Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[GeeGolly]

I'm not getting why this is Jill's fault. First if Derick needed uninterrupted time, then he should figure it out. Second, maybe Derick thought he was some kind of special and studied as if he would pass with no problem.

[emmawoodhouse]

How ironic that he pimped out BarBri yet failed. I think he sort of took it for granted that he would pass; he seems to be a good test taker in general. 

[Absolom]

I do think he over estimated his abilities and/or under estimated the difficulty of the bar or the stringency of the grading.  The bar is a weird beast.  At least on the California bar there was a type of question that my daughter had never encountered before bar prep and has never needed the skills required to properly answer them since.  

Edited September 2, 2021 by Absolom

[merylinkid]

Yeah bar exam is hard.   You need a distraction free life.   Really.    Some people think they can just pass it without any effort since it only tests minimum competence.   BUT, you do have to put in some effort.   if Jilly is doing her clingy thing while he is trying to study, that will not help.    but no shame in not passing.   LOTS of people don't pass on the first try.   If you try to do the same thing without any changes in your study plan the next time, THEN there is a problem.

[CalicoKitty]

I wonder if he will retake it.  I can see him moving to something else.  He doesn't seem to mind changing directions.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

[MsJamieDornan]

29 minutes ago, CalicoKitty said:

I wonder if he will retake it.

Do we even know if he took it? Real confirmation that he took it in July?

[emmawoodhouse]

7 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Do we even know if he took it? Real confirmation that he took it in July?

He said he was going to take it in July, but that was several months ago. They went on vacation right afterward, indicating to me that the weight was off his shoulders, and he could relax. 

[MsJamieDornan]

1 minute ago, emmawoodhouse said:

He said he was going to take it in July, but that was several months ago.

Okay, I was wondering if he or Jill mentioned it around the time it was happening.

[emmawoodhouse]

16 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Okay, I was wondering if he or Jill mentioned it around the time it was happening.

No, they were mum, but their vacation certainly hinted that he took it. 

[Zella]

I don't remember anything about him actually taking it, but over the summer, she did post about him studying for the bar. In early June, she posted an Instagram story that threw in a Bible verse and wished him well while he was studying. The Sun has it preserved in an article.

https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/3017713/jill-duggar-cryptic-post-josh-arrest-child-porn-charges/

I don't remember when he was peddling the exam prep stuff. But I see no reason to doubt that he followed through with it. I think it's more likely he took it and failed then decided not to take it at all. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Zella

[emmawoodhouse]

He peddled the BarBri stuff late last fall. He still had a semester left at the time. I only remember because I thought he was actually doing something right by starting prep early.

[MsJamieDornan]

22 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

No, they were mum, but their vacation certainly hinted that he took it.

It's odd, Jill likes to overshare things, I assumed we would see her posting about him taking it. Complete with posters and balloons (LOL). Actually, I can even see her sharing that he didnt pass.

Edited September 2, 2021 by MsJamieDornan

[Zella]

They've been a little more guarded with his law stuff than I'd expected. I know at one point he mentioned in passing something he'd done over the summer during his degree program but it was only after the end of the summer. It will be interesting to see if they ever address this or not. 

[merylinkid]

6 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

It's odd, Jill likes to overshare things, I assumed we would see her posting about him taking it. Complete with posters and balloons (LOL). Actually, I can even see her sharing that he didnt pass.

Because potential employers check social media.   As do character & Fitness folks.    Confidentiality is a BIG THING in law.   Firms don't want to hire someone who will splash their whole lives over social media, including stuff about cases (even inadvertently).   So they probably realized they need to keep things low key.   Even in their world, he is not guaranteed a job at any firm so he has to be competive.   Considering he already comes with a ton of high profile baggage, being more circumspect and NOT making a big deal out of what every single practicing attorney has to go through is probably a good idea.

[ginger90]

This is what Derick has listed:

[Westiepeach]

Maybe the Lord will lead him in yet another direction. Der does seem to follow shiny things...

