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Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

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3 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Lots of online discussion board legal scholars are predicting that Josh's lawyers will   advise him to plead guilty. He has until July 2 or something to change his plea.

Some people are looking for potential loop holes though just to see if the defense can mount any sort of response. Of course that's difficult to do when not even half the facts are known publicly.

There was something about the original local officer - who first got the ping about suspicious activity. He did not have an NIT (network investigative technique) warrant or capability or something. I have yet to really understand all that -- but they say it could lead to saying the initial search was not justified. From what I read - vERY LIMITED UNDERSTANDING - a TOR browser sort of scatters IP addresses as a way to cover what its doing. And the only way to get the correct IP is with this NIT technology which is like legal hacking.  So if the local officer didn't have NIT, perhaps the initial IP address was wrong. Obviously we know it wasn't wrong, but they could use this to argue that the initial search was not legal- even though of course we know that they actually got two legal search warrants afterward. I'd be grateful if anyone could explain what this means. 

All that being said, I agree that hopefully Josh will at least get the minimum of 5 years PLUS extra for the under 12 yrs old stuff.

So I have not done a CP case in a few years.  I know how they found out who had hashes of CP (and I won't share that nugget because it's an investigative tool), but these federal agencies tend to run on policy.  I know our shop was very very focused on making sure things were done legally.  You can make a mistake on some of this stuff and the court gives you leeway.  I do not know about the NIT in particular that is being discussed.   But I can tell you that I pretty much have to get permission to sneeze in my lab.  You don't tend to have people doing things that will get you thrown out of court.  Of course, they will argue this.  It's about all they have.   However, remember, they also said he was using bitorrent, I believe.  And that is not scattering IP addresses.  So we won't know the all the details until they come out in court  

Did any of the people testifying mention this aspect of the case?

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Could Smuggar enter an Alford plea (a guilty plea that still claims innocence but acknowledges that the evidence is enough to convict)? It looks like that is acceptable in federal court. 

Edited by MargeGunderson
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8 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

I know what epochal time in Unix is... call me next time you need a juror LOL

The joke we had in my lab was we would quit if we ever had to explain epochal time in court.  It's something that they always put on certification tests, but you NEVER see in real life.  And there I was, in front of a giant screen walking the jury through where the value was found and converted and blah blah.  I almost laughed at one point, it was so silly.  Noted you are on my list of future jurors!

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2 minutes ago, zoomama said:

bitorrent

 

what does that mean?

Bittorent, bitlord, they are filesharing programs.  I thought someone mentioned he was also using that to locate porn, as well as Tor. I could be wrong.

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8 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Did any of the people testifying mention this aspect of the case?

The defense attorney previewed that NIT question as well as the other possible strategy - the admissibility of the iphone and/or the "constitutional issue" of not calling the lawyer. No one knows more than the these little preview mentions in the write ups. It's all speculation as to possible strategies. Most people who've analyzed it based on these hints - still say the govt.s case is strong and any possible strategy is just smoke. 

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6 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

Could Smuggar enter an Alford plea (a guilty plea that still claims innocence but acknowledges that the evidence is enough to convict)? It looks like that is acceptable if federal court. 

I can't see the feds ever offering to do that in a CP case.  The Feds know they have him dead to rights.  I've never really seen an Alford plea in any of the cases my group has worked.

 

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2 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Bittorent, bitlord, they are filesharing programs.  I thought someone mentioned he was also using that to locate porn, as well as Tor. I could be wrong.

you are right. he was using both (and watching adult versions as well as CP)

Edited by Tuxcat
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Admin - if this is not allowed, please delete.

I saw this post from May 10 on Duggars W/O pity.  Taking it with a grain of salt but things could get even more f’ed up:

“Another Duggar is being investigated by Homeland Security and there is going to be another arrest. Anna is moving off the property into a home some one close to her and Josh owns. There is a huge divide of the Duggar's that still believe Josh was set up. Stay tuned...

Neighbor”

 

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34 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Wow. What the fuck are his lawyers doing? They should be telling him to plead guilty now.

My guess is reviewing the case file for any technicality to get anything (evidence or charges) thrown out.  It's what JB is paying them to do - find a loophole for Josh to slip through.  If they can't find anything, they'll move on to working out the best plea deal that they can for Josh.  

