.  Disappointing.

[Lady Grump]

This revival helped me realize what a shitty, shitty person I was sixteen to ten years ago. Because I used to love these characters.

Now? I hate-watched the whole thing.

The Life and Death Brigade? At the end there? It was like an evil cherry on top. Fuck those guys. Gross.

And Shut UP, Lorelei! Gah. HOW! Did I ever like her!? I'm pretty sure I feel some sort of way about ASP, now, too.

Yeah, I was cringing through this. Can't un-see certain things -- including the terrible acting.

This time around, I didn't feel welcome in Stars Hollow -- and feel stupid for not realizing, sooner, that I was never welcome.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Lady Grump

[zxy556575]

2 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

I will say, if we do get a follow up season and Odette gets clued into the side piece baby  daddy  drama, I hope she is totally cool as a cucumber and blasé about it. I can't believe if Logan is going into this marriage like a business deal she isn't of a similarly like mind about it. Let someone come out of this drama looking level-headed and practical, if nothing else.

That's a hopeful way to think of it, which I think I will adopt.

I was feeling very sorry for the unseen Odette and imagining what I would do if I were in Rory's place. I'd be very tempted to tell Odette if Logan didn't do so, honestly as a kindness, because of the inevitable destruction it would cause to find out after 15 years of marriage and three kids. If Odette still wants to proceed with the marriage knowing the truth, at least her eyes are open. She'd also need to be part of the parenting equation if Logan wants to have any sort of relationship with his child.

My biggest wish for Rory and the show? Her baby is a boy.

Edited November 26, 2016 by lordonia

[EarlGreyTea]

The issue with the revival (for me) was that the character growth that should have happened during all the interim years did not happen because it needed to be shown onscreen to create conflict for these 4 new episodes. Exhibit A: Lorelai and Luke not being married. She had wanted the whole package for the entire series, and we're supposed to believe they weren't at least engaged all these years?

Exhibit B: No other kids besides April and Rory. My own personal fanon had Lorelai and Luke having a son together. I would have loved to seen Lorelai with a son. How would she have treated him differently than Rory? What would their relationship be like? What would his name be? Having said that, we dodged a bullet, because child actors can grate, and given how incredibly twee ASP can be, the kid would have probably been TJ levels of obnoxious.

It seemed clear to me that ASP chose not to acknowledge that S7 existed (Logan's character growth, Rory joining the Obama press pool, etc.) which was a damn shame. "You've given me everything I need" was the better ending. Who'd have thought so many of us would now prefer S7 to the revival?

I missed the opening credits like crazy. I was looking forward to seeing how they updated them.

Edited November 26, 2016 by EarlGreyTea

[Lady Calypso]

For all that I've complained about season 7, at least the good thing coming out of this revival is that I'll be able to happily watch season 7 now. The fact that ASP deliberately ignored season 7's existence besides mentioning Lorelai's marriage to Christopher (and that was just as a snide 'joke') is just ridiculous. We can't forget that season 7 existed. But guess what? It still treated the characters way better than this shitty revival. It gave Emily a good arc, sure, but at the expense of Ed Hermann, and subsequently Richard, dying. That's it. I would love to know what are the actual good moments of the revival, mostly the ones that actually helped the characters in some way.

Also, remembering that ASP had the last four words planned since before the series ended, how differently would it have been if ASP stayed on the show an extra year and Rory had to utter those lines after graduating college? 

[FrumiusManxome]

There were a lot of things that disappointed me, but overall I enjoyed it. I really wasn't expecting much.

Something that really stood out for me watching this was how much I wish we had way more evidence of Rory's writings back in the OG series. I've never bought that she was such a strong writer. And while I know that there's no set age for having it all together, I think my real issue with her story so far is that I think Rory is floundering because (just like Mitchum said back in the day) she doesn't have 'it'. It's not because print journalism is dying. It's not because everyone has it hard these days. It's because Rory Gilmore was never as great as everyone said and that this always realistically, was her trajectory. Not the pregnancy part, but having to concede the idea of being some world renowned journalist, or even a fairly well known one and settle in Stars Hallow (or anywhere really) and taking some other job. To me the revival had this undercurrent of, Rory Gilmore is just going through a rough patch, but really I think that she was just getting exactly what was always coming to her. 

