Jump to content
Forums forums
PRIMETIMER
maraleia

Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

Recommended Posts

Just now, GeeGolly said:

Maybe they reached out to this guy last November and hired him, for if and when something went down. Or maybe they hired him on the day of they arrest.

True. If it was day of, he returns his calls way faster than the attorneys I've tried to contact over the years! 

  • Like 5
  • Laugh 7

Share this post


Link to post

I suppose if there is a trial we will get the true story, but if he changes his plea we may never know.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Zella said:

True. If it was day of, he returns his calls way faster than the attorneys I've tried to contact over the years! 

Well this lawyer agreed to defend Josh, so there's something that likely isn't quite right about him. lol

  • Like 12
  • Useful 1
  • Laugh 7

Share this post


Link to post
34 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

They knew about the raid in 2019.  They had to know some type of charges could follow it.  I dont thing the family as a whole knew what Josh had done, but the feds are not in the habit of doing random raids.  Josh had serious legal representation already lined up the day after his arrest.   This lawyer from St. Louis is not the kind of lawyer people have on speed dial. 

Josh had to know what was on his work computer.

And I would think that, even if he thought he'd deleted stuff -- although why would he if he were the only person who used the computer-- the knowledge of what somebody might find on it would have nagged at him as it would nag at anybody in that position, no matter how arrogant or dim the person, I would think.

Is it possible that sometime over the past year and a half -- maybe even quite soon after the raid -- this started weighing on him so much that he called his parents (or just JB) and told them/him at least in vague terms what "may have been" on the computer -- and then JB called his lawyers at that point and asked them to put together a suitable team? And the Story firm found the St. Louis lawyer through their connections and brought him in -- so things were lined up well in advance even though nobody knew exactly when or even if an arrest would happen? 

That could have been done without actually informing anybody else the family. Although there'd probably be enough nervous scurrying surrounding it that the feeling that something was up would have spread.....

 

  • Like 10
  • Useful 3

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

Well this lawyer agreed to defend Josh, so there's something that likely isn't quite right about him. lol

True! The one attorney I use for garden-variety legal stuff sometimes doesn't call back for a week. But I'm not paying him what I imagine the Duggars are shelling out for this dude.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Josh had to know what was on his work computer.

And I would think that, even if he thought he'd deleted stuff -- although why would he if he were the only person who used the computer-- the knowledge of what somebody might find on it would have nagged at him as it would nag at anybody in that position, no matter how arrogant or dim the person, I would think.

Is it possible that sometime over the past year and a half -- maybe even quite soon after the raid -- this started weighing on him so much that he called his parents (or just JB) and told them/him at least in vague terms what "may have been" on the computer -- and then JB called his lawyers at that point and asked them to put together a suitable team? And the Story firm found the St. Louis lawyer through their connections and brought him in -- so things were lined up well in advance even though nobody knew exactly when or even if an arrest would happen? 

That could have been done without actually informing anybody else the family. Although there'd probably be enough nervous scurrying surrounding it that the feeling that something was up would have spread.....

 

I'd buy that. I could see Josh talking to JB but I don't see them involving "the women." When did Josh and Anna move onto the compound? Was that right after the raid?

  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post

1 minute ago, Tuxcat said:

I'd buy that. I could see Josh talking to JB but I don't see them involving "the women." When did Josh and Anna move onto the compound? Was that right after the raid?

I think they moved to the compound a year after returning to AR after Ashley Madison. That would have been a couple of years before the raid.

  • Useful 6

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Maybe they reached out to this guy last November and hired him, for if and when something went down. Or maybe they hired him on the day of the arrest.

Does anyone have the name of the lawyer in St. Louis?  I'd like to know what area of law he specializes in.

  • Useful 2

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, Zella said:

True! The one attorney I use for garden-variety legal stuff sometimes doesn't call back for a week. But I'm not paying him what I imagine the Duggars are shelling out for this dude.

Won't be helpful for keeping the treasury stocked to support dozens of uneducated people for decades. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Does anyone have the name of the lawyer in St. Louis?  I'd like to know what area of law he specializes in.

The lawyer is Justin Gelfand.  According to LinkedIn, he specializes in taxes, fraud and identity theft.

  • Useful 11

Share this post


Link to post

Has Dreck, 4th year law student been a TH for hire yet? The local yokel news channel?

Would love some insider descriptions how chaotic the compund was when the sh*t hit the fan...one of the "little" kids spilling the beans to Jilly in exchange for Chick Fil A  and Starbucks gift cards...