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12 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

If I can explain epochal time in Unix to a jury in a murder trail, they should be able to present this with ease.  Our programs pull out meta data. So there's a report that shows the image, the camera it was taken with, sometimes the make/model/serial number of camera (or phone), the timestamps, and the geolocation.  They just have to put it up on a screen and walk them through it.  I had to show people a Unix time stamp, convert the number to a date using another tool, then adjust it for daylights savings time, and voila, the suspect was at the house at the time of the murder doing google searches.  This is much more straight forward.

I'm used to scenarios where the expert comes in to testify about data from cell phone towers and there winds up being some discrepancy about how these two towers in the area of a location have data that presents in this format, but this other tower that's also in the area of the location presents data with some minute difference, such as something about the way time or date is displayed, a legal battle breaks out, the judge decides to send the jury out so they can settle the dispute, jury gets sent out for ten minutes that becomes 45 because the battle gets fierce and beyond petty, the jury comes back for 25 minutes, then it's time to send everyone to lunch and it all eventually gets twisted and the jury can easily wind up bored and with a very skewed understanding of how reliable the evidence is.   That would just cover what's happening with a cell phone in this case, not even addressing the matters of the horrors happening with the computer.

The more straightforward and direct this evidence can be presented to the jury the better because it leaves little opportunity for the defense to make it seem shaky or razzle dazzle anybody with distraction. 

  

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6 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Plus what is she going to do?   She has no education and 6 (7) kids?   How is she going to support that many kids by herself? She has a free house right now and her kids' needs are met.     If she toes the party line and stands by her man, the idiot and his even more idiotic wife will continue to support her and the kids.   Heck they might even convince TLC to give her her own show about coping as a single parent after Idiot Jr is sent to real people prison.

TLC shouldn’t offer Anna a show unless she decides to leave that sicko, no one wants to see her at home with the kids while she tells them “how much we love daddy” and counting down the days for him to get out of jail 🤮 I’ll pass. 

1 hour ago, Hpmec said:

Anna has been raised to believe it's her mission in life to satisfy her man and pop out as many babies as she can during her fertile years. She has never shown any inclination to do otherwise. She has wealthy in-laws who will continue to house and feed her and her offspring no matter what. There's no way she'll flee or seek a divorce. She's in it for the long haul. If and when Josh winds up behind bars, she'll wait for him, and the minute he's set loose, she'll be ready for another pregnancy. As far as the charges go, she probably doesn't want to know the grim details. Satan is messing with her husband, and prayer is the answer. 

If Counting On gets cancelled her in laws aren’t gonna be so rich anymore.

46 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

This is the best news I've heard all day. I watched two episodes of Dateline last night while folding laundry that I just picked at random and both ended in inexplicable not guilty verdicts and it got me thinking that I really hope they have Josh dead to rights because juries are stupid. It sounds like they do and I'm so very glad. Now I really hope they just plea it out because his siblings don't deserve a long, drawn-out trial. I assume at least some of the family might have to testify too. I hope he does the right think and spares them that. 

Why do I have a feeling that if Josh goes down they all do? 

39 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yeah he was taking pictures of a wreck that happened outside of the carlot and texting relatives about praying for the victim while he was downloading this shit, and as a result, he is admitting he was there and his phone was geolocating him at the carlot. 

Haha Josh you’re going down hopefully for a loooooong time too! 

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7 minutes ago, Tigregirl said:

Admin - if this is not allowed, please delete.

I saw this post from May 10 on Duggars W/O pity.  Taking it with a grain of salt but things could get even more f’ed up:

“Another Duggar is being investigated by Homeland Security and there is going to be another arrest. Anna is moving off the property into a home some one close to her and Josh owns. There is a huge divide of the Duggar's that still believe Josh was set up. Stay tuned...

Neighbor”

 

WOW!  i cant even fathom that there are more family involved in this mess.  i had to lock myself out of here for a few days cuz it was too overwhelming and triggering.  i just cant imagine an uglier scenario than how it is already. 

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26 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

The defense attorney previewed that NIT question as well as the other possible strategy - the admissibility of the iphone and/or the "constitutional issue" of not calling the lawyer. No one knows more than the these little preview mentions in the write ups. It's all speculation as to possible strategies. Most people who've analyzed it based on these hints - still say the govt.s case is strong and any possible strategy is just smoke. 