She had an absolutely horrific attitude the entire revival. Like in Spring where she had the gall to turn her nose up at a decent, paying job when she had absolutely nothing and then waste their time because she bought into her own hype. Really pissed me off. Any job when you have nothing at all to go on is a good job, Rory. And she barely tried to do anything to right her situations. She didn't break things off with Logan (until it was kind of too late, and even then they had their last hurrah) or attempt to get a commitment, nor did she break up with Paul. The career stuff was kind of something, but she didn't even seem to be really trying that hard. Like I said before she snubbed a potential source of income, then bombed the interview when she was lucky they even wanted her after what (to me) seems like a dismal track record.

The book thing with Naomi Shropshire was a boring plot to me, and it was something, but it was an expansion on a fluff piece (I'm assuming). This could just be me, but when she finally got her interview, and she told them she was expanding on that they seemed kind of dismayed, as if they were expecting something different or more. I'm not knocking her attempting to do it since it would (eventually and probably) have made her some money, but it was so 'more of the same'. And right after she decided to swallow her pride and ask Mitchum to help her out, she basically spits in his face since she dropped the line article because she wasn't 'feeling it' when it could have led to a potential position. And I know Mitchum isn't all that great a guy, has millions, and does this all the time for people but he kind of stuck his neck out for her with the interview and she blows the whole thing by 'accepting' a job and then dropping it without so much as a phone call to them (I'm assuming). She felt so utterly sheltered from consequences until Fall, where she (still) has nothing and now she's pregnant. Felt like a realistic ending for the story of Rory Gilmore, but I'm still upset since I did want a definitive happy ending. 

Logan was a waste of time. Team Jess over here, but I did warm up to Logan over time. So I felt screwed both ways. No Jess closure, irrational Rory pining, and nothing to go on from a Rory/Jess shipping pov outside of headcanons (I mean, what else is new? but I'm still mad). But, I also had to sit through all of this buildup/screentime with Logan as 'the one' despite the obvious regression and ickiness (for Rory as well) only for them not be together anyways. 

Lorelai and Luke were a mess of unfinished, dropped storylines. The fact that they weren't married was ridiculous, but the fact that they didn't have kids nor had talked about it seriously in all this time was even worse. I firmly believe Lorelai needed the time alone to truly examine her life. That was fine with me. But, I hated all the manufactured drama around it. ASP couldn't just leave them alone and let Lorelai be the calm inside the storm between Emily and Rory. That being said I enjoyed where their story ended. 

Emily was a gem. Kelly Bishop nailed it. I hated the weird running gag of the 'foreign' family. But, I loved where she ended up. 

Stars Hallow Musical was garbage. Didn't care at all at any point. Summer was the weakest episode. 

Paris was still Paris. I absolutely adore her. I'm choosing to believe that she and Doyle get back together because I think that they were perfect for each other. And I think it was dumb in general, that they're divorcing because Doyle has too big a head? Like it happens, I'm sure, it just didn't fit to me. Much like Paris' job, but I digress. 

Jess deserves better than Rory, that's for damn sure. I know it seems unbelievable, but Dean is proof that it is possible to get over a Gilmore. 

More thoughts will come later I'm sure, but since Rory's arc was the most disquieting, I'm the most fired up over hers. 

[photo fox]

4 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, remembering that ASP had the last four words planned since before the series ended, how differently would it have been if ASP stayed on the show an extra year and Rory had to utter those lines after graduating college? 

 

Honestly, I wonder if it would have been, "Rory?" "Yeah?" "I'm pregnant."

But if we take ASP at her word, I honestly think she would have had Rory be in a relationship of some kind.  Because I don't see "22-year-old Rory repeats her mother's story" as being the kind of happy ending that a series usually requires.  I think the kind of ambiguous end we got to the revival is only possible because ASP is reasonably confident that there will be more episodes.

