Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[RazzleberryPie]

2 hours ago, Absolom said:

All the covenant marriage does is make it take longer to get a divorce and a hoop or two like marriage counseling.  Or as I've said before establish a residence across the state line if you don't want to wait. 

Doesn't even do that unless you're in one of the few states that recognizes them. Mostly it is just to show off, not a legal precaution. 

[Absolom]

As I said establish a residence outside the state where the covenant marriage took place.  In Jinger's case, they aren't planning to live in Arkansas so it would have been to shut Jim Bob up only. 

[Ljohnson1987]

Oh Jill. You'd know if Jessa was having twins if you did an ultrasound.  I wouldn't want Jill anywhere near me if I was giving birth. 

[Defrauder]

17 hours ago, Ljohnson1987 said:

Oh Jill. You'd know if Jessa was having twins if you did an ultrasound.  I wouldn't want Jill anywhere near me if I was giving birth. 

But you're 2 centimeters already - keep pushing!

[Barb23]

17 hours ago, Ljohnson1987 said:

Oh Jill. You'd know if Jessa was having twins if you did an ultrasound.  I wouldn't want Jill anywhere near me if I was giving birth. 

You got that right.  I wouldn't want Jill calling 911.  

Still can't believe Jessa isn't going beyond the Dr. Jill prenatal care after what she went thru with Spurgey. (Yes it's an assumption, but if she was, I'm sure we would have heard about the Dr. visits or saw it on the show.)  I know in their world they have the extra Jesus Insurance, so everything will be OK.  

It's sad Jill hasn't gotten back into midwifery since they've been home.  (Or has she & she's not sharing?)  I think it would be good for her to get out & talk & see other women. Wonder what Derick thinks? 

[Triple P]

She posted a picture of herself with a newborn to Instagram about a month ago. Her caption said something about being there to help bring the baby into the world.

[Zella]

Ugh I  was hoping she didn't take it back up and would find other hobbies that don't endanger her potential patients. :(

Edited November 19, 2016 by Zella

[RazzleberryPie]

I think Jill is best off with a hobby that does not involve anyone's health or physician well being. She refuses legitimate instruction, doesn't have the ability to process what she reads into what she already presumes, and is quick to presume she is an expert and jump to action without thinking. She has already been a part of births where bad decisions have been made and lives are put at risk.

Until she is willing to truly listen, learn and not jump the gun, Jill needs to steer clear of anything medical that requires her to lead or make a decision. I wouldn't trust her to bandaid a scraped knee or take a temperature,  let alone assist in birth. 

[LilJen]

Clearly I've been reading these forums too much. When I'm really tired I have vivid, strange dreams. My latest involved Jill giving birth. She was TERRIFIED of the whole process, and I was all, "Hey, it'll be okay, come on, let's get you a place to lie down." She gave birth to a kid who was already in footie jammies and another child who was sort of like Chang and Eng (the original conjoined twins) but without legs, also wearing jammies. She was just freaking out over the whole affair, like she had NO IDEA what to expect and thought she could run away from it.

[Sew Sumi]

On 11/18/2016 at 1:49 PM, Ljohnson1987 said:

Oh Jill. You'd know if Jessa was having twins if you did an ultrasound.  I wouldn't want Jill anywhere near me if I was giving birth. 

Jill can't do an ultrasound. She's not a trained tech. She's not a licensed midwife in any state, either. All she did with Jessa in that preview scene was a doppler.

9 hours ago, Triple P said:

She posted a picture of herself with a newborn to Instagram about a month ago. Her caption said something about being there to help bring the baby into the world.

All she could have done was observe. As I said, she's not licensed, and she's not even on the list of students anymore, so she couldn't even actively assist. Legally. That's where it gets tricky; we know how Venessa likes to play fast and loose with the law. 

[RazzleberryPie]

Any person can pick up a Doppler and use it with zero training except the insert in the box. They aren't invasive (you sit them in whatever part you're listening to)and I don't see how you could do damange with one. Jill isn't doing anything illegal by just listening with a Doppler.

If you know what your listening for, you could pick up two hearbeats with a Doppler. 

Assisting with a birth - I still wouldn't trust her. Leading a birth - aw hale to the NOOOO!!

