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Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

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4 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I don't think Josh was ever as sheltered or monitored as the Duggars claimed their kids were. I suppose the younger kids and especially the girls may have been more confined, i.e. "sheltered," with limited outside exposure, but not Josh.

Josh was already of elementary school age when his parents went all fundie/Gothard. He'd been to school (I think kindergarten if not first grade). He was old enough to notice differences in their life. 

Also, Josh was JB's "accountability partner" when JB served in the legislature from 1999 - 2002. Josh would have been 11 to 13 years old then, and JB took him everywhere. IIRC reading a comment that one legislator thought JB brought Josh to meetings on subjects which seemed inappropriate for a kid Josh's age to attend and the kid's presence made many people uncomfortable. 

I knew that Josh was considered the Duggar's crown prince, but my eyes were opened to how much special treatment he got, at home and at church, when I recently listened to this podcast on YouTube by a guy who's two years younger and who knew Josh as a teenager, from about 2004 through at least the Duggars' move into the TTH. His parents were fundies and took the family to JB's "home church" which is how he mer the Duggars. I'll call him the "narrator."

Josh was poised and confident when talking with adults, more so than the typical teen boy. Way back before the TTH, when they were jammed into a small stinky house and his siblings were being homeschooled using PCs cobbled together from parts from a bunch of old computers that JB had grabbed when a college was going to discard them? Josh had his OWN brand new fancy iMac, and a nice camcorder. His parents were encouraging him to develop skills in videography. He was definitely already tech savvy. 

The narrator was attending their church when Josh was outed as having viewed porn on Jim Holt's campaign computers. Josh was punished, which was all dealt with before the congregation. The narrator said that Josh was viewed by his parents and the church elders, as someone with potential to go out into the world and to great things (politically) for worshippers of the correct Jesus. The party line was that because Josh was designated for such a special mission and had such potential, that Satan was essentially attacking the church by tempting Josh into those sins, so they were standing by him, and they couldn't let Satan win by taking what they would consider a "worldly" view of the situation.  Or letting the evil outside world in on the facts.

If you think the show producers and TLC had no clue that something was up with Josh even that far back, you should listen to the final sections of that podcast (it's on YouTube but it's audio only). I can see JB manipulating things as much as he could, but I think the producers had to be willfully ignoring things if they really didn't figure out something was up and it wasn't good. 

tl;dr  - I doubt that Josh was ever sheltered, cloistered, or isolated from the evil outside world even if his younger siblings might have been. All that purity talk his parents did on the show was aspirational bullsh*t. I don't doubt that they did their best to imprison their younger children, especially the daughters, but I don't think Josh had to worry much about having limits placed on him. 

According to the Reddit AMA guy who knew Josh, when they were teens, Josh got a lot of very fancy computer equipment from JB. He had a brand-new Mac and all kinds of stuff to do video editing -- way back in the early 2000s, when he was around 15 or 17. And that stuff wasn't cheap. Josh was really into the fancy computer stuff he had -- and who knows what he was really thinking about when he was heavily into video editing? 

Getting fancy tech seemed to be part of his kit as the golden child/man of CHristian destiny who was going to make a huge splash in the world on behalf of Jim Bob, Gothard, and all other right-thinking people, probably. ....

He seems to have asked for the fancy stuff and gotten it. And we know he was pretty weasely by that time, given the way he acted surrounding the molestations. So with a bunch of cutting-edge tech and all the information required to run it, he could have picked up a lot of stuff even then and gotten a head start....He was about 17 when the "sin in the camp" thing happened, so he certainly was thinking about the possibilities for sneaking porn even on other people's computers -- and he may have been thinking beyond that, too. 

The reddit guy also describes an incident where Josh's computer stuff was being discussed and one of the adult men in the church asked what filter was on it....and reddit said that he believed he saw Josh gulp and look a bit stricken.....So he may have been keeping with all the porn possibilities on the internet all along .... while, I suppose, utterly ignoring the ways you might use a computer to actually make money.....

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5 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

while, I suppose, utterly ignoring the ways you might use a computer to actually make money.....

Remember premier productions? Josh doesn’t!

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I remember one episode of 19KAC where they showed his computer closet room and a sign on the door saying "no rugrats allowed".   

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2 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

Remember premier productions? Josh doesn’t!

Duggar Studios? They still wear those shirts.