[NumberCruncher]

16 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

For all that I've complained about season 7, at least the good thing coming out of this revival is that I'll be able to happily watch season 7 now. The fact that ASP deliberately ignored season 7's existence besides mentioning Lorelai's marriage to Christopher (and that was just as a snide 'joke') is just ridiculous. We can't forget that season 7 existed. But guess what? It still treated the characters way better than this shitty revival. It gave Emily a good arc, sure, but at the expense of Ed Hermann, and subsequently Richard, dying. That's it. I would love to know what are the actual good moments of the revival, mostly the ones that actually helped the characters in some way.

Also, remembering that ASP had the last four words planned since before the series ended, how differently would it have been if ASP stayed on the show an extra year and Rory had to utter those lines after graduating college? 

Yeah, I think I'm going to consider S7 my conclusion, as flawed as it was.  Still better than this mess and I have the added bonus of remembering Edward Hermann as the man I always loved. 

Those last 4 words would have seemed more realistic with a college-aged Rory and probably would have made more sense back then as ASP could have written Rory, Logan, and Jess the way she intended to rather than letting the audience waste an entire season watching a show canon be promptly mowed over 10 years later, leaving us with a group of rather pathetic 30-something characters in the wake.

Edited November 26, 2016 by NumberCruncher

[Eyes High]

There's no way to square Logan's supposed love for Rory with his refusal to break off his engagement. Either he doesn't love her at all, or he doesn't love her enough.

As for Rory, I think she cares about Logan but has already written him off as father material, not unreasonably in my opinion. Why else would she go to the man who had been a subpar father to her to ask him questions about not raising her if she hadn't already lumped Logan in with Christopher? Rory was looking for Christopher for confirmation that Lorelai had made the right choice by excluding him, and she got it.

[FictionLover]

The one night stand Rory had must have been written in for a reason, for Rory to question the paternity of the baby. I really didn't like Rory's storyline. I did like that she is writing a book about her and her mom. I did get teary-eyed when Rory was walking through the grandparents house with echoes of the past.

I was disappointed in Luke and Lorelai's storyline as well. They were boring and Luke seemed like no more than Paul Anka to Lorelai; a companion to follow her around when she wanted. I did like their proposal scene and the wedding with Reflecting Light. But the way SP talked about them, I expected more leaving this Java Junkie disappointed. 

Emily was spot on. I loved her arc and the resolution she and Lorelai had with the memory of Richard that  Lorelai shared. The best part of the sesons for me.

The characters didn't seem right with the exception of Emily and Paris. I an fine if this is the conclusion of Gilmore Girls  

[backhometome]

Quote

As for Rory, I think she cares about Logan but has already written him off as father material, not unreasonably in my opinion

But why has she written him off as father material?. Yes, Logan is flawed but nothing indicated he would be a bad father like Christopher. This doesnt make sense to me. The scene with Christopher was him basically giving her the okay to raise the kid on her own. She is going to pull an Anna and not tell him? which would be awful.

I do think Rory loves him their last scene was played like she def. had feelings. I got more from her with him than anything with Jess - nothing there on her end at all. 

[starri]

I wish that they could have forgotten that Sebastian "AIDS Kills Fags Dead" Bach existed.  I've never liked him, his presence on the series offended me, and I'm even more annoyed that they needed to bring him back, even for a single scene.

[Lady Calypso]

14 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

The one night stand Rory had must have been written in for a reason, for Rory to question the paternity of the baby. I really didn't like Rory's storyline. I did like that she is writing a book about her and her mom. I did get teary-eyed when Rory was walking through the grandparents house with echoes of the past.

Unless Rory is a lot farther along (since she had the one night stand in Spring), then I do truly think it's just meant to be another sign of her melting down. Not that there's anything wrong with people having a one night stand, but Rory seemed pretty upset by it.

5 minutes ago, backhometome said:

But why has she written him off as father material?. Yes, Logan is flawed but nothing indicated he would be a bad father like Christopher. This doesnt make sense to me. The scene with Christopher was him basically giving her the okay to raise the kid on her own. She is going to pull an Anna and not tell him? which would be awful.