[Sew Sumi]

Just checked again. As of last month, Jill did not use her time back in AR to gain her licensure, but she was happy to write "research papers" for bible study class. The Query woman who was apprenticing when Marcus was born is listed. 

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/programsServices/familyHealth/WomensHealth/Documents/LMW Listing updated 10.7.16.pdf

Edited November 20, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[BitterApple]

So did Jill take the test and fail, or did she just not bother to follow through? Or did JimBob discourage her from getting licensed figuring she'd get hit with a lawsuit once she botched some poor woman's delivery?

[Sew Sumi]

She "graduated" from her program when they were on the 2 months sabbatical home in the summer of '15. They went back to Danger America soon after, so it sounds like she never followed through on her final testing. You'd think she could have been studying for it with all the time she had on her hands alone in the Danger America House, and instead of taking bible classes, uhm, taken whatever tests needed to get herself officially certified. 

As it stands now, she's about as qualified as Teresa Fedosky to deliver babies, and Teresa pretty much learned everything she knew from her former doctor husband. We'll see if the Dullards go back to DA; they have to leave no later than Dec. 1, as the Honduras missioncation starts on the 3rd, IIRC. 

Raise your hand if you think this will happen....I thought not. Jill and Teresa Fedosky are going to deliver Seewald #2 in early February, if all goes well. I hope Jessa has a safe delivery this time, since it still doesn't seem as if she's gotten any real pre-natal care, aside from Jill doing a doppler and teasing the audience with twins (another recycled plot). Of course,, to them,  a safe delivery merely means that God has favored you and that you should go on having blessings every 15 months. 

[Zahdii]

As far as I know, Jill has claimed that she got her certification, but it appears that her certificate is more of a vanity degree, much like the diplomas given out by the 'Duggar Academy'.  Just something that someone printed out on their computer that has Jill's name on it.  She says she took some tests and passed them, but I don't think they were State tests.  Maybe just something given out by the group of lay midwives she hung around with back in the day.  At one point she was listed as a student on her State rolls, but she lost a lot of her training hours when that quack she was training with got in trouble for a botched delivery that didn't kill the baby, but the poor child has lifelong problems that could have been avoided if he/she had been delivered by someone with real training and experience.

In truth, Jill isn't considered any more qualified than I am to deliver a baby, and I haven't had any training at all.  The difference is, I know I shouldn't try to deliver a baby, and Jill still pretends she could.  Luckily, her 'creditentials' are useless in Danger America, and I think she knows it. 

It's for the best.  I think when it comes down to it, Jill really wouldn't want to spend hours with a heathen that doesn't even speak proper English and isn't the right kind of Christian.  I think if she could, she'd show up right as a qaualified midwife was completing the delivery, happily pose for a picture holding the newborn for her ministry page, then hand the baby off to someone else and go home to scrub the heathen germs off her body.  The problem is, in her present state Jill would need armed guards to get to the delivery and someone to check to make sure there are no unsecured shower racks lurking in the bathroom before she'd even enter the building.

SOS Ministry would be better served by telling Derick that the Danger America job has been filled and he could work instead by staying on the compound and spending his time convincing other people to be missionaries, in between his duties as bookkeeper for them or some other employer.

[GeeGolly]

A re-post of the picture and quotes from the Duggar lovers blog. Who knows if what they claim is anywhere near the truth.

Jill Dillard is now a certified professional midwife. Congratulations, Jill! To earn this certification, she has spent the past three-and-a-half years taking courses, studying for exams, doing research, completing clinicals, and working under a local midwife. The Dillards are currently in Arkansas for a few weeks, which allowed Jill to take the seven-hour exam to receive her license. 

"I am so proud of her for her diligence, perseverance, and hard work to see this long road through to its end and reaching her goal of becoming a CPM," Derick wrote of his wife on the Dillards' website. Jill, who is now "Jill Dillard, CPM," plans to use her midwifery skills on the mission field.

[Jeeves]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

A re-post of the picture and quotes from the Duggar lovers blog. Who knows if what they claim is anywhere near the truth.

Jill Dillard is now a certified professional midwife. Congratulations, Jill! To earn this certification, she has spent the past three-and-a-half years taking courses, studying for exams, doing research, completing clinicals, and working under a local midwife. The Dillards are currently in Arkansas for a few weeks, which allowed Jill to take the seven-hour exam to receive her license. 