[GeeGolly]

I know therapy is way more subjective than law and I know nothing about the Bar exam, but before taking the LICSW exam, more than one person told me, don't necessarily answer certain questions based on what you've done, or would do, answer them using book knowledge.

Like I said, I know nothing about the Bar, but I can see Derick answering case studies with his own beliefs. Gender fluid children must be removed from parents. Minor child should be forced to carry pregnancy to term. Employers should be obligated to pay their volunteers (lol). 

Derick has basically been a student his whole life. This exam is where the rubber meets the road.

[BigBingerBro]

Remember the "Day in the Life of the Law Student" video they posted where he seemingly did a minimal amount of studying and Jill was all but spoon fed him while being velcro-attached at any possible moment?

Well, we all though that was just a bunch of BS, but maybe it was closer to reality.  Deertick seriosuly needs to segregate himself from the rest of the family for at least 8 hours a day and study his ass off!!

[ginger90]

7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

don't necessarily answer certain questions based on what you've done, or would do, answer them using book knowledge.

 I’ve worked with people who sucked at their job big time who went “by the book”. But testing is all about it.

 

[lookeyloo]

32 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I know therapy is way more subjective than law and I know nothing about the Bar exam, but before taking the LICSW exam, more than one person told me, don't necessarily answer certain questions based on what you've done, or would do, answer them using book knowledge.

Like I said, I know nothing about the Bar, but I can see Derick answering case studies with his own beliefs. Gender fluid children must be removed from parents. Minor child should be forced to carry pregnancy to term. Employers should be obligated to pay their volunteers (lol). 

Derick has basically been a student his whole life. This exam is where the rubber meets the road.

I took the LCSW exam in Louisiana back when it was the BCSW - and yes, I found there were usually two or three answers one could throw out right away, and then two other answers to choose from.  Sometimes one of them made the most sense, but, the other one was the "social work" answer.  It seems that Derick would have enough sense to  know his preferred answer wasn't the correct answer.  Maybe not.  Or, is there an option to not have one's results posted with the rest of them?  Maybe he chose to do that?

Edited September 2, 2021 by lookeyloo
to add something

[Jeeves]

The bar exam tests analytical and reasoning skills and the applicant's knowledge of statutes, case law, and court rules. Not the applicant's political/social beliefs and values. I found these random bar exam example questions online, do not know if they are typical of the bar exam Derick took, but do believe they give an idea of the type of multiple choice questions he probably encountered on the bar exam. The applicant's personal belief system is not relevant; the answers require the applicant to analyze the facts according to the relevant legal principles, spot the relevant issue(s), and choose the answer with the correct conclusion. In the examples given, the applicant's personal opinions about whether cops are good guys or bad guys, or whether prisoners are dirtballs, or how wonderful/terrible doctors are? Are no more relevant to the test than the applicant's knowledge of the price of pork butts on the commodity exchange or their favorite flavor of ice cream.

In the examples I linked to, the answers require familiarity at a fairly general level with certain laws or court rules, and their application to the facts. I've been retired from active law practice for a decade and my law-related work since then hasn't been in the areas of law touched on by those three questions, but I had no trouble with them. 

The bar exams are taken - and passed - by people all over the spectrum(s) of religious and political and social beliefs. I doubt that Derick graduated from law school without learning the skills tested on the bar exam and how to reason his way through to answer those kinds of questions. IOW I think that if he entered as a 1L expecting he could get a degree or law license by just spouting his religious/political opinions at anybody? He'd either learn that's not how you do it, or not pass his law school courses. 

We don't know if he choked on the essay questions or scored just a bit below the passing grade, or what happened. (When I was in law school I had an advantage over some classmates who had degrees in things like accounting, because at my small college I got a history degree by way of courses with exams that were essay questions requiring analysis - vs. rote regurgitation of facts or principles, etc. Law school was just more essay exams for me, but for a lot of students that was a new and challenging world.)

It's possible Derick would walk away from the law entirely, but he's just put in three years to get his degree and IMO it's much more likely he'll take the bar exam again. I suspect that regardless of what Jill gets up to on SM, Derick has mostly curbed his enthusiasm for over-sharing there. 

