The Other Duggars: The Lost Girls and Amy

[Rabbittron]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I agree.  From what Jana posted and then who found the body, she was only by herself for a few hours.   That is a huge reach for Pickles to say that JB was too cheap for a nursing home.   

He is too cheap because his father was very frail and he was wheeled around in a office chair. 

[crazycatlady58]

34 minutes ago, Higgins said:

Suicide watch is one to one. Eyes on constantly.

Having someone watch me 24/7 would MAKE  me suicidal .

[Jeeves]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

The comment above strikes me as ageist. Most 78 year olds I have known are far from frail. My mom passed in her mid 70s and was anything but frail. My dad passed in his early 80s - two weeks after he power washed his girlfriend's home.

I have quite a ways to go before reaching my 70s, but I hope no one assumes just because of my age that I need some kind assistance to manage my days.

It's certainly more common for older folks to have serious medical events because bodies are not made to last forever, however it's unfair to think older folks need to be housed in nursing homes waiting for a medical event to occur. 

Thank you for that. I'm about to turn 71. I'm not as strong as I used to be but I'm not ready for a nursing home, FFS. I consider myself luckier than some contemporaries who are struggling with serious health issues, and I'm well aware of the passing years. I'm in better physical shape than some of my age peers, and not as fit as others whom I know. 

These days I wouldn't assume anything about a person's health or fitness to live independently, just based on their being aged 78. That would be just - ignorant.

[Jynnan tonnix]

4 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Thank you for that. I'm about to turn 71. I'm not as strong as I used to be but I'm not ready for a nursing home, FFS. I consider myself luckier than some contemporaries who are struggling with serious health issues, and I'm well aware of the passing years. I'm in better physical shape than some of my age peers, and not as fit as others whom I know. 

These days I wouldn't assume anything about a person's health or fitness to live independently, just based on their being aged 78. That would be just - ignorant.

My mom, when she was in her mid-70's, was still spending every day she could outside in her yard gardening - which included tending to several large rock-gardens, clambering on and jumping between good-size boulders, weeding and clipping, even moving sizeable bushes from spot to spot as she decided they had outgrown their original space. Granted, Dad was still alive then as well, so she wasn't alone, per se. but he did leave not infrequently for a couple of weeks in Poland or involved in Polish Scouting camps and conferences.

[Higgins]

32 minutes ago, crazycatlady58 said:

Having someone watch me 24/7 would MAKE  me suicidal .

I know but that's the way it works.

[BigBingerBro]

I don't know anything about Mary and what her health status was, but I wouldn't be surprised that she became quite frail after her strokes at that age.  It can happen.  My mother, at age 72, was dealing with typical issues, like high blood pressure, etc.  But then she fell during the night and broke her hip.  After that, her health really took a dive and she died 5 months later.

Based on photos, Mary looked progressively weaker as time went on this year before her death.

[MMEButterfly]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

The comment above strikes me as ageist. Most 78 year olds I have known are far from frail. My mom passed in her mid 70s and was anything but frail. My dad passed in his early 80s - two weeks after he power washed his girlfriend's home.

I have quite a ways to go before reaching my 70s, but I hope no one assumes just because of my age that I need some kind assistance to manage my days.

It's certainly more common for older folks to have serious medical events because bodies are not made to last forever, however it's unfair to think older folks need to be housed in nursing homes waiting for a medical event to occur. 

For my own peace of mind I'm going with Mary tripping, hitting her head, becoming unconscious and falling in the pool. Through not fault of her own or anyone else.

Me, too. People also need to remember many people in their 80s have not have serious medical events at all. 

[lookeyloo]

I'm hoping Mary's condition was not just that she was 78 - otherwise I should just sit down now and give up since I am 75.  I can go with that she had some strokes, other health issues we probably don't know about (or need to know) and maybe she became disoriented for a second and lost her balance.  Y'all know I am no fan of any of the Duggars but don't think they were totally thoughtless about Grandma Duggar.  Maybe she was having a good day and maybe Deanna said "mama, I'm going to the Walmart for a minute - do you need anything? Will you be okay til I get back?" Or some such thing.  People have strokes/heart attacks/fainting spells just out of the blue sometimes.  Again,no fan of the Duggars.