"I am so proud of her for her diligence, perseverance, and hard work to see this long road through to its end and reaching her goal of becoming a CPM," Derick wrote of his wife on the Dillards' website. Jill, who is now "Jill Dillard, CPM," plans to use her midwifery skills on the mission field.

We discussed this a few pages back, but it's early Sunday morning and I'm too lazy to go find it. Jill did pass an exam administered by the North American Registry of Midwives (NARM). They're holding NARM certificates in that photo. NARM certifies "Professional Midwives," which are IMO far far below Certified Nurse Midwives (CNM) as to education, training, and experience. That certificate alone doesn't constitute a "license" to act as a midwife, just proof that she passed their exam and met their other requirements.

With her NARM certificate, Jill could have gone on to become a licensed lay midwife in Arkansas. But she didn't. You can find the list of licensees and apprentices on the page I linked. Jill's name is on neither list. You can also read the rules for licensure. In addition to that NARM certification she would have had to meet certain experience criteria and pass a state exam. 

BTW, I think that "lay midwife" is a more accurate term than "certified professional midwife," whatever NARM claims. CPM is IMO all too easy to confuse with CNM, and a client of a CPM may think she's getting someone with a real medical education. Which is likely to be wrong.

From the article about CNMs I linked above: "In the United States, a certified nurse midwife (CNM) is an advanced practice registered nurse in nurse midwifery, the nursing care of women during pregnancy and the postpartum period." For those who don't know, in the US an RN must have a college degree in nursing and pass the NCLEX licensing examination. (Besides RNs, in the US there are also licensed practical nurses, who don't have to have college degrees and carry out more limited support functions in a medical facility.) RNs often move on with additional education and training to specialist positions such as CNMs, physician assistants, etc. 

I went to the NARM website and plowed through a lot of material, but found nothing specific about what kind of basic education they require of their candidates for certification. It seems to be on a case by case basis, and I can not believe for a New York minute that Jill has had anything like even a high school student's exposure to math, chemistry, or biology studies. Just my opinion, of course.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Jeeves
Clarity about exams

[lascuba]

13 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

 

All she could have done was observe. As I said, she's not licensed, and she's not even on the list of students anymore, so she couldn't even actively assist. Legally. That's where it gets tricky; we know how Venessa likes to play fast and loose with the law. 

There's also a lot of really stupid fundie and/or "star"struck women out there who would let Jill be their primary midwife. I don't doubt for a second that Jill is out their delivery babies as the primary midwife. It's only a matter of time before the shit hits the fan. 

[Absolom]

Also just letting people know that exam Jill took for NARM is multiple choice and not very challenging.  I am not a trained medical person and have never studied midwifery at all.  I passed the practice test with a very high score.  A lot of the questions are extremely basic.  Jill seems to have used a correspondence school for her textbook portion of the program.

[RazzleberryPie]

I would trust a RN, CNM (college educated, NCLEX passed, hundreds of hours of clinicals in a hospital, master's degree - with a vast knowledge of anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, etc) to deliver my baby with a normal pregnancy. I'd probably still want a physician if there were a risk. 

I would not trust Jill and her certficate to over see a cat delivering in a cardboard box under a porch. 

[lulu69]

It doesn't surprise me that Jill never pursued the full credentials to be a licensed lay midwife. Everything the Duggars do displays a hack level of accomplishment. Who needs proper education, training or experience? Just observe someone a few times and become an expert! 

Bunch of morons, courtesy of KJB

[Sew Sumi]

@Jeeves Thank you for compiling the links. As I reviewed the AR site late last night, I was pretty sure the NARM exam was the one she passed but was too lazy to look for that diploma picture that confirms everything. I found the 30 page qualification list but didn't feel like poring through it ATT.

She COULD have completed testing in the last month, but being a bridesmaid in two weddings during that period, I doubt it. I don't know if they'd even mention it.Lily and Ellie's post is ignorance based on a Duggar Lie. All the leghumpers already think she can legitimately and legally be the head midwife in charge of a delivery. Jill gas never been on the list of CPMs in Arkansas. I went ahead and downloaded the list in case I felt like "debating" with a leghumper. Even being proven wrong, all I would get in return is either, "Stay out of their lives!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111" or the ever-condescending "I'll pray for you" (also used when they get schooled).

