Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Tuxcat]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I don't know if this was stated - again I'm only skimming posts to avoid graphic details - I think Josh's question about if the raid was because of CP, is irrelevant due to other evidence, but it could be argued either way. Josh could say he asked because he knew it was on the computer when he "accidentally" accessed it. Or it could be seen as an excited utterance of guilt, which are often deemed truthful. But either way, I don't think it will make a difference in the trial.

I think the TOR account used to access the dark web was password protected which would make it pretty hard to accidentally find it - haha. I agree, the CP statement isn't really a huge part of the case. It's just interesting to see where the defense might go - they are going to try to poke as many holes as possible. The worst is if they aaregue that the entire search was illegal. They also made reference to that. If the initial lead starting with the first ping (and the subsequent wrong address) are questionable then uh oh. But I think most of these are long shot defenses.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, Snow Fairy said:

Yeah, because you accidentally have 200+65 images of CP on your computer, and you just stumble on that. I don't think that would be any defense for him

I think most of us have on some point watched at porn, and you  can't find CP on normal porn sites

1 hour ago, Tuxcat said:

I think the TOR account used to access the dark web was password protected which would make it pretty hard to accidentally find it - haha. I agree, the CP statement isn't really a huge part of the case. It's just interesting to see where the defense might go - they are going to try to poke as many holes as possible. The worst is if they aaregue that the entire search was illegal. They also made reference to that. If the initial lead starting with the first ping (and the subsequent wrong address) are questionable then uh oh. But I think most of these are long shot defenses.

That's exactly what I'm saying Tux, I guess I wasn't clear. His statement is a non-issue in light of all the other evidence. In other words, Josh's statement is the least of his worries.

Came back to add my very little knowledge of the dark web is, its where creeps go to do creepy things. I assume there are other creepy things there besides CP. Josh is a creep. Probably in more ways than one.

Question: Is it illegal to enter into the dark web in and of itself?

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by GeeGolly

[ginger90]

54 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

That's exactly what I'm saying Tux, I guess I wasn't clear. His statement is a non-issue in light of all the other evidence. In other words, Josh's statement is the least of his worries.

Came back to add my very little knowledge of the dark web is, its where creeps go to do creepy things. I assume there are other creepy things there besides CP. Josh is a creep. Probably in more ways than one.

Question: Is it illegal to enter into the dark web in and of itself?

 

Quick google search gave me this:

Using Tor to access and browse the dark web is not illegal*. You will, though, have to be cautious. ... But visiting certain sites, or making certain purchases, through the dark web is illegal. If you use the dark web to purchase illegal drugs or firearms, that's illegal.

 

Here are two articles:

https://laws101.com/illegal-to-go-on-the-dark-web/

https://clario.co/blog/is-dark-web-illegal/

[Madtown]

Trying to catch up, but saw an article where a "source" said "Anna has no plans for divorce and is standing by Josh just like she always has."

Even if this isn't a true statement, I don't doubt that she would stand by him, it's what she's told to do. Talk about someone needing massive therapy.

[Jeeves]

1 hour ago, Tuxcat said:

I think the TOR account used to access the dark web was password protected which would make it pretty hard to accidentally find it - haha. I agree, the CP statement isn't really a huge part of the case. It's just interesting to see where the defense might go - they are going to try to poke as many holes as possible. The worst is if they aaregue that the entire search was illegal. They also made reference to that. If the initial lead starting with the first ping (and the subsequent wrong address) are questionable then uh oh. But I think most of these are long shot defenses.

I watched quite a bit of Emily the lawyer's livestream last night. She said that the internet service provider (ISP) gave law enforcement an incorrect physical address for the IP which LE used for the original warrant. When LE realized that was wrong they went back to the ISP. That time the ISP realized they'd given LE an out of date address for that account, and gave them the correct one. Then LE got a new search warrant with the correct physical address.  Short version as I understand it:  the ping led to the correct IP number  - and then it took them two tries for the ISP to provide the then current physical address related to that IP. Once they got the correct physical location, LE went back to court to get a new search warrant for the correct physical address. That seems pretty solid to me. 

[Snow Fairy]

She is probably glad he was looking at other kids, and not doing anything to their. She is so brainwashed

[Future Cat Lady]

25 minutes ago, Madtown said:

Trying to catch up, but saw an article where a "source" said "Anna has no plans for divorce and is standing by Josh just like she always has."