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3 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Duggar Studios? They still wear those shirts.

No, it is the production company that Josh owned Wayback when he was first married.  I think it was intended to produce propaganda and election ads for various political candidates. It never really went anywhere. But it was definitely something Jim Bob wanted him getting into. I guess the car lot was a better fit for the show and Josh’s personality.

 

edit: it’s still listed on josh’s linkedin. Duggar Studios came later. It was the cargo cult used for filming in between shows.

Edited by JoanArc
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Yeah, I now seem to recall that Duggar Studios was more of a thing with the Howlers, but they were using stuff that was maybe left back at the TTH by Smuggar. 

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1 minute ago, JoanArc said:

No, it is the production company that Josh owned Wayback when he was first married.  I think it was intended to produce propaganda and election ads for various political candidates. It never really went anywhere. But it was definitely something Jim Bob wanted him getting into. I guess the car lot was a better fit for the show and Josh’s personality.

So Josh's parents pretty much handed him, on a plate, the opportunity to develop a video production business, and it went nowhere. Did Josh even try? Did he try a little and not find instant success and give it up? I wonder. Because when JB gave him that car lot to run it seemed that Josh had no enthusiasm for it. IIRC that was clear from the footage on the show at the time. 

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Did Josh even try? 

 I doubt any credible politician would want to use a 20 year old kids iMac to produce video concepts that their campaigns woulddepend on.  Not that it stoppedJim Bob for funding at all 

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5 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

 I doubt any credible politician would want to use a 20 year old kids iMac to produce video concepts that their campaigns woulddepend on.  Not that it stoppedJim Bob for funding at all 

I still remember the typo-laden website Josh had for this business. Yeah, I'm sure that attracted a robust clientele.

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I remember the sad website too.  I think Jessa was told to have him make the invitations for her wedding which were pitiful, IIRC.

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1 minute ago, 3 is enough said:

I remember the sad website too.  I think Jessa was told to have him make the invitations for her wedding which were pitiful, IIRC.

Yes, those were really sad. That was in the early days of long grass and weathered barn photography.

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56 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Yes, that was mentioned in his podcast that I listened to and mentioned in my post. He described that scene, where Josh visibly gulped. He (the narrator) said that afterward he and his dad talked about Josh's reaction since it was so odd, although Josh had gone on to explain the filter stuff on the computer. 

What really struck me in that part of his podcast, was the contrast between Josh's workstation with the shiny new iMac and the mess of junky old computers his siblings had to use.  The narrator said that JB said that the local college was going to discard a bunch of old computers so he'd grabbed them. He said the boys had managed to assemble some working computers from all that stuff but the room was like rows of old computers and computer parts. So all the kids had to use those old computers while Joshie lorded it over everybody at his shiny fancy new iMac. 

But of course I'm sure all the Duggars were so godly that nobody ever had any resentments over that disparity. /sarcasm

In the Zillion Kids and Moving In special, didn't Smuggar have his own room, too? (I swear  I remember that.) It was the "editing studio" or some BS, but it was Smuggar's alone. Of course, his nine brothers got a big dorm room to share, and his five sisters, who did all the work and were raising the kids, got a smaller dorm that would clearly be too small very soon. 

There were times over the years when I thought Jim Bob didn't like Smuggar much, especially a few moments in the On the Road special when Jim Bob's tone on speaking to his son was odd. But there were many more times when it was clear that Smuggar was #1. I wonder if Jim Bob regrets that now. 

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8 minutes ago, Heathen said:

In the Zillion Kids and Moving In special, didn't Smuggar have his own room, too? (I swear  I remember that.) It was the "editing studio" or some BS, but it was Smuggar's alone. Of course, his nine brothers got a big dorm room to share, and his five sisters, who did all the work and were raising the kids, got a smaller dorm that would clearly be too small very soon. 

There were times over the years when I thought Jim Bob didn't like Smuggar much, especially a few moments in the On the Road special when Jim Bob's tone on speaking to his son was odd. But there were many more times when it was clear that Smuggar was #1. I wonder if Jim Bob regrets that now. 

Yes! He even said something like "No rugrats allowed." He was always an asshole.

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6 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Also, Josh was JB's "accountability partner" when JB served in the legislature from 1999 - 2002. Josh would have been 11 to 13 years old then, and JB took him everywhere. IIRC reading a comment that one legislator thought JB brought Josh to meetings on subjects which seemed inappropriate for a kid Josh's age to attend and the kid's presence made many people uncomfortable. 