More than likely the NIT that was mentioned was regarding the Playpen investigation back in 2014.  That was a very specific instance where the Feds found a CP server, took it over for a few weeks and used NIT to retrieve information about the user's computer, which allowed them to get IP addresses and so on.  The debate about that was that it wasn't legal for one judge to issue hundreds of search warrants in different jurisdictions.    

That said, I haven't read anything that said a NIT was used.  It could be that the defense is just trying to shade the activity of a government figuring out who the bad guys are with anything that will stick.  Do the feds have other NITs? Probably but the issue here is that the main case was where the government had control of a server with CP and they targeted people actively downloading CP.  The government can't just NIT random people.  Or NIT people who are on a darkweb site downloading porn.  They have to have the control to push out the NIT.  And also, that NIT was based on one version of Firefox.  So, I have no clue what the defense is talking about because if Josh was using a torrent site, he was very visible to the feds without a NIT.  I'm also not up on the latest techniques that some super duper 3 letter agencies have.  And trust me, they have them. It takes a while to filter down to us lowly agencies.   I still think Josh was seen using a method that has been upheld in court thousands of times.

edited to add:  

These were points from the reddit thread:

In May of 2019, there was an investigation of a bittorrent program that noted activity in the upper northwest area of AR involving distribution of known CP images

Explanation of peer-to-peer file sharing networks. Known by law enforcement as commonly used to distribute CP

Bittorrent is a version of peer-to-peer sharing

On May 14 and 15, detective was able to download two files

So, there's no discussion of TOR mentioned...yet.  If he was using a filesharing program and the normal techniques were used to view the files and download them (I assume from Josh?) then that's been in court a million times and hasn't been thrown out, in my experience.  I'm not seeing this as a NIT issue.  As for the iPhone, if their warrant said to seize/search the iPhone, he has no complaint.  They didn't stop him from calling his attorney, they stopped him from using his iPhone to call his attorney.

Edited by hathorlive
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37 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

Yea I know you are right but it still sucks for his sisters. I am also horrified that he will get to sit in the trial and see that video again. I don't know that he's ashamed enough to balance the fact that it will turn him on. That just makes me want to vomit. All of this makes me want to vomit. Ugh - now I'm getting angry. 

In cases that I'm familiar with that issue is normally a really bloody legal argument for the exact reason you outline.   It's caught between the right of the accused to see and hear all evidence against them and not wanting to gratify a potential predator.   If this thing went to trial it would be very interesting to understand how they address the issue in this specific case.

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3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

In cases that I'm familiar with that issue is normally a really bloody legal argument for the exact reason you outline.   It's caught between the right of the accused to see and hear all evidence against them and not wanting to gratify a potential predator.   If this thing went to trial it would be very interesting to understand how they address the issue in this specific case.

In my experience, let the perp have his five minutes of excitement, because the jury will be sickened, disgusted and out for blood.  That means a bigger sentence.

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As much as I abhor Smuggar... and I do... I really, really hope he does not choose to go down the self-harm route.

However, I do see this Duggar house of cards folding. Fast.

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2 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

In my experience, let the perp have his five minutes of excitement, because the jury will be sickened, disgusted and out for blood.  That means a bigger sentence.

Reminds me of how Jodi Arias peeked through her fingers at her crime scene photos while pretending to be upset. 

Edited by Tabbygirl521
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9 minutes ago, zoomama said:

WOW!  i cant even fathom that there are more family involved in this mess.  i had to lock myself out of here for a few days cuz it was too overwhelming and triggering.  i just cant imagine an uglier scenario than how it is already. 

I don’t think any other family is involved with this, I reckon Josh is thinking if I’m going to jail someone’s going down with me. 

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2 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

As much as I abhor Smuggar... and I do... I really, really hope he does not choose to go down the self-harm route.

However, I do see this Duggar house of cards folding. Fast.

Me too.

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22 minutes ago, Tigregirl said:

Admin - if this is not allowed, please delete.

I saw this post from May 10 on Duggars W/O pity.  Taking it with a grain of salt but things could get even more f’ed up:

“Another Duggar is being investigated by Homeland Security and there is going to be another arrest. Anna is moving off the property into a home some one close to her and Josh owns. There is a huge divide of the Duggar's that still believe Josh was set up. Stay tuned...