Perfect opportunity to fill the Dillard coffers with teevee money and give double fisted middle fingers at JimBlob...

 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post

Between bail and attorney fees, this could get very expensive. Plus different housing for Josh. Most of the family relies heavily on the family coffers, which will now go to Josh?! Uneven distribution of money tears apart families. They might have stood by Josh for “Christian” reasons, but I bet a lot will turn on Josh, JB, and Michelle if their money train slows or stops due to Josh’s financial needs.

I absolutely think he will plead out. Can you imagine who all could be supeoned (sp?) for a trial, and no one wants that.

  • Like 10
  • Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Does anyone have the name of the lawyer in St. Louis?  I'd like to know what area of law he specializes in.

https://margulisgelfand.com/team/justingelfand/

He's a former federal prosecutor. His "Representative Matters" section of the bio mentions quite a few sex crimes cases where he claims he got an acquittal or persuaded them not to prosecute, but I assume those were on the state and not federal level. 

Edited by Zella
  • Like 1
  • Useful 13

Share this post


Link to post

I think it's possible that the Duggars (and TLC?) knew something was coming, although I doubt they knew when and possibly not what either. I've noticed that things have been a little weird chez Duggars for a while now. 

1- Two weddings on very short notice without any TLC filming. Even if they were about to be moved to occasional special status, you'd think wee Justin, the kid we saw grow up, would merit a wedding special.

2- The Duggars as a whole have been backing away from (public) expressions of their extremism (see, more of the girls wearing pants, no evidence that any of the 3rd gen are getting blanket trained) but then Jed!, who probably has the most to gain by putting forward a relatively mainstream facade, goes all hard-core fundie with a rumoured betrothal and an established focus on obedience that none of his married siblings had.

3- TLC hasn't said yea or nay about a renewal, despite the challenges of getting new programming in covid and the fact that Discovery is trying to get enough exclusive content for both D+ and cable.

4- The Vuolos, whose first child earned the nickname prop, have suddenly pulled their kids from sm without explanation.

5- The Vuolos certainly look like they're trying (and failing) to get other money-making ventures going post haste. What's the rush unless they knew something was up.? 

Edited by satrunrose
  • Like 13
  • Useful 6

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, hathorlive said:

From his website:

"Won acquittal of all of the most serious counts—those carrying mandatory minimums of decades in prison and maximums of life—in a federal sex trafficking jury trial in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri; in a pleading, the federal prosecutor claimed her star witness “was mercilessly questioned by defense counsel [Justin Gelfand].”

"Won complete acquittal in a Missouri sex crimes jury trial."

 

"Persuaded Missouri prosecutors not to prosecute a juvenile accused of a sex crime."

"Persuaded Missouri prosecutors not to prosecute a man accused of a sex crime against a child."

"Persuaded Missouri prosecutors not to prosecute a man accused of a sex crime against a child."

 

This guy was on speed dial and retainer for a reason.  The Duggars knew what was going down.

Yeah I noticed those after I posted the link. He definitely seems to have this as a specialty, even if he doesn't advertise it as such when he lists his specialties. 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post

1 minute ago, Zella said:

I suppose it is quite possible the people he defended were truly innocent, but I have my doubts.

I suspect most of the time he doesn't actually get an acquittal, he gets the prosecution to accept a guilty plea to a lesser charge.  That doesn't sound as good though in the bragging about how I do my job good department.

  • Like 16
  • Useful 2
  • Laugh 1

Share this post


Link to post
27 minutes ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

Can you imagine who all could be supeoned (sp?) for a trial, and no one wants that.

Yeah but the Duggars love being in the spotlight.  Who knows they may be stupid enough to think their testimony will be a fight against satan or something.  They are that twisted.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post

The rushed weddings rang alarm bells for me. TLC lives for wedding specials. But it's as if the Duggars were determined to marry their sons off ASAP.

  • Like 15
  • Useful 4

Share this post


Link to post

9 minutes ago, satrunrose said:

I think it's possible that the Duggars (and TLC?) knew something was coming, although I doubt they knew when and possibly not what either. I've noticed that things have been a little weird chez Duggars for a while now. 

1- Two weddings on very short notice without any TLC filming. Even if they were about to be moved to occasional special status, you'd think wee Justin, the kid we saw grow up, would merit a wedding special.