Even if this isn't a true statement, I don't doubt that she would stand by him, it's what she's told to do. Talk about someone needing massive therapy.

Not a surprise. There’s a girl who left ATI who wrote a post somewhere (Facebook?) about why Anna won’t leave and why the Duggars don’t take the abuse seriously. The post was reposted on Reddit. She also did a video and it it was posted her. I can’t find it. She was abused by her dad. They called it being inappropriate and that he would make her stronger IIRC. So basically, they are taught it’s not a big deal. I think it’ Gothard and his sick friends making rules to facilitate and cover up their own abuse. 

[Dr.OO7]

This article, which offers up some pretty disturbing details about the images in Josh's possession:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/josh-duggar-child-pornography-case-trial-bail-home-confinement-000211966.html

[Tuxcat]

17 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I watched quite a bit of Emily the lawyer's livestream last night. She said that the internet service provider (ISP) gave law enforcement an incorrect physical address for the IP which LE used for the original warrant. When LE realized that was wrong they went back to the ISP. That time the ISP realized they'd given LE an out of date address for that account, and gave them the correct one. Then LE got a new search warrant with the correct physical address.  Short version as I understand it:  the ping led to the correct IP number  - and then it took them two tries for the ISP to provide the then current physical address related to that IP. Once they got the correct physical location, LE went back to court to get a new search warrant for the correct physical address. That seems pretty solid to me. 

Agreed but there is something about the Desktop vs. the MacBook and that initial local ping. The defense claimed that the Little Rock detective did not have a Network Investigative Technique warrant. That is prior to homeland security getting involved.

And also that the initial ping only gave the IP address and not the device specific address (which is apparently something they are able to do with MacBooks). Again we need to see the full context here but the cross examination of the federal agent suggests the defense is looking at all these things. I agree, I think the federal case is solid. I just like to see where the defense might go.

 

[tarheel220]

I just saw an article on People that said he was supposed to be using a software called "Covenant Eyes" that would send information to Anna about where he'd been on the internet but that recently a password-protected network was used which prevented Covenant Eyes from being able to detect anything.

It's looking worse and worse for him

[sigmaforce86]

11 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

This article, which offers up some pretty disturbing details about the images in Josh's possession:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/josh-duggar-child-pornography-case-trial-bail-home-confinement-000211966.html

That's the one I just read that lead me here to see what people were saying.  Honestly it was so disgusting I couldn't even bring myself to quote any part of it to comment; even the investigators said it was in the top five worst types a person could access.   But outside what he looked at which I don't even want to think about I need to say I'm disgusted at the judge for allowing visits with his kids in his release as long as Anna Is There.  That should not be, that girl is so far in the cult she can not be fully trusted - not that I think she would allow or encourage Josh to do anything just that she does not have a spine of her own and I don't trust what he might sneak by her and her inability to say "No" to her headship.   It should have been no contact or contact only with an outside party like a social worker present at all times.

Also about where the stuff was on his computer - he is both sneaky and stupid at the same time.  He split his hard drive to hide the files from the porn monitor that was installed and he password protected it.  Sneaky.   Then he used a password that he's used on other accounts like his banking and that includes his birth date.  Stupid.

I truly hope law enforcement didn't and doesn't mess up here and has a clear line of evidence to present.   

[Tuxcat]

13 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

This article, which offers up some pretty disturbing details about the images in Josh's possession:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/josh-duggar-child-pornography-case-trial-bail-home-confinement-000211966.html

Potential trigger: not graphic/specific but focused on the general topic which is very difficult

Spoiler

Apparently some of what he viewed is banned even in the pedophile circles. I think for Josh, he is all about domination, cruelty, violence of the vulnerable. It's less about him being sexually "attracted and oriented" towards children. Just my opinion anyway.

 

[Madtown]

22 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

Not a surprise. There’s a girl who left ATI who wrote a post somewhere (Facebook?) about why Anna won’t leave and why the Duggars don’t take the abuse seriously. The post was reposted on Reddit. She also did a video and it it was posted her. I can’t find it. She was abused by her dad. They called it being inappropriate and that he would make her stronger IIRC. So basically, they are taught it’s not a big deal. I think it’ Gothard and his sick friends making rules to facilitate and cover up their own abuse. 

I remember that story. It was sickening.
If the judge let him go AND be around his kids, I have no hope he'll get any kind of sentence.