[truebluesmoky]

Can someone clarify the baby due in January thing? It came up in Pickles’s post about the memorial service and in Jessa’s tribute to Mary. Is the speculation that it’s a pregnancy that hasn’t been announced yet? Process of elimination means it would have to be Abbie, Jill, or Jinger, but probably not Jinger based on her own statements. 

[BetyBee]

49 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Thank you for that. I'm about to turn 71. I'm not as strong as I used to be but I'm not ready for a nursing home, FFS. I consider myself luckier than some contemporaries who are struggling with serious health issues, and I'm well aware of the passing years. I'm in better physical shape than some of my age peers, and not as fit as others whom I know. 

These days I wouldn't assume anything about a person's health or fitness to live independently, just based on their being aged 78. That would be just - ignorant.

Ignorant sums up Pickle's pov, imo.  She's awfully harsh in her assessment.  I'm no Duggar fan, but I do believe that they all loved Grandma Mary and that she was a big part of their lives.  I also think JBob could stumble over the number of granchildren when he's eulogizing his mother.  That's understandable.  

[BitterApple]

Mary definitely looked weak in recent photos, and somewhat confused in a couple videos Amy posted, so I don't think Pickles was off-base in calling her frail. Was she at the point where she needed 24/7 supervision? Obviously we don't know, but I absolutely believe Boob is too cheap to pay for assisted living or a skilled nursing facility. I never thought he or Michelle were particularly close to Mary, despite them singing her praises at Big Sandy. 

[Oldernowiser]

I wonder how much medical care she was getting, because Jesus or because she didn’t want it or because JimBob. She was relatively young these days and many strokes can be avoided with the right care.

[3 is enough]

Maybe Mary was just tired from spending the morning with the family and needed some quiet time alone.  And then she fell into the pool.  Accidental deaths are an unfortunate fact of life.  That doesn't mean she was being ignored. 

My mother is 82.  She has dementia but a few years ago when she was still lucid she needed her quiet time. She lives 10 minutes from my brother,  another brother comes to visit for a week  every summer with his family.  They would bring her over every day, until she asked for a day off because she found all of the commotion exhausting.  This was partly because she is hard of hearing and even with the hearing aid when there is a lot of background noise it is difficult to understand what people are saying.  She was not being ignored, on the contrary, my brothers were respecting her wishes.

Jim Bob is cheap as hell, but Mary evidently had money to pay for in home help if she had needed it.  She appeared to be frail but it seemed she was still able to make decisions for herself.  I always got the impression that she was careful and smart with her money and I doubt she would have let Jim Bob take advantage or strong arm her into doing something she did not want to do.

[Higgins]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

Mary definitely looked weak in recent photos, and somewhat confused in a couple videos Amy posted, so I don't think Pickles was off-base in calling her frail. Was she at the point where she needed 24/7 supervision? Obviously we don't know, but I absolutely believe Boob is too cheap to pay for assisted living or a skilled nursing facility. I never thought he or Michelle were particularly close to Mary, despite them singing her praises at Big Sandy. 

She is better off to have avoided a LTC. As an previous RN Supervisor of a 5 star rated facility, that is a fate worse than death IMO.

[Temperance]

5 hours ago, truebluesmoky said:

Can someone clarify the baby due in January thing? It came up in Pickles’s post about the memorial service and in Jessa’s tribute to Mary. Is the speculation that it’s a pregnancy that hasn’t been announced yet? Process of elimination means it would have to be Abbie, Jill, or Jinger, but probably not Jinger based on her own statements. 

In her tribute to Mary, Jessa said something about the babies coming in fall and winter.   So far we know that Amy is in due October, Kendra, Joy, Lauren, and Anna are due in November. None of them are due in winter. No one has announced anything yet.  So it makes sense that someone is pregnant and due in January. Most people make more formal(ish) announcements around 3 months, which be around July for a January baby. I think it might be Jill, but that's just speculation. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by Temperance

[Ijustwantsomechips]

Of course, this is assuming they know that winter officially starts in December and not when it turns cold outside.  We might be giving them too much credit.  