2- The Duggars as a whole have been backing away from (public) expressions of their extremism (see, more of the girls wearing pants, no evidence that any of the 3rd gen are getting blanket trained) but then Jed!, who probably has the most to gain by putting forward a relatively mainstream facade, goes all hard-core fundie with a rumoured betrothal and an established focus on obedience that none of his married siblings had.

3- TLC hasn't said yea or nay about a renewal, despite the challenges of getting new programming in covid and the fact that Discovery is trying to get enough exclusive content for both D+ and cable.

4- The Vuolos, whose first child earned the nickname prop, have suddenly pulled their kids from sm without explanation.

5- The Vuolos certainly look like they're trying (and failing) to get other money-making ventures going post haste. What's the rush unless they knew something was up.? 

Okay I am starting to buy the theory that JB and Josh knew. The fancy lawyer indicates that they at least knew to be prepared. 

But I don't know why they would have encouraged Jed to run for office or Jeremy and Jinger to write a wholesome book.  So I still think the rest of the family were really in the dark about what could happen.

And The Vuolos did stop posting daughter pictures from social media but left ALL THE old PHOTOS of Felicity up. If they were concerned about Josh and those implication - they would have pulled all those photos. I think Jinger was just tired of constant criticisms TBH.

 

  • Like 19

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

No one else would have to confess per se.  Josh's lawyer would have to show that Josh was not the only one who had access to the device(s) in question.   Or that Josh was not at the car lot on whatever date and time the download occurred. 

You're correct, but the only other people with access to that computer would be his brothers ? Correct ?

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Okay I am starting to buy the theory that JB and Josh knew. The fancy lawyer indicates that they at least knew to be prepared. 

But I don't know why they would have encouraged Jed to run for office or Jeremy and Jinger to write a wholesome book.  So I still think the rest of the family were really in the dark about what could happen.

And The Vuolos did stop posting daughter pictures from social media but left ALL THE old PHOTOS of Felicity up. If they were concerned about Josh and those implication - they would have pulled all those photos. I think Jinger was just tired of constant criticisms TBH.

 

I still don't think so.

The Story lawyer may know the other lawyer from previous cases.

The weddings didn't appear to be rushed to me. Justin met Claire two years ago and Jed dated Katey for a year.

There was also a pandemic happening for the last year.

The lack of EJ pics is due to, IMO, the chapter in the book about how hard it was growing up in the public eye.

I don't think they knew. They're Duggars, they think they're like Teflon.

Edited by GeeGolly
  • Like 15
  • Useful 5

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

You're correct, but the only other people with access to that computer would be his brothers ? Correct ?

Yeah that potential defense seems like it would just create more problems for the family than it solves. 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, WinnieWinkle said:

How does someone live with themselves when their specialty is getting sex abuse perps acquited?  

I've always said that everyone deserves a defense attorney in this country.  Is the basis of our legal system. I just don't have to provide that service for someone. I'll be the first person to rip the feds is their case and evidence is bad.  But I won't consult and do it for the suspect.

 

6 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Okay I am starting to buy the theory that JB and Josh knew. The fancy lawyer indicates that they at least knew to be prepared. 

But I don't know why they would have encouraged Jed to run for office or Jeremy and Jinger to write a wholesome book.  So I still think the rest of the family were really in the dark about what could happen.

And The Vuolos did stop posting daughter pictures from social media but left ALL THE old PHOTOS of Felicity up. If they were concerned about Josh and those implication - they would have pulled all those photos. I think Jinger was just tired of constant criticisms TBH.

 

I wonder how many times Josh "borrowed" a brother's computer that had internet access. I wonder how many Duggar boys are secretly freaking out.

I think JB's thinking is that if you have 18 stellar kids involved in writing, publishing, social media content, and politics, and you have 1 in jail, you are still ahead in the respectability race.

  • Like 19

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

You're correct, but the only other people with access to that computer would be his brothers ? Correct ?

I dont know who else worked at the carlot in 2019.  I would hope if JB is footing the bill that the defense is not, "it wasn't Josh, its Josiah.* "  that could lead to Josiah getting prosecuted, and JB shelling out more money to get Josiah acquitted.  

* first Duggar boys name that I thought of. 

Edited by Ohiopirate02
  • Like 5
  • Sad 2

Share this post


Link to post

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

JB and Michelle have been investigated by authorities back in 2015 after the first scandal broke.  They were not charged with any crime.  Then they were able to adopt Tyler, Michelle's niece's son.  They fostered Tyler before adopting, so a social worker or two has been in their home more than once. 