[RazzleberryPie]

Saddest part is, Jill is too blindly stupid to recognize or admit her certificate is not the same as an RN, MSN midwife. I think she's been Duggarfied and College Plussed enough that she really thinks these SOTDRD printed certificates equal some sort of degree in the medical field.

[BitterApple]

19 minutes ago, RazzleberryPie said:

Saddest part is, Jill is too blindly stupid to recognize or admit her certificate is not the same as an RN, MSN midwife. I think she's been Duggarfied and College Plussed enough that she really thinks these SOTDRD printed certificates equal some sort of degree in the medical field.

It doesn't help that the leghumpers proclaim her to be "the same things as a nurse." I've read comments like that multiple times on the Duggars FB, as well as on Pickles.

[Sew Sumi]

Yeah, that's what I was getting at that even posting PROOF that Jill is none of those things will just get you a rude response back from those people. 

And Derick claiming seven hours of exams? Bull to the shit. Unless she's just THAT stupid...

[RazzleberryPie]

19 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

It doesn't help that the leghumpers proclaim her to be "the same things as a nurse." I've read comments like that multiple times on the Duggars FB, as well as on Pickles.

Those people are probably also the ones who think nurses take temperatures and fluff pillows, and that's it.

[Absolom]

I wonder if AR gave any sanctions to the students who were with Venessa during the problematic delivery.  I don't know if they wiped all their experience or only credited part of it.

[Sew Sumi]

Great question, but I don't know if we'll ever get an answer unless there's something in the bylaws that I was looking at last night. Given the timing of that unfortunate incident, Jill was almost likely there, unless she had TLC commitments to fulfill. I want to say it happened in early '14, before she became engaged. She was still attending births after she returned from Nepal. 

[Sew Sumi]

Section 300 of the following document proves that Jill has to pass the AR state exam in order to become a lay midwife. She CAN be called a CPM with her NARM degree, but she cannot practice with it. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything about losing clinical hours if some of those hours/births were attained after an incidence that would cause said preceptor's license to be revoked. 

She would have also had to have at least rubella vaccination and a TB test. 

Section 301.04 #12 (gross negligence) is the glaring reason Venessa's license was revoked, especially since in the 400 section, patient protocol is detailed, including testing for Strep B between weeks 35-37. This was the problem with the birth that caused her to have her license revoked. 

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/aboutadh/rulesregs/laymidwifery.pdf

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

Yeah, that's what I was getting at that even posting PROOF that Jill is none of those things will just get you a rude response back from those people. 

And Derick claiming seven hours of exams? Bull to the shit. Unless she's just THAT stupid...

I was allowed 4 hours for my LICSW and used 2 1/2. Maybe only Jill needed 7 hours for the exam.

[Sew Sumi]

8 hours ago, lascuba said:

There's also a lot of really stupid fundie and/or "star"struck women out there who would let Jill be their primary midwife. I don't doubt for a second that Jill is out their delivery babies as the primary midwife. It's only a matter of time before the shit hits the fan. 

When something happens, because it's not a matter of "if," we know starstruck fundie families wouldn't DARE sue a Duggar. But can the state step in and sue her for malpractice (ie. practicing without a license in this case) and bar her from EVER taking the AR exam for licensure? 

[lascuba]

15 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

When something happens, because it's not a matter of "if," we know starstruck fundie families wouldn't DARE sue a Duggar. But can the state step in and sue her for malpractice (ie. practicing without a license in this case) and bar her from EVER taking the AR exam for licensure? 

I have no idea about AR specifically, but generally speaking if the families don't sue, there's no consequences for the "midwives." (And most families can't sue even if they want to, because no lawyer is going to take a case when there's no malpractice insurance and therefore no real money to be won.) The state won't sue at all, but if there are enough bad outcomes of which they're informed,* they might eventually take steps to bar them from practicing in that state...which means they'll hop state lines to practice.  

*And the really infuriating part is that a LOT of these families who go for these midwives are so into the birth woo that they cover for the midwives...they get to the hospital and refuse to name them, or lie about what happened at home. 

[Natalie68]

23 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Jill can't do an ultrasound. She's not a trained tech. She's not a licensed midwife in any state, either. All she did with Jessa in that preview scene was a doppler.