Neighbor”

 

Why would Anna move when her biggest supporters live just yards from her? 

And who else would be investigated? Wasn't it shown that Smuggar was alone in the shack while downloading the files?

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1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

Me too.

I agree. And what are those kids with families to support (and future families to support) going to do when the money runs out and JB isn't in control anymore? 

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so now it's a family member involved? what happened to the never named or arrested sleazy/scum bag ex con??

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1 minute ago, hathorlive said:

In my experience, let the perp have his five minutes of excitement, because the jury will be sickened, disgusted and out for blood.  That means a bigger sentence.

I've heard prosecutors from that unit here advocate that idea in casual conversations, but I'm not very clear exactly how far that is allowed to fly in reality.   Judges here are hyper conservative about how they run these kinds of cases in the event they do go to trial.   It's not uncommon to actually have a day or two of jury selection, sometimes even seat a jury and then have the predators finally wave the white flag when it's clear there is no exit, they're going to trial, and say they want to take a plea.    We used to have one judge who had a rule that once a jury was empaneled no pleas would be accepted.

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8 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

In my experience, let the perp have his five minutes of excitement, because the jury will be sickened, disgusted and out for blood.  That means a bigger sentence.

He'd better hope he's sitting pulled up to a table because it won't play well if the jurors see him get a hard on during filth like that.

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1 minute ago, 3girlsforus said:

He'd better hope he's sitting pulled up to a table because it won't play well if the jurors see him get a hard on during filth like that.

IDK about there, but here counsel tables have a front panel down to the floor specifically so jurors or potential jurors will be unaware if a defendant is in fact in leg irons.   They must be dressed in street clothes and not jail uniforms by law, cannot have their hands shackled in view of jurors and only come and go from the courtroom when the jury is not present to observe, but they can and do sit at counsel table throughout trial in leg irons in many cases.   

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5 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

And who else would be investigated? Wasn't it shown that Smuggar was alone in the shack while downloading the files?

My guess is JB might have some sort of ancillary connection to all of this. 

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2 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

My guess is JB might have some sort of ancillary connection to all of this. 

That would be sweet.

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3 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

My guess is JB might have some sort of ancillary connection to all of this. 

That was my first thought. 

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1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

Put a fork in him, he's done!

Okay, so it took me a few days to catch up, but I read an account that someone attending the bond hearing typed up.  And I have to say that Josh is screwed.  I have NEVER, EVER in 17 years of doing this been able to put a suspect behind the keyboard like they have in this case.  Josh's geolocation activity with his phone will do him in.  I've never had this kind of collaboration of activity and still gotten mostly guilty verdicts in federal court.    The text messages saying he'd be late, while downloading CP is golden.  As is the picture of the wreck outside the porn shack taken while he's downloading porn.  It's golden.  I don't see how they can lose this case.  It will be very hard for Josh to say that another person came in the tiny shack, sat at his computer and downloaded CP while Josh was in the same place at the same time.

Is there a transcript of the bond hearing?

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My guess would be JB playing fast and loose with financials.   Even knowing the car lot got raided some time ago, my first thought in regard to hearing a Duggar could be arrested would be financial and JB first suspect.    I did not suspect Josh had a predatory compulsion towards children. 

Financials would at least be snark worthy, not this horror.

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1 minute ago, cereality said:

Is there a transcript of the bond hearing?

There's the Redditor who basically transcribed everything. @Zella has been posting links to excerpts. 

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11 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

My guess would be JB playing fast and loose with financials.   Even knowing the car lot got raided some time ago, my first thought in regard to hearing a Duggar could be arrested would be financial and JB first suspect.    I did not suspect Josh had a predatory compulsion towards children. 

Financials would at least be snark worthy, not this horror.

Can the feds do anything related to the financials though?  The warrants for Josh's crimes would be specific to his crimes.  I can see there being evidence of some kind of fraud on the computers which were taken in, but wouldn't those need their own warrant for seizure?