[Suzn]

2 hours ago, BigBingerBro said:

Remember the "Day in the Life of the Law Student" video they posted where he seemingly did a minimal amount of studying and Jill was all but spoon fed him while being velcro-attached at any possible moment?

Well, we all though that was just a bunch of BS, but maybe it was closer to reality.  Deertick seriosuly needs to segregate himself from the rest of the family for at least 8 hours a day and study his ass off!!

Whether Jill acted like that every day, it indicated that she had no understanding of how that looked.  She has no concept of focusing on study.  Derick should have shut down that behavior but may have found that she becomes a crying mess if he does.

[Absolom]

For anyone interested in the questions, this page at the bottom has links to previous exam questions and answers.  

[JoanArc]

Quote

Firms don't want to hire someone who will splash their whole lives over social media, including stuff about cases (even inadvertently). 

So anyway, here's the kama sutra position we non-hormonaly contracepted in last night...

[merylinkid]

2 hours ago, Suzn said:

Whether Jill acted like that every day, it indicated that she had no understanding of how that looked.  She has no concept of focusing on study.  Derick should have shut down that behavior but may have found that she becomes a crying mess if he does.

Jill has no concept of how to be alone.  She was always surrounded by a passel of kids that she was in charge of from a young age.   She went on trips with her family, she ate dinner with everyone, she slept in a dorm with her sisters.   She didn't even go off to school and was in a separate classroom.   She literally doesn't know what to do when its only herself.   She needs to get a hobby because you can only clean house and caring for two kids, one of whom is in school is not as much work as she is used.      

[MargeGunderson]

10 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Jill has no concept of how to be alone.  She was always surrounded by a passel of kids that she was in charge of from a young age.   She went on trips with her family, she ate dinner with everyone, she slept in a dorm with her sisters.   She didn't even go off to school and was in a separate classroom.   She literally doesn't know what to do when its only herself.   She needs to get a hobby because you can only clean house and caring for two kids, one of whom is in school is not as much work as she is used.      

In addition, I think she was brought up to think that being alone was a bad thing. That’s when you are most tempted to do or even just think something that you shouldn’t. Surrounding yourself at all times with like-minded people would protect you from the evils in the world.

[Cinnabon]

I imagine it’s hard to get over that. My mom was married for over 50 years when my dad died. Before that, she lived with her parents. I LOVE being alone and being around people too much makes me crazy. She still has trouble even eating dinner alone. Hopefully Jill comes to enjoy being home alone when both boys are in school.

[madpsych78]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I know therapy is way more subjective than law and I know nothing about the Bar exam, but before taking the LICSW exam, more than one person told me, don't necessarily answer certain questions based on what you've done, or would do, answer them using book knowledge.

Like I said, I know nothing about the Bar, but I can see Derick answering case studies with his own beliefs. Gender fluid children must be removed from parents. Minor child should be forced to carry pregnancy to term. Employers should be obligated to pay their volunteers (lol). 

Derick has basically been a student his whole life. This exam is where the rubber meets the road.

I took the EPPP (Examination for Professional Practice in Psychology) and the Jurisprudence exams last year. Both have lots of ethical questions and prospective psychologists had to have a good understanding of their ethics code - even if it is aspirational at times. 

Hopefully Derick will just pick himself back up and get back to studying. Several of my friends failed the EPPP the first time, although it is offered more than twice a year. And, hopefully, he will go to a quiet place to study, rather than around Jill and the boys. He needs to structure his schedule so that he has time set to spend with them, but to also make sure that he gets good quality studying in place. Because what we saw in the video did not look like good, quality studying to me.

[Lady Whistleup]

32 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I imagine it’s hard to get over that. My mom was married for over 50 years when my dad died. Before that, she lived with her parents. I LOVE being alone and being around people too much makes me crazy. She still has trouble even eating dinner alone. Hopefully Jill comes to enjoy being home alone when both boys are in school.

I knew a woman like that, she could never be alone in the house … ever. Her kids were homeschooled bc of her severe phobia of being alone. 
 

