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Chris Knight

Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

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16 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I don't know if OBs and Midwives still use them, but there are pregnancy wheels. Two flat circles pinned together with months and days on it. You line the inner wheel up on the 1st day of your last period and it will calculate how far along you are and your due date. Its really a guestimate though, because not all women's cycles are the same. So yes, I guess you could calculate 4 weeks and 3 days.

In the 1980s when I had kids, the only times we discussed days in pregnancies was if you passed your due date. We really didn't use weeks until the last month. Someone might say 6 and 1/2 months, but not say 28 weeks, and certainly not say 28 weeks and 2 days. During the last month you might hear 38 weeks. Post due date, you might hear 4 days overdue

So folks discussing their pregnancies with such 'accuracy' has been new to me during the last decade or so.

I wouldn't be surprised in Jill has a pregnancy wheel.

We still use the wheel, although now it is on the computer.  The old fashioned way to figure due dates without a wheel is known as Nagel's Rule.  You take the last menstrual period, subtract 3 months and add a week and that's the due date.  I do not know who Nagel was.

The original gestational wheel was the invention of an OB/GYN in Cleveland, Burdette Wylie.  He designed it and made them up to use in his office,  One day a rep from a formula company visited his office to leave samples which used to happen all the time.  He saw Wylie's wheel, went to his bosses and told them about it.  The formula company took the idea, mass produced cardboard wheels and put ads for formula on them and handed them out to OB's all over the country.  Wylie never patented his idea nor did he ever collect a dime for it. Just some weird trivia I happen to have run across.  BTW, I was delivered by Dr Wylie himself many, many, many years ago.

Nowadays, most pregnant women use an app on their phone and can tell you how many weeks and days pregnant they are at any given time.  Jill is not unusual that way.  Back when I started out, patients would ask me how far along they were and I would tell them in weeks only to have them say, 'yes, but how many months am I?'  The problem being that pregnancy is 40 weeks from the last period which is longer than 9 months which messes things up there at the end.

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On 10/20/2021 at 6:51 AM, Zahdii said:

If you don't have sex that often, maybe you can.

I worked with a woman who knew exactly when she got pregnant.  When she found out where I lived, she laughed and said that her child was concieved on the living room floor of the apartment next to me.  

Her boyfriend had gotten a short term job out of town and was gone for a couple of months.  When he returned, they renewed their relationship in the expected way, during the late night news while waiting for The Tonight Show to start.  Whatever they used for birth control either failed or they never used it at all that night.

The next day he told her he'd had an offer to make his temporary job permanent, and he was going to take it.  They argued.  She didn't want to move, he didn't want to stay.  They accused each other of putting their personal wants above the others, and being uncooperative and controlling.  

So they broke up, and he went to stay with his parents for a few days until it was time to leave for his new job.  Although they were in contact after that with the hope of repairing their relationship, the pregnancy ended it.  He accused her of trying to trap him and she was resentful of his accusation.  At the time I knew her, her daughter was around four and hadn't met her father yet, but maybe that changed later on.

It would also work for those who are pretty diligent about non-hormonal birth control in general who succumb to badly-timed circumstances or misunderstandings. That's how I know exactly when two of my kids were conceived. I suppose one does have to allow for hypothetical failures in birth control used, but I'm still pretty sure, especially in the first case, since we were not living together yet.

 

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On 10/20/2021 at 6:43 AM, GeeGolly said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised in Jill has a pregnancy wheel.

It’s one of her “medical things”!

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When one wears a mask and lowers it with their hands as Sam is, it negates wearing a mask. Just saying.

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in the video she states Sam was helping her pick a "memory box" but she didn't want it to look too much like a coffin.

they must not have a spare ammo box laying around.....

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So basically as long as Jill is alive she will tell her sons about their miscarried sister 🙄. I bet the kids will be tired of this conversation soon enough. It’s fine for her to grieve but dragging her kids into this lifelong talk about a late period. Yikes

Asa 2.0 

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Didn’t Jill save her wedding flowers to this day? Does she have memory boxes for her other pregnancy tests? Jill is like a little hoarder of mementoes 😂.

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47 minutes ago, iwantcookies said:

It’s medical thingies 🤣

If you want to be technical 😉

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Oh, good grief. Are we going to get a 10 part YouTube series the way we did for the Oregon trip? I wonder how much of this is genuine grief and how much is "bored mom looking for clicks and attention." 

