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Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

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15 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

That may be true for most of the other kids, but I'm not sure it is as to Josh. As the firstborn, he was old enough to remember how his family life changed when JB and Michelle became fundies and Gothardites. IIRC Josh actually attended school, kindergarten and maybe first grade. He may be a moral idiot, but IMO he's not intellectually stupid, and we all know that kids can be very discerning about what they see and hear in their direct experience. 

Even in the early days of the TLC shows, it was said that Josh had wanted to be a lawyer. There was AFAIK no discussion of that on the show that showed anybody taking Josh's lawyer talk seriously.  If his eejit parents thought it was okay for Josh to want to do that, they could have figured out how to parlay Josh's home school high school education into college and law school for him. But that comment about wanting to be a lawyer IIRC was just handled as just one of those idle "things kids say," like a five year old who says that when she grows up she wants to be a a rockstar. Cute, but not anything to take seriously.

Josh had a mainstream life as a small child, then experienced his parents going fundie/Gothard, pulling him out of school, limiting his life to an existence where he mainly interacted with the growing number of babies his parents pumped out, and with non-relatives at fundie/Gothard/ATI/IBLP gatherings - and he was aware of the differences. He was the favored child, the designated Crown Prince of the Duggar kingdom. [ETA: I've just remembered that when Josh was a kid, JB served a term or so in the Arkansas legislature, and he took Josh with him to the Capital every day, all the time, even to hearings and meetings where the subject matter was not appropriate for a 12 year old or whatever age Josh was then. So Josh got glimpses of the world beyond his crowded family home for a few years there. and probably entertained ideas of being involved in that world - but instead JB lost his Senate race and the days of going to the Capitol were over for Josh.]

I think that the last thing in the world that Josh wanted, was to follow in his parents' footsteps and live the life they wanted him to, even as the favored Crown Prince of the family.  I think a lot of his behavior has come from his passive-aggressive obedience to his parents' script for his life. His one attempt to chart his own course in life - getting the FRC job and moving away - blew up and landed him back in Arkansas and firmly under his parents' thumbs once again. 

I believe he's not on board with the baby train thing, and would have liked a family with just a few children. I think he's a weak and troubled guy. And if it's true he's committed crimes so bad as to get the attention of law enforcement (and FEDERAL law enforcement at that), then he's a weak and troubled criminal. I doubt anybody forced him to commit crimes. 

I doubt he really shares his family's religious beliefs, although he doesn't see any way out of that world, and goes along with it all.  

I never knew Josh went to a real school at all, or had lived a mainstream lifestyle for a time during his childhood.   I can see that being spun by JB & Co. in light of continuing events with Josh.  

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I feel bad for the kids, yes. Not sure how badly I feel for Anna at this point. I do not feel bad, however, for looking forward to Josh getting punished for whatever it is he did. If you commit a crime, you deserve punishment regardless of the effects on your spouse and children. Perhaps Josh should have thought about those effects before he did whatever it is he did. He received virtually no consequences for abusing his sisters, and we all know how much he appeared to learn from that. I am glad for whatever consequences he is about to get.

It's also possible the environment in the Smuggar home is so toxic with Josh there that the kids could feel relief at having him gone. We don't know what the real situation is in that warehouse. Perhaps this situation will also be a catalyst for the show to end at last and some of the children to finally become disillusioned with the cult they're in and move to more mainstream lives. That would be a positive consequence for all of these kids.

On a lighter note..."smugshot" is pure genius. Dying over that one. 🤣

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4 hours ago, Annb67 said:

So if it is financial, tax fraud situation; is that guaranteed some jail time?

Usually yes. Depending on what the charges are sometimes the time can be light -- like a year in prison and then 3-5 years of supervised release with the ankle bracelet (the federal equivalent of probation) which for this family is NBD because they spend all day every day on the compound anyway so more time to pray and make babies.

But it may not be a light sentence IF it's a financial/tax fraud that he's been engaged in over years and years; the lighter sentences are like for a one time embezzlement and you never did it again. If they've been manipulating income/not paying taxes/money laundering for years, that's a different type of charge with a higher sentence because it'll be a larger amount of financial "damage" to the gov't if they haven't paid taxes or to their victims say if they've money laundered.