IIRC, wasn't Josh discovered to be using a computer in the legislative offices to view porn even then?  

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1 minute ago, Quilt Fairy said:

IIRC, wasn't Josh discovered to be using a computer in the legislative offices to view porn even then?  

I think it was during a campaign. He was about 16 then, so a little after the time he was at the legislative offices.

But I would not be surprised to learn he was caught doing this at other times that they kept quiet. 

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14 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

IIRC, wasn't Josh discovered to be using a computer in the legislative offices to view porn even then?  

I wonder about what kind of porn he was viewing. We all assumed (I think) that it was just garden variety porn, but while I doubt it was child porn, it may have been disturbing.

It's possible that Josh may have sexualized dominance and cruelty. That would explain the description of the adult porn star who says Josh raped her, and the interest in the CP images. He doesn't seem to be a full-on pedophile: he certainly has never made any effort to be around children like becoming a "youth minister" or "mentoring" any children. He seems to be barely aware of his own children.

I think he might like to engage in, and view, sexual acts between unwilling participants where the man forces himself on a victim.

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19 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think it was during a campaign. He was about 16 then, so a little after the time he was at the legislative offices.

But I would not be surprised to learn he was caught doing this at other times that they kept quiet. 

Yes, it was Jim Holt's campaign in 2004. They blamed his loss on "sin in the camp."

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7 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I think he might like to engage in, and view, sexual acts between unwilling participants where the man forces himself on a victim.

I believe you are right. In fact, I noticed in the summary I read on Reddit, it seemed like the agent who testified at the bond hearing specifically made a point of noting that the porn sites he was frequenting were associated with rape. Of course, I'd rather read what the agent's exact words were than the summary of it, but it does seem like a point that law enforcement noted.

Edited by Zella
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I don't know if it was mentioned in this thread that Joy & Austin put a statement on their Instagram stories.  It was discussed in the Joy/Austin thread.

Edited by Gemma Violet
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7 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I'm not sure if any of you lurk on Reddit, but this is an interesting read. This person used to monitor sex offenders and gives his/her opinion on why they think Josh will violate his release conditions prior to trial. There's no triggering details, for those who are trying to avoid that sort of thing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/n7y9n3/i_used_to_supervise_high_risk_sex_offenders_i/

I used to do legal transcription and had something like this. The man was an addict and couldn’t stop even at work, even after having been caught before. It had nothing to do with children though. 

It’s hard to imagine that Josh isn’t in a similar situation. Hopefully he is being carefully watched. 

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9 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

Yes, those were really sad. That was in the early days of long grass and weathered barn photography.

Hey progress! Now they only have the long grass.  :)

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14 hours ago, Jeeves said:

The narrator said that Josh was viewed by his parents and the church elders, as someone with potential to go out into the world and to great things (politically) for worshippers of the correct Jesus. The party line was that because Josh was designated for such a special mission and had such potential, that Satan was essentially attacking the church by tempting Josh into those sins, so they were standing by him, and they couldn't let Satan win by taking what they would consider a "worldly" view of the situation.  Or letting the evil outside world in on the facts.

And this is why there will be no plea deal.   They think the Right Jesus is on their side and will protect them.   Accepting a plea deal would be 1) acknowleding they were wrong and Josh is not the Chosen One and 2) allowing Satan to win.   They will take this to trial convinced "God will show the jurors the truth."

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1 hour ago, merylinkid said:

And this is why there will be no plea deal.   They think the Right Jesus is on their side and will protect them.   Accepting a plea deal would be 1) acknowleding they were wrong and Josh is not the Chosen One and 2) allowing Satan to win.   They will take this to trial convinced "God will show the jurors the truth."

I wonder just how strongly, if at all, JB now believes in Josh's God-given special destiny. IIRC at the time the teenaged (16 or 17) Josh was busted (not by the law but by Jim Holt) for looking at porn on campaign computers, the Duggars may still have been running The Church of Jim Bob Duggar in the Duggar house. So the men of the church (the ones who get a voice, don't forget that wimmen preaching in church is a traditional no-no for Baptists) would have already been aligned with JB's views on things. And ready to give the Most Favored Eldest Son the benefit of the doubt and their protection.