 

I agree. I really grew to dislike Logan in this revival despite really liking him previously. But this revival didn't exactly prove to me that he would be a bad father. The only thing about Logan is that he chose someone else over Rory. He chose to still get married to Odette instead of choosing to be with Rory completely, but he also expected that she would still be around when he needed her. Very unhealthy and very flawed, sure, but no indication that he wouldn't step up to be a father unlike Christopher. But Christopher was also 16. Logan's 35/36. 

[cantbeflapped]

12 hours ago, starri said:

Random thought:  If Lorelai was so keen on keeping Michel around and trying to find more money to pay him, why not ask Sookie if they could give him a share of the business.  After sticking around for more than a decade, he's probably earned it.  I will also say that I really did like him as Lorelai's substitute bestie, and was really quite happy he was at the wedding.

One of the most pleasant surprises for me was the role Michel played in the revival.  The thought of losing him was a real catalyst for change for Loreali.  I know in the original series he is mostly comic relief, but, as I noted in another thread, I always really valued him and appreciated the moments where he got to be a bit more than comic relief.  I had the same thought about making him a partner.  I was so relieved when I realized the franchise money was probably going to be used to expand the inn and keep Michel....whew!  

[fruittree36]

I never watched Gilmore Girls when it aired, I just completed my first viewing in a "getting ready for work" binge from August to October this year. I lurked inside this forum along the way. A few things stuck out to me watching, free from the nostalgia factor: 

• As the series progressed through the seasons, I grew to only tolerate Lorelai and Rory. Given the rise of anti-hero shows, I felt distinct anti-hero vibes from Lorelai.
• I knew of the disdain for season 7, but didn't feel it. 
• My favorite characters ended up being Logan (for his growth in season 7) and Sookie. 
• I think it was better to watch this show live, and over time. I didn't feel the Luke/Lorelai burn before the season 4 hook up as much. I think it's because I plowed through episodes so quickly. 

I did plow through all four revival episodes yesterday. I wasn't super excited, because I hadn't waited for years, but I was curious. I'm in the camp that you can't go home again. Hated how they regressed Logan. Disliked the excuses for Sookie not being there (even though I knew she wouldn't be there) and how it appears that no time had passed in eight years, like they'd just been churning, repeating the same motions until Richard's death. Things should have naturally progressed over 8 years more than it did. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, backhometome said:

But why has she written him off as father material?. Yes, Logan is flawed but nothing indicated he would be a bad father like Christopher. This doesnt make sense to me. The scene with Christopher was him basically giving her the okay to raise the kid on her own. She is going to pull an Anna and not tell him? which would be awful.

I do think Rory loves him their last scene was played like she def. had feelings. I got more from her with him than anything with Jess - nothing there on her end at all. 

Nothing indicated that Christopher would be a bad father, either...until he was. 

I think Rory finally realized that Logan is Christopher. While I think she had already made up her mind about Logan's lack of suitability, she seemed to take it in when Christopher joked about wearing a new suit and "caving" in--"I call it a cave because I caved"--to the "family biz" (sound familiar?). If the parallels were not lost on the audience, I doubt they were lost on Rory, either.

I don't doubt that Rory has feelings for Logan, and even maybe vice versa: Logan trying to cajole his upset, humiliated side piece into agreeing to meeting him in a hotel like a prostitute in London, all "Baby, don't be like that!!! I got Matilda tickets!!!" was not the behaviour of a man in love, but of a man pouting at the prospect of being deprived of his favourite toy. However, just as with Christopher and Lorelai, another willful, "force of nature" woman as ASP made clear (Emily in Winter and Christopher in Fall described Lorelai in the same way) and a weak, useless man, it's not and never will be enough.

I imagine that's why Rory was so upset in the last scene. She cares about Logan, probably even loves him, but she knows that Logan is a Christopher-level douchebag unworthy of raising her kid, and that knowledge has got to sting.

