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Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

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1 minute ago, 3girlsforus said:

Thanks. It makes sense and yet is very difficult because you think they would need to see what he is actually being accused of doing. It’s a horrible catch 22. I know juries have to see some awful things but I’m glad about this. Those people and anyone else who has to see it could be scarred for life. 

I'm not saying the jurors can't see it.   I'm saying the public cannot -- in the case of normal times anybody observing in the courtroom in the gallery.

I have zero clue how they will go about presenting explicit material to the jury there. 

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4 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Maybe this is regional but I've had full videos played for the jury and court room while I was on the stand.  In federal court, they printed a book of images and gave them to the jury with meta data attached.  If they want a conviction, they need to play the video.  I don't think it's publish CP is you are using it for court purposes because that logic could mean you would arrest me for viewing it during an examination.

I work in a state court system, not federal.

I was referring to the public not seeing it, as in observers.    As I said in the murder case, provisions were made for judge, jury, pros, defense and deft. to see all evidence.

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7 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

So, BIL, not brothers…that’s a smaller pool. Jeremy’s probably out because of distance and I don’t think he gives smuggar the time of day….too unfashionable. Ben doesn’t seem to be the type…neither does Austin…Derrick hates Josh…

and if there are others, I’ve forgotten them completely.

 

BIL could also mean on Anna's side. I haven't seen the article, so I don't know if they specified which side of the family and does it specify he's saying its CP or just something else? 

 

Watch Josh read the 'Derrick killed a guy in South America' story on reddit and is using that. 

 

Even if he were to strike a deal, he would still be admitting guilt and that would come with a mandatory minimum in most cases and also going on the registry. I don't think your deal is going to be that good on CP.

 

I'm skeptical of the rumor. I've said he may blackmail JB with stuff he probably has on him (financial namely) just to make sure JB doesn't cheap out on the defense but even that won't help him with the Feds directly. 

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7 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

Thanks. It makes sense and yet is very difficult because you think they would need to see what he is actually being accused of doing. It’s a horrible catch 22. I know juries have to see some awful things but I’m glad about this. Those people and anyone else who has to see it could be scarred for life. 

Jury selection for these types of cases is challenging, and extended.   The "celebrity" factor here looms large too.

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6 minutes ago, Gigi43 said:

 

BIL could also mean on Anna's side. I haven't seen the article, so I don't know if they specified which side of the family and does it specify he's saying its CP or just something else? 

 

 

If he did say that, I wonder if he is throwing the brother that offered Anna help earlier under the bus? Just to get back at him. 

 

Edited by libgirl2
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Given the press coverage I wonder how difficult it is going to be to seat a jury?  Pedophiles are seen as the lowest of the low, and since his previous transgressions have been brought up all over again there will be a bunch of prospective jurors who will just say that they cannot be impartial.  On the prosecution side I bet they would dismiss anyone who is seen to share the Duggars' beliefs, as they would be deemed too sympathetic.

 

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4 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

Given the press coverage I wonder how difficult it is going to be to seat a jury?  Pedophiles are seen as the lowest of the low, and since his previous transgressions have been brought up all over again there will be a bunch of prospective jurors who will just say that they cannot be impartial.  On the prosecution side I bet they would dismiss anyone who is seen to share the Duggars' beliefs, as they would be deemed too sympathetic.

 

There are over a 1/2 million people in the NWA metro area. I can see people not wanting to serve on the jury because of the nature of the crime, but I don't think it's going to be impossible to find a dozen people to seat on the jury. 

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Just now, WinnieWinkle said:

Anna does remember who was president in 2019 doesn't she?  I mean assuming there is an iota of truth in the reported story of course.

This. Also, Anna doesn’t strike me as the furious type with anyone in authority over her. Distraught and hysterical, sure. Furious with JimBob, who’s the difference between a roof over her head and…not? Not so much.