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When this first went down and he had been arrested but the initial hearing hadn't happened, I remembered coming on here and saying while I would "prefer" it be financial or tax fraud, I had a feeling it wasn't and that it was a sex crime because Josh and bc there's just something off about him -- since he was like a preteen. Those types of issues don't just go away because you got a "talking to" by some cop friend or went to religious camp or shaved your head. But now IDK what to make of this unsubstantiated rumor re another Duggar being involved.

Unless there were MORE gross things happening in their home sexually that they've hidden, I just don't have that same feeling about any of the other brothers as I do Josh. I just can't see them into kiddie porn or sleeping with prostitutes or whatever. So now I feel like if anyone else is implicated it's either a more technical reason (i.e. it was their laptop; they knew/should have known this was occurring but ignored it) OR more likely financial fraud -- a sweep of the electronics revealed financial/tax fraud. And with that I don't see the other brothers being smart enough to pull that off -- if something like that is happening, it's JB and IDK if he'd even share the knowledge with his other sons; I feel like it would be JB + Josh with Josh being the implicated party who doesn't really get it and JB running a scam.

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12 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

My guess would be JB playing fast and loose with financials.   Even knowing the car lot got raided some time ago, my first thought in regard to hearing a Duggar could be arrested would be financial and JB first suspect.    I did not suspect Josh had a predatory compulsion towards children. 

Financials would at least be snark worthy, not this horror.

This could certainly be the case but I wouldn't think Homeland would have anything to do with that unless it was information they found and are turning it over to local law enforcement to proceed. So if information is that Homeland is investigating someone else in the family, I would tend to lean toward not true. But if the information is that there is another investigation and the info that it's Homeland is the wrong part... then yea, I can believe that. I do doubt there are others in the family being investigated for child porn. Josh isn't being charged with producing or distributing the porn, which I could see being a group activity, but being a sicko in a shack downloading vile stuff is a solitary act. 

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50 minutes ago, FizzyPuff said:

TLC shouldn’t offer Anna a show unless she decides to leave that sicko, no one wants to see her at home with the kids while she tells them “how much we love daddy” and counting down the days for him to get out of jail 🤮 I’ll pass. 

If Counting On gets cancelled her in laws aren’t gonna be so rich anymore.

 

 

Anna better be shopping around to WE. I don't think TLC will take her unless there's major disavowing of Josh. WE on the other hand took in Mama June and made it "from not to hot" in the title after TLC decided she went over the line even for them. If Anna doesn't divorce Josh, no network will go near her. If Josh isn't convicted there might be some wiggle room for the other Duggar's but Anna will probably have the hardest time because it's their kids who will be around him more than the others.

 

But Anna has leverage against the Duggar's because she's the one who could most likely get the biggest deal for a tell-all if she were to to break free so even cheap-ass JB may pay her off.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Can the feds do anything related to the financials though?  The warrants for Josh's crimes would be specific to his crimes.  I can see there being evidence of some kind of fraud on the computers which were taken in, but wouldn't those need their own warrant for seizure?

It doesn't have to be information that came from Josh's computers or anything about the raid.   Transactions can even have taken place since the bond hearing that might not have attracted attention before, but some detail stands out for notice to someone now.   Information could have been turned over in relation to the bond hearing that revealed something of interest and someone went digging.

Maybe nothing's going on and the rumor about another potential arrest is just idle speculation.   

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3 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Can the feds do anything related to the financials though?  The warrants for Josh's crimes would be specific to his crimes.  I can see there being evidence of some kind of fraud on the computers which were taken in, but wouldn't those need their own warrant for seizure?

Fed lawyer - yes different warrants. But if you've taken hardware to search for CP pursuant to a warrant and in doing so you see some shady financials, you bring in the US Atty's Office's (or DOJ's) financial fraud prosecutors to see what -- if anything they want to do; if they want to pursue it, you go back to court and seek out a different warrant. If that search turns up anything, that's a new grand jury to get another true bill of indictment -- which either becomes a superseding indictment if it's against Josh (you just add charges to his) or a new indictment if it's against a new person.

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1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

It doesn't have to be information that came from Josh's computers or anything about the raid.   Transactions can even have taken place since the bond hearing that might not have attracted attention before, but some detail stands out for notice to someone now.   Information could have been turned over in relation to the bond hearing that revealed something of interest and someone went digging.

Maybe nothing's going on and the rumor about another potential arrest is just idle speculation.   

Agree that this may be nothing but idle speculation from redditers who are HOPING for more.