While many will find them morally repugnant,  they have not done anything illegal.   Even with Josh, they did seek out help, a state trooper who believed in the correct Jesus.  Now that guy turned out also to be charged with possession of CSA images.  

JB and Michelle have guardianship of Tyler, they have NOT adopted him.

  • Like 1
  • Useful 6

Share this post


Link to post

No one has mentioned this yet but the type of material Josh had on his computer presumably is not available for free.  Given that you can’t pay in cash online there must be some sort of paper trail.

  • Like 4
  • Useful 15

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

This is going to be tough to win for a defense attorney, and if he does, what do the Duggars get in return -- Josh.

Talk about you can't win for losing.  This is never going to end for the Duggars with regard to Josh.  Even if he doesn't get convicted - this time - eventually there will be another scandal.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

  • Like 21

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, SMama said:

JB and Michelle have guardianship of Tyler, they have NOT adopted him.

Oh, I thought they had adopted him.  They still had social workers popping onto the house though.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

5 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

No one has mentioned this yet but the type of material Josh had on his computer presumably is not available for free.  Given that you can’t pay in cash online there must be some sort of paper trail.

A lot of it is available for free, if you know where to go.  There are forums that look legit and have hidden forums that are pay for play.  There are some forums that only allow you to join if you provide "new" content.  I'll leave that to your imagination.  This stuff is not hard to find.  And if you do have to pay, there's always Bitcoin, which makes it untraceable for the most part.

Edited by hathorlive
  • Like 1
  • Useful 9
  • Surprise 4
  • Sad 5

Share this post


Link to post
30 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I take this to mean he's a shark in the court room.  He'll have expert witnesses in forensics to refute the prosecutions witnesses.  He doesn't have to be an expert in sex crimes, just an expert in manipulating juries, picking up flaws in logic in real time and using experts who can undermine the governments case.  Not totally unusual. We've all faced expert defense witnesses. But the Duggars not sticking with just Story or someone else local, tells you how serious they view this.

"Shark" is right. This is what jumped out at me from his resume -- Won acquittal of all of the most serious counts—those carrying mandatory minimums of decades in prison and maximums of life—in a federal sex trafficking jury trial in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri; in a pleading, the federal prosecutor claimed her star witness “was mercilessly questioned by defense counsel [Justin Gelfand].”

  • Like 1
  • Sad 7

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, WinnieWinkle said:

How does someone live with themselves when their specialty is getting sex abuse perps acquited?  

Maybe you just remind yourself of the McMartin preschool case every day or something? Everybody deserves fair representation in our system. And sometimes the charges are wrong....

And some lawyers just love fighting in court, I think. I think you can like that combat the same way some surgeons really just love skillfully cutting into bodies and aren't really interested in patients or their health. What they like is the technique of it all and their own skill. Maybe this guy just loves argumentative combat. And it looks like he may have loved it both as a prosecutor and as defense attorney. 

Edited by Churchhoney
  • Like 13
  • Useful 4

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

"Shark" is right. This is what jumped out at me from his resume -- Won acquittal of all of the most serious counts—those carrying mandatory minimums of decades in prison and maximums of life—in a federal sex trafficking jury trial in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri; in a pleading, the federal prosecutor claimed her star witness “was mercilessly questioned by defense counsel [Justin Gelfand].”

I am assuming there won't be witnesses since it's CP, so I don't know who the attorney could go after. Unless, JB and Josh throw a brother or employee under the bus.

  • Sad 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Kiss my mutt said:

I hope the lawyer bleeds them dry and Josh still goes to prison for a long time. 

It’s got to be at least six figures for the defense. That makes me smile.

  • Like 22
  • Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, Churchhoney said:

Everybody deserves fair representation in our system. And sometimes the charges are wrong....

Oh absolutely true, but I strongly suspect in most CP or other child abuse situations it's not really a case of a lawyer believing in the innocence of his or her client that is the motivator for their being a "shark" in the courtroom.  If they just feel that everyone deserves a good defense, well, more power to them I guess, but that doesn't make them admirable people IMO.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I was just wondering that. I know every defendant is entitled to a proper defense, but the hell if I'd be bragging about those cases. I suppose it is quite possible the people he defended were truly innocent, but I have my doubts. 

It will be interesting to see if there's an eventual about-face and a plea before it goes to trial, which would suggest Fancy Shark didn't think this would fare well for Josh in court. 

And even if it does go to trial and he's a real terror in the courtroom, I can't help but think the details that are revealed could/will make Josh look even worse than the charges already do. 

