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Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

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37 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Since Josh's lawyers requested the bond hearing, we know JB is onboard. Does that mean as long as Josh has everything lined up, his release will be automatically be approved?

I would think if the answer would be no, the hearing would have been denied to begin with.

The judge's wording was "if he is eligible for release," so it sounds to me like it is not necessarily a given. 

 

3 hours ago, ginger90 said:

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That was the most info I've seen directly from the court proceeding on the bond hearing--thank you! 

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2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I don't recall that version of the story.  On the show, Michelle was discussing the importance of women dressing modestly to avoid arousing men.  She talked about mowing the lawn in a bikini when she was in high school.  Her neighbor happened to see her, and, shortly afterwards, divorced his wife.  Michelle seemed to think that the sight of her in a swimsuit drove the man into a lustful frenzy which caused him to end his marriage.  

Michelle never said that her neighbor actually flirted with her, admired her bikini or otherwise expressed any interest in her.  Nor did the neighbor or his wife every tell her that her lawn mowing outfit had anything whatsoever to do with the collapse of the marriage.  Michelle apparently assumed she was just so darned irresistible that it was inevitably her fault.

And since he apparently didn’t approach Michelle after the divorce, he just couldn’t stand to be with his wife anymore after seeing Michelle’s body? He would rather be alone than with his wife - because of Michelle? Sure, that makes total sense.

(I wonder if JimBob but that in her head because HE is such a horn dog for her? Anyway, they’re nuts.)

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39 minutes ago, iwantcookies said:

I bet Josh rather be in jail than be out on bond and facing SEVERELY angry Jim Booger. Ooohhhh boy. Imagine that scene. 
 

Will they shave Josh’s head again and make him dig another pond? Or something worse, since that didn’t do the trick before?

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7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Hmm, not sure that not offering a bond hearing would be grounds for appeal. Its done all the time in this country. And all those folks are presumed innocent.

IMO, there's a few responsible reasons not to release Josh. His charges certainly could be considered a risk to the community. He has access to money, planes and pilots which could be considered a flight risk. 

 

 

Not offering a bond hearing at all absolutely would be a point any appellate attorney worth his salt will include in a bid for an appeal.   It won't be the only factor pointed to I'm sure.  If you're familiar with the appellate process you know that they swing on a very intricate web of minutiae and technicality and really aren't about what most people commonly assume.  Being forced to remain locked up without even being afforded the opportunity of a bail hearing so that you can have unfettered access to assist your attorney in your defense?   Yeah, that's a pretty key appellate issue that's going to be raised.  Note, that's a completely different thing from saying a judge MUST grant the bail.  

I certainly didn't say Josh had to be released, far from it.   The insular, self employed, asset laden, covert financial network of this family will definitely cut against his release.  They also have to tread gingerly as far as family ties as far as father of seven, tight knit family, etc.  given the number of minors, the number of residences and properties, etc.  Those types of things that normally cut one way in a bail hearing can also cut the other in a case like this.   I don't work in a federal setting so I wouldn't hazard a guess on how a judge will come down on the issue of bond.  

Everybody's been hanging on every word of every statement released by family members.     Make no mistake, at the very least JB & M's got approved, if not outright composed, by Josh's lawyer -- in no small part specifically with an eye to the posture that can be presented to the judge at a bail hearing.  His attorney made damn sure they didn't say anything the prosecution could present to the judge and lead to a denial of bail.  I suspect everyone in the family was asked to either remain silent or was given very specific boundaries it would be appreciated if they could remain within if they made a statement.          

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1 hour ago, Oldernowiser said:

I would think the prosecution would argue that the existence of those children is a reason to deny him bond, not grant it. It’s not like he’s been charged with Grand Theft Auto. 

Is the court allowed to use the molestation of his sisters as well as a reason to refuse bond or is that not in consideration because it never went to court? 

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1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Since Josh's lawyers requested the bond hearing, we know JB is onboard. Does that mean as long as Josh has everything lined up, his release will be automatically be approved?

I would think if the answer would be no, the hearing would have been denied to begin with.

I think it’s likely he will be offered bond. The Subway Jared guy got bond on similar charges but his actually included traveling to molest a child (can’t remember the legal term) so I would think Josh will be granted bond as well. Whether it’s too high to pay it is another story. 