I'd find it hard to believe if we see charges in say days that it's anything occurring AFTER the bond hearing. (A) I think JB is not totally stupid like his son, so if he's doing something, he's stopped at least until the attention died down. (B) It's next to impossible timing wise to have a transaction happen around the time of the bond hearing, it gets turned over to USAO, they have enough time to get warrants, investigate, seat another grand jury and bring a new charge. I mean if it's something like that it's going to take weeks or likely months to come to light. It's more likely something that was already happening at the time of the arrest but they hadn't investigated it completely enough to get an indictment on it yet so they went ahead and grabbed Josh on the charges they had, continued investigating this other thing and now (if it's true) maybe they're ready to act on whatever this is.

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5 minutes ago, cereality said:

When this first went down and he had been arrested but the initial hearing hadn't happened, I remembered coming on here and saying while I would "prefer" it be financial or tax fraud, I had a feeling it wasn't and that it was a sex crime because Josh and bc there's just something off about him -- since he was like a preteen. Those types of issues don't just go away because you got a "talking to" by some cop friend or went to religious camp or shaved your head. But now IDK what to make of this unsubstantiated rumor re another Duggar being involved.

Unless there were MORE gross things happening in their home sexually that they've hidden, I just don't have that same feeling about any of the other brothers as I do Josh. I just can't see them into kiddie porn or sleeping with prostitutes or whatever. So now I feel like if anyone else is implicated it's either a more technical reason (i.e. it was their laptop; they knew/should have known this was occurring but ignored it) OR more likely financial fraud -- a sweep of the electronics revealed financial/tax fraud. And with that I don't see the other brothers being smart enough to pull that off -- if something like that is happening, it's JB and IDK if he'd even share the knowledge with his other sons; I feel like it would be JB + Josh with Josh being the implicated party who doesn't really get it and JB running a scam.

I did know Josh was sick and had sexual compulsions.   The fact he had an isolated upbringing with his family and the adult porn/cheating scandal made me think his initial predation was merely preying on the only victims he could access at the time and that his drive had aged with him.   Discovering his drive was children is disturbing to say the least.

2 minutes ago, cereality said:

Fed lawyer - yes different warrants. But if you've taken hardware to search for CP pursuant to a warrant and in doing so you see some shady financials, you bring in the US Atty's Office's (or DOJ's) financial fraud prosecutors to see what -- if anything they want to do; if they want to pursue it, you go back to court and seek out a different warrant. If that search turns up anything, that's a new grand jury to get another true bill of indictment -- which either becomes a superseding indictment if it's against Josh (you just add charges to his) or a new indictment if it's against a new person.

Would they risk muddying the waters by pursuing any financials against Josh until they had tied the bow on the child crimes?   The child allegations are the absolute priority, yes?

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2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I did know Josh was sick and had sexual compulsions.   The fact he had an isolated upbringing with his family and the adult porn/cheating scandal made me think his initial predation was merely preying on the only victims he could access at the time and that his drive had aged with him.   Discovering his drive was children is disturbing to say the least.

Would they risk muddying the waters by pursuing any financials against Josh until they had tied the bow on the child crimes?   The child allegations are the absolute priority, yes?

Yes they'd risk it. So much of what DOJ/DHS/USAOs pursue is about whatever their priorities are at this time -- so yeah CP is a priority but it's not like financial crime isn't, so yeah they'd pursue both not like on TV where you try to put a bow on one tidy case.

It may not even be against Josh in which case you just have Josh on the 2 CP counts. If it's like one random financial fraud charge against Josh, you tack that on to a superseding indictment but say it's against Josh + another Duggar; then you try to make a motion to the judge for a split trial (assuming no plea) -- Josh's trial on CP goes; then the trials against Josh and whoever else for financial fraud goes. That way a jury empaneled on CP isn't suddenly wading thru tax records being like WTF!? Not confusing the jury is key.

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52 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Why would Anna move when her biggest supporters live just yards from her? 

And who else would be investigated? Wasn't it shown that Smuggar was alone in the shack while downloading the files?

Yep - that’s why I’m hesitating on attaching any truth to it.  The poster was Anonymous and signed the post as a neighbor.  I’ll wait for the actual news story to come out.