There's been a lot of water under a lot of bridges since those days. Josh had a golden opportunity to make a name for himself and be a Godly leader of Christ's people, when he went to FRC - and just blew it up instead with the Ashley Madison scandal.

I wonder how many folks JB could find right now who believe Josh STILL has some terrific career ahead of him as a God-chosen leader in this world, if JB even still believes that himself. I think there are folks like the Rebers who are ready to "help" Josh as a matter of helping a fellow believer in Christ. They probably think that Satan has been at work in the situation, but I wonder if they view Josh as someone extra-important or special in worldly terms, or just a guy who's really effed things up and needs to be put back on the right path. 

It's one thing to go along with a belief that a 17 year old guy has promise and potential to do great things, and to handle a sin like watching [legal] porn within the church as an "all of us vs. Satan" matter. It's another to still view a 33 year old man who's blown up chance after chance, including a nationally visible job, and is now facing criminal charges of this type, as needing some kind of special treatment because God has chosen him to be a special Christian leader. 

I agree with the post in another topic to the effect that people could believe that Satan was at work in Josh's life but also think he should be held legally accountable for these charges if they are true. I don't know who besides his family still think Josh is so specially appointed by God that he should not be held legally accountable for his actions. 

Edited by Jeeves
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Josh is always smirking!  It's annoying to see that misfit being continuously coddled!

He'll do it again.  Why not!  He's able to do terrible things due to the enabling of Josh Dugger!

That's the sin.  The enabling of a 33 year old sex addict!

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Because like many of you, TV is where I learn about law or order, I'm wondering about these last 18 months. Have they been tracking Josh's computer use during that time? Or once they have evidence do they need to stop?

I'm thinking about how law enforcement taps phones of suspects. It seems they can do that with enough probable cause. And they don't always stop when they first get evidence because they want more to make the case stronger.

It seems very likely Josh has problems and I think it would be hard for him to go 18 months without a fix, even knowing the DHS were onto him. Or maybe he used legal porn to calm his urges?

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59 minutes ago, WinnieWinkle said:

  And I can only imagine how seriously pissed off his siblings are right now.  At least the ones who have two working brain cells.  They've spent their entire lives kowtowing to this slug and being told he's better than they are and it's been one salacious scandal after another.  Topped off with THIS?  I guess the parents and Anna will never admit he's anything but perfect (at least not for public consumption) but I hope his siblings make it clear to him that he's disgusting.

I think "slug" is a great word choice!

Josh has been handed opportunity after opportunity to develop skills, create a business, run a business, help a political movement - and he seems to have done f*ck-all except laze around, browse porn, preen in public for photo opps with politicians and VIPs, cruise for adultery partners, and worse. His disinterest in running that car lot was obvious from the TV series. He probably liked being up in front of people and schmoozing when he was at FRC, but I wonder how long he'd have lasted if he hadn't blown it up with the Ashley Madison scandal. I doubt he was really bringing in donors or extending support beyond their base, and I'm sure he wasn't educated to the level of being able to research and write position papers or the other content that FRC churned out.

He's always seemed arrogant and also lazy and low-energy. 

Definitely, a slug. 

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That car lot was nothing more than a little business Boob set up to make Pest look like he worked.  It makes you wonder if they ever made a profit.

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8 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

That car lot was nothing more than a little business Boob set up to make Pest look like he worked.  It makes you wonder if they ever made a profit.

I was also really shocked by how much freedom Josh had there. It was like since they had monitoring software on his computer, they didn't feel the need to really keep an eye on him otherwise. So, he was allowed to work by himself and could even claim he was working late, and nobody seemed to suspect he was up to something. I'd envisioned him on a much shorter leash. 

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2 minutes ago, Zella said:

I was also really shocked by how much freedom Josh had there

Well keep in mind, that set-up was pre-scandal was made public.  Of course the family knew about his molestations but by that point it was all hush hush and they assumed he was past it all.  Little did they know.  

The really telling scene was when Josh announced he was taking the job in DC and moving away.  MEShell looked almost horrified.  Granted she probably knew about it prior to the filming, but her "acting" certainly seemed genuine.  They knew that if his "past" was ever revealed, it would be all over.  It didn't take long.

Just so many bad decisions one after the other.

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1 minute ago, BigBingerBro said:

Well keep in mind, that set-up was pre-scandal was made public.  Of course the family knew about his molestations but by that point it was all hush hush and they assumed he was past it all.  Little did they know.  