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39 minutes ago, Boston said:

God help those that don't believe in God.. DIRTBAGS

Huh

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3 minutes ago, WinnieWinkle said:

Anna does remember who was president in 2019 doesn't she?  I mean assuming there is an iota of truth in the reported story of course.

It doesn’t have any kind of ring of truth to me. I don’t think anyone is getting close enough to Anna right to accurately report what she’s thinking or feeling. Frankly any reports right now, even from official Duggar sources, about what Anna is thinking or feeling are questionable to me. JB authors those and he’d never going to tell the truth even if Anna was willing to tell him the truth. 

Edited by 3girlsforus
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4 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

If he did say that, I wonder if he is throwing the brother that offered Anna help earlier under the bus? 

 

I think it's a big if. There are probably people looking to create stories. The trial isn't for two months if it doesn't get delayed. I think there are going to be a lot of rumors -and WOACB will make 3 videos on each rumor and probably start some- to keep the story going. Josh taking people down (especially if they are other cult members or trying to trash Anna's brother who tried to help) sounds better than just waiting it out.  There are probably people who are actively hoping for more fundies going down, too, not thinking about the larger factor that means those poor kids in the CP are further victims with every dl. 

 

I'm taking every Josh rumor with a grain of salt unless multiple reputable sources start to confirm. 

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4 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

Given the press coverage I wonder how difficult it is going to be to seat a jury?  Pedophiles are seen as the lowest of the low, and since his previous transgressions have been brought up all over again there will be a bunch of prospective jurors who will just say that they cannot be impartial.  On the prosecution side I bet they would dismiss anyone who is seen to share the Duggars' beliefs, as they would be deemed too sympathetic.

 

Very difficult.  These cases always are difficult to seat a jury.

I know if I were called for jury duty and had to go up for voir dire on a murder case I would have to make it completely clear that I would be absolutely unable to serve if it required viewing any autopsy photos or even graphic photos of the body on scene or even on the table prior to autopsy.   Depending on the situation and the discussion I'm likely to be unable to handle even listening to anything testified to about the particulars of the injuries and details of the cause of death.

I wouldn't have the stomach or the ability to remain objective viewing the information in this type of case either.   I would not be very unusual in this regard.   

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1 minute ago, Oldernowiser said:

This. Also, Anna doesn’t strike me as the furious type with anyone in authority over her. Distraught and hysterical, sure. Furious with JimBob, who’s the difference between a roof over her head and…not? Not so much.

I don't buy it either. Anna has absolutely no leverage in this situation. If she threatened to leave, I could see Boob saying "Fine, good luck supporting seven kids." He's not legally obligated to give her money and Joshley is unemployable for the rest of his life. Also, any salacious information she could reveal to the press about Boob would likely make her look bad as well. She's got no cards to play.

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23 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

Thanks. It makes sense and yet is very difficult because you think they would need to see what he is actually being accused of doing. It’s a horrible catch 22. I know juries have to see some awful things but I’m glad about this. Those people and anyone else who has to see it could be scarred for life. 

So that would at least protect anyone attending the trial from viewing the book but they’d likely see the video? Would they give a warning to spectators about the horrors to come or would the defense call that prejudicing the jury but calling it disturbing?

I don't know if they gave trigger warnings to the court room. I guess the logic is that as a spectator, you don't have to be there.  So if it's upsetting and they say "we are going to show videos or images" that's your sign to leave.  The time they handed out the books with images, it was only given to the defense, the judge and the jury. 

As for the video, many of you were freaked out by just the description.  Does the jury have the right to see what the content is? I wouldn't want to find someone guilty without seeing the video.  And trust me, stills from the video don't do it justice.  They need to hear the audio, as horrific as it is.  Because once the jury and judge see the video, they will have a clear idea of what Josh was interested in.  