Though aren't all of their fortunes tied here? If this IS a financial fraud type of thing, you know it was set up by JB because Josh isn't bright enough to do that. But I have a heard time believing it was just set up by JB for Josh ALONE.  All of the brothers and Ben work in the same ridiculous "businesses" like warehouse leasing or towing or the car lot -- they're all drawing income from any such fraud. But I wonder if the difference is that JB and Josh knew it was a fraud whereas Ben and co. were like -- what I got a paycheck for sweeping the garage and selling a car last month.

IDK because this is Josh alone -- and not JB or any of the brothers -- and given his history with his sisters; Ashley Madison; and prostitution -- IDK I feel like there could be something more and something more sordid than financial crime. I'm a fed court lawyer not a therapist but those kinds of problems don't just get fixed because your wife makes 3 more babies with you and is more attentive to your needs and you go to a few weeks of Christian counseling here and there.

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24 minutes ago, SMama said:

I think is very telling that Jill hasn’t turned off comments in her IG. She’s getting rightfully needed support. I bet it chaps JB’s hide. I hope the positive reinforcement helps Jill in her healing journey. Clearly the only one no longer under JB’s thumb. 

She's getting worthless lip-service from leg humpers.   And she relishes every useless, uninformed, prayerful, meaningless word of it.  

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9 minutes ago, cereality said:

Usually yes. Depending on what the charges are sometimes the time can be light -- like a year in prison and then 3-5 years of supervised release with the ankle bracelet (the federal equivalent of probation) which for this family is NBD because they spend all day every day on the compound anyway so more time to pray and make babies.

But it may not be a light sentence IF it's a financial/tax fraud that he's been engaged in over years and years; the lighter sentences are like for a one time embezzlement and you never did it again. If they've been manipulating income/not paying taxes/money laundering for years, that's a different type of charge with a higher sentence because it'll be a larger amount of financial "damage" to the gov't if they haven't paid taxes or to their victims say if they've money laundered.

Though aren't all of their fortunes tied here? If this IS a financial fraud type of thing, you know it was set up by JB because Josh isn't bright enough to do that. But I have a heard time believing it was just set up by JB for Josh ALONE.  All of the brothers and Ben work in the same ridiculous "businesses" like warehouse leasing or towing or the car lot -- they're all drawing income from any such fraud. But I wonder if the difference is that JB and Josh knew it was a fraud whereas Ben and co. were like -- what I got a paycheck for sweeping the garage and selling a car last month.

IDK because this is Josh alone -- and not JB or any of the brothers -- and given his history with his sisters; Ashley Madison; and prostitution -- IDK I feel like there could be something more and something more sordid than financial crime. I'm a fed court lawyer not a therapist but those kinds of problems don't just get fixed because your wife makes 3 more babies with you and is more attentive to your needs and you go to a few weeks of Christian counseling here and there.

Or could it be they are seeing if he’ll flip on the others?

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2 minutes ago, cereality said:

Usually yes. Depending on what the charges are sometimes the time can be light -- like a year in prison and then 3-5 years of supervised release with the ankle bracelet (the federal equivalent of probation) which for this family is NBD because they spend all day every day on the compound anyway so more time to pray and make babies.

But it may not be a light sentence IF it's a financial/tax fraud that he's been engaged in over years and years; the lighter sentences are like for a one time embezzlement and you never did it again. If they've been manipulating income/not paying taxes/money laundering for years, that's a different type of charge with a higher sentence because it'll be a larger amount of financial "damage" to the gov't if they haven't paid taxes or to their victims say if they've money laundered.

Though aren't all of their fortunes tied here? If this IS a financial fraud type of thing, you know it was set up by JB because Josh isn't bright enough to do that. But I have a heard time believing it was just set up by JB for Josh ALONE.  All of the brothers and Ben work in the same ridiculous "businesses" like warehouse leasing or towing or the car lot -- they're all drawing income from any such fraud. But I wonder if the difference is that JB and Josh knew it was a fraud whereas Ben and co. were like -- what I got a paycheck for sweeping the garage and selling a car last month.

IDK because this is Josh alone -- and not JB or any of the brothers -- and given his history with his sisters; Ashley Madison; and prostitution -- IDK I feel like there could be something more and something more sordid than financial crime. I'm a fed court lawyer not a therapist but those kinds of problems don't just get fixed because your wife makes 3 more babies with you and is more attentive to your needs and you go to a few weeks of Christian counseling here and there.

I agree, but I do keep in mind that this is Josh alone -- thus far.   He may have been the access point and the weak link regarding financials, which the feds are ready to use to their full advantage at this point.   I could totally see Josh not attending to details and leading authorities to uncover a scheme and the authorities recognizing someone with weaknesses they could exploit to provide information to uncover a larger operation.