The really telling scene was when Josh announced he was taking the job in DC and moving away.  MEShell looked almost horrified.  Granted she probably knew about it prior to the filming, but her "acting" certainly seemed genuine.  They knew that if his "past" was ever revealed, it would be all over.  It didn't take long.

Just so many bad decisions one after the other.

Oh I meant his freedom he was allowed in 2019 when he was downloading what he was now charged with. The agent testified in the bond hearing that texts from Josh that day said he made excuses to stay late and that he was by himself. By that point, the molestations had been made public, the Ashley Madison thing had been outed, an adult film star had accused him of rape, and he had had multiple Jesus Jail stints. 

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14 minutes ago, Zella said:

I was also really shocked by how much freedom Josh had there. It was like since they had monitoring software on his computer, they didn't feel the need to really keep an eye on him otherwise. So, he was allowed to work by himself and could even claim he was working late, and nobody seemed to suspect he was up to something. I'd envisioned him on a much shorter leash. 

Taking the kindest view possible of them (so, you know, totally out of character for me), it's likely that they're so convinced of their own philosophy that they honestly believed that he'd repented and changed so a short leash wasn't necessary. There's nothing fundies love more than a sinner publicly repenting and recommitting to their faith. Their naivete would be sad if they weren't such awful people.

9 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

Well keep in mind, that set-up was pre-scandal was made public.  Of course the family knew about his molestations but by that point it was all hush hush and they assumed he was past it all.  Little did they know.  

The really telling scene was when Josh announced he was taking the job in DC and moving away.  MEShell looked almost horrified.  Granted she probably knew about it prior to the filming, but her "acting" certainly seemed genuine.  They knew that if his "past" was ever revealed, it would be all over.  It didn't take long.

Just so many bad decisions one after the other.

I really don't think any of them were worried about that at all. JB and Michelle started the TLC specials in the middle of Josh's punishment for the molestations. The past being revealed was never a concern.

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2 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Taking the kindest view possible of them (so, you know, totally out of character for me), it's likely that they're so convinced of their own philosophy that they honestly believed that he'd repented and changed so a short leash wasn't necessary. There's nothing fundies love more than a sinner publicly repenting and recommitting to their faith. Their naivete would be sad if they weren't such awful people.

I really don't think any of them were worried about that at all. JB and Michelle started the TLC specials in the middle of Josh's punishment for the molestations. The past being revealed was never a concern.

Yeah I think you are right that he had really sold them on the idea he had changed. Not enough for them to remove Covenant Eyes but enough for him to be allowed a considerable degree of freedom. 

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Mrs. Reber is just going along with taking Josh in because her headship decides such things. Ugh. She doesn't sound happy at the prospect of having Josh taking up residence, and who could blame her. I hope she won't be stuck watching and entertaining him during the day. She'll end up feeling responsible if things don't go well, and Josh is probably sneakier than the Rebers realize. 

The way JB moves money around, the car lot at least broke even, whether Josh did a single day of real work or not. 

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I wonder how much money Covenant Eyes is losing after Josh let everyone know how easy it is to outwit it. I bet their elves are busy in the workshop trying to come up with new coding and new ad copy. "Oops we fixed it!"

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I'm only an occasional dabbler in this thread.  Could someone bring me up to date about Josh's visits to Jesus Jail?  I remember when Josh came to one up here in Illinois (Rockford, IIRC) after he left the FRC because of the Ashley Madison reveal.   But what was the second visit for?  Was it at the same place? 

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Just reading another book and saw a quote that to me, sums up the Duggars and others in their cult. Paraphrasing- the more you invest in a set of beliefs, the more you resist evidence that suggests you are wrong. You don’t give up, you double down. 

So the fact that Josh was alone so much suggests that JimBoob believed Jesus jail was a success. And Anna believed it too.

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1 hour ago, BigBingerBro said:

That car lot was nothing more than a little business Boob set up to make Pest look like he worked.  It makes you wonder if they ever made a profit.

Exactly and the fact that Josh felt comfortable downloading CP at a place of business is proof positive nobody ever came in there. 

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my question was who would ever go there for a car. I mean if you wanted a car from a duggar Jed! had the other car lot.

The little toll booth office on a corner with a sign that says no keys, titles or cash kept onsite would make me never go there.