All she could have done was observe. As I said, she's not licensed, and she's not even on the list of students anymore, so she couldn't even actively assist. Legally. That's where it gets tricky; we know how Venessa likes to play fast and loose with the law. 

Now I don't want anyone hurt.  Believe me.  But can you imagine the brouhaha if she WERE attending a birth that went VERY wrong?  I believe its a matter of time.

[Sew Sumi]

3 hours ago, lascuba said:

I have no idea about AR specifically, but generally speaking if the families don't sue, there's no consequences for the "midwives." (And most families can't sue even if they want to, because no lawyer is going to take a case when there's no malpractice insurance and therefore no real money to be won.) The state won't sue at all, but if there are enough bad outcomes of which they're informed,* they might eventually take steps to bar them from practicing in that state...which means they'll hop state lines to practice.  

*And the really infuriating part is that a LOT of these families who go for these midwives are so into the birth woo that they cover for the midwives...they get to the hospital and refuse to name them, or lie about what happened at home. 

Yeah, I've heard that some of the crazies will cover for these doulas or "midwives" like Jill who aren't really licensed to practice, or even shysters like Venessa, saying that they had unattended births. I was just wondering if another entity could take action because the coroner still has to sign a death certificate, and if he or she suspects something went wrong, is there recourse for the dead baby?

@Natalie68 I said what you said about four posts up. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when as far as Jill's interference in birth situations is concerned. All one has to do is look at her own botched birth plan. 

[ariel]

4 hours ago, Natalie68 said:

Now I don't want anyone hurt.  Believe me.  But can you imagine the brouhaha if she WERE attending a birth that went VERY wrong?  I believe its a matter of time.

I too believe it's matter of time.  I'm sure there's an attorney that would take a case pro bono if Jill screws up a home birth.

[DangerousMinds]

It very well could be Jessa. What will Bin do if Jessa is hurt or seriously disabled, or even die attempting this next home birth? 

[Defrauder]

If Jill assisted at a Jessa home birth and something went wrong I would wonder if it was on purpose.  Probably not but I don't trust Jill's authenticity or genuine affection for anyone, not even Iz.  I don't think she's matured past being a Duggar robot and she doesn't even know what real feelings are.  She's someone who can go to another country to save those who are as she thinks of them 'spirituality dead'.  Like they're less than she is, and without her on a mission they'd be dead.  It's horrible.  Those very people probably have more genuine love and spirituality than she could ever imagine having.  

[cdp73]

16 hours ago, RazzleberryPie said:

Those people are probably also the ones who think nurses take temperatures and fluff pillows, and that's it.

Sadly, I wouldn't even trust her to do those things correctly.

[Churchhoney]

On 11/20/2016 at 9:35 AM, Jeeves said:

I went to the NARM website and plowed through a lot of material, but found nothing specific about what kind of basic education they require of their candidates for certification. It seems to be on a case by case basis, and I can not believe for a New York minute that Jill has had anything like even a high school student's exposure to math, chemistry, or biology studies. Just my opinion, of course.

 

Well, I think that, in the states where they're allowed to work, all they're supposed to do is have memorized in detail a list of the signs and symptoms of birth complications and keep a careful watch on the mother for any of those signs to appear, while generally supporting and comforting her through what happens in a very normal very medically simply labor. Then the second crucial requirement is for them too know that when they see any of those signs that the case has a complication of any kind, they must immediately alert a trained medical professional that they already have on call to immediately take over overseeing the birth.

To do that as the states want, you probably need to have a good handle on some specific knowledge, keep very alert for the signs of possible trouble you've memorized, and be willing to follow the clear instruction to always have medical professionals present or on call and to immediately turn the case over to them and get out of the way. And you probably don't need any other academic knowledge, even at the high school level, or even a lot of thinking skills beyond just the ability to notice the signs that tell you when a problem may be arising. 

I think the problem with probably the vast majority of those who train as "CPMs," like Jill, isn't knowledge but attitude. They're expected under the state laws to recognize that they have only the skills needed to assist in births that are so medically uncomplicated that they can basically happen unassisted and that they have only the very narrow scope of knowledge required to recognize when complications might be present and in no way have the skills or the knowledge needed to manage or make any judgment calls about those complications. And then they're also expected to realize that, based on that, they must have trained medical staff that they can quickly call on and they must turn the case over to them immediately if any hint of a complication appears.

