Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[jschoolgirl]

But then, if you look at who gets the Ivy admittances and the really good jobs, with all the educational advantages they had a fair number of them would have been SOL without their families pulling strings. Josh clearly wasn't qualified for an interview for the job he had, but he probably wasn't the only person he dealt with on the job who was swimming with the sharks because his family pulled strings.

No, of course not. But even with the strings, they still had more education and experience to back up their strings at work. Strings are ultimately not everthing, and the smart people with strings know that. If you don't prove yourself and just ride on coattails, that gets around. Fast.

My dad, who had about an 8th grade education, used to tell me, "It's not what you know, it's who you know!" I told him, "No. It's who you know -- who knows *what you know*."

Ceteris paribus, Josh had the general type of coalition-building job that typically would be filled by someone who had -- at a minimum -- a bachelor's degree; internships in campaigns, PACs, Congress, a state legislature, or the RNC/NRCC/NRSC; then four or five years of work experience with the above sorts of groups. That's how Young Turks are formed.

Josh can't hack that. It isn't even something he could help.

Edited June 2, 2015 by jschoolgirl

[Julia]

No, of course not. But even with the strings, they still had more education and experience to back it up. Strings are ultimately not everthing, and the smart people with strings know that. If you don't prove yourself and just ride on coattails, that gets around. Fast.

My dad, who had about an 8th grade education, used to tell me, "It's not what you know, it's who you know!" I told him, "No. It's who you know -- who knows *what you know*."

Ceteris paribus, Josh had a coalition-building job that typically would be filled by someone who had -- at a minimum -- a bachelor's degree; internships in campaigns, PACs, Congress, a state legislature, or the RNC/NRCC/NRSC; then four or five years of work experience with the above sorts of groups.

 

I agree with you in principle, but I think we've all known people who have high-achieving, or at least affluent, parents and got places although they weren't much themselves. I've known very few of them who I don't think someone less privileged couldn't have bested on a level playing field.

[Churchhoney]

Just read "Josh Duggar's 2012 year in review" on the Pickles and Hairspray facebook page.  Wow, every time Josh opens his mouth, stupid comes out.

Thanks for pointing that out. Hilarious and horrifying at the same time.

[jschoolgirl]

I agree with you in principle, but I think we've all known people who have high-achieving, or at least affluent, parents and got places although they weren't much themselves. I've known very few of them who I don't think someone less privileged couldn't have bested on a level playing field.

Yes, that is true. But people tend to know that about them, and they often after a few years go "back home" -- probably in triumph.

Unlike Our Joshie!

Edited June 2, 2015 by jschoolgirl

[cmr2014]

I find it hard to imagine they didn't at least consider the likelihood this would surface at some point. I've said since I was 15 I already had enough dirt on me that I'd never survive being nominated for office. Plus, the option to have the victim(survivor) ask to have the police report destroyed was always there. They probably had too much hubris to even consider they needed to be proactive.

Where I grew up, it was not even remotely uncommon for young men from "good families" to be kept out of the criminal justice system. These were "good kids" from"good families" and "one mistake shouldn't ruin his future." The usual way that it worked was that the father brought the boy into the police station where he was given a stern talking to by a police officer, the boy expressed contrition and remorse, and that was it. I know this happens in other places, too, because there was a great deal if furor over the coddling of frat boys at my college who often committed pretty serious crimes.

 

I think that Josh felt himself to be an entitled young man from a "good family," and after his talking to from the police officer, he expected that this would go away. You can see that in the comment he made "you'll have to talk to my father about that." I think that he thought that JB had enough grease to make this go completely away.

[Julia]

Where I grew up, it was not even remotely uncommon for young men from "good families" to be kept out of the criminal justice system. These were "good kids" from"good families" and "one mistake shouldn't ruin his future." The usual way that it worked was that the father brought the boy into the police station where he was given a stern talking to by a police officer, the boy expressed contrition and remorse, and that was it.

I have an aunt who is a fervent supporter of zero tolerance because you can't trust "those people" for anything. It's common knowledge in the family that when her youngest was picked up for buying drugs from an undercover police officer in the church parking lot, the local cops in their very expensive neighborhood brought him home instead of booking him.