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33 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Is Josh a licensed pilot?

Josh is barely licensed to drive.

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32 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Is Josh a licensed pilot?

We have never seen him piloting a plane. I think JD, sinner twin Jer and Josiah have been shown flying a plane.

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It just occurred to me that the transfer of assets into LLCs in Anna's name will likely be raised as a negative factor in a bond hearing, particularly if the timing was in the wake of the raid on the car lot.   

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I assume currently Anna receives a monthly stipend from Jim Bob. That amount of money might be fine for six kids under 10, but in five years it’s not going to be enough for seven kids including many teenagers. Does she go ask Jim Bob for a raise? I doubt he is going to adjust the stipend on his own. How awkward. Surely the family with their messed up beliefs is laying some of blame at her feet. Add to that the legal expenses and possible fines that Josh will incur. Again, how awkward that Anna is completely reliant on them. We may see the M kids get real, worldly jobs as soon as they are of age out of necessity.

Edited by Marshmallow Mollie
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3 hours ago, Rabbittron said:

Why do I have this strange feeling that Smugs is going to go to the federal country club prison in Englewood Colorado?

Possibly, or Texas, or Ohio.

He won’t get to choose.

Edited by ginger90
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13 minutes ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

I assume currently Anna receives a monthly stipend from Jim Bob. That amount of money might be fine for six kids under 10, but in five years it’s not going to be enough for seven kids including many teenagers. Does she go ask Jim Bob for a raise? I doubt he is going to adjust the stipend on his own. How awkward. Surely the family with their messed up beliefs is laying some of blame at her feet. Add to that the legal expenses and possible fines that Josh will incur. Again, how awkward that Anna is completely reliant on them. We may see the M kids get real, worldly jobs as soon as they are of age out of necessity.

Maybe he will send her back home to the Kellers. 

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21 minutes ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

I assume currently Anna receives a monthly stipend from Jim Bob. That amount of money might be fine for six kids under 10, but in five years it’s not going to be enough for seven kids including many teenagers. Does she go ask Jim Bob for a raise? I doubt he is going to adjust the stipend on his own. How awkward. Surely the family with their messed up beliefs is laying some of blame at her feet. Add to that the legal expenses and possible fines that Josh will incur. Again, how awkward that Anna is completely reliant on them. We may see the M kids get real, worldly jobs as soon as they are of age out of necessity.

I assume Anna, Josh, Jana etc have a duggar issued credit/debit card and someone checks all the charges each month. Josh and Anna seem to own no vehicle other than the junker RV. So they drive a car from the Duggar fleet. The only trips they take are with JB and Michelle or other family. Possibly Anna has a bit of money from the LLC property shifting shenanigans to buy household items, but I am not sure how much she would be free to spend.

Enough at least to buy that faux fireplace that doubles as tv storage she claimed JoshUa built.....🤣

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20 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I doubt law enforcement would inform the family per se.   I've started to consider if possibly Josiah was subpoenaed to testify in front of the grand jury, giving some insight into what was happening to the family as a whole, or parts of the family that were unaware, etc. 

ETA  That's awkwardly worded.   Not that Josiah would have testified as to the family, but being subpoenaed and testifying would have offered the family some insight into what was happening regarding the raid. 

With hindsight it's kind of noticeable that within the past couple months there have been some noticeable changes from several of the married couples, or tenseness.  And that last episode that aired, the "Easter" episode, was just Twilight Zone.  JD and Abbie were distinctly there to participate, but not a single comment aired from either one?   The awkwardness was palpable.   Jessa and Ben seem very tense.   Joy and Austin were discussed for a little while, although that also could have been related to their daughter needing to be examined by a specialist.   Jinger and Jeremy have been a trainwreck it seems no one can stop gawking at.

I doubt we'll ever know who knew what when, but it is interesting.      

Honestly as more get married , I think they are finding they don’t like each other as much. Or the spouses are suggesting to them know things in their world aren’t normal.  They may visit inlaws and see how other people act and do around each other.  
 

and i dont think josh has paid attention to anythibf jb has done with money 

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17 minutes ago, dariafan said:

Honestly as more get married , I think they are finding they don’t like each other as much. Or the spouses are suggesting to them know things in their world aren’t normal.  They may visit inlaws and see how other people act and do around each other. 

and i dont think josh has paid attention to anything jb has done with money 

I don't think any of them have any idea and that's how JB wants it.