[Dr.OO7]

1 minute ago, sigmaforce86 said:

not that I think she would allow or encourage Josh to do anything

I pray that it wouldn't go that far, but I'm certain that she's naive enough to believe that no matter what he's been accused of, he'd never touch his own kids, and she would therefore have no problem leaving him alone with them, despite explicit instructions to never do that. 

I've got a bad feeling this is going to escalate until those kids are taken away from them.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, Madtown said:

I remember that story. It was sickening.
If the judge let him go AND be around his kids, I have no hope he'll get any kind of sentence.

The judge from yesterday is not the judge who will be hearing his case in July.  Even if she was, there are mandatory minimum sentences if Josh is found guilty.  

[3girlsforus]

As far as Josh being both smart and stupid....I’m going to go with all stupid. I figure he he knew to set up the separate partition and other seemingly smart protections from researching instructions. There are how tos everywhere. But those kinds of instructions won’t say ‘don’t make your illegal child pornography password something that identifies you’ because ...well duh.  Also I think it’s likely that his focus was keeping it from Anna, not the feds. In his mind he needed to get around Covenant eyes not the federal government’s technology forensic people. 

[lascuba]

8 hours ago, hathorlive said:

So I work with HPs a lot. I examine them, my agency uses them for everything, just not my lab equipment. I have NEVER seen an HP with a default Linux partition.  So, does Josh have the knowledge to repartition the hard drive and create/carve a partition to make a Linux partition?  That definitely explains why a Windows program didn't see the activity.  Maybe Josh took it to an IT shop. I just have to think if he's that smart, then he would have used a VPN to hide his location.

To be fair, it is really really difficult to translate tech speak.  I hope we can get a transcript of what was said in the hearing.

I'm not particularly tech savvy but I use Linux, and there are at least a few linux distributions that are easy enough to install and create partitions. I use Linux Mint, and it offers the options of having a dual boot system where you can chose between linux or windows/mac when you start your computer--the partitions are created automatically at installation, with the option of adjusting partition sizes or going with the default settings.  Josh could  have very easily installed something like Mint or Ubuntu on his HP.

[Madtown]

16 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The judge from yesterday is not the judge who will be hearing his case in July.  Even if she was, there are mandatory minimum sentences if Josh is found guilty.  

Thank you! He needs to rot...

[NotthebadVictoria]

8 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

I had the same thought and made the argument earlier about being both dumb (using a birthday passcode) and smart (partitioning a computer). It leads to doubt.

If his passcode was the same as bank info and others, AND he had covenant eyes it makes sense to me. He’s being babysat and Anna would have all of his passwords so the false sense of security is there. She can get into the computer to check on him and he can operate like business as usual. Having a hard passcode would make the babysitter suspicious. Usual passcodes don’t alert anyone and the partitioning was good enough to hide his activity from them. 

[Tabbygirl521]

45 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

This article, which offers up some pretty disturbing details about the images in Josh's possession:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/josh-duggar-child-pornography-case-trial-bail-home-confinement-000211966.html

Poking around Reddit, I gathered some clues about what apparently was the image referred to as “among the top 5 worst.” If the clues are accurate, it is literally the worst thing I can imagine. If true, Josh LOATHES children and should never ever ever be allowed around them. And if Anna stands by him (which I know she is trained to do, as well as assuming responsibility for his depravity), she is lost. God help their children. 

[IndianPaintbrush]

All Josh had to do was fool his wife, which is a low bar. The password thing sounds like pure carelessness. He was too lazy to keep track of different passwords, and cocky enough to believe investigators would never get that far anyway.

[hathorlive]

14 hours ago, crazy8s said:

decision - again from the reddit recap

Josh Duggar will be released on very strict conditions:

- Tomorrow Josh will be released to the Reavers with close GPS monitoring. Restricted to this residence except for working, education, church, medical services, meeting with lawyers, court ordered obligation, or other activities approved IN ADVANCE by the probation office.

So basically Josh is free to bounce merrily along in life with few restrictions.  Church is at his parents house.  Kids have a mother who is so fucking stupid she doesn't even know what abuse or grooming is.  Can someone define what Josh's "work" actually is?  Hell, he can go sit in a bar all day because  he doesn't have a job.  It's whatever JB says it is.  And therein lies the problem.  You are trusting the people who created this situation to control and monitor the situation, including the enabler custodians.

[MsJamieDornan]

4 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Church is at his parents house.

They all attend a regular church.