I think the Duggar’s in general have issues with schedules, time management and structure. Passing the bar requires very intense, focused studying. 

[lascuba]

I wonder just how committed Derick is to getting his license and practicing law, versus using his law degree in a way that doesn't require passing the bar (like being a law professor, for example). I have no opinion on whether he'll pass the bar eventually, but assuming he doesn't, it will be interesting to see if he continues his pattern of chasing a fantasy career only to give up on it entirely when it doesn't live up to his expectations. Does he care about the law at all outside of defending bigots and fetuses in court? I never went to law school, but the way my mind works, I could see myself giving the bar a set amount tries before going the practical route and figuring out how to use my degree another way. I'm not sure Derick has it in him to continue with law if he can't do with it what he originally wanted to do.

[xwordfanatik]

15 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Yeah bar exam is hard.   You need a distraction free life.   Really.    Some people think they can just pass it without any effort since it only tests minimum competence.   BUT, you do have to put in some effort.   if Jilly is doing her clingy thing while he is trying to study, that will not help.    but no shame in not passing.   LOTS of people don't pass on the first try.   If you try to do the same thing without any changes in your study plan the next time, THEN there is a problem.

Even the hunk (JFK Jr., not JillR's hunk!) flunked twice before finally passing the exam.  My guess is that Dillweed thought it would be a piece of cake, or at least easier than it actually was.  He seems to think very highly of himself.  Just the fact he graduated from law school is no small accomplishment.  I've heard the CPA exam is quite difficult, too.

[Westiepeach]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

I LOVE being alone and being around people too much makes me crazy.

This ^^^ so much!!! I love being alone! I am in my office by myself all day - my business is such that I very rarely have clients stop in - my work is all through email. I have longtime clients I have never met in person. I get home around 4, have quality time with my pup, and Husband gets home around 6-6:30, and by that time I will allow him to speak to me (lol!) Perfect arrangement. If I had to be around people all day, someone would get hurt.

[xwordfanatik]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

I imagine it’s hard to get over that. My mom was married for over 50 years when my dad died. Before that, she lived with her parents. I LOVE being alone and being around people too much makes me crazy. She still has trouble even eating dinner alone. Hopefully Jill comes to enjoy being home alone when both boys are in school.

I have had a similar experience as your mom.  I went from my parents straight to marriage, and never lived alone.  However, I'm a born introvert and both my parents and now my husband understood/understand I need my alone time, so I'm fortunate.  I've always been grateful for that.  Being around people overmuch makes me crazy, too.  I too hope Jill will adjust to value alone time more.  

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, lascuba said:

I wonder just how committed Derick is to getting his license and practicing law, versus using his law degree in a way that doesn't require passing the bar (like being a law professor, for example). I have no opinion on whether he'll pass the bar eventually, but assuming he doesn't, it will be interesting to see if he continues his pattern of chasing a fantasy career only to give up on it entirely when it doesn't live up to his expectations. Does he care about the law at all outside of defending bigots and fetuses in court? I never went to law school, but the way my mind works, I could see myself giving the bar a set amount tries before going the practical route and figuring out how to use my degree another way. I'm not sure Derick has it in him to continue with law if he can't do with it what he originally wanted to do.

I wonder if going to law school wasn't just a knee jerk reaction to all the JB bullshit. Derick is so immature, I can see him thinking, I'll show you. I'll become a lawyer to defends folks (who don't read the fine print) like me and I'll use your money to do it.

And now here Derick is, a few years later with a law degree. A little buyer's remorse maybe?

[Zella]

12 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I wonder if going to law school wasn't just a knee jerk reaction to all the JB bullshit. Derick is so immature, I can see him thinking, I'll show you. I'll become a lawyer to defends folks (who don't read the fine print) like me and I'll use your money to do it.

And now here Derick is, a few years later with a law degree. A little buyer's remorse maybe?