If it's not financially based they may have finally reached the end of leads that resulted from a deep dive into his activities and are now ready to close up that portion of things by prosecuting him.   It's likely anything uncovered in a non financially based investigation of his activities would have led them away from the family.

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 I just realized if the show continues it will be called...18 Kids and Counting

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So I haven't followed this show in years -- don't really watch Counting On. Why do people keep referring to the warehouse? Is that the same warehouse were Ben lived when he was courting Jessa? Because as I remember it all that had was a single room upstairs -- like how would a family with 7 kids live there? Were they not living in that house Grandma Mary used to own?

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1 minute ago, cereality said:

So I haven't followed this show in years -- don't really watch Counting On. Why do people keep referring to the warehouse? Is that the same warehouse were Ben lived when he was courting Jessa? Because as I remember it all that had was a single room upstairs -- like how would a family with 7 kids live there? Were they not living in that house Grandma Mary used to own?

 Josh sold his house a while back, without buying another one. With some Internet investigations it’s been theorized that  they have been living in that warehouse. It is mostly based on photographs. It is a reasonable speculation. It is basically a half warehouse half house. I don’t know how many bedrooms it has but there is definitely enough room for Josh’s family.  I think they expanded a little bit after bin moved out. It was basically a guest house, just with no style, class, or windows. 

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This is a far-fetched guess, but could JB have set Josh up for a financial fall in order to get Josh confined with no opportunity for his vices?

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5 minutes ago, cereality said:

Were they not living in that house Grandma Mary used to own?

Jessa and Ben live in that house now.

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Just now, absnow54 said:

Jessa and Ben live in that house now.

I think the poster is referring to the pool house. The one where grandma lived and unfortunately drowned. Jessa and Ben live in the mold house, which grandma used to own.  Different property. 

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1 minute ago, realityfan26 said:

This is a far-fetched guess, but could JB have set Josh up for a financial fall in order to get Josh confined with no opportunity for his vices?

That reflects badly upon JB, his headship, his parenting abilities and his overachievements in piety.   I don't see that as likely.

I could however see JB deciding that he could place Josh in the scapegoat position in order to run some kind of scheme, banking on everyone assuming the prodigal son screwed up and leaving JB in the clear.

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6 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

That reflects badly upon JB, his headship, his parenting abilities and his overachievements in piety.   I don't see that as likely.

I could however see JB deciding that he could place Josh in the scapegoat position in order to run some kind of scheme, banking on everyone assuming the prodigal son screwed up and leaving JB in the clear.

Kind of like "Succession," for any of you who watch that wonderful HBO show.  The dad of that show convinced his prodigal son to take the legal fall for him, but at the last minute the son ratted out his father at a very public press conference.  That would be a shocking Duggar turn if that happened today!!! 

Edited by CouchTater
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3 minutes ago, CouchTater said:

Kind of like "Succession," for any of you who watch that wonderful HBO show.  The dad of that show convinced his prodigal to take the legal fall for him, but at the last minute the son ratted out his father at a very public press conference.  That would be a shocking Duggar turn if that happened today!!! 

If the arrest is for financial shenanigans, then it is very likely the Feds picked up Josh first to get him to talk.

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10 minutes ago, realityfan26 said:

This is a far-fetched guess, but could JB have set Josh up for a financial fall in order to get Josh confined with no opportunity for his vices?

I immediately thought this too, because I was convinced that Homeland Security investigation was about JB's finances. But realistically, the simplest (and least exciting for my conspiracy loving heart) explanation is the mostly like  the right one. This is all Josh.

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3 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

If the arrest is for financial shenanigans, then it is very likely the Feds picked up Josh first to get him to talk.

I agree with this. And if he flips he could escape serious repercussions. But if it's not financial.... bye bye Josh :-) 

Edited by 3girlsforus
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I could however see JB deciding that he could place Josh in the scapegoat position in order to run some kind of scheme, banking on everyone assuming the prodigal son screwed up and leaving JB in the clear.

That doesn't seem far-fetched. Remember when they were playing paintball and JB sacrificed (Siah?) by pushing him out in the open to draw fire. That's great, godly parenting right there.

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Just now, 3girlsforus said:

I agree with this. And if he flips he could escape serious repercussions. 

But then what would be waiting for him on the homefront?