[hathorlive]

13 hours ago, JoanArc said:

It sounds like he used Tor ( decently anonymous )  to download bit torrent files of the CSA ( not anonymous at all).  Bit Torrent is  just like a giant neon sign Pointing to the computer that is accessing the files. I would doubt that he paid anything for the images, but then I don’t know that world very well. Hathor? Thank God he thinks he’s so smart but is actually so stupid

And that little piece tells me how the Feds found out what he was doing.  File sharing is so transparent with so many ways LE can see what you are doing.  I keep going back to the Linux partition.  Was he using that to download and TOR?  I guess he could have had a GUI version of Linux because I don't see Josh knowing command line.  But then I don't see Josh knowing how to download and install program packages in Linux either.   

Some sites have porn for pay.  Others are forums that are free but have hidden forums you have to pay to access.  Dark web porn means you have researched how to find stuff on the dark web.  And the worst are sites that make you upload "new" content in order to access the other CP files.   And yes, that is exactly what it sounds like.  It gets new images into the group and it verifies that the person probably isn't law enforcement.  

[hathorlive]

13 hours ago, mittsigirl said:

I hate to keep bothering you, but why are the sentences so low, when they affect these children for the rest of their lives? Shouldn't this crime be right up there with murder? It seems to me that these perverts are so protected in the courts, when they should have much worse sentences given to them! Just why?? Young children, toddlers and babies! They should have to rot in jail!

My first instinct is to say the sentences are low because 85% of the people sentenced are white males.  LE talks about strong sentences, but I can tell you even when a person is convicted, we usually feel like they didn't get the sentence the crime deserved.  

So please write and call your representatives and demand stronger sentences for these crimes. 

[MaryAnneSpier]

He's allowed to see his children, which makes me hopeful that he "only" looked at images and didn't act on it with his kids. Very small comfort, but I'm so disturbed by some of the details I learned yesterday that I'm looking for anything to lessen how disgusted I feel with Josh. 

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

 

Question: Is it illegal to enter into the dark web in and of itself?

 

Nope. The dark web was created for good purposes and still serves them. (just like many things, it can be used for good or for ill....)

As a reporter, I used the dark web on one story  to communicate with some dissidents, another journalist and some people working for a nonprofit in a country where some of them could be killed and others ousted for passing information about harrowing local activities, some being carried out by the government.

Even U.S. government officials stationed in some countries use it at times because there's no other way for them to pass information at all or to pass it safely.

And newspapers and other media outlets create secure drop points on the dark web to allow informants who need anonymity for their own safety to pass along information about big-time crime and corruption investigations and so forth. 

In countries such as China that won't allow factual information on their local internets because they don't want their citizens questioning the government, the dark web allows people to get the facts about events that their government conceals from them. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Churchhoney

[hathorlive]

12 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

He will find a way and who will catch and tell? Anna? Hardly. This family he is staying with? I doubt it. 

All Anna has to do is buy a prepaid burner phone with internet access and slip it to him.  That will take her less than 30 minutes once Josh tells her he can't live without sports center.   Or whatever lie he tells her to get internet access.

[peppergal]

58 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

 

And also that the initial ping only gave the IP address and not the device specific address (which is apparently something they are able to do with MacBooks).

 

You are probably referring to the MAC address, which despite its name is not something to do with MacBooks.  It is a Media Access Control address, which is a unique address assigned to the network device (ie the ethernet port on a desktop or the wifi adapter in a laptop).  It is burned into the hardware's firmware, and cannot be changed, though it is possible to use software to spoof a different address on top.

If Josh downloaded a "do bad things" toolkit to help him with setting up the partition and configuring TOR, it's possible that toolkit also included MAC spoofing.  Or his ISP could have only been set up to record the MAC of his router/modem and not the devices connected to it. 

While being able to point to a specific hardware MAC address would be nice, I wouldn't read much into them not having it in this case.

[beckie]

Its is only an assumption at this point that Josh behaved in the time between the raid and now. Just because we haven't heard, doesn't mean he did. I'm sure he doubled down on his shit and found other ways to do his stuff. His family refuses to believe he does that stuff, even with proof or they try to hide the evidence. 

This is just my opinion.  I think this shit is far from over. He's too arrogant to stop. 

[Jeeves]

4 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

And that little piece tells me how the Feds found out what he was doing.  File sharing is so transparent with so many ways LE can see what you are doing.  I keep going back to the Linux partition.  Was he using that to download and TOR?  I guess he could have had a GUI version of Linux because I don't see Josh knowing command line.  But then I don't see Josh knowing how to download and install program packages in Linux either.   