Trouble is, a lot of the people who get those CPM certifications have no intention of recognizing their limits in this way and are arrogant enough to make judgment calls all over the place, including by completely overriding their training and ignoring signs of trouble altogether, like the meconium that got ignored in Jill's case, to name just one example we've heard about.

They're like a dental hygienist who decides to perform a root canal as long as he's in there or a hospital dietician who decides to nip into the OR and administer some anesthesia. The training they get makes them suitable for the job that the states who license them intend for them to do. But unlike people in most jobs a heck of a lot of them completely disdain those limiting rules. They get the training and license with the full intention of ignoring the rules because, for some religious or other "philosophical" reason, they believe that the limitations are unwarranted and that they're every bit as capable of handling the whole job, no matter its complications, as a medically trained person. I think it's a character problem and massive delusional thinking that are the issue.

[Annb67]

On 11/20/2016 at 8:44 AM, GeeGolly said:

A re-post of the picture and quotes from the Duggar lovers blog. Who knows if what they claim is anywhere near the truth.

Jill Dillard is now a certified professional midwife. Congratulations, Jill! To earn this certification, she has spent the past three-and-a-half years taking courses, studying for exams, doing research, completing clinicals, and working under a local midwife. The Dillards are currently in Arkansas for a few weeks, which allowed Jill to take the seven-hour exam to receive her license. 

"I am so proud of her for her diligence, perseverance, and hard work to see this long road through to its end and reaching her goal of becoming a CPM," Derick wrote of his wife on the Dillards' website. Jill, who is now "Jill Dillard, CPM," plans to use her midwifery skills on the mission field.

Hmmmm....I guess Jilly Muffin Medicine Woman got distracted on the mission field by falling shower curtains 

[DangerousMinds]

32 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, I think that, in the states where they're allowed to work, all they're supposed to do is have memorized in detail a list of the signs and symptoms of birth complications and keep a careful watch on the mother for any of those signs to appear, while generally supporting and comforting her through what happens in a very normal very medically simply labor. Then the second crucial requirement is for them too know that when they see any of those signs that the case has a complication of any kind, they must immediately alert a trained medical professional that they already have on call to immediately take over overseeing the birth.

 

 

So all of us here could probably be just as capable as Jill in this capacity with just a few hours of memorization. That's my takeaway.

Edited November 21, 2016 by DangerousMinds

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, DangerousMinds said:

So all of us here could probably be just as capable as Jill in this capacity with just a few hours of memorization. That's my takeaway.

Yeah. But then I don't think there would be anything at all wrong with that if it isn't exercised by delusional nutcases. Plenty of babies get born without medical help and are fine because a lot of pregnancies are uncomplicated, especially if people are getting pre-natal checkups.  I don't see that there'd be anything wrong with licensing a class of worker to do exactly this. It can save money in a system and keep people out of really pricey facilities attended by really pricey workers if they don't need to be there.

The trouble comes since it seems that most of the people who do it now are doing it for ideological reasons. Most of those doing it don't believe in medicine, period, or are arrogant enough to think that God has anointed them to do stuff they were never trained to do and that therefore the trained people should be spurned. That's where the problem comes in. And states have opened themselves up for it mainly because a lot of the women are conservative Christians. I expect that if there had been a mainly hippie atheist- or a Buddhist-led movement to get this level of birth helper licensed, it never would have happened. But it seems to have been spurred mostly by a political constituency that a lot of lawmakers wanted to please.

On the other hand, I think most of their clients believe exactly the same stuff they do. So should it not be those people's right to use the forms of assistance they want? It's not dissimilar from the Christian Science issues. If Christian Science beliefs just kill or maim the adult who holds them, then we don't object. By law, Medicare even has to pay for Christian Science nursing facilities and such, although the care they provide is quite different from -- and, most would say, inferior to -- the care provided elsewhere. But adults are considered capable of making their own decisions about those things.

The issues arise because Christian Science kids didn't sign up for it and there's other, presumably better, care available. Ditto for the ideological midwives. The babies didn't sign up for it. That, to me, is the only reason it's an issue.