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Hope Josh saves himself by turning on daddy! (If that’s the case)
 

But he is a coward so I doubt that...

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

But then what would be waiting for him on the homefront?

Freedom from Anna and the kids !

Edited by iwantcookies
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27 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

 I just realized if the show continues it will be called...18 Kids and Counting

If this isn't financially based there is no show.

1 minute ago, iwantcookies said:

Hope Josh saves himself by turning on daddy! (If that’s the case)
 

But he is a coward so I doubt that...

Freedom from Anna and the kids !

He would have to provide his own home.   Even without the family to provide for, I don't see Josh stepping into anything that comes near to sustaining even himself alone.

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2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

If this isn't financially based there is no show.

 Was joking. If anything the only show we deserve is Jill and Fenna: Bitching On.

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3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

If this isn't financially based there is no show.

He would have to provide his own home.   Even without the family to provide for, I don't see Josh stepping into anything that comes near to sustaining even himself alone.

What would he be qualified to do? What skills does he have besides making babies and smug faces. 

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1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

But then what would be waiting for him on the homefront?

Better than jail... he might be all about Duggar but when push comes to shove he's not going to jail for someone else. If the feds' bigger fish is a Duggar (JB or others) I don't think he'll flip quickly while he tries to get out of it without having to rat others out but I do think he'd ultimately rat if the other option is years in jail.

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Just now, Annb67 said:

Dang 50 minutes EST. Hurry up! Lol

Oh Jesus, it’s central time! God why has thou forsaken me?

Edited by JoanArc
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Just now, JoanArc said:

Oh Jesus, it’s central time! God why has thou for sake in me?

We live in Arizona, where we don't have DST, so sometimes it's only an hour between us and Central, sometimes it's two hours.

I confess to Googling the time difference today - JUST for this.  

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17 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Michelle's gotta be hysterical right now.

Michelle's gotta be even more drugged up than usual right now.

FIFY.

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3 minutes ago, Crochetlady said:

What would he be qualified to do? What skills does he have besides making babies and smug faces. 

A desperate leghumper might be Willing to support Joshua financially. There are some DESPERATE women out there. 

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Josh Smuggar: The Devil built a fortress in my heart.

Lucifer:

giphy.gif

Lucifer: "I mean, why do they blame me for all their little failings? As if I'd spent my days sitting on their shoulder, forcing them to commit acts they'd otherwise find repulsive. "Oh, the Devil made me do it." I HAVE NEVER MADE ANY ONE OF THEM DO ANYTHING. Never."

Josh now:
giphy.gif

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3 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

Michelle's gotta be even more drugged up than usual right now.

FIFY.

Good old Plexus 🤠

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One of the things I am most curious about is if he has representation today, and if so what kind?    This is not the time and date for JB's cheapness to win out.   They could wise up and upgrade later on, but strategically now is a good time to show up with a bulldog.  It can set the tone for much of what is to come. 

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Anything from Hillary Spivey? She only got to brag about being a Duggar adjacent  for a few months. Haha

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3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

One of the things I am most curious about is if he has representation today, and if so what kind?    This is not the time and date for JB's cheapness to win out.   They could wise up and upgrade later on, but strategically now is a good time to show up with a bulldog.  It can set the tone for much of what is to come. 

I imagine with Josh's history this family keeps a lawyer on speed dial -- someone of the fundie or very religious persuasion that JB knows from his politics days who is a big guy in Arkansas who'll stand up and scream that Josh has been wronged and this is just to malign the Duggars. Plus I read here last night (I think the person got it from Reddit) that the family has known this arrest was coming and Josh has been mentally preparing, so even if they didn't have counsel at the ready at the time of Ashley Madison etc., they likely did this time.

1 minute ago, iwantcookies said:

Anything from Hillary Spivey? She only got to brag about being a Duggar adjacent  for a few months. Haha

I know this is wrong to say but something seems wrong with that woman -- don't you think she's using this to cozy up even more to Justin. Get some more hugs and cuddling in. After all he's upset about his big brother and needs a shoulder to cry on. She seems hot for him and his brother -- I think Jason. May invite him down to Tx too to stay with them because the poor boy needs a reprieve from Arkansas and he can cry on Hil's shoulder too.

Edited by cereality
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4 minutes ago, cereality said:

I imagine with Josh's history this family keeps a lawyer on speed dial -- someone of the fundie or very religious persuasion that JB knows from his politics days who is a big guy in Arkansas who'll stand up and scream that Josh has been wronged and this is just to malign the Duggars. Plus I read here last night (I think the person got it from Reddit) that the family has known this arrest was coming and Josh has been mentally preparing, so even if they didn't have counsel at the ready at the time of Ashley Madison etc., they likely did this time.