My understanding is that TOR and the associated usage/downloading was on the Linux partition. The Christian activity-monitoring software [I forget its name] was on the other partition, so of course it didn't see the Linux partition activity and thus didn't report that to Anna. IIRC, the images of child sexual abuse were on the desktop computer but not on the Macbook or his iPhone, and if that's wrong I hope someone will correct me on that. 

I think that Josh has enough tech savvy to find instructions he could follow to set up the Linux partition and use TOR on it. As @peppergal just posted, he could have acquired a toolkit.

We know he's always been interested in computers and he's fairly bright although lazy. And too arrogant to think twice about using the same password for his criminal activities that he uses for his bank account, social media, etc. I wonder if he was so focused on hiding his dark web activities from his father and wife, that he never gave much thought to the fact that he was committing crimes and risking federal prosecution. (No doubt he was also breaking state laws but in this case the feds are dealing with it.) It wouldn't surprise me if that was true; it's his own nasty version of what I perceive as general Duggar insularity, arrogance, and belief that they are superior to all us heathens. 

[BigBingerBro]

If you've ever watched a trial that concerns computer and other device evidence, you know they can reveal every little click made on said devices.  It's going to be very hard to explain away much based on timestamps, etc.

Did they say that all of the images found were CP?   I'm wondering if he'll try to claim he was using the dark web to access a certain type of porn that may not be illegal but just nasty enough to not be mainstream and that he "accidentally" downloaded the CP images and video?

[NoThyme]

On 5/3/2021 at 9:55 AM, doodlebug said:

Yes, they do.  They live in a large building with no windows that JB used to store all kinds of junk in.  It has been partitioned into rooms, it seems. Still, NO windows.

If you go back in this thread to around Christmastime, there are photos Anna posted of the living area decorated for the holiday.  

has CPS examined or questioned the children to determine if they have been abused by their father? How do they allow them to live in a windowless house? 

Edited May 6, 2021 by NoThyme
it said restored, not sure what that means...

[Tikichick]

13 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

I know you’re right. I’m just MAD. This is CRAZY. And you know Mrs. Reamer is lying through her brainwashed fundie teeth. she’ll call her husband before she calls anybody else and they’ll try to sweep whatever Josh does under the rug.

sometimes it is hard to stay objective when you’re smacked in the face with how little girls and women mean in our society. And not just in fundie circles. Everywhere. This is not OK.

I hope in touch or some other publication parks a car in front of the reamers house 24/7 until trial and take photos of everything Josh does. And they have someone follow him so they can see where he’s going. Because it ain’t to work. I hope the amount of public shame that is heaped on Anna is significant enough that she decides it would be better for the kids to just stay home until daddy goes to trial. I hope Jill told her siblings exactly what was said at this hearing, so that nobody can delude themselves any longer into thinking it is safe for Josh to be around their kids. And I hope smirky-ass Josh tries to violate his conditions, just once and ends up back in the slammer.

I was going to get completely caught up before sharing my thoughts, but there are so many I've lost track.

If Josh is discovered violating any of the terms, suspected of violating any terms or goes missing the circumstances will be investigated.   If it's shown the monitor called others before informing the authorities there will be some consequences.   At the very least, a slap on the wrist -- but even that might put an end to resuming their prison ministry.   If things spiral all out, gaga, TV movie of the week, conspiring or aiding and abetting aren't entirely out of the question  --- granted, very farfetched things ever rise to that level.

As far as vigilante surveillance, or someone upthread mentioned posting warning notices in the area   ---  I absolutely understand the feelings behind those ideas because I don't think society has a corner to accept these monsters either.   Reality is the vigilantes are the ones who would face legal consequences.

I have been literally in a spin since the news began to break that he would be released.   It wasn't so much that he was granted release, which I am 100-percent NOT in agreement with ever, it was the provision of not only visitation with his children, but unlimited visitation with the requirement that Anna be present at all times.   How, just how in any version of reality does that happen?   How can that even logistically be accomplished?   It gave my brain a complete hardware and software failure trying to process.

Once I calmed down it finally dawned on me that as a federal case it's likely at the local level, which is where CPS and Human Services or Family Services or whatever the local entity is there operate, local authorities are at arms' length for the most part on this.   The federal system isn't set up to routinely coordinate with the local agencies the way local courts do, so the inner workings of how child protective matters operate is foreign.