That might also be why she was so effusive in her praise of Dean, who eventually, at least, became a devoted family man whose main topic of conversation with his ex is his multiple adorable kids and beloved wife. Rory's meetings with Christopher and Dean take place towards the end of Fall. Compare Dean fondly talking about his family and Clara's hated German boyfriend to Christopher's generic comment about GiGi--"She's got the baguette thing down"--and verbal shrug about Lana--"Are you two still together?"/"Why not?"--and the contrast becomes pretty stark. Rory is realizing that "protective" Dean became (at least eventually) the anti-Christopher--"I wish we'd met when I was older and more mature"--and that that's what she wants. Not Dean, of course, but someone who can be that for her.

Quote

Hated how they regressed Logan.

ASP didn't regress anything. Revival Logan is her Logan, the same charming, selfish, immature, and worthless asshole--the same charming, selfish, immature, and worthless Christopher, basically--he was before Season 7. Season 7 Logan is Rosenthal's Logan, not ASP's.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[EarlGreyTea]

55 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

ASP didn't regress anything. Revival Logan is her Logan, the same charming, selfish, immature, and worthless asshole--the same charming, selfish, immature, and worthless Christopher, basically--he was before Season 7. Season 7 Logan is Rosenthal's Logan, not ASP's.

I read - and I may be wrong, I got it secondhand - that ASP didn't watch any of Season 7, just had people tell her about it, or some such. I don't know if it's true, and God knows many parts of S7 were a mess, but what a damn shame. I didn't realize how much I appreciated Logan's S7 arc until the revival. That, and the lack of mention of Rory's awesome job with the Obama press pool, which was some of the best S7 had to offer.

If she DID watch any of S7, it's pretty clear she chose to clear the slate anyway.

Edited November 26, 2016 by EarlGreyTea

[Lady Calypso]

54 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

ASP didn't regress anything. Revival Logan is her Logan, the same charming, selfish, immature, and worthless asshole--the same charming, selfish, immature, and worthless Christopher, basically--he was before Season 7. Season 7 Logan is Rosenthal's Logan, not ASP's.

Well, the issue is that there IS a season 7. It may not be ASP's, but it's the viewers. She can't just erase S7 because she wasn't part of it. As much as I wanted to erase S7 before, now I'd rather erase the revival! Yet, we can't, because it's canon. It's part of the GG universe. That'll never go away or be unwatched. ASP may choose to believe it doesn't exist and it probably helps if the rumors about her not watching S7 is true. The problem is that it's still there. So yes, it IS regression. Logan at the end of season 6 would have fit Revival Logan well. Season 7 Logan, however, took a different path, a better path. So yes, ASP may not have written S7, but it still exists. Therefore, it is absoluutely regression, whether she wants to throw a hissy fit about it or not. 

I may be a little bitter at the moment because the revival is still fresh. 

[tankgirl73]

Quote

I really enjoyed the revival overall, even though I have nitpicks, but I really HATED what they did to Logan.  Not even the cheating so much - since we never saw Odette, I can fanwank that it was a relationship born of convenience and maybe she doesn't care - but it really bothers me that they had Logan back working for his dad again and drinking on the family dime like the end of Season 7 never happened.  He was a smart guy, and by all accounts when he was in London before he was a (perhaps surprisingly) hard worker.  In my mind, he had gone of to San Francisco and become successful in his own right.  Disappointing.

See, I don't agree that his 'regression' is a terrible, or at least an unexpected, thing. I commented in one of the episode threads -- Logan is an ass, and always was an ass. He did truly love Rory, I think, and in S7 he honestly tried to stop being an ass. He made it pretty far, too. But he never fully escaped that world. He did try, and he made progress. But that's never a guarantee that the progress is permanent. His history, his personality, his family, his comfort with the life he had -- it was all too strong.