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1 hour ago, Canadian Girl said:

Absolutely, she will never leave. I don't know about "liking it", that might not be the right word, but she would definitely believe that whatever challenges God puts in her path are "opportunities" to show how godly she is in overcoming them. Keeping faithful to your husband and to God are taught as the ultimate accomplishment as a woman. She would believe her eternal salvation depends on her never giving up on her marriage. 

Assuming Josh is going to jail for years, and assuming Anna will never leave him, would she qualify for some sort of monthly welfare money?  And food stamps?

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1 minute ago, louannems said:

Assuming Josh is going to jail for years, and assuming Anna will never leave him, would she qualify for some sort of monthly welfare money?  And food stamps?

Probably not because all of Joshley's assets are in her name. 

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4 minutes ago, louannems said:

Assuming Josh is going to jail for years, and assuming Anna will never leave him, would she qualify for some sort of monthly welfare money?  And food stamps?

Yes, as long as she doesn’t have any assets.

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16 minutes ago, WinnieWinkle said:

Anna does remember who was president in 2019 doesn't she?  I mean assuming there is an iota of truth in the reported story of course.

If this is true, WTF is wrong with her? I can't see her furious, but then again, I don't really know her. 

20 minutes ago, TresGatos said:

I just hope this doesn't turn into a Josh Powell situation.

 

That went through my head yesterday. 

Edited by libgirl2

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6 hours ago, Tikichick said:

In child protective matters where sexual abuse in particular is suspected or possible here CPS does not interview the children.   Because of the way the legal process is conducted it is preferred as few people as possible have interviewed the children.   The way defense attorneys attack that aspect of how a case was handled is not for the faint of heart.   It can legitimately be all but impossible to stifle all instinctive reactions in a hearing when that's going on.

Here children are interviewed by people specially trained in proper techniques to interview children regarding abuse.  It must be conducted in a way where everything, absolutely everything can be attributed to the child and only the child and never approach any hint of suggestion from the interviewer. 

Where I live, we have a center dedicated to suspected CSA cases. The environment is comfortable and child friendly. The center is staffed by police officers, social workers, and SART nurses who have special training in CSA interview and examination. The children can have a trusted adult present during all phases of the process, but it can’t be an adult who is suspected of committing or being complicit in the abuse, and the adult isn’t allowed to comment on anything related to the suspected abuse. I believe a lot more jurisdictions are opening these centers, but I don’t know if Fayetteville has one.

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25 minutes ago, TresGatos said:

 

There is reporting that Anna is furious with Jim Boob and Meechelle and that she blames this on the Biden administration and this never would have happened if Trump were President.

Seriously.

 

That sounds entirely made up, imo,

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Not that it matters in Josh's case, because he is relatively unknown, but the celebrity thing is going by the wayside in courtrooms now. With SM and 24 hour news cycles lawyers are finding it hard to argue a town or city a few hundred miles away will make a difference in seating a jury, when its plastered all over the news. They'll just have to believe potential jurors when they say it won't influence their verdict.

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I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if I committed a far lesser crime (like, financial or something similar) that meant I was released on the condition I had to live with almost strangers while awaiting trial. I would be beyond embarrassed, contrite, and feel like an enormous burden on everyone involved. It might kill me faster than a prison sentence.

If I was Josh's attorney or someone obligated to still care about him (like a parent), my biggest concern is what is this guy going to do with his days? He's not going to pitch in around the house or make himself helpful in any way. He absolutely doesn't strike me as someone who can keep himself busy or entertained in a normal fashion. Given what they found, I would not classify anyone as safe around him. I feel a disaster coming. I dearly hope I'm wrong.

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12 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I don't buy it either. Anna has absolutely no leverage in this situation. If she threatened to leave, I could see Boob saying "Fine, good luck supporting seven kids." He's not legally obligated to give her money and Joshley is unemployable for the rest of his life. Also, any salacious information she could reveal to the press about Boob would likely make her look bad as well. She's got no cards to play.