Trying to think what Abbie said not all that long ago. something about she was used to budgeting/living on a budget or something and her comment was John never lived like that.

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21 minutes ago, dariafan said:

Honestly as more get married , I think they are finding they don’t like each other as much. Or the spouses are suggesting to them know things in their world aren’t normal.  They may visit inlaws and see how other people act and do around each other.  
 

and i dont think josh has paid attention to anythibf jb has done with money 

Josh only paid attention to his bank account balance.  As long as his needs were met, he wouldn't say anything about how JB handles the rest of the family's money.

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1 minute ago, crazy8s said:

I don't think any of them have any idea and that's how JB wants it.

Trying to think what Abbie said not all that long ago. something about she was used to budgeting/living on a budget or something and her comment was John never lived like that.

If I'm not mistaken, she was talking about a lack of regular, reliable income, so she was used to the idea of a steady paycheck and found it stressful to not have that and to still have to budget without that. 

Edited by Zella
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6 minutes ago, Zella said:

If I'm not mistaken, she was talking about a lack of regular, reliable income, so she was used to the idea of a steady paycheck and found it stressful to not have that and to still have to budget without that. 

thanks - I couldn't remember the context of what she said, just that it was about budgeting

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2 minutes ago, crazy8s said:

thanks - I couldn't remember the context of what she said, just that it was about budgeting

She also made mention of how she always lived on a schedule of going to bed at a certain time every night and waking up at a certain hour every morning & how John Boy (as she referred to him as) didn't grow up that way. She probably found out there was very little structure in that household. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Whyyouneedaname said:

She also made mention of how she always lived on a schedule of going to bed at a certain time every night and waking up at a certain hour every morning & how John Boy (as she referred to him as) didn't grow up that way. She probably found out there was very little structure in that household. 

 

Enough spouses have mentioned that that I think it would be really hard for any of the Duggar kids to work a normal job, at least at first. Just yet another way their parents screwed them over.

Edited by Zella
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7 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I don't recall that version of the story.  On the show, Michelle was discussing the importance of women dressing modestly to avoid arousing men.  She talked about mowing the lawn in a bikini when she was in high school.  Her neighbor happened to see her, and, shortly afterwards, divorced his wife.  Michelle seemed to think that the sight of her in a swimsuit drove the man into a lustful frenzy which caused him to end his marriage.  

Michelle never said that her neighbor actually flirted with her, admired her bikini or otherwise expressed any interest in her.  Nor did the neighbor or his wife every tell her that her lawn mowing outfit had anything whatsoever to do with the collapse of the marriage.  Michelle apparently assumed she was just so darned irresistible that it was inevitably her fault.

It was my best friend who told me this story, I wasn't watching the show until she told it to me. I can't even discuss it with her now because, sadly, she passed away years ago:( But if you say this is the way it happened DOODLEBUG, then it must be the right story. MY friend died from a brain tumor, it is very possible she got mixed up with this story. I also lost a daughter to brain cancer and I know that as it progresses, they get very mixed up about things. Sorry for putting the wrong info out there, thanks for clearing it up with the true story, I appreciate knowing how it really happened.

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23 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Josh only paid attention to his bank account balance.  As long as his needs were met, he wouldn't say anything about how JB handles the rest of the family's money.

I wonder, though…his “I am the first-borne, bow down ye peasants,” status took a pretty big hit after the second scandal. If JB really tightened his leash, I could definitely see Josh sneaking around to make sure he was still getting the money that in his mind he was entitled to. He’s apparently tech savvy, he has a lot of free time, he’s a known sneak, and I suspect he resents JB almost as much as he needs him.

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5 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Will they shave Josh’s head again and make him dig another pond? Or something worse, since that didn’t do the trick before?

Shave his whole body and make him dig two ponds?  As the Lord said, if thy right hand offends thee, dig ponds all over town until everyone has a pond.  Pond digging will prevent you from all transgressions, no matter how heinous. 

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According to TMZ Smuggar wants to be released so that he can be with Anna while she's pregnant. Surely the feds won't allow her to be his third party and won't allow him to be around his children while on bail. I expect him to be delusional and entitled, I just hope the prosecutors hold the line and burst his little smug bubble. 