 Yesterday's hearing did however provide some gifts.   The actions taken and the level of detail provided on the record about the allegations and discussions of his past admissions and activities handed local authorities precisely what they need to tag in.   The federal matter is the federal matter and the judge's orders hold.    It does not however preclude the ability of the local authority to review circumstances and open a child protective investigation of their own if they have good reason to believe that the children are at risk.   For all I know the federal judge is entirely aware as well and artfully crafted her ruling specifically to allow room for this extra measure of protective action to initiate.   

Basic practical matters may, not absolutely, but may necessitate different oversight of the visits.   My guess is Josh and Anna have several children, with probably at least one in diapers and maybe another who requires toileting assistance still.   Josh is clearly precluded from providing either.   How can those needs be met while Anna remains present with Josh and the other children?   If CPS comes in that will absolutely be part of their risk assessment.   As has been mentioned, there aren't many options of locations appropriate to support unlimited visitation as it currently stands.   Josh was not granted the privilege to leave confinement for visitation, let alone any type of situation that would allow him to loll about with Anna and the kids all day as if nothing has happened.   If Anna were to elect to hang out with Josh all day at his monitor's home it becomes even more burdensome on the monitor.   More importantly it would throw up red flags about school age children not having educational needs met.   Beyond that it raises the question of why the children should be subjected to live under the terms of confinement of someone accused of major felonies?   I hope and pray CPS comes in and initiates an  action that results in visits scheduled visits only with a CPS monitor in place, either at the place of confinement or at CPS offices -- whichever is more comfortable for the children would be my preference.

It's already Thursday, does anyone know where Josh and Anna routinely attend worship?  I guess I shouldn't presume, because the house of worship of his monitors should be given consideration as well.    And end run around the privilege to leave confinement to attend worship by choosing to worship at a service conducted in a residential setting somewhere will not likely pass muster.

At this point I'm hoping this granting of release has provided Josh with plenty of rope to seal the deal.   I've also reached my limits where I will extend Anna grace going forward.   While I doubt she did know about the child abusive materials before, she does now.   100-percent it would be harmful for these children to be separated from their mother.   If she chooses to support Josh going forward and leave open the possibility of reunion with him after he serves his sentence, there's no other choice.  The risk of harm is too high, far too high.   Josh has demonstrated there cannot be a single moment without watchful eyes.   There's no way he can ever reside in a home with a child where there is the ability to never have an unguarded moment with a child.  It's just not humanly possible.   The ship has well and truly sailed, the time even for bon voyage has long passed.   He will never not be a threat to children, and when he is in an insular environment his M.O. is to prey on whomever is handy.     

[Jeanne222]

So I was thinking about all of this last night.  I think our justice system is way to lenient to all offenders.  It just is.  There are so many behind bars in this country.  I read statistics a while back on how many prisons and jails  there are and was amazed.

With that said worrying if Josh 'will get what's coming to him'  who knows.

But I do know this.  With what he's accused of none will want anything to do with this miscreant!   Family, friends, church family, neighbors, grocery store clerks and gas station attendents!

He's down to mom, dad and Anna.

Discovered involved in CP at all will be his undoing in community.

That comforts me.

[dariafan]

20 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Yes, that was shown on the show.  Josh came strolling into the hotel, free as a bird while Anna, his personal sherpa, struggled carrying the bags.

There was also a scene on the show where, while sitting in an easy chair, Josh snapped his fingers at one of his sisters and ordered her to bring him a coke.  She did as she was told.

And that behavior right there is what it would take to make me snap and start beating him with a shoe ( for starters.  Have to wait for someone to grab me a stick )

[mythoughtis]

Read a Fox News article about the hearing. Nothing we didn’t already know. I was actually reading to see what the comments contained.  How many of you guessed that they think it’s Anna’s fault because she should have somehow been able to monitor Josh better ?  How many of you guessed that they are more worried about other people that they think should be prosecuted for other alleged crimes that have nothing to do with this case  so Josh should be let go. 
 

 

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, mythoughtis said:

Read a Fox News article about the hearing. Nothing we didn’t already know. I was actually reading to see what the comments contained.  How many of you guessed that they think it’s Anna’s fault because she should have somehow been able to monitor Josh better ?  How many of you guessed that they are more worried about other people that they think should be prosecuted for other alleged crimes that have nothing to do with this case  so Josh should be let go. 
 