I agree that she’s not going to leave, but she might have some leverage in the assets that are in her name only. Unless she doesn’t have full control over the LLC or if there isn’t much in the the way of assets. 

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3 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

I agree that she’s not going to leave, but she might have some leverage in the assets that are in her name only. Unless she doesn’t have full control over the LLC or if there isn’t much in the the way of assets. 

We'll know for sure when she's forced to sell that junked up indoor pool house to feed her kids. I seriously doubt that the brothers are going to do any more construction for Smuggar as they did when he returned from DC in disgrace.

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If Anna comes to believe that Josh did was he's accused of, I think she'll leave him. I'm sure right now she doesn't want to believe he did those things. I hope she attends court and actually listens to the evidence so she can see who Josh really is.

Everyone was impressed when Chauvin's wife divorced him in a hot minute, before he was even charged. It turns out there's some evidence pointing to her doing that to get all the assets in her name in case Chauvin was sued. 

Not that the cases are the same, but no one really knows what goes on in the minds of spouses and family members of the accused.

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31 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Very difficult.  These cases always are difficult to seat a jury.

I know if I were called for jury duty and had to go up for voir dire on a murder case I would have to make it completely clear that I would be absolutely unable to serve if it required viewing any autopsy photos or even graphic photos of the body on scene or even on the table prior to autopsy.   Depending on the situation and the discussion I'm likely to be unable to handle even listening to anything testified to about the particulars of the injuries and details of the cause of death.

I wouldn't have the stomach or the ability to remain objective viewing the information in this type of case either.   I would not be very unusual in this regard.   

May I ask what it is that you do? You seem to know a lot about trials, evidence and such. I'm just curious now that you mention you would have difficulty sitting as a juror on a murder trial.

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19 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

I agree that she’s not going to leave, but she might have some leverage in the assets that are in her name only. Unless she doesn’t have full control over the LLC or if there isn’t much in the the way of assets. 

I think whatever money's in those LLC's might be enough to tide her over for several years, but probably isn't "set for life" money. Anna could take off with it, sure, but at some point down the road she'd be back at zero with seven kids to support.

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11 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

If Anna comes to believe that Josh did was he's accused of, I think she'll leave him. I'm sure right now she doesn't want to believe he did those things. I hope she attends court and actually listens to the evidence so she can see who Josh really is.

Everyone was impressed when Chauvin's wife divorced him in a hot minute, before he was even charged. It turns out there's some evidence pointing to her doing that to get all the assets in her name in case Chauvin was sued. 

Not that the cases are the same, but no one really knows what goes on in the minds of spouses and family members of the accused.

We have a case out by us of a Catholic school teacher (and local weather personality) who was caught on camera soliciting a minor, grooming.... well his wife filed for divorce as soon as the news came out last week. 

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1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm still thinking there's no money in those LLCs. I think they're set up to show a loss to reduce what the Duggars pay in taxes.

Do you think the car lots are part of that? It seems like they hardly sell any of those clunkers.

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When Josh's sisters spoke to the police 15 some odd years ago, what was it that prompted that to happen? I can't remember if it was on JB and Michelle's initiative, or the police investigated because someone alerted them that something was wrong.

Either way, the girls appear to have been honest, and did not seem to have been encouraged by their parents to lie.

I don't think JB and Michelle are going to defend Josh to the ends of the earth with this. My guess is the reason Josh and Anna sold their house and are now living in a windowless warehouse was that JB told him he'd have to cover his own legal fees but he'd provide a place for his family to live. The warehouse is definitely the worst of the homes JB has provided for his kids. Josh sold the house so he could hire lawyers if need be, and the family moved into the warehouse to wait and see.

I do believe Josh was not completely upfront with Anna, JB and Michelle about what was on his computer. I have no idea of the details of what was found on the computer - and I really, really don't want to know - but I think there's a very good chance Anna, JB and Michelle had no idea what was downloaded. Josh could easily have said "porn" or "photos of children", but I doubt he went into the details that have repulsed those who have read the details.