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59 minutes ago, iwantcookies said:

So basically as long as Jill is alive she will tell her sons about their miscarried sister 🙄. I bet the kids will be tired of this conversation soon enough. It’s fine for her to grieve but dragging her kids into this lifelong talk about a late period. Yikes

Asa 2.0 

OMG!  There is no life event that Jill can't overdo.  It's sickening that she drags the kids into her obsessive need for drama and attention.  Are they going to open the memory box on anniversaries and pass the pee stick around to admire?

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Is Jill going to display the box? How unfortunate for a person that may compliment it.

I don't want to sound harsh, but as a memory, this early miscarriage is theirs and theirs alone. IMO, there's no need to memorialize it with an object.

I wonder if Jill has a Grandma Mary box?

Edited by GeeGolly
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3 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Jill, a 4 or 5 week old embryo is not a baby. I’m just talking semantics.

Actually, I don't think it reached the stage of being an embryo. I think it was still a blastocyst.

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3 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Jill, a 4 or 5 week old embryo is not a baby. I’m just talking semantics.

Seriously, what is there to remember about an embryo?  They don't even know if it was male or female, much less anything else to remember about it.  She had a late period, a positive pregnancy test and then it was over.

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Watch, she's going to pull a Lauren and have a cake with "Big Sister River" at her next baby shower.

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39 minutes ago, Suzn said:

OMG!  There is no life event that Jill can't overdo.  It's sickening that she drags the kids into her obsessive need for drama and attention.  Are they going to open the memory box on anniversaries and pass the pee stick around to admire?

Yes.

I vote for a Christmas stocking hung every year for River Bliss.

Edited by iwantcookies
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The 'coffin' looks like a box you keep on on your nightstand to tastefully hide your condoms, lube, and dildos.

Jill, talk to your therapist about the miscarriage and move on.

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That's the Michelle in her.  Michelle went on about a miscarriage that happened kwhen she started having children. And there was Jubilee in the cigar box. I'm not sure how far along M was with Jubilee.

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17 minutes ago, babyhouseman said:

That's the Michelle in her.  Michelle went on about a miscarriage that happened kwhen she started having children. And there was Jubilee in the cigar box. I'm not sure how far along M was with Jubilee.

Jubilee was buried in an ammo box. She was about 17 weeks gestation, although Meech delivered her closer to 19.

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1 hour ago, ginger90 said:

Putting all of this on social media somehow cheapens it in my eyes. Grieve however you want, or need, but why continue to post about it. She could keep a journal, that would be a better idea, IMO.

They have stated they’ve done counseling. I hope they  still go.

Yes, it's just fodder for social media and  a bid for attention.  The worst thing is dragging the boys into something they can't possibly understand. 

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Ack!  Sorry guys. I was going back and forth between things and thingies. Google was no help so I chose wrong. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Either way, it’s still funny. 

3 hours ago, iwantcookies said:

It’s medical thingies 🤣

2 hours ago, BetyBee said:

If you want to be technical 😉

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Just now, emmawoodhouse said:

Jubilee was buried in an ammo box. She was about 17 weeks gestation, although Meech delivered her closer to 19.

I thought she said she was 20 weeks along. I have  questions about a woman delivering a stillborn... I don't mean to sound rude but I am ignorant to it because I've never known anyone to have one... but, what is done with the baby after delivery? I don't know any other way to say this, but are they allowed to leave the hospital with the baby? And does the baby have to be buried in a cemetary?  And if so, Michelle buried Jubilee in a cigar box in a cemetary? I thought there are strict regulations regarding the burial of a human body. 

Thank you in advance for answering!

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On 10/19/2021 at 5:38 PM, Westiepeach said:

I agree with everything you say.

I will bring homemade Lawson’s Chip Dip for the crackers, for those of you living in, or have lived in, NE Ohio. Meet us in the Prayer Closet. I may bring wine as well.

Omg! LOVE Lawson's chip dip!!!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Spazamanaz said:

I thought she said she was 20 weeks along. I have  questions about a woman delivering a stillborn.

The farther from the event, the longer the pregnancy lasted in Michelle's statements.  She did eventually start saying 20 weeks and stillbirth.  She had a miscarriage.  

Up until 20 weeks, one can have a burial, cremation, or regard the products of conception as medical waste.  After 20 weeks (which is why there is a distinction) then burial or cremation must be arranged.   That's the rule in most or maybe all states in the US.  