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2 minutes ago, cereality said:

Yes they'd risk it. So much of what DOJ/DHS/USAOs pursue is about whatever their priorities are at this time -- so yeah CP is a priority but it's not like financial crime isn't, so yeah they'd pursue both not like on TV where you try to put a bow on one tidy case.

It may not even be against Josh in which case you just have Josh on the 2 CP counts. If it's like one random financial fraud charge against Josh, you tack that on to a superseding indictment but say it's against Josh + another Duggar; then you try to make a motion to the judge for a split trial (assuming no plea) -- Josh's trial on CP goes; then the trials against Josh and whoever else for financial fraud goes. That way a jury empaneled on CP isn't suddenly wading thru tax records being like WTF!? Not confusing the jury is key.

Trying any financials with the child allegations was what I was asking about.   I definitely agree that it's a bad idea to try to run a jury through both in the same proceedings, which was my point about the bow.

No way they're ever trying a child sexually abusive matter and an unrelated financial matter against one defendant with a financial matter against yet another defendant.  

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1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Why would Anna move when her biggest supporters live just yards from her? 

And who else would be investigated? Wasn't it shown that Smuggar was alone in the shack while downloading the files?

Maybe someone showed him how to do the split hard drive and TOR for the purposes of illegal activities. I’d guess Ben or Jed

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2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Wow. What the fuck are his lawyers doing? They should be telling him to plead guilty now.

I cannot stand Josh but is it possible he didn't actually know what was in those files when he downloaded them?  For instance, could he have been hoping to see two teens making out and watched the video later, horrified by what he was seeing instead!

Shame on me for trying to think better for Josh.

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3 minutes ago, NotthebadVictoria said:

Maybe someone showed him how to do the split hard drive and TOR for the purposes of illegal activities. I’d guess Ben or Jed

How could either side prove that Smuggar had help? 

1 minute ago, louannems said:

I cannot stand Josh but is it possible he didn't actually know what was in those files when he downloaded them?  For instance, could he have been hoping to see two teens making out and watched the video later, horrified by what he was seeing instead!

Shame on me for trying to think better for Josh.

No matter, he still downloaded it and possessed it. 

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5 minutes ago, NotthebadVictoria said:

Maybe someone showed him how to do the split hard drive and TOR for the purposes of illegal activities. I’d guess Ben or Jed

we have no evidence or reason to believe that is true

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My first reaction to reading about the latest rumor was to dismiss it as click bait.  

But then I recalled that there were whispers about Josh molesting his sisters and the Oprah connection a few years before the truth came out.  At the time those rumors were widely dismissed, but when the news broke in 2015 everyone remembered them.

It does seem like every time there is a rumor about the Duggars there is some truth to it.

 

Edited by 3 is enough
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3 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

How could either side prove that Smuggar had help? 

 

Didn’t we see a rumor that Josh was trying to throw someone under the bus? That and the new speculation about another arrest is where I came to that guess. 

4 minutes ago, crazy8s said:

we have no evidence or reason to believe that is true

The speculation that there is another arrest coming and that he was trying to implicate someone else is where I think it’s possible. Purely speculation on my part, but at this point anything is possible. 

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Scarlett45

Guidelines for the thread:

Charges have been made public that specifically name possession of Child Sexual Abuse Material, discussion of charges are allowed. However, discussion of victims, or possible victims (and their identities) related to these charges are NOT ALLOWED
We are not here to provide content for ghoulish rubbernecking- there is no need to discuss the graphic details related to these charges, the moderators are not going to police posts for graphic content- posts will be removed and violators will be warned. Do not attempt to circumvent this guideline with spoiler tags.

You MAY discuss the 2015 scandals, and any statement a NOW ADULT victim has made public as previously instructed, but speculation on unnamed victims or minor victims is NOT allowed. 

Jokes, asides, memes etc regarding the sexual assault of anyone, INCLUDING Josh Duggar are not allowed.

As of May 10, 2021: Please respect the privacy of the Reber family, discussion of their social media postings, public statements to the press/court testimony are acceptable. Discussion of their activities on their property, their schedule, where/how they run their errands not acceptable. Again, discussion of social media/court statements/public statements to the press- FINE, "So and So saw the Rebers standing in their yard/grocery shopping/getting gas"- NOT fine. 

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