But I really don't think states who license it thought that they'd be licensing a lot of people who'd simply ignore all the terms of their licensure. That's really what's happened, though, it seems to me.

And, as far as I know, Jill didn't even get a state license, did she? So whatever she's doing, she's just doing it on an entirely rogue basis, completely outside the system, maybe? The Duggs were on state lists when they were first training in this stuff, but haven't they dropped off since then, with all or part of the background essentially annulled by the state because they were "training' with someone whose own state licensure was ripped?

Edited November 21, 2016 by Churchhoney

[DangerousMinds]

If they really don't believe in medicine and that outcomes are  "God's will," then they should stay out of hospitals when something goes wrong.

[Sew Sumi]

28 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Yeah. But then I don't think there would be anything at all wrong with that if it isn't exercised by delusional nutcases. Plenty of babies get born without medical help and are fine because a lot of pregnancies are uncomplicated, especially if people are getting pre-natal checkups.  I don't see that there'd be anything wrong with licensing a class of worker to do exactly this. It can save money in a system and keep people out of really pricey facilities attended by really pricey workers if they don't need to be there.

The trouble comes since it seems that most of the people who do it now are doing it for ideological reasons. Most of those doing it don't believe in medicine, period, or are arrogant enough to think that God has anointed them to do stuff they were never trained to do and that therefore the trained people should be spurned. That's where the problem comes in. And states have opened themselves up for it mainly because a lot of the women are conservative Christians. I expect that if there had been a mainly hippie atheist- or a Buddhist-led movement to get this level of birth helper licensed, it never would have happened. But it seems to have been spurred mostly by a political constituency that a lot of lawmakers wanted to please.

On the other hand, I think most of their clients believe exactly the same stuff they do. So should it not be those people's right to use the forms of assistance they want? It's not dissimilar from the Christian Science issues. If Christian Science beliefs just kill or maim the adult who holds them, then we don't object. By law, Medicare even has to pay for Christian Science nursing facilities and such, although the care they provide is quite different from -- and, most would say, inferior to -- the care provided elsewhere. But adults are considered capable of making their own decisions about those things.

The issues arise because Christian Science kids didn't sign up for it and there's other, presumably better, care available. Ditto for the ideological midwives. The babies didn't sign up for it. That, to me, is the only reason it's an issue.

But I really don't think states who license it thought that they'd be licensing a lot of people who'd simply ignore all the terms of their licensure. That's really what's happened, though, it seems to me.

And, as far as I know, Jill didn't even get a state license, did she? So whatever she's doing, she's just doing it on an entirely rogue basis, completely outside the system, maybe? The Duggs were on state lists when they were first training in this stuff, but haven't they dropped off since then, with all or part of the background essentially annulled by the state because they were "training' with someone whose own state licensure was ripped?

Churchie, on the previous page, I posted a list of licensed lay midwives in AR (a higher designation than Jill's CPM). They have passed the state exam. Jill hasn't, thus she is not in the list, effective as of early October. With two weddings coming up for her as a bridesmaid, there's no way she has taken the exam since the list was last updated. She would be definitely "going rogue" if she delivers babies of starstruck leghumpers. So yeah, if she stays stateside (we should know by the last week of November... Honduras missioncation starts 12/3), and I think she will, Jessa will get a free homebirth. Good luck with that, Jilly Muffin.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[Churchhoney]

23 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

If they really don't believe in medicine and that outcomes are  "God's will," then they should stay out of hospitals when something goes wrong.

Yep. But they don't actually believe a lot of things they say they believe. It's easy to "believe' something before push comes to shove. That's probably demonstrated about 10 million times around the U.S. every day of the week, I expect.

[ariel]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Yep. But they don't actually believe a lot of things they say they believe. It's easy to "believe' something before push comes to shove. 

Especially when the Duggar girls are giving birth at home & it doesn't go as planned.

[Malvina]

[Sew Sumi]

Just coming to post that. Looks like a)Derick's not teaching today and b)holy shit, his hair is LONG!

[BitterApple]

I know a lot of people don't like it, but I think the homeless hipster look is working for Derick. It seems true to his personality at least.

[queenanne]

Having Jill there... is probably preferable to someone who has never been through or contemplated the birthing process.

That's as high as I'm willing to go though.