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Just saw this:

In general, there is a rebuttable presumption that release should not be granted if it is alleged that a defendant has committed a crime for which the term of imprisonment is ten years of more, a defendant has committed an act of terrorism, a defendant has trafficked in humans, or the crime committed involved a minor.

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So according to TMZ, Josh's docs for bond include saying he's too famous to get away with fleeing (debatable but I say he's not that famous where a lot of people could identify him in public), he hasn't fled even though he's known since November 2019 and turned himself in (actually a good argument) so I guess people just assumed the raid was financial? The family very well could have known for a while since it says he's been in contact with the state, and he needs to take care of Anna---which, ah, good luck with that unless Anna would rather have Josh taking care of her than have her children in the home. 

 

https://www.tmz.com/2021/05/04/josh-duggar-requests-bail-not-flight-risk-child-porn-charges/

Edited by Gigi43
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4 minutes ago, Gigi43 said:

unless Anna would rather have Josh taking care of her than have her children in the home.

Unfortunately, I could actually see her agreeing to that. 

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13 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Just saw this:

In general, there is a rebuttable presumption that release should not be granted if it is alleged that a defendant has committed a crime for which the term of imprisonment is ten years of more, a defendant has committed an act of terrorism, a defendant has trafficked in humans, or the crime committed involved a minor.

Interesting. Where did you see that? 
 

Release to a third party isn’t considered release, it’s considered an alternative to detention, like an ankle monitor. It might seem to be a semantic difference but it impacts likelihood of release. This is an interesting piece on federal pretrial release considerations.

https://www.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/73_2_1_0.pdf

Edited by mynextmistake
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I have no doubt he will get out on bond tomorrow. Where he will go and with what restrictions will be interesting.

Duggar pal Caleb Williams raped and impregnated a minor and got 62 days in jail with work release. 18 mo parole - No internet without permission from his parole officer.  (who is monitoring that) That scum has been suing for partial custody of the child for quite a while.

 

Edited by crazy8s
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13 minutes ago, coconspirator said:

According to TMZ Smuggar wants to be released so that he can be with Anna while she's pregnant. Surely the feds won't allow her to be his third party and won't allow him to be around his children while on bail. I expect him to be delusional and entitled, I just hope the prosecutors hold the line and burst his little smug bubble. 

If anyone bothers to check out how well Josh “took care of” Anna when she was in labor, they’d know this is a big old crock. And it’s on tape.

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I think josh will go with Anna in the pole barn and the six kids will go to the big house!  What’s six more!

Anna can go there during the day and Baby Josh will be snug as a bug in a rug!

Yep!

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5 minutes ago, Zella said:

Unfortunately, I could actually see her agreeing to that. 

I hope not on so many levels.

That kind of thing really has the potential of opening the door for big-time CPS involvement.  Sadly it's not even a little bit uncommon in cases where a husband is facing accusations of sexual abuse of a child or children in the home for the wife to insist she's not going to break with her husband.   I legitimately cannot tell you how many parents I have seen lose parental rights for exactly that issue.  I can never wrap my brain around it.

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Question for our federal folks. 

How many third-party guardian candidates are you allowed to propose for this bond hearing?

My totally armchair guess is if Anna is the only candidate put forth, then his request for release is more likely to be turned down because it really is dumb of them and, at least to me, raises red flags about the likelihood of enforcement of the requirements actually happening.

But if she is one of a handful or is not mentioned, then I could see the request being more likely to be granted. (Though, again, I'm not really sure how much success anyone is going to have with supervising him.)

But I have no clue! Just spitballing. 

Edited by Zella
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8 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

Oh, please. Put him in a baseball hat and he’s identical to a million other fat guys from Arkansas. Or any state, really. Give me a break.

Jed! better go into hiding because he is totally Smuggar 2.0 in looks, size, hairline and smugness

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7 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

dr2dyuedl6x61.jpg

I cannot believe that an attorney with a history as a federal prosecutor and experience in these types of cases would actually draft a petition with that language minimizing the actual harm caused to children arising from the charges alleged here.   He would know that's going to face blistering and derisive opposition from the prosecution, like TV style oration fireworks. 