I think the past 24 hours have been eye-opening for the Duggars, who likely had very little idea of what Josh accessed online. And may not have known that photos/videos of children being sexually assaulted even existed.

Will JB and Michelle banish Josh from their lives? I have no idea. My guess is no, because he is their child. The one thing I have been harking back to since this all broke was the Paul Bernardo/Karla Homolka case here in Ontario about 25 years ago. The married couple were arrested for the abduction, sexual assault and murder of two teenaged girls. The police believed Bernardo was behind it, but had no evidence. Karla Homolka made a deal to testify against her husband in exchange for a shorter sentence. And then told her lawyer where they had stashed the video tapes, which indicated she was just as culpable as he was. And that her youngest sister had also been a victim of theirs, Karla having drugged her and "giving" her to Paul as a Christmas gift, although her death had never been considered suspicious. (Her deal with the courts became known as "The Deal with the Devil" by the Canadian media. Because it well and truly was.) Knowing all of this, her parents and younger sister still accompanied her to court every single day. Every.single.day.  She lived with them and went to court with them every.single.day. I am not excusing JB and Michelle, in any way. But there are times when being a parent is f'ed up. I have no idea if you compartmentalize things or what, but parents often find a way to support a child who has committed unspeakable crimes. Even if the victim was also your child.

 

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Even if there is no actual money in those assets, I could see them being reluctant to apply for any aid since they'd then have to explain they have this network of moneyless LLCs. 

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1 minute ago, Pingaponga said:

When Josh's sisters spoke to the police 15 some odd years ago, what was it that prompted that to happen? I can't remember if it was on JB and Michelle's initiative, or the police investigated because someone alerted them that something was wrong.

If I am not mistaken, the call was absolutely not initiated by the family. I think someone from Oprah actually called after they were tipped off that the family had covered up abuse. 

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1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

Do you think the car lots are part of that? It seems like they hardly sell any of those clunkers.

I tend to think no. I think they're real businesses. I'm not sure how successful they are, because they're Duggars, but I think the goal is to make money at the car lots. And they may be successful. Who knows.

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I know someone whose sister bought a car from one of the Duggar car lots a few years ago. He said she said it was a complete piece of junk and they never returned her calls. LOLOL 

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Does anyone want to bet he already has a burner phone?

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10 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

The Sun story did give me a chuckle.  We all know that the main focus of the Biden administration is punishing Josh Duggar.  🙄😂

Yes. Because there’s absolutely nothing else going on these days. 🙄

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56 minutes ago, louannems said:

Assuming Josh is going to jail for years, and assuming Anna will never leave him, would she qualify for some sort of monthly welfare money?  And food stamps?

Yes

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1 minute ago, Rabbittron said:

Does anyone want to bet he already has a burner phone?

This is Josh's court ordered phone. (but you're right, he may already have a burner)

image.png.da1f3bc47a23c5f4ecab4f7e97fd4d42.png

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1 minute ago, Rabbittron said:

Does anyone want to bet he already has a burner phone?

Okay here’s one for all of the smart people here...wouldn’t a new phone suddenly pinging out of the Reber house show up somewhere somehow?

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6 minutes ago, Zella said:

I know someone whose sister bought a car from one of the Duggar car lots a few years ago. He said she said it was a complete piece of junk and they never returned her calls. LOLOL 

Would one expect anything less from Duggars? 😂

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2 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Would one expect anything less from Duggars? 😂

I don't remember how we got on the topic of the Duggars--he is not from here but the whole family relocated here--and he was like "Those assholes sold my sister a lemon!" And I had to restrain myself from blurting out, "Why was she dumb enough to buy a car from them to begin with?" LOL 

The funniest part to me was she was actually a fan of the show before that happened. I guess it cured her. 

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3 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

Okay here’s one for all of the smart people here...wouldn’t a new phone suddenly pinging out of the Reber house show up somewhere somehow?