[BigBingerBro]

I often wonder what the entire story was with Grandpa Duggar's ultimate demise.  I know he had a brain tumor, but I wonder if he could have had surgery or treatment that could have prolonged his life.  I don't think they ever addressed it on the show.  I know he went downhill fast, or so it seemed based on what they showed on the show.  He really should have been in a hospice facility during the time they were wheeling him around on the office chair.  Perhaps money was tight, but I'm pretty sure Mary owned a few properties at the time that could have been sold.  I just shows they are tight when it comes to medical care.  That may explain why so many of the girls are so pro-home birth.

[Ohiopirate02]

34 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

I often wonder what the entire story was with Grandpa Duggar's ultimate demise.  I know he had a brain tumor, but I wonder if he could have had surgery or treatment that could have prolonged his life.  I don't think they ever addressed it on the show.  I know he went downhill fast, or so it seemed based on what they showed on the show.  He really should have been in a hospice facility during the time they were wheeling him around on the office chair.  Perhaps money was tight, but I'm pretty sure Mary owned a few properties at the time that could have been sold.  I just shows they are tight when it comes to medical care.  That may explain why so many of the girls are so pro-home birth.

Depending on what kind of cancer grandpa Duggar had, I can see him deciding to forgo chemo and radiation and choosing not to prolong his suffering.   Both chemo and radiation are harsh on the body and can cause some wicked side effects and if treatment can only provide a few more months of life, is it worth it?  Many people decide to go home and enjoy their last few months with family instead.   In theory this would allow a person to die with dignity.   But, we all know that dignity is not the Duggar style.

[Marigold]

I think Mary was just leaning over, cleaning the pool and slipped/got woozy.  Mary was a high energy, get-it-done kinda person.  I can totally see her walking around outside, after church, and tidying up things. 

None of us really know if Mary needed supervision or not but her age alone shouldn't be a deciding factor. Sadly, anyone can drown at any age.  The young and old are more susceptible, of course.  

Life takes its twists and turns...

[JoanArc]

I haven't seen anyone speculate that maybe she went swimming alone. People do that all the time and it's not odd, even for someone her age. A good Idea? No, but her family isn't known for wise choices...

[Marigold]

35 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

I haven't seen anyone speculate that maybe she went swimming alone. People do that all the time and it's not odd, even for someone her age. A good Idea? No, but her family isn't known for wise choices...

That's possible too.  Maybe she wanted some quiet time after church...

[flyingdi]

I'd like to see someone tell my 75 year old mama she can't do what she wants. She would never normally go swimming alone because she's afraid of water but if someone told her she couldn't she would be doing a triple Lindy off the high dive while giving them the finger!

[OpieTaylor]

I wonder if the Duggars have security cameras around the outside of their houses and buildings. If so, maybe Mary’s demise was caught on camera.

[truebluesmoky]

JFC, I was cutting them slack on the photos until this post...

The close-up of the pallbearers with the casket? The shit eating grins of Boob, Michelle, and Josie? WTF?

Edited to add: I just realized this is already in the JimBob and Michelle thread. Let me know if I should delete it here.

Edited June 19, 2019 by truebluesmoky

[Temperance]

So TLC did film the funeral and everything and there's Josh front and center. Heee'sss back! 😡

[FairyDusted]

Well DAMN! I just checked in on bump watch and saw something about Lauren and a funeral dress and read several pages to see what happened. I'm so sorry about Grandma Mary.

I'm deeply disturbed seeing the actual funeral in photos and they filmed it?!!! I through a very unholy fit when my family recorded funerals in my family. I can't imagine sharing that with anyone.

I have a set of parents living with me downstairs. Not easy. We recently had to sell a vehicle to keep my SMom from driving. And now we are battling her coming up the steps unattended. She uses my kitchen every day to make a peanut butter sandwich. No problem but she has her own bigger newer kitchen. I can't figure it out.