Well, we don't know what the lawyer's going to do yet. And he does sort of highlight some cases where he got the thing done out of court.....

So he may be more inclined to deal with defendants honestly about their guilt and urge people to plea than his resume shows.....?

After all, that's not what most people want to hear from a lawyer, so maybe he does believe in that and will try to avoid putting on a vicious defense of somebody who is guilty, but just feature that in his advertising? 

1 hour ago, MsJamieDornan said:

You're correct, but the only other people with access to that computer would be his brothers ? Correct ?

Does anybody know for sure if more than one person worked at Josh's car lot in the past few years or whether the other brothers only worked at the other lot? I've never been clear on that....

 

Edited by Churchhoney
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Quote
14 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yeah that potential defense seems like it would just create more problems for the family than it solves.

 

I guess that was my point.    That would be a common defense tactic for anyone else,  but they cant try to blame co-workers because they are all his brothers and they certainly can't use the defense kids play with his laptop at home. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, realityfan26 said:

I am assuming there won't be witnesses since it's CP, so I don't know who the attorney could go after. Unless, JB and Josh throw a brother or employee under the bus.

Maybe he's shark-y enough to really go after an expert witness in an intense and intimidating way? -- a technical person giving evidence to explain how they know that Josh deliberately sought the material out and proactively brought into the computer and accessed it numerous times or something? 

It would probably be hard to find holes in that kind of evidence and to rattle such a witness...but I would guess some lawyers do try....

Edited by Churchhoney
  • Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, we don't know what the lawyer's going to do yet. And he does sort of highlight some cases where he got the thing done out of court.....

 

He also doesn't mention the cases where he didn't get anything done. Maybe he 'won' (or got a plea, etc) in 5 cases, but lost 100. I'm too lazy to look up his record, but he's not going to highlight those on his website. 🙂

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
10 minutes ago, realityfan26 said:

I am assuming there won't be witnesses since it's CP, so I don't know who the attorney could go after. Unless, JB and Josh throw a brother or employee under the bus.

The witnesses he attacked were the prosecution witnesses, the guy who filed the charges, the forensic people, the crime scene people who collected evidence. Not witnesses to abuse, but those who are presenting evidence for the government.  People like me.

Edited by hathorlive
  • Like 5
  • Useful 8

Share this post


Link to post

This is Gothard stuff?????  Didn’t Jesus say that anyone who offends children, it would be better for them to have a millstone around their neck and be drowned, rather than harm a child? image.jpeg.2e9edb64e86b6fc40c49a638ce969fde.jpeg

  • Like 8
  • Sad 8

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Well this lawyer agreed to defend Josh, so there's something that likely isn't quite right about him. lol

The guilty pay their legal bills just as easily as the innocent.  I expect that this guy, who handles federal cases, is used to having sleazy clients.  If the Duggars had the assets to pay his retainer, that is all he needed to know.  While the rest of us find Josh repugnant, the sort of people this guy represents would be glad to have a lawyer who worked with a semi-high profile client like Josh.  A case like this, with the media covering, would be good for the bottom line.

Edited by doodlebug
  • Like 15

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

It would probably be hard to find holes in that kind of evidence...but I would guess some lawyers do try....

If Josh (or any accused person) insists on going to trial I guess this is one of the only avenues a lawyer would have really.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Scarlett45

Guidelines for the thread:

Charges have been made public that specifically name possession of Child Sexual Abuse Material, discussion of charges are allowed. However, discussion of victims, or possible victims (and their identities) related to these charges are NOT ALLOWED
We are not here to provide content for ghoulish rubbernecking- there is no need to discuss the graphic details related to these charges, the moderators are not going to police posts for graphic content- posts will be removed and violators will be warned. Do not attempt to circumvent this guideline with spoiler tags.

You MAY discuss the 2015 scandals, and any statement a NOW ADULT victim has made public as previously instructed, but speculation on unnamed victims or minor victims is NOT allowed. 

Jokes, asides, memes etc regarding the sexual assault of anyone, INCLUDING Josh Duggar are not allowed.

As of May 10, 2021: Please respect the privacy of the Reber family, discussion of their social media postings, public statements to the press/court testimony are acceptable. Discussion of their activities on their property, their schedule, where/how they run their errands not acceptable. Again, discussion of social media/court statements/public statements to the press- FINE, "So and So saw the Rebers standing in their yard/grocery shopping/getting gas"- NOT fine. 

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Customize font-size