On the other hand, I know kids my kid went to school with who wouldn't consider going to a police officer if they were in trouble, the way I told my kid to, because they're afraid they'd end up with a record and ineligible for scholarships or the military or maybe dead.

I believe in rules. It's still really hard to explain why they're a good idea while the world works like this.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Julia

[Zung Li]

Where I grew up, it was not even remotely uncommon for young men from "good families" to be kept out of the criminal justice system. These were "good kids" from"good families" and "one mistake shouldn't ruin his future." The usual way that it worked was that the father brought the boy into the police station where he was given a stern talking to by a police officer, the boy expressed contrition and remorse, and that was it. I know this happens in other places, too, because there was a great deal if furor over the coddling of frat boys at my college who often committed pretty serious crimes.

 

I think that Josh felt himself to be an entitled young man from a "good family," and after his talking to from the police officer, he expected that this would go away. You can see that in the comment he made "you'll have to talk to my father about that." I think that he thought that JB had enough grease to make this go completely away.

 

That does make sense because in the 'Alice' comments she does say that DHS has been called about the Duggars more than once (she doesn't say what the calls were regarding) but that nothing was done because JB and friends were powerful in the area (paraphrasing Alice) That makes it seem like the only reason a police report was even made and DHS notified was that someone more important- Oprah-  alerted them.

[KittyS]

We do love it. But if you want to make it and not just make a living, it's not an easy place to do so. (And it's not the only place to struggle to make a name for yourself by any means.). And there are thousands of people who just make DC run. Their lives are rather ordinary. They could live anywhere, and just happened to be in DC. But others (and I think Josh is like this) are in DC because we are political junkies are need a fix, and are driven maniacs! :)

D.C. Is indeed full of driven maniacs, but "driven" will never be a word I associate with Josh Duggar. This is a man who could barely be bothered to roll out of bed to manage his own used car lot in between fast food runs.

Edited June 2, 2015 by KittyS

[becca3891]

Ok, but if we are going to say that Jim Bob and Michelle are abusive, are we pretty much prepared to say that nearly all Amish, and quite a few Orthodox Jewish families (to pull two fairly well respected fundamentalist groups out of a hat) are also abusive? Both deny a robust education to their children. The discipline methods of the Pearl book were based significantly on Amish methods. Both groups often have families so large individual children do not get the attention they need....

I think it's one thing to say this is not an ideal environment in which we would choose to raise a child. But if we cite the Duggars for abuse, we open a BIG can of worms.

If the question is, does beating your children with a rod qualify as abuse, then my answer is yes, regardless of culture or religion. I understand we don't have an official statement from Jim Bob and Michelle regarding corporal punishment, but I see no reason why their child would lie about it, especially considering they endorse the Pearls. I grew up fundy myself and was paddled with a board (horrible memories), and I realize many, many people today still think physical punishment is fine. But in my opinion, if what you are doing to a child would get you arrested for assault if you did it to an adult, then it is wrong and abuse.

 

Whether having 19 children and turning the older ones into foster mothers and housekeepers is abuse is far less clear, of course. But I think it's safe to say it's unfair.

[GEML]

I think Josh was driven in DC. But I think the realization was just beginning to dawn on him what it was going to require. To be honest, I was actually enjoying watching Josh and Anna have some glimmers of self-realization that what their parents taught them about the world wasn't all true and they were going to have to figure it out for themselves. That process was beginning for them just as this was happening.

But now everything Jim Bob warned Josh about has come to pass - the evil outside world that wants to destroy us for being God's Warriors might win. And Washington is filled with nothing but sell outs who look out only with their own interests.

That Josh is responsible for this will eventually be forgotten if he wants it to be and he will become a warped, frustrated old man.

[MrsChappy]

I bet the Duggars are thankful for Caitlyn Jenner right about now.....

[bencr]

I agree with you in principle, but I think we've all known people who have high-achieving, or at least affluent, parents and got places although they weren't much themselves. I've known very few of them who I don't think someone less privileged couldn't have bested on a level playing field.

 

This is so true, and it is supported by government statistics that show that people who are born in the top quintile of families income-wise almost invariably stay in the top quintile as adults, while people born in the bottom quintile tend to stay there as well. This lack of opportunity when it comes to income mobility is a large part of what feeds into the income inequality in this country.