Anyway........these last few pages....damn sad!   

[mythoughtis]

My parents are 80. They live by themselves several states away. They chose to move there, we didn’t move away from them.   Most of their neighbors are also close to that age, so they have a support system for each other. Just because someone is 78 doesn’t mean they have to move in with someone and have caregivers- even if they have had strokes.  Mary lived in a house just a couple of minutes away from the Duggar main home.   She was being checked on. People die every day in retirement communities, assisted living centers etc even if the caregiver is 3 feet away.  The coroner says she drowned, didn’t say she had another stroke or that she hit her head. So she probably lost her balance and fell into the pool.  Deanna or one of the Duggar girls might not have been able to prevent or or get her out even if they had been there. 

[Snow Fairy]

Do swimming pools account for lots of deaths in the US? I have a feeling that I often see some post (FB, reddit... ) written by a grieving parent about the dangers of swimming pools. Last I remeber Bode Miller, and recently I saw some other I think celebrity whose child drowned

[Oldernowiser]

4 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

Do swimming pools account for lots of deaths in the US? I have a feeling that I often see some post (FB, reddit... ) written by a grieving parent about the dangers of swimming pools. Last I remeber Bode Miller, and recently I saw some other I think celebrity whose child drowned

I don’t really know...I suspect per capita we have more pools in this country because there’s lots of land and having a pool was (and maybe still is in some places)  something of a cultural aspiration at some point. Also it’s nasty hot in much of the country certain times of the year.

So...more pools, more accidents. IIRC they actually sell alarms that go off whenever something or someone gets in the pool. But you’d have to buy it, set it, and think ahead. Not in the Duggardome skill set.

[Sew Sumi]

[Oldernowiser]

Translation: Me! Me! It’s all about me!

[jcbrown]

7 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Shut up, JereME.

[Ijustwantsomechips]

33 minutes ago, jcbrown said:

Shut up, JereME.

How much do you want to bet he drug that interment out unnecessarily. I could see him going from ashes to ashes into some lame ass sermon all about his greatness 🙄This guy is ridiculous!

[Sew Sumi]

He barely knew Mary. Why is he speaking at the gravesite?

[Zella]

6 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

He barely knew Mary. Why is he speaking at the gravesite?

I think the Jeremy version of Descartes' "I think; therefore, I am" is "I give long-winded, meandering, poor-quality sermons for every occasion; therefore, I am." 😉 

[Temperance]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

He barely knew Mary. Why is he speaking at the gravesite?

He's the most professional minister of the family? and therefore is leading prayer.

[WalrusGirl]

3 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I actually really love that picture, the blown-out quality, that someone (probably Jing) took it at waist/abdominal height (subtly, not sticking the phone or camera in the air, and she’s a photographer AND directly related to the deceased, so she was well within propriety), but... Jing, or a non-married-in, should have been the one to post it. Ideally without a caption pointing out Jer’s role - he’s clearly doing something once you notice him, and someone would have commented as such. It’s a direct humblebrag when he posts it, and stupid because it’s so unnecessary - Jing took it, it’s her grandmother and husband, let her post it. 🙄

[galaxychaser]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

He barely knew Mary. Why is he speaking at the gravesite?

Because he is the head ship. Jinger is his submissive, blood mare wife.

[Ijustwantsomechips]

7 hours ago, WalrusGirl said:

I actually really love that picture, the blown-out quality, that someone (probably Jing) took it at waist/abdominal height (subtly, not sticking the phone or camera in the air, and she’s a photographer AND directly related to the deceased, so she was well within propriety), but... Jing, or a non-married-in, should have been the one to post it. Ideally without a caption pointing out Jer’s role - he’s clearly doing something once you notice him, and someone would have commented as such. It’s a direct humblebrag when he posts it, and stupid because it’s so unnecessary - Jing took it, it’s her grandmother and husband, let her post it. 🙄

I find the idea that Jinger took the picture  more annoying because I can’t figure whether she took the picture to memorialize (no pun intended) this moment of her grandmother’s funeral, or if she was taking a picture of Babe because she’s star struck by him.  I don’t think there’s anything wrong with him speaking at the gravesite since he’s a grandson by marriage, but you just know he drug it out. And he’s so arrogant and yet mediocre. 