He was already an ass by the end of S7, ASP didn't have to regress him. He asked Rory to marry him -- with an ultimatum. "Uproot your life completely, follow my plans for us, I've already settled everything without your input, come with me and marry me or else we're through." That's not expressing love -- that's selfishness. She said "uh... no... not right now anyway... I want to marry you but not like this..." and the fact that he said "screw you" and left -- that makes him an ass. Her rejection of his offer very believably would make him say "what have I been doing all this for anyway" and gone back to his playboy ways. We already saw that he did that when they were 'on a break'. It's totally in character for him to revert to the person he was -- I never expected any different from him.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Well, the issue is that there IS a season 7. It may not be ASP's, but it's the viewers. She can't just erase S7 because she wasn't part of it. As much as I wanted to erase S7 before, now I'd rather erase the revival! Yet, we can't, because it's canon. It's part of the GG universe. That'll never go away or be unwatched. ASP may choose to believe it doesn't exist and it probably helps if the rumors about her not watching S7 is true. The problem is that it's still there. So yes, it IS regression. Logan at the end of season 6 would have fit Revival Logan well. Season 7 Logan, however, took a different path, a better path. So yes, ASP may not have written S7, but it still exists. Therefore, it is absoluutely regression, whether she wants to throw a hissy fit about it or not. 

I may be a little bitter at the moment because the revival is still fresh. 

Fans aren't entitled to a version of the character when that version is essentially an official fanfic creation, and ASP had no obligation whatoever to conform to Rosenthal's fanfic version of her own character...particularly when she was lured back with the promise of writing her ending and her characters the way she had originally intended. ASP never agreed to have Logan written that way, and she never would have written him that way in any event, so why should she care? Why should she cater to viewers who loved Season 7 Logan if she believed Season 7 Logan was a fundamental misrepresentation of the character?

Characterizing ASP's adherence to the characters as she originally conceived them--in a revival she was asked to do on the very premise that she would do it as she had intended--as a "hissy fit" is very unfair in my opinion. They are her characters. Characterizing them in accordance with her versions of the characters as opposed to Rosenthal's fanfic versions is her prerogative and indeed exactly what Netflix asked her and what fans claimed they wanted her to do. She isn't "regressing" anything by adhering to her vision. 

Calling a creator sticking to her versions of the characters and disregarding story material she never agreed to a "hissy fit" also smacks of entitlement to me. Fans were not owed canon in line with Season 7 particularly after screaming for ASP's return to "fix" the mistakes of Season 7, and they were not owed Devoted Father/Husband Material Logan. There's fanfic for that.

Also, many fans claimed they hated Season 7 and clamoured for ASP's take on the ending, including ASP's take on the characters. Unfortunately for fans who seem to have misapprehended or misunderstood where ASP was going with Logan all along, that's exactly what they got. Be careful what you wish for. I think the real problem is that some  didn't understand where ASP was going with Logan and resisted the Logan/Christopher parallels when the original series was airing, and now that ASP has clearly shown her hand they're crying foul. That's unfortunate and all, but it's not ASP's fault. She's always been clear about who Logan is. Some fans just refused to listen.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Fans aren't entitled to a version of the character when that version is essentially an official fanfic creation, and ASP had no obligation whatoever to conform to Rosenthal's fanfic version of her own character...particularly when she was lured back with the promise of writing her ending and her characters the way she had originally intended. ASP never agreed to have Logan written that way, and she never would have written him that way in any event, so why should she care? Why should she cater to viewers who loved Season 7 Logan if she believed Season 7 Logan was a fundamental misrepresentation of the character?

Everyone clamoured for ASP's take on the ending, including ASP's take on the characters, and that's exactly what they got. Be careful what you wish for and all that. I don't know whether ASP watched any of S7 or not, but her biggest swing at Season 7 was reinstating the correct characterization of Logan as a worthless douchebag.

I don't necessarily agree and here's why: Rosenthal was the showrunner for the last season. If there had been a season 8 then that still would be canon. It's part of the show. It stops being fanfiction when it becomes the show's canon. ASP relinquished her showrunning duties at the end of season 6 and there became a seventh season. Just because there was a new showrunner, it doesn't mean that an entire season can be erased just because things didn't turn out the way ASP wanted it to. ASP can't just change characters because she didn't write them, because it's not just about her and her vision. It's about everyone who was invested in the show for seven seasons. Not six seasons, but seven. 