 

It's not that wealthy kids are inherently smarter, but they tend to get better educations and receive more opportunities and "second chances" than poor kids.

Edited June 2, 2015 by bencr

[starfire]

Celia Rubenstein, on 01 Jun 2015 - 1:46 PM, said:

I wonder if TLC had already canceled the show, would Jim Bob and Michelle even be bothering with this interview?  

 

I think if TLC has already decided to cancel the show, the only reason the Duggars might do the interview is if TLC would allow them to announce during the interview that they have decided to stop filming the show, to focus on healing, prayer, yada yada, to make them look like they actually care more about their family than being reality stars...and that it was their decision.  Of course they would only do this if TLC told them they were canceling the show, Michelle and JimBob would never decide on their own to put their kids above the show.

Edited June 2, 2015 by starfire

[Bella]

Good morning!

 

This is the Josh and Anna thread. We have a Megyn Kelly thread now, and we still have the Media thread, the Jim Bob and Michelle thread, etc. Please try to be aware of what you're posting where.

 

Thanks!

[Ljohnson1987]

Happy 2nd birthday Marcus. Hope the scandal doesn't ruin your special day.

[GEML]

Coalition building today in politics is increasingly micro trending. We have already sliced and diced groups into such categories that each party is so targeted. (You might be pretty angry to know just how targeted the parties can be.).

Now each party is looking for micro-voters who may or may not be voting. And now that. Citizen United has lifted the cap, every special interest out there now has a political wing that is trying to find these voters. You offer a candidate a few thousand voters who are new to the party and that's GOLD.

There are similar people like Josh on the Dem side. You don't, for instance, send and Ivy League educated trained in DC person to working class NH to sign up voters who were helping organize a union. (My husband was told point blank by one union he was "over educated" and he'd worked for the AFL-CIO!) Micro targeting is the current trend, and Josh was part of that trend. Even if he was able to come through this, there might be another trend in 5-10 years. And if he's not built up a real resume by then, there isn't, to my knowledge, another easy way for him to break back into DC.

And of course, with this, he's toast. He's useful, but so there are twenty other people like him ready to take his place.

[msblossom]

That Josh is responsible for this will eventually be forgotten if he wants it to be and he will become a warped, frustrated old man.

Ah, that's right out of It's a Wonderful Life. Jimmy Stewart/George Bailey said that to describe Mr. Potter.

edited for punctuation.

Edited June 2, 2015 by msblossom

[Cherrio]

On the shower issue - we are assuming he was permitted shower privacy.

For G-d's sake, these kids can't even take a shower alone? Is there a friggin timer on the boy's bathroom door if they are in there more than 2 minutes and an alarm goes off?     I can hear the sirens and loudspeaker....sinner in the bathroom !     Who has the Masturbation prevention jurisdiction?

                    Wow

[barbedwire]

I bet the Duggars are thankful for Caitlyn Jenner right about now.....

My guess is that none of them are watching the news.

 

Do you think they will name their new baby "Megyn" (with that special spelling) if the interview goes well?

 

And another "Happy birthday" to Marcus.

[AnJen]

 

 

 

On the shower issue - we are assuming he was permitted shower privacy.

For G-d's sake, these kids can't even take a shower alone? Is there a friggin timer on the boy's bathroom door if they are in there more than 2 minutes and an alarm goes off?     I can hear the sirens and loudspeaker....sinner in the bathroom !     Who has the Masturbation prevention jurisdiction?

                    Wow

 

I could be interpreting it wrong, but having observed them, and from the comment that was made (I wish I could remember the special in which this was mentioned; I've watched relatively few of the actual episodes of the show, so it must've been one of the specials, and I feel like it was a small Howler who said it) about the importance of locking the bathroom door for privacy, I would assume that they shower alone. I mean, they can't even full-hug their own siblings or parents, it's side-hugs all around even for family, so I just can't picture a scenario where they would allow their children to see one another in any state of undress. 

 

I'm sure with 14+ kids they had a time limit on showers, but it's not like 14 year old boys have much in the way of stamina in that area...I feel like it could feasibly be accomplished, even if all they had was a 5-10 minute shower allowance. 

 

But I'm a girl who grew up with all girls, so men or people who grew up with men, feel free to chime in on that?