Guess that explains the under the influence mug shot.

I'm really intrigued with the idea that an arrest has long been expected -- and happened when JB & M were out of state, yet Josh was not, such as at a recent wedding.   That factoid makes me curious where this is going.     

ETA   I wonder if they understand what they need to base the representation decision on for this case?  Or did they proceed as you suggest, basing the decision on JB's standard M.O, or even more interesting, JB's best interests.      

Edited by Tikichick
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If Josh does time, do Anna and kids have to move in the dorms again? Talk about sins of the father. 

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Oh Dear Hillary is crazy no doubt about that. She might adopt a few of the Duggar boys for herself.

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5 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

One of the things I am most curious about is if he has representation today, and if so what kind?    This is not the time and date for JB's cheapness to win out.   They could wise up and upgrade later on, but strategically now is a good time to show up with a bulldog.  It can set the tone for much of what is to come. 

Personally I am hoping he has:
giphy.gif

And the outcome is:
giphy.gif

I assume their lawyer will be wearing a large cross and an American flag pin in an attempt to show Josh as a godly, righteous man, a loving, proud, upstanding father of 6 soon to be 7 who is a role model to his brood, a loving husband devoted to his wife . . . . you know, all of the things he's not. 

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Just now, SMama said:

If Josh does time, do Anna and kids have to move in the dorms again? Talk about sins of the father. 

Wouldn't moving into TTH be an upgrade? At least they'd have windows.

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Josh had three lawyers for the real estate transaction gone bad. The Travis guy was dismissed by the judge. Not sure who the other two are.

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Count me in as another one who is really curious about the attorney. Are they going to use Travis Story again as their default or someone else? 

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1 minute ago, PrincessPurrsALot said:

I assume their lawyer will be wearing a large cross and an American flag pin in an attempt to show Josh as a godly, righteous man, a loving, proud, upstanding father of 6 soon to be 7 who is a role model to his brood, a loving husband devoted to his wife . . . . you know, all of the things he's not. 

Yep. They’re going to lean HARD on religious persecution and probably have Anna set up a Gofundme to grift from the leghumpers. 

I can only hope this is the final straw for TLC, though…

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Anna better pray she does not wind up homeless living under a bridge 

 

😞😞😞

 

Can her parents put her in a trailer in their back yard??? Housing 8 people is no joke.

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Just now, Zella said:

Count me in as another one who is really curious about the attorney. Are they going to use Travis Story again as their default or someone else? 

Please please please let it be Alan Dershowitz. (I dislike him as well)

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3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Josh had three lawyers for the real estate transaction gone bad. The Travis guy was dismissed by the judge. Not sure who the other two are.

I just checked Arkansas's Court Connect, and for suing the city of Springdale, he had 3 lawyers then too. Story, a Story associate, and then a lawyer out of Conway. Wonder if that's the same dream team for the real estate proceedings. 

Oops. He just had 2. The Conway guy was not his attorney. My bad! 

Edited by Zella
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I am curious if daddy will save Joshua or feed him to the wolves to save himself?! 
 

What are the charges!!!!! 

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Scarlett45

Guidelines for the thread:

Charges have been made public that specifically name possession of Child Sexual Abuse Material, discussion of charges are allowed. However, discussion of victims, or possible victims (and their identities) related to these charges are NOT ALLOWED
We are not here to provide content for ghoulish rubbernecking- there is no need to discuss the graphic details related to these charges, the moderators are not going to police posts for graphic content- posts will be removed and violators will be warned. Do not attempt to circumvent this guideline with spoiler tags.

You MAY discuss the 2015 scandals, and any statement a NOW ADULT victim has made public as previously instructed, but speculation on unnamed victims or minor victims is NOT allowed. 

Jokes, asides, memes etc regarding the sexual assault of anyone, INCLUDING Josh Duggar are not allowed.

As of May 10, 2021: Please respect the privacy of the Reber family, discussion of their social media postings, public statements to the press/court testimony are acceptable. Discussion of their activities on their property, their schedule, where/how they run their errands not acceptable. Again, discussion of social media/court statements/public statements to the press- FINE, "So and So saw the Rebers standing in their yard/grocery shopping/getting gas"- NOT fine. 

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