Take a look at Community. That show had its showrunner leave during its fourth season. Things were different for that entire season. The main character Jeff graduated. But then the original showrunner came back. Dan Harmon didn't just have Jeff back at the school as if he never graduated. He kept the show's canon because it wasn't just about him. He adjusted and compromised. ASP, in my opinion, didn't. 

So yes, ASP did what she wanted, and seemingly what she had planned way back when the original series aired. But for me, it ended up failing in many ways. Sure, there had been successes, but not when it came to certain characters and ignoring S7 canon is a pretty selfish way to honour the show and the viewers. That's really how I feel. And I say this as an avid Logan fan until the revival. I was totally ok with Logan/Rory being endgame because of the path that got him to where he was by season 7. 

[starri]

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So yes, ASP did what she wanted, and seemingly what she had planned way back when the original series aired. But for me, it ended up failing in many ways. Sure, there had been successes, but not when it came to certain characters and ignoring S7 canon is a pretty selfish way to honour the show and the viewers.

Perhaps I'm just saying this because I'm so disappointed both by the revival and by attempting to rewatch the show as a slightly more grown-up adult, but I wonder if perhaps part of the reason that she ignored it was less a tantrum against the show not going the way she wanted it to, but more because she's a shitty writer.  We have no idea how she could have adapted her original plans to serve the story she had wanted to tell, because she didn't even try.

Just ignoring continuity you don't like is comic book level writing.  And I say this as a comic book reader.

[tarotx]

I don't think Logan is much more a douche bag than Rory. They are both in this life going through the motions of what people expect for and out of them. And they use each other as an escape from that reality. We know Rory better. We meet the other people in her life as people and not just the bad traits directed at Rory. At the end of the show Rory is being forced to face responsibility and she owes Logan that chance. She shouldn't get to decide that Logan is Christopher. That is on Logan to either be or prove he's not.

Imo Jess is not a real character. There was something missing from the revival in making him real. He's Rory's Luke who just happens to be related to Luke. Though he does seem on the surface, too good for Rory. 

I'll confess that I'm not a shipper and one who gets frustrated at the think Rory and Lorelai are headed for the same fate so has to have her Christopher and Luke. It's why I loved the way season 7 ended. I didn't like a chunk of s5-7 but I loved how Rory said no to Logan's Proposal and started her life searching out her career. She was 22 and at the beginning. Now at the 31ish it just seems like she is forever stuck and never really looked to get unstuck until maybe now with the baby. But just as likely she could force Lorelai to be a grandma mother. I mean we don't have much to go on to tell us that Rory is a stand-up character.  

Edited November 26, 2016 by tarotx
Because I pushed save without proof reading and probably made a bunch more mistakes that I'll have to go back and fix >.<

[photo fox]

ITA, @Lady Calypso. When you put art into the world, it stops being "yours". Even more so when you sell that art, which essentially ASP did. I have a lot of sympathy for her original issues with the studio, but when she decided to leave, a side effect of that was giving up control of these characters.

And not everyone hated S7. Canon is canon.

44 minutes ago, tankgirl73 said:

But that's never a guarantee that the progress is permanent. His history, his personality, his family, his comfort with the life he had -- it was all too strong.

Maybe my issue is that we never heard how this happened. I could believe this could go as you say, but the last time we saw Logan, he was heading to California, cutting ties with his family, determined to create a new professional destiny for himself. It's hard for me to make that mesh with Revival!Logan without any explanation at all. (And as I said, the biggest disconnect for me was regarding his job and his dad. I can believe his personal life would be a mess.)

[fruittree36]

Aside from apparently needing to forget S7, I think my biggest pet peeve with the revival is ASP and DP's treatment of thirtysomethings. They even created the "thirtysomething gang," who all live at home and apparently still need their parents to review their resumes. As a resident thirtysomething (between Rory and Logan's ages), it really irks me. The most "thirtysomething" thirtysomethings in the GG universe appear to be Lane and Zach, and Jess - provided he's still not pining for Rory. I'd say Paris too. Paris is flailing in her own Paris way, but not in a way that feels like someone a decade younger would be flailing. 