[jschoolgirl]

Micro targeting is the current trend, and Josh was part of that trend. Even if he was able to come through this, there might be another trend in 5-10 years. And if he's not built up a real resume by then, there isn't, to my knowledge, another easy way for him to break back into DC.

 

Exactly. That was pretty much what I was getting at. There are IBLP/ATI/homefooled people here; they just don't have the name recognition. And they don't trumpet it!

[Skittl1321]

I don't think they have ever mentioned what the rules for showering were, but these are the people who have multiple toilets in one room (with no seperate stalls)

[barbedwire]

I don't think they have ever mentioned what the rules for showering were, but these are the people who have multiple toilets in one room (with no seperate stalls)

Ewww.  I never noticed that.  Is that how the howlers/little girls got potty trained?  They had to go to the bathroom with their "mommy sister" and watch what they did?

[Satchels of gold]

I don't think they have ever mentioned what the rules for showering were, but these are the people who have multiple toilets in one room (with no seperate stalls)

Noooooooooooooo!?!?

[irisheyes]

Really, the fact that FRC would hire Josh - a young, sheltered guy with only a GED - for such a position says more about the FRC than it does Josh.

(Even the low-end suggestions of what Josh may have been making at the FRC are nearly twice as much as I make. I'm a few years older than Josh, graduated from a top tier university, and have a master's degree. So I understand the utter disdain for Josh getting that job & earning what he did.)

I think the FRC wanted Josh because he gave them a young face of the Religious Right. Any demographic study you read shows that the majority of young people are more liberal than their parents, so the FRC hoped that Josh, who was in his 20's with a young, photogenic family, could be their 21st century face to speak to younger voters, especially through social media. Doubt it would have worked, but it REALLY blew up in their faces.

I wonder if Anna is freaking out about how they'll feed all these mouths over the next months and years. I hope JB and Michelle don't mind supporting their precious Joshy boy for a good, long time.

[yogi2014L]

I could be interpreting it wrong, but having observed them, and from the comment that was made (I wish I could remember the special in which this was mentioned; I've watched relatively few of the actual episodes of the show, so it must've been one of the specials, and I feel like it was a small Howler who said it) about the importance of locking the bathroom door for privacy, I would assume that they shower alone. I mean, they can't even full-hug their own siblings or parents, it's side-hugs all around even for family, so I just can't picture a scenario where they would allow their children to see one another in any state of undress. 

 

I'm sure with 14+ kids they had a time limit on showers, but it's not like 14 year old boys have much in the way of stamina in that area...I feel like it could feasibly be accomplished, even if all they had was a 5-10 minute shower allowance. 

 

But I'm a girl who grew up with all girls, so men or people who grew up with men, feel free to chime in on that?

As a female who grew up with two brothers and we all shared the same bathroom, I could not tell you whether they took longer showers than normal or how long it took them to masturbate and I am glad I don't know! LOL!

 

I'll tell you one thing- male or female in the Duggar house- if they were allowed to lock the door I bet half of them took longer than necessary not to masturbate but  just to get the hell away from everyone 

Edited June 3, 2015 by yogi2014L

[What In The]

I don't think they have ever mentioned what the rules for showering were, but these are the people who have multiple toilets in one room (with no seperate stalls)

And to this I say....yuck! Two toilets equals no privacy and more to clean!

[Fuzzysox]

Why isn't Josh being hired by Hobby Lobby? I thought they like super religious people working there!?

[OhioMom]

I don't think they have ever mentioned what the rules for showering were, but these are the people who have multiple toilets in one room (with no seperate stalls)

What??

They have multiple toilets in one room???  You're not talking about potty chairs lined up, I take it. 

How did I miss this?

[GEML]

I have to imagine showers were timed. Especially for the oldest boys in the smallest house. If you've raised a teenage boy, it's not rocket science. I just can't imagine the Duggars being tolerant about this. (And believe me, I wish I could.)

[truthtalk2014]

I think the FRC wanted Josh because he gave them a young face of the Religious Right. Any demographic study you read shows that the majority of young people are more liberal than their parents, so the FRC hoped that Josh, who was in his 20's with a young, photogenic family, could be their 21st century face to speak to younger voters, especially through social media. Doubt it would have worked, but it REALLY blew up in their faces.