If it did happen then it wouldn't surprise me if they claimed that one of the piano students had it.

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28 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

We have a case out by us of a Catholic school teacher (and local weather personality) who was caught on camera soliciting a minor, grooming.... well his wife filed for divorce as soon as the news came out last week. 

I'd imagine that that would be the usual response of a regular person to this sort of thing.  Anna is not a regular person though.  She's had a very isolated upbringing and has been told since birth that she is subservient to men, first her father and then her husband.

It's sort of like Stockholm syndrome, she's been a hostage so long, she doesn't realize who the bad guys really are.

Maybe those who want to discuss other instances of abuse as part of the ongoing discussion of Josh could spoiler tag it?  That way, people who'd rather not read it won't need to see it.

Edited by doodlebug
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5 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

If it did happen then it wouldn't surprise me if they claimed that one of the piano students had it.

But the piano students aren't allowed in the house now. 

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9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

This is Josh's court ordered phone. (but you're right, he may already have a burner)

image.png.da1f3bc47a23c5f4ecab4f7e97fd4d42.png

 

I miss flip phones. Flipping it down is the closest we'll come to replicating slamming the wired phone down. 

 

On topic, I think Josh has to have a second cell phone. It's common for people hiding activity whether it be illegal or just immoral like cheating. Also I don't believe he's gone since Nov 2019 without internet. 

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4 minutes ago, Canadian Girl said:

I'm not American so explain this to me. Why does Homeland Security investigate CP? Isn't "Homeland Security" about like, securing the american borders from terrorism threats?

Homeland Security is also involved in cyber security.  Since Josh downloaded illegal images from the internet, it fell under their jurisdiction to investigate.

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57 minutes ago, mynextmistake said:

Where I live, we have a center dedicated to suspected CSA cases. The environment is comfortable and child friendly. The center is staffed by police officers, social workers, and SART nurses who have special training in CSA interview and examination. The children can have a trusted adult present during all phases of the process, but it can’t be an adult who is suspected of committing or being complicit in the abuse, and the adult isn’t allowed to comment on anything related to the suspected abuse. I believe a lot more jurisdictions are opening these centers, but I don’t know if Fayetteville has one.

Very similar here, although the facilities are independent with trained staff.   They also get involved in cases of child physical abuse occasionally.  A detective on a case might listen or remotely observe an interview, and occasionally a prosecutor may do the same, but they are allowed no input into the process whatsoever.   No one but the child and the interviewer are allowed in the interview room.  Family does not listen or observe.

Anything requiring a physical examination of a victim is conducted by a SANE nurse, unsure where they are conducted.   This applies purely to investigation, not regarding children who are in need of medical treatment.   Obviously medical treatment would take priority where needed.

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Scarlett45

Guidelines for the thread:

Charges have been made public that specifically name possession of Child Sexual Abuse Material, discussion of charges are allowed. However, discussion of victims, or possible victims (and their identities) related to these charges are NOT ALLOWED
We are not here to provide content for ghoulish rubbernecking- there is no need to discuss the graphic details related to these charges, the moderators are not going to police posts for graphic content- posts will be removed and violators will be warned. Do not attempt to circumvent this guideline with spoiler tags.

You MAY discuss the 2015 scandals, and any statement a NOW ADULT victim has made public as previously instructed, but speculation on unnamed victims or minor victims is NOT allowed. 

Jokes, asides, memes etc regarding the sexual assault of anyone, INCLUDING Josh Duggar are not allowed.

As of May 10, 2021: Please respect the privacy of the Reber family, discussion of their social media postings, public statements to the press/court testimony are acceptable. Discussion of their activities on their property, their schedule, where/how they run their errands not acceptable. Again, discussion of social media/court statements/public statements to the press- FINE, "So and So saw the Rebers standing in their yard/grocery shopping/getting gas"- NOT fine. 

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