 

We cannot, we simply cannot have divided to the point where child abusive, particularly child sexually abusive matters, do not override politics.    It has always been untouchable, always.  

[Jeeves]

I think there are plenty of people in IBLP/Gothard/fundie circles who will not shun Josh on account of this. I think they will look at it as: He's a male, he's one of us, he's being "persecuted" by the big bad evil federal government, he's been saved by the correct Jesus so all his sins are forgiven, this is just another attack on God's people by Satan, and what's the big deal. (Now, some of those people might be enough in touch with reality that they wouldn't want Josh to be alone with their kids, but still.)

Remember, JB drove Kent Hovind home from federal prison when Hovind had served his sentence for tax law violations. Someone, maybe one of the Duggars, posted photos of that, apparently proudly. This crowd probably considers it a badge of honor to be "persecuted" by the federal government in criminal court.  

I was writing this when @mythoughtis posted about the comments on the story on Fox news. Yep. Blame the wimmen, hate the gubmint, fly the flag, they love Josh and it's all good. Sigh.

[Lady Whistleup]

9 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

Read a Fox News article about the hearing. Nothing we didn’t already know. I was actually reading to see what the comments contained.  How many of you guessed that they think it’s Anna’s fault because she should have somehow been able to monitor Josh better ?  How many of you guessed that they are more worried about other people that they think should be prosecuted for other alleged crimes that have nothing to do with this case  so Josh should be let go. 

I haven't read that but I did read something along the lines that his siblings HAVE to forgive him because that's the Christian thing to do. NO THEY DO NOT. If none of them ever want to be in the same room with him again that's their right.

[3girlsforus]

7 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

We cannot, we simply cannot have divided to the point where child abusive, particularly child sexually abusive matters, do not override politics.    It has always been untouchable, always.  

I went to the article and read multiple pages of comments. Didn’t see one that said or even implied he was anything but a sick twist who should rot. Not sure what the original poster thought she read. 

[Ohiopirate02]

19 minutes ago, NoThyme said:

has CPS examined or questioned the children to determine if they have been abused by their father? How do they allow them to live in a windowless house? 

The warrant for Josh's arrest was issued last week on April 30th.  We have to give CPS time to investigate.  It's been a week at this point.  CPS needs to do a thorough investigation and not rush it.  

[3girlsforus]

Just now, Ohiopirate02 said:

The warrant for Josh's arrest was issued last week on April 30th.  We have to give CPS time to investigate.  It's been a week at this point.  CPS needs to do a thorough investigation and not rush it.  

Can CPS put a halt to his visitation even though the feds said he can see them?

[GeeGolly]

It should come at no surprise that Josh has defenders, yet to me it is surprising.

The abuse he's charged with is not about the right to strike your child. Its not about the right to homeschool your child. Its not about the right to make poor medical decisions for your child. Its not about forcing your minor child to carry a pregnancy to term. Its not even about a 'curious brother'.

I don't know how in anyone's mind it is okay to do what Josh has been accused of.

[Tikichick]

Just now, 3girlsforus said:

I went to the article and read multiple pages of comments. Didn’t see one that said or even implied he was anything but a sick twist who should rot. Not sure what the original poster thought she read. 

Very well could be the site purged those comments.

Like I said, child sexual abuse has always been completely out of bounds, unquestionably.   Society as a whole repudiates it, as we should.

[NoThyme]

If this case goes to court do you think that it will expose the ugly views of their religion? Would the prosecutor be able to present how their religion represents victims of abuse? How they heal and what they say to victims of abuse? The whole thing is sick. There are a few posts showing what they learn in Gothard (sp). If so I would imagine they will cop a plea so their beliefs and teachings are not put on trial. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by NoThyme
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[Jeanne222]

2 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The warrant for Josh's arrest was issued last week on April 30th.  We have to give CPS time to investigate.  It's been a week at this point.  CPS needs to do a thorough investigation and not rush it.  

I don't think we will hear anything about any CPS involvement!

Remember the Duggers statement after the feds were there..'Nothing to see here'!

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, 3girlsforus said:

Can CPS put a halt to his visitation even though the feds said he can see them?

Yes.    Completely separate matters, completely separate jurisdiction.   The federal judge's ruling was issued at a time when no other matters existed to preclude Josh from visiting his children.   If there had been another action with court orders in place, the federal judge would have respected them.