Well too bad for them.  Josh looks 20 years older than his actual age.  

[Churchhoney]

And to this I say....yuck! Two toilets equals no privacy and more to clean!

 

I'm not so sure that this is as strange as it may seem. I would think that they wanted to put in a little kids' toilet, but didn't need to have a whole separate bathroom for it. So they just stuck in one of the other bathrooms. I don't think it means that they're inviting two people to use neighboring toilets simultaneously, just that this is the bathroom that little kids use, because it's got the facility that's suitable for them. But if a little kid isnt' in there, bigger people can use it, too. Why waste a whole bathroom just for a little kids' toilet? .... I'm with the Duggars on this one.

[OSM Mom]

What??

They have multiple toilets in one room??? You're not talking about potty chairs lined up, I take it.

How did I miss this?

No. Two actual toilets side by side. I remember seeing pictures. I can't remember whether it was in the boys bathroom or the girls. I'm sure someone here will be able to be more specific.

[zenme]

I'm not so sure that this is as strange as it may seem. I would think that they wanted to put in a little kids' toilet, but didn't need to have a whole separate bathroom for it. So they just stuck in one of the other bathrooms. I don't think it means that they're inviting two people to use neighboring toilets simultaneously, just that this is the bathroom that little kids use, because it's got the facility that's suitable for them. But if a little kid isnt' in there, bigger people can use it, too. Why waste a whole bathroom just for a little kids' toilet? .... I'm with the Duggars on this one.

 

Ok. The big potty, little potty scenario seems to make more sense to me.

[Cherrio]

I have to imagine showers were timed. Especially for the oldest boys in the smallest house. If you've raised a teenage boy, it's not rocket science. I just can't imagine the Duggars being tolerant about this. (And believe me, I wish I could.)

I would never ever ever ever think about what my son was doing in the bathroom.  That's sick.

[Churchhoney]

I would never ever ever ever think about what my son was doing in the bathroom.  That's sick.

 

Indeed. And you probably wouldn't fantasize about your daughter calling you from her bed on her wedding night to announce that she might have been impregnated either. Whereas I'm pretty sure JimBob has. They are way way way too intrusive with their kids. Sexually and in every other way.

 

Which is ironic, because they aren't actually very involved with the kids, certainly haven't taken close care of them in some important ways and generally don't seem to know them much at all.

 

It's all pretty sick, really.

[DangerousMinds]

For G-d's sake, these kids can't even take a shower alone? Is there a friggin timer on the boy's bathroom door if they are in there more than 2 minutes and an alarm goes off?     I can hear the sirens and loudspeaker....sinner in the bathroom !     Who has the Masturbation prevention jurisdiction?

                    Wow

No way of preventing those darn nocturnal emissions, though (AFAIK). Those poor boys must feel so much unnecessary guilt and shame.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Hey Josh,

Be a man and defend yourself. Tell us your story. Speak for yourself as the adult you are. Do your own interview.

I triple-dog dare you to do an interview with MSNBC - preferably with Rachel Maddow. Surely you're strong enough in your faith and redemption to give your own interview. And since you were "man" enough to work for an organization that works to keep LGBT people as second-class citizens & the fight the liberal agenda, you're surely "man" enough to do an interview with the liberal media and go face-to-face with a LGBT person/ally.

Edited June 3, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Missy Vixen]

I wonder if Anna is freaking out about how they'll feed all these mouths over the next months and years. I hope JB and Michelle don't mind supporting their precious Joshy boy for a good, long time.

IMHO of course, but I am still wondering if Smuggar is going to get paid behind the scenes as a "consultant". As GEML has already stated, his specialized knowledge of Gothard/ATI/fundies is a solid gold voting bloc to the GOP. They're going to have a rough time finding a replacement, unless they hire someone from the Bates family. I don't think David Waller can quite bring in the demographic they're looking for.

[SoSueMe]

No way of preventing those darn nocturnal emissions, though (AFAIK). Those poor boys must feel so much unnecessary guilt and shame.

Oh geeez, I think I read on this board that the kids don't always have full linens on their beds????

[Bella]

Hello.

This is the Josh and Anna thread.

There are other threads for the other topics you're discussing here. For example, you might discuss the parents' failure to design normal bathrooms in the JimBob and Michelle thread. You could contemplate the logistics of Duggar child masturbation in the Other Duggars thread.