Jed! at least bothered to get fake reviews. Lots of "Local Guides" aka fakes - David Waller, Laura, Dudley Dooright (Justin) Caleb Williams..... Carlin Bates got a car from him.

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6 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I wonder just how strongly, if at all, JB now believes in Josh's God-given special destiny. IIRC at the time the teenaged (16 or 17) Josh was busted (not by the law but by Jim Holt) for looking at porn on campaign computers, the Duggars may still have been running The Church of Jim Bob Duggar in the Duggar house. So the men of the church (the ones who get a voice, don't forget that wimmen preaching in church is a traditional no-no for Baptists) would have already been aligned with JB's views on things. And ready to give the Most Favored Eldest Son the benefit of the doubt and their protection.

There's been a lot of water under a lot of bridges since those days. Josh had a golden opportunity to make a name for himself and be a Godly leader of Christ's people, when he went to FRC - and just blew it up instead with the Ashley Madison scandal.

I wonder how many folks JB could find right now who believe Josh STILL has some terrific career ahead of him as a God-chosen leader in this world, if JB even still believes that himself. I think there are folks like the Rebers who are ready to "help" Josh as a matter of helping a fellow believer in Christ. They probably think that Satan has been at work in the situation, but I wonder if they view Josh as someone extra-important or special in worldly terms, or just a guy who's really effed things up and needs to be put back on the right path. 

It's one thing to go along with a belief that a 17 year old guy has promise and potential to do great things, and to handle a sin like watching [legal] porn within the church as an "all of us vs. Satan" matter. It's another to still view a 33 year old man who's blown up chance after chance, including a nationally visible job, and is now facing criminal charges of this type, as needing some kind of special treatment because God has chosen him to be a special Christian leader. 

I agree with the post in another topic to the effect that people could believe that Satan was at work in Josh's life but also think he should be held legally accountable for these charges if they are true. I don't know who besides his family still think Josh is so specially appointed by God that he should not be held legally accountable for his actions. 

Well, I don’t want to get political but we can see extremely flawed and apparently unrepentant people in public life who still appear to be idolized by many. It’s quite the puzzle.

imagine the ego it takes to assume that someone is extra super special, just because they happen to be YOUR firstborn. Crazy. It also just occurred to me that Josh was born pre-cult indoctrination of the parents. Shouldn’t God have waited until they were all in on Gothard before bestowing the amazing gift of Josh? Who, by the way, seems to have been acting out continually in ways that should get him off the hook of being the great shining hope of Christianity. That was a hell of lot of pressure to put on a kid.

ETA: So I guess according to this cult, all of us who are not out committing offenses aren’t important enough to God for Satan to bother with? Almost sounds like a case for atheism.

Still hoping that Anna is spending these last few days coming to terms with the charges against Josh; I think many of us would have had to wrestle with denial, at least. And then she’s got the Gothard “everything is the woman’s fault” programming to overcome. I’m still hopeful that at some point she’ll make the break a d save her kids. 

Edited by Tabbygirl521
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1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

Exactly and the fact that Josh felt comfortable downloading CP at a place of business is proof positive nobody ever came in there. 

I'm surprised anyone believed he was working late; doing what? How busy could his lot have been? If it was a last minute customer, I'd think he would have said he was with a customer. 

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Scarlett45

Guidelines for the thread:

Charges have been made public that specifically name possession of Child Sexual Abuse Material, discussion of charges are allowed. However, discussion of victims, or possible victims (and their identities) related to these charges are NOT ALLOWED
We are not here to provide content for ghoulish rubbernecking- there is no need to discuss the graphic details related to these charges, the moderators are not going to police posts for graphic content- posts will be removed and violators will be warned. Do not attempt to circumvent this guideline with spoiler tags.

You MAY discuss the 2015 scandals, and any statement a NOW ADULT victim has made public as previously instructed, but speculation on unnamed victims or minor victims is NOT allowed. 

Jokes, asides, memes etc regarding the sexual assault of anyone, INCLUDING Josh Duggar are not allowed.

As of May 10, 2021: Please respect the privacy of the Reber family, discussion of their social media postings, public statements to the press/court testimony are acceptable. Discussion of their activities on their property, their schedule, where/how they run their errands not acceptable. Again, discussion of social media/court statements/public statements to the press- FINE, "So and So saw the Rebers standing in their yard/grocery shopping/getting gas"- NOT fine. 

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