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I know Jill believes that 4 weeks is the same as full term, but there's something to be said for life experience and how that shapes ones reactions and feelings regardless of belief. She's carried 2 children to term. She currently raising two young boys, building memories and relationships with them. If she honestly, truly, felt this late period as a profound a loss as if she'd been 30 weeks--and I mean feel it in her soul, not as a "this is what I believe in the grand scheme of things" way--then she really is incredibly fanatical even by fundie standards. 

Lauren lost her first pregnancy early, and she talked about it constantly...up until she had Bella and experienced the difference. Jinger and Jessa had early miscarriages after having had children and they didn't make it a thing on social media. Jill really just comes off as attention seeking with this. 

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2 hours ago, Spazamanaz said:

I thought she said she was 20 weeks along. I have  questions about a woman delivering a stillborn... I don't mean to sound rude but I am ignorant to it because I've never known anyone to have one... but, what is done with the baby after delivery? I don't know any other way to say this, but are they allowed to leave the hospital with the baby? And does the baby have to be buried in a cemetary?  And if so, Michelle buried Jubilee in a cigar box in a cemetary? I thought there are strict regulations regarding the burial of a human body. 

Thank you in advance for answering!

Each state has their own definition of stillbirth vs miscarriage.  As noted above, the traditional definition was that any loss before 20 weeks was a miscarriage and anything after was a stillbirth. That is still the medical definition.

 Stillbirths require registration with the state; a Stillbirth Certificate instead of a Birth Certificate.  Most states also have rules concerning the disposal of the products of conception depending on whether it was a miscarriage or stillbirth.  A miscarriage does not require any paperwork to the state.  Also, at least where I live, women who receive Medicaid and ADC get a one time payment of a few hundred dollars for a stillbirth and nothing for a miscarriage to supposedly defray burial costs.

It is up to the parent(s) what will happen to the fetus after a loss.  If they want the tissue, they can have it, although, if the specimen is sent to pathology in formalin as it is with a miscarriage, it cannot be returned to them because formalin is a carcinogen and the hospital would get in trouble.  Stillborns aren't put in formalin.  Funeral homes will accept fetuses of almost any size from what I've seen although most people don't go that route unless the baby was pretty far along, late second trimester at least because it is very expensive.  Hospital pathology departments will dispose of any fetus that is not sent to a mortuary.  From what I understand, there is mass cremation and burial in most cases.

Because Jubilee was less than 20 weeks, her birth was not recorded as a stillbirth, she was considered a miscarriage.  Therefore, she didn't have to be buried in a cemetery or other designated site.

The state where I practice used to have the 20 weeks by dates line of demarcation for stillbirth, but they have loosened it up recognizing that even if the pregnancy is 20 weeks along, the fetus may have died before that.  So, a physician can declare that a fetus delivered after 20 completed weeks is a miscarriage and not a stillbirth if he/she determines that the fetus died prior to then. 

Edited by Rootbeer
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Just now, Absolom said:

The farther from the event, the longer the pregnancy lasted in Michelle's statements.  She did eventually start saying 20 weeks and stillbirth.  She had a miscarriage.  

Up until 20 weeks, one can have a burial, cremation, or regard the products of conception as medical waste.  After 20 weeks (which is why there is a distinction) then burial or cremation must be arranged.   That's the rule in most or maybe all states in the US.  

Oh ok, thank you for clarifying.  When she used the term 'stillbirth' I think I automatically thought she was further along. Because a stillbirth seems more tragic than a miscarriage, if you understand what I'm trying to convey. Both are awful, but a stillbirth would be more so. To me anyhow.  I don't want to sound callous or offend anyone, and I hope I haven't.  

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Just now, Rootbeer said:

Each state has their own definition of stillbirth vs miscarriage.  As noted above, the traditional definition was that any loss before 20 weeks was a miscarriage and anything after was a stillbirth. That is still the medical definition.

 Stillbirths require registration with the state; a Stillbirth Certificate instead of a Birth Certificate.  Most states also have rules concerning the disposal of the products of conception depending on whether it was a miscarriage or stillbirth.  A miscarriage does not require any paperwork to the state.  Also, at least where I live, women who receive Medicaid and ADC get a one time payment of a few hundred dollars for a stillbirth and nothing for a miscarriage to supposedly defray burial costs.