But this is the Josh and Anna thread. For discussing Josh and Anna.

Thanks!

[EarlGreyTea]

The story is really dying down. So, so stupid of the Duggars to do an interview now that it's no longer front page news. The whole story has been eclipsed by Dennis Hastert and Kaitlyn Jenner. Joshie will be front page headlines once again.

 

Just read "Josh Duggar's 2012 year in review" on the Pickles and Hairspray facebook page.  Wow, every time Josh opens his mouth, stupid comes out.

 

His coverage of the 2012 election cycle was particularly illuminating. He fancied himself such an expert on political matters. Whoever upthread called him a bloated bloviator had it right.  You could tell he loved it, though. On the plus side, no more photos of him stuffing his face with Chik-Fil-A while proclaiming his love for free speech.

Edited June 3, 2015 by EarlGreyTea

[irisheyes]

IMHO of course, but I am still wondering if Smuggar is going to get paid behind the scenes as a "consultant". As GEML has already stated, his specialized knowledge of Gothard/ATI/fundies is a solid gold voting bloc to the GOP. They're going to have a rough time finding a replacement, unless they hire someone from the Bates family. I don't think David Waller can quite bring in the demographic they're looking for.

Didn't Alyssa Bates marry a guy whose dad is a Congressman? I think the "young, photogenic fundie" pool is deeper than just Josh, especially since families other than the Duggars are out there on TV now. Sure, JB and Michelle were the first, but they've spawned a whole subset of reality stars, especially with lots of them getting active on social media. Josh may find his career options drying up. Most Fundies are "severly" conservative, but few of them have incest in their background. (I hope.)

[Lillybee]

I went out of my way to watch Nancy Grace. I thought that she was all about the children but she keep on referring Josh as being charismatic. "barf"

[GEML]

There are several people who could take Josh's place. The question will be if Alyssa is willing to have multiple babies. It will be important that the family walk the walk.

[GEML]

David Waller isn't political enough. I mean something specific there. The show helped Josh (and ironically, probably the molestation charges too) to develop a public Josh and a private Josh. Waller doesn't know how to self-screen. Like the pecan story.

People get angry at politicians for being "two faced" but it's a survival mechanism. We demand that politicians be friendly and outgoing and optimistic the kind of person we'd "have a beer with" (or a Coke, in Josh's case) but no one is that person in real life. And when they act human (and no, molesting your sisters is not in this category - I'm talking about snapping at someone) we get into a frenzy and go, "Oh my! Do they have the right temperament to help run the country????"

But it doesn't have to be a Gothard person. It could be any number of subgroups. It just has to be someone who understands how these groups work. I'm betting some eager beaver at Patrick Henry or Regent University has suddenly realized that pretending that he doesn't come that world may not be in his best interest.

[kaleidoscope]

TMZ is reporting this as their top story this morning.  They say that Josh molested his SISTERS and that "Josh Duggar's parents knew he repeatedly molested his five-year-old sister":(

 

REPEATLEDLY......I feel even more ill..............

 

http://www.tmz.com/2015/06/03/jim-bob-michelle-duggar-josh-molestation-cover-up/

Edited June 3, 2015 by kaleidoscope

[CherryAmes]

That article muddies the water as well as clears it if you know what I mean.  They repeatedly say Josh "confessed" but never say that anyone of the victims actually went to the parents about the molestation.  It paints him as a bigger monster in one sense but also makes it appear he was crying out for help -- which is not what I had gathered happened up to now. 

[Janet Snakehole]

I went out of my way to watch Nancy Grace. I thought that she was all about the children but she keep on referring Josh as being charismatic. "barf"

This is such a weird thing to say. Even if NG were looking to defend him, "charismatic" is the last word I would use to describe any of the dull Duggars, especially creepy blah lumpy Josh. I have never seen much personality from him.

[JoanArc]

 

REPEATLEDLY......I feel even more ill..............

Yeah, I've doubted it was just one time for each victim. I'm sure they were coached to downplay it all to the police. Even back then, there was a script. We'll never know what was really true. Nor do I really want too. Jim Bob and Michelle knew they had a monster, and did nothing.

Very, very sad.

Edited June 3, 2015 by JoanArc