[doodlebug]

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 8:22 AM, Snow Fairy said:

Do swimming pools account for lots of deaths in the US? I have a feeling that I often see some post (FB, reddit... ) written by a grieving parent about the dangers of swimming pools. Last I remeber Bode Miller, and recently I saw some other I think celebrity whose child drowned

Drowning is the leading cause of accidental death in children under 3 in the US.  Of course, little kids can drown in bathtubs, in a bucket of water, in a sink; so it's not just pools.  I do think that here in the US, especially in the warmer states. we probably have more private swimming pools that in Europe or elsewhere, which probably contributes to the risk for little kids.

[doodlebug]

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 12:33 PM, Oldernowiser said:

I don’t really know...I suspect per capita we have more pools in this country because there’s lots of land and having a pool was (and maybe still is in some places)  something of a cultural aspiration at some point. Also it’s nasty hot in much of the country certain times of the year.

So...more pools, more accidents. IIRC they actually sell alarms that go off whenever something or someone gets in the pool. But you’d have to buy it, set it, and think ahead. Not in the Duggardome skill set.

And, of course, in Mary's case, she lived alone and no one was close enough to hear an alarm even if she had one.

[WalrusGirl]

I think it’s something like only one in five drowning deaths (that don’t involve boating) are children (which surprised me), though it’s a leading cause of death for children, not adults. But that 4/5 would include bathtubs, lakes, and oceans as well as pools - just not those drownings involving boating.

[answerphone]

None of us can assume how frail she was.

Elderly people vary a great deal in their physical abilities and mental capacity.

[truebluesmoky]

[latetotheparty]

3 minutes ago, truebluesmoky said:

Gag me. 

[DangerousMinds]

What church are they attending?

[Sew Sumi]

Sorry for changing the subject, but yesterday I read some posts from Deanna that shed light on Mary's last minutes. Paraphrasing until the direct quote, she said that they had no indications that Mary was going to have a "major stroke." It would explain why she couldn't swim to safety. 😞

[Absolom]

Anyone who has had multiple TIAs or multiple less than major strokes is at increased risk for a massive one or so the doctors said about my FIL, my father, and my mother.  Two out of three went on to have massive strokes within two years.  The jury is still out on my mother.

[WalrusGirl]

33 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Sorry for changing the subject, but yesterday I read some posts from Deanna that shed light on Mary's last minutes. Paraphrasing until the direct quote, she said that they had no indications that Mary was going to have a "major stroke." It would explain why she couldn't swim to safety. 😞

Ugh, I haven’t dug around looking for what you saw yet, but with how terrified my dad was when he woke up to use the restroom and realized he was half paralyzed and couldn’t speak - knowing exactly what had happened - adding water to that is just extra heartbreaking.

[Though - if it was a stroke that led to the fall into the pool - I’m really curious why the coroner wouldn’t have said that when releasing the statement they did re drowning anyway, as they’d only know it was another stroke due to the postmortem exam and it would have been listed after drowning as the cause of death (drowning as the immediate cause of death, but due to a CVA).]

29 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Anyone who has had multiple TIAs or multiple less than major strokes is at increased risk for a massive one or so the doctors said about my FIL, my father, and my mother.  Two out of three went on to have massive strokes within two years.  The jury is still out on my mother.

Yeah - that’s why they’re so aggressive about workup (carotid status, blood thinners, higher doses of statins to stabilize the plaque already in the arteries and reduce the odds of any breaking off) after TIAs and strokes, to try to prevent more. 😔 But it’s not like there’s any warning in the days prior or whatnot.

Edited July 2, 2019 by WalrusGirl
ETA bracketed thought

[Sew Sumi]

@WalrusGirl, Deanna's posts were from her FB. I saw screenshots posted in one of my fundie FB groups.