I wouldn't be surprised if some panicked flailing led him to a law degree. Not at all saying that's true of everyone with a law degree, but I did my own share of a panicked flailing a few years ago that had me exploring going to law school after I got my MA. I talked myself out of it--and in retrospect am glad I did because I don't think I'd be suited for a law career, despite being interested in the subject since I was a kid--but Derick was coming off failed ventures as a WM accountant and missionary and whatever that year of church study he did that also didn't seem to pan out. So, I do think he was feeling some pressure, even if it was just mostly internal, to do something that sticks.

I've said for a while that I was more interested in whether he actually did anything with the law degree and stuck with it since he seems to handle school situations better than real-life workplaces, which is true of some friends of mine. Failing the bar exam could just be a hiccup in the road en route to whatever that is, but since he has a well-established MO of drastically changing course when things don't pan out for him, I could also see this causing him to panic and change course again. 

[ozziemom]

1 hour ago, xwordfanatik said:

Even the hunk (JFK Jr., not JillR's hunk!) flunked twice before finally passing the exam.  My guess is that Dillweed thought it would be a piece of cake, or at least easier than it actually was.  He seems to think very highly of himself.  Just the fact he graduated from law school is no small accomplishment.  I've heard the CPA exam is quite difficult, too.

CPA exam is very difficult but you can pass it in parts so a little less pressure. Also it’s easy to find an accounting job before you are a CPA, in fact part of becoming a licensed CPA involves certain amount of hours of work experience. However lawyers need to be licensed before they can practice law in any meaningful way, so passing the bar as soon as possible is more critical. I’m a retired CPA and Ozziedad is an attorney and our exam taking experience was very different. It took me 4 tries to pass but I was also working full time. He passed on first try but wasn’t working at all, just studying. He began practicing law once he was admitted to the bar.

[Zella]

Do we know if Derick ever passed the CPA exam? 

[ozziemom]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

Do we know if Derick ever passed the CPA exam? 

I doubt he did, it’s public information too. Someone would have mentioned it if he took the exam. Didn’t he take off to Nepal when he got out of college?

[Zella]

Just now, ozziemom said:

I doubt he did, it’s public information too. Someone would have mentioned it if he took the exam. Didn’t he take off to Nepal when he got out of college?

I just checked his LinkedIn and saw no mention of CPA anything, so I suspect you're right. He lists himself as getting his bachelor's in spring 2011 and then going to Nepal in January 2012. I'm assuming the gap probably entailed the application process. 

[ozziemom]

Just now, Zella said:

I just checked his LinkedIn and saw no mention of CPA anything, so I suspect you're right. He lists himself as getting his bachelor's in spring 2011 and then going to Nepal in January 2012. I'm assuming the gap probably entailed the application process. 

Dreck seems to have lots of gaps in his school/work history. How long was he in Nepal? Was it 2013 or 2014 when he connected with the Duggars?

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, ozziemom said:

Dreck seems to have lots of gaps in his school/work history. How long was he in Nepal? Was it 2013 or 2014 when he connected with the Duggars?

LinkedIn has him there from January 2012-January 2014. 

In Touch Weekly has a timeline that says Derick actually "met" Jill before going to Nepal during Christmas 2011 while Christmas caroling and that he contacted Jim Bob shortly thereafter, so I assume they basically were in touch the entire time he was in Nepal. By the following year, he had started talking to Jill. 

https://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/jill-duggar-derick-dillard-relationship-timeline-162484/

Edited September 2, 2021 by Zella

[Absolom]

19 minutes ago, Zella said:

Do we know if Derick ever passed the CPA exam? 

Did he ever take it?  I don't think he had the required experience and don't think he actively tried to become a CPA.

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Did he ever take it?  I don't think he had the required experience and don't think he actively tried to become a CPA.

I'm thinking he never did. There's certainly no mention of it on his LinkedIn page, and he seems pretty diligent about documenting any professional experience on there. 

[Rootbeer]

12 minutes ago, Zella said:

I'm thinking he never did. There's certainly no mention of it on his LinkedIn page, and he seems pretty diligent about documenting any professional experience on there. 

I don't think he ever took it, many people with accounting degrees never go on to get their CPA.  The test is pretty rigorous, it doesn't seem like he any any specific time interval where he could've done the prep and taken it.