[starri]

Can someone remind me of what the circumstances were behind ASP's departure from the show?  She left of her own volition, she wasn't fired, right?  Was it just because CW was pressuring her to make changes that she wasn't comfortable with?

[Lady Calypso]

I think the major issue for me is that they could have had those four words still while having Rory at her happiest, with a successful job and maybe even a successful boyfriend. ASP decided to go very bleak as a "cliffhanger", as if ASP expects that they'll get a second season. It's very Rory Gilmore of her, I guess. That's the impression I get, at least. They leave enough vague to get viewers and the studios to want more. 

I also am not sure I like the implication that having a kid will give meaning to your life, or that it'll change your life for the better. Now, Rory's look in the final shot contradicts that in some way, but if the revival ends here, what do we get? A miserable and scared Rory who's living in Stars Hollow and is writing a book that may or may not follow Jess' success. A surprised and many disappointed Lorelai, who has Luke as her husband now but will surely throw her life into caring for Rory's child to overcompensate for her relationship with her mother. Logan who has no idea about the baby, and may never be part of this child's life unless Lorelai convinces Rory to tell him and let him be involved. We don't know if he WILL be involved. All we know is that he's getting married, Rory and him are not together. Everyone else's stories are relatively finished. Oh wait, except for poor Jess, who may or may not be pining over Rory still and his final scene is of him and what will never be with Rory. 

The fact that the series might genuinely end here is pretty unsatisfying. There clearly means to be more and if we get it, then it'll be another round of ASP toying with viewers. And if we don't, then it's a completely unsatisfying way to end the series. At least season 7 tied things up as best as it could. 

[Randomosity]

I guess I'll post here just to vent my thoughts. I don't remember enough of what things were which episode, so this thread seems as good a place as any.

• I loved a lot of the nostalgia and references and shoutouts. It was Gilmore, and that's what I wanted.
• I never cry at TV/movies, but Richard's funeral scene got a couple tears.
• I really liked Emily's arc. It seemed the most natural, realistic, and true to how she might have reacted given all that was thrown at her. I love her as a docent in the whale museum :)
• Lorelai (and Luke) were ok. My main complaint there was that it did not ring true to have them only now be talking children, future, wedding, whatever. It's like, hi, this - in real life - would have happened seven or eight years ago, especially the kid conversation as Lorelai would have been hitting 40. I really didn't like that they claimed to have not talked about kids - "What about the kids?!" and plants and "Kids would be good". That aspect of them was so obviously contrived just to have it in this revival. I would have preferred to see things like the Inn expansion, Richard's franchise trust, etc. all still happen, but while they'd been married for six years and had a four year old running around.
• I hate Rory. Like, were she a real human, I'd be disgusted by her behavior and the cheating/clandestine relationship with Logan. And Paul? I get it was done for humor, but it takes a miserable brand of person to string someone along (for years!) that they don't even care about while cheating to boot. I really felt bad for Paul.
• I do, however, sympathize with her feeling lost in the world and jobless/rootless, even into her 30s. It's real and it sucks.
• Regarding the ending, I 'get' what we're supposed to interpret with the parallels of Jess/Logan to Luke/Christopher. But ugh. I was never #teamanyone, so I may well go on with the head canon that the kid is either Paul's or that Rory signed up as as a surrogate for Paris' company to get some cash while working on the book. Is it what happened? No, but I'm going to stomp my feet and refuse to accept Logan. Even Jess as the father would be a better option.
• Again, regarding Rory. They could have done the Logan thing without there having been cheating and being horrible to Paul. Ugh.

 

Overall, I'm still really glad this revival was a thing. But no, it wasn't perfect.

[starri]

If there's more, I will probably be a lot more inclined to like it if Lorelai suddenly realizes that when it comes to her own grandchild, she's behaving like Emily.  And in turn, Emily is Lorelai to her great-grandchild.

But I don't have any faith that they'd show her to be less than a perfect, "cool" grandma.