ETA  He would also be well aware just how unseemly it will look to propose Anna as monitor, knowing that would mean she would be abandoning six children with no parents to do so.    

Edited by Tikichick
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A 20 some year old Bentonville guy just got 30 years for this crime. He claimed that "since the images were from the 70's, the children were now adults so it shouldn't count.

Criminals, go figure. Is it too much to hope that Josh shared this lawyer?

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3 hours ago, Zella said:

If I'm not mistaken, she was talking about a lack of regular, reliable income, so she was used to the idea of a steady paycheck and found it stressful to not have that and to still have to budget without that. 

That's how I remember it as well. 

I don't think Anna's financial circumstances will change any time soon. She was reliant on JB for income, and I think she will continue to do so. Likely JB gives her a set amount to run her household on, and if she needs something irregular (like a major car repair) she has to ask him. IF JB keeps dolling out the allowance I dont think the M kids will suffer from lack of basic necessities.

I also think its like Anna would move back into the TTH before she went back to the Kellers and Mackynzie and Meredith will continue to provide domestic duties, child care for the nieces/nephews (as well as the younger M kids) and elder care for JB and Michelle as they age. Just because its simpler. The TTH has the room and they are already there. I also think the older M kids have attachments to their Duggar cousins and Anna likely wants to give them a chance to keep up those relationships. 

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14 minutes ago, Chicklet said:

A 20 some year old Bentonville guy just got 30 years for this crime. He claimed that "since the images were from the 70's, the children were now adults so it shouldn't count.

Criminals, go figure. Is it too much to hope that Josh shared this lawyer?

I wonder if some of the sentences are due to the results of a SORA (sexual offender risk assessment). If one is ordered for Josh as part of the trial or sentencing phase and the examiner comes back with the conclusion that he is high risk (or low risk, on the opposite end) to reoffend with the same or worse behavior, that might influence his sentence if he's convicted or offers a plea. 

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23 minutes ago, Chicklet said:

A 20 some year old Bentonville guy just got 30 years for this crime. He claimed that "since the images were from the 70's, the children were now adults so it shouldn't count.

Criminals, go figure. Is it too much to hope that Josh shared this lawyer?

I saw that. His was state.

He pleaded guilty to 20 counts of distributing, possessing or viewing matter depicting sexually explicit conduct involving a child.

A friend of his initially reported it to police. I say good for the friend!

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

That kind of thing really has the potential of opening the door for big-time CPS involvement.  Sadly it's not even a little bit uncommon in cases where a husband is facing accusations of sexual abuse of a child or children in the home for the wife to insist she's not going to break with her husband.   I legitimately cannot tell you how many parents I have seen lose parental rights for exactly that issue.  I can never wrap my brain around it.

It happens far, far too frequently.  A friend of mine would not break from her husband even after a dreadful incident with their newborn second child.  It took her so much effort to regain custody of the first child and then she complained because she was on the state's register and couldn't adopt.  She to this day swears she did nothing wrong.  Telling her straight up you stayed with the abuser what did you expect still gets a string of excuses.  She lived through it all and still can't see it or can't admit it.  

Anna seems even less attached to the real world and probably would make the same mistake.

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Scarlett45

Guidelines for the thread:

Charges have been made public that specifically name possession of Child Sexual Abuse Material, discussion of charges are allowed. However, discussion of victims, or possible victims (and their identities) related to these charges are NOT ALLOWED
We are not here to provide content for ghoulish rubbernecking- there is no need to discuss the graphic details related to these charges, the moderators are not going to police posts for graphic content- posts will be removed and violators will be warned. Do not attempt to circumvent this guideline with spoiler tags.

You MAY discuss the 2015 scandals, and any statement a NOW ADULT victim has made public as previously instructed, but speculation on unnamed victims or minor victims is NOT allowed. 

Jokes, asides, memes etc regarding the sexual assault of anyone, INCLUDING Josh Duggar are not allowed.

As of May 10, 2021: Please respect the privacy of the Reber family, discussion of their social media postings, public statements to the press/court testimony are acceptable. Discussion of their activities on their property, their schedule, where/how they run their errands not acceptable. Again, discussion of social media/court statements/public statements to the press- FINE, "So and So saw the Rebers standing in their yard/grocery shopping/getting gas"- NOT fine. 

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