Also, I am pretty sure to be licensed as a CPA by the state, you would have to have actual work experience in accounting.  I think you can take the exam and pass it as long as  you meet the educational requirements (Bachelor's or better in Accounting), but you won't be able to apply for a license until you've gotten out and worked.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Rootbeer

[Trillium]

He could have realized he wasn’t prepared and put it off. I don’t know about Arkansas, but in WI you can only fail the bar I think 3 times and then you can’t ever take it again. Or that’s how it used to be. I had a former coworker that went to law school in MI but only wanted to practice in WI. She failed it 3 times and couldn’t take it again, she never practiced law. She’s in her mid 40’s now, still paying off law school and living with her parents. It was suggested to her after every failed test she take a review class and put it off until she felt confident. She wouldn’t even consider it. I used to feel bad for her but looking at her social media, she’s into Q bullshit, so I’m glad she has no law license. 
 

If Arkansas has a limit he could have realized he wasn’t prepared enough and decided to take it later. Or he failed. Doubt we’ll ever know. Hopefully it isn’t a wasted degree and he passes. Only for the kids and Jill’s sake. I don’t care about him so much because I still feel he’s an arrogant SOB  

 

[GeeGolly]

AR has no limits on how many times you can take the bar.

[Churchhoney]

18 hours ago, CalicoKitty said:

I wonder if he will retake it.  I can see him moving to something else.  He doesn't seem to mind changing directions.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

Yeah. There are a fair number of jobs where having a law degree is a nice to have but you don't have to pass the bar. You probably won't make as much money, of course. (although you might...) But it's not like you've cut yourself off from all decent employment opportunities, either.  You still learned some stuff in law school that some employers see as desirable. 

I wonder whether he's got the energy and focus to try again -- with the risk of a second failure, which I think might scare him off it, since he knows now how much it'll require for him to pass -- or whether he'll just scout out something else to do. 

Heck, about half the lawyers I know who passed the bar have quit practicing sooner or later (often sooner) to do something else. Some things for which the law degree is quite helpful; other things for which it doesn't matter. 

 A lot of people who think they want to practice law are basing their ambition on some kind of unrealistic vision of what that's like and when they get into it some find they'd rather do something that they enjoy more day to day. 

So if annoying Der decides to just move on, he'll be far from the only person doing that. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Absolom]

I know at least some states give you your score or a score range if you request it after finding out you failed.  If he's like SIL and barely missed, that's good incentive to try again.  If he was abysmally off that may give him second thoughts.  

Yes, in AR he can get his scores on the different sections and probably get copies of the questions and his answers for study and review.  He should be able to figure out exactly where he fell short and what he should do about it.  Also there exist private bar coaches in addition to the bar prep classes.  He has a lot of options about preparing for a second time and as long as he was reasonably close or had one glaring deficiency, he should be fine if he's open to changing his preparation.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Absolom

[Trillium]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

AR has no limits on how many times you can take the bar.

Looks like WI changed their limit back in 2007. My former coworker took it around 2004/2005. I don’t know if she ever knew she could take it again or what. She’s still working at the car dealership we both worked at way back then. It’s like she failed the last time and didn’t ever bother to see how she could use her degree. It was over.  Her family is very weird and enmeshed. She was the eldest of 4 siblings. Only one moved out, all the rest of them all live together with their parents. None of them married or appear to have a significant other. It’s very odd. 

 

I have a masters and can’t fathom spending money on law school and then never using it. I know that happens a lot but dang. Derick wasn’t some young straight from undergrad kid. He had been out in the world and had a family when he decided to do this. This was after his weird church program. My patience would be wearing thing if I were Jill if yet again he wanted to change direction. 
 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Trillium

[lookeyloo]

Lots of people (some I know, who are family, have law degrees, and work at high paying jobs without passing the bar.  it was never their intention.  But having a law degree comes in handy.  Several popular journalists have law degrees but are on the teevee.  I don't know if they took/passed the Bar.  One of them said he never had any intention of working in "the law" but wanted that background for whatever he decided to do.