It is up to the parent(s) what will happen to the fetus after a loss.  If they want the tissue, they can have it, although, if the specimen is sent to pathology in formalin as it is with a miscarriage, it cannot be returned to them because formalin is a carcinogen and the hospital would get in trouble.  Stillborns aren't put in formalin.  Funeral homes will accept fetuses of almost any size from what I've seen although most people don't go that route unless the baby was pretty far along, late second trimester at least because it is very expensive.  Hospital pathology departments will dispose of any fetus that is not sent to a mortuary.  From what I understand, there is mass cremation and burial in most cases.

Because Jubilee was less than 20 weeks, her birth was not recorded as a stillbirth, she was considered a miscarriage.  Therefore, she didn't have to be buried in a cemetery or other designated site.

The state where I practice used to have the 20 weeks by dates line of demarcation for stillbirth, but they have loosened it up recognizing that even if the pregnancy is 20 weeks along, the fetus may have died before that.  So, a physician can declare that a fetus delivered after 20 completed weeks is a miscarriage and not a stillbirth if he/she determines that the fetus died prior to then. 

Thank you for the explanation. 

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9 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Actually, I don't think it reached the stage of being an embryo. I think it was still a blastocyst.

Blastocyst stage is right before it attaches itself to the womb (5 days after fertilisation). 

But it is called and embryo since the fertilisation

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I just want to give a shout out to all the posters who tactfully and thoughtfully shared their perceptions of Jill's posts about her miscarriage. Almost every post, no matter the view of the way Jill has been handling the situation, showed caring, respect and understanding of miscarriage and the different ways folks handle it. 

Edited by GeeGolly
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I think one of the things that gnaws away at Jill is that she really isn't very fecund. When the quantity of children is so valued in a society, having two kids and a dog really isn't enough. I know Jill's on birth control, but she had two very difficult pregnancies and her kids are spaced in such a way that made me think that she's not one of those women who gets pregnant without trying. This miscarriage just drives home the point. If you look at her siblings -- Josh/Anna (ew), Jessa, Joy, Joe/Kendra, they all seem to get pregnant easily. 

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3 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I think one of the things that gnaws away at Jill is that she really isn't very fecund. When the quantity of children is so valued in a society, having two kids and a dog really isn't enough. I know Jill's on birth control, but she had two very difficult pregnancies and her kids are spaced in such a way that made me think that she's not one of those women who gets pregnant without trying. This miscarriage just drives home the point. If you look at her siblings -- Josh/Anna (ew), Jessa, Joy, Joe/Kendra, they all seem to get pregnant easily. 

I guess having fewer kids is “god’s plan” for them. Hopefully they are able to embrace that and enjoy what they have.

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That photo or her and Sam at the Walmart, picking out a final resting place and hamming it up for the camera was sickening. Miscarriages shouldn’t be a spectator sport for garnering clicks and likes and her over involvement of her kids is inappropriate. Imagine next time she gets pregnant and they are worried about the baby dying and praying that god doesn’t take the baby.

 

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I mean, if any of these losses was an honest to God, legitimate stillbirth it was Joy's with Annabell. Like they actually saw and held the baby after it was delivered stillborn. Even she didn't yammer on about it for a long period of time after it happened.

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If Jill really did conceive, do any of you think that this loss was due to two emergency deliveries? Her insides were almost ripped to shreds with Israel and for some still mysterious reason, Sam was in the NICU for weeks.

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8 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

They really don't seem to see this as an option. 

Just because J'chelle "doesn't have a heart for children," they didn't see this as -- even remotely -- a sign that they shouldn't have more children. 

Jill, Jessa, and Joy have all had significant issues with their pregnancies, but they don't seem to see that as a sign to limit their family size.

These are people who see "signs from God" in every imaginable place and situation, but don't see big flashing lights, and fog horns, and red flags when they appear in the path of endless procreation.

Jill is limiting her family size. She’s been open about the fact that they were using birth control to prevent pregnancy for several years after Sam was born, and I don’t think that the fact they’re trying for a third means they’re opening the floodgates to endless procreation. A ton of my (non-fundie) friends have three kids, especially when their first two are the same gender.

Really, the only Duggar daughter/DILs I see who might rival Michelle for fecundity are Kendra, who seems on track to have 20+ kids unless something changes, and possibly Joy, although I question whether she and Austin really want zillions of kids. 

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7 hours ago, floridamom said:

If Jill really did conceive, do any of you think that this loss was due to two emergency deliveries? Her insides were almost ripped to shreds with Israel and for some still mysterious reason, Sam was in the NICU for weeks.

Why does it matter?

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