What happened and how it happened at that bond hearing helps if a child protective matter is opened.   It's not impossible it was intended that way. 

[BitterApple]

I know opinions vary on Anna, but I've lost all sympathy at this point. The fact that she went with Joshley to turn himself in is yet another example of her choosing her husband over her children. 

People will make excuses that she's brainwashed, another victim, trapped in the cult, etc., but to me she's no different than the countless "real world" women who allow boyfriends/husbands to get away with abuse because they can't imagine life without a man. I'm done with her. The only ones I feel sorry for are the kids.

[Ijustwantsomechips]

1 hour ago, Dr.OO7 said:

This article, which offers up some pretty disturbing details about the images in Josh's possession:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/josh-duggar-child-pornography-case-trial-bail-home-confinement-000211966.html

This part of the article is particularly disturbing: “It was also noted the screensaver on the desktop allegedly used to view child porn was a photo of Josh with Anna and their children.”

I’ve been silent on this forum for months, but I’ve got some observations. Let me give my disclaimer that this is going to sound real bitchy and I might get my hand slapped again.  I just rummaged through my pockets, and it turns out I’m fresh out of fucks to give so here goes.  

1. I have zero sympathy for Anna. Josh has always been a sleazy, smarmy creep, and she continues to procreate with him.  Yeah, she may be a brainwashed cult member, but she’s spent the last few years touting his virtues all while the public knew he molested his sisters, cheated, and during this investigation into child sexual exploitation.  Ma’am, you married and stayed with a kidddie diddler, so you can fuck right off the highest cliff in the Ozarks.

2. Yes, CPS should be involved. Yes, it is traumatic to remove children from their homes, but if it comes to that it comes to that. Please understand that if the Duggars were black, or brown, or poor folks living in the hills, the kids would have already been gone and parsed out to multiple foster homes.

3. I have no sympathy for the Reaver (Reavers?) either.  Maybe they are trying to be good Christians, but it sounds like some arrogance at play to me.  You alone think you’re capable of managing and monitoring someone capable of these atrocities huh?  Because you’re so much closer to God? Good luck with that! People may follow certain religious beliefs with good intentions in the beginning, but extremist beliefs, in any religion, are about nothing more than wanting to feel special and superior. You want to believe you are right, and closer to God, and therefore better, than everyone else with differing beliefs.  I don’t know this Reaver fellow, but that’s the vibe I’m getting. The fact that he’d put his “Christian duty” and fealty to Jim Bob above his wife and daughter’s comfort and safety tells me all I need to know about him. 

4. I’d have told Jim Bob to beat it and changed my number. The real question everyone should be asking is why didn’t Jim Bob rent an apartment somewhere or move into one of his many properties with Josh? Then he could be his babysitter and that burden wouldn’t be on someone else.  Was family not eligible?

5. The one bright side is Josh being released just increases his chances to screw up again.  I’ll sit back and wait. 

6. I don’t necessarily think these events will trigger the sisters because they may not necessarily be traumatized by the abuse.  It’s all in how you process it.  I’m a victim of sexual abuse and not everything triggers me either. That’s surprising to people, but I find people’s expectations that certain things will trigger me more disturbing. YMMV. Regardless, I hope his victims and siblings get the support they need but I won’t hold my breath.

7. Even if they siblings read or heard the charges, I don’t think they can fully grasp what cp is. Yes, they know of pornography in the abstract sense, but to them, anything outside of marriage and slightly sexual could be porn.  Do they really get concept? The heinous nature? I’m not so sure. Sexual abuse is also so normalized for them that they’re probably somewhat desensitized. I just made myself sick typing that.

8. It’s not fair to the other siblings to be dragged into this, but the older children are adults, and it is up to them to take a stand as an autonomous individual or stay with the flock. I know that’s asking a lot of brainwashed “kids”, but now would be a good time to exert some independence from your dad. But again, how deep is your understanding of the crime and the charges to make you want to do that?  Aside from Derrick and Jeremy, I don’t think the others have a clue. 

9. And finally because this post is way to long, I’d love to see how TLC is going to continue to spin this.  Their “I don’t even know the guy” defense is pretty impotent when “the guy” in question has accessed close to 300 images of child sexual exploitation.    

Here’s the TL:DR version:

Josh, Anna, JimBob, Michelle, the Reavers, and TLC can fuck off. The siblings probably need therapy. Everyone with half a brain will distance themselves from this shit show ASAP.