Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[bluebonnet]

Eh, I don't know. I'm not sure the FRC would pay severance in this situation. If he had driven drunk or screwed an intern I could see them offering the "leave quietly and we'll make it worth your while" deal, but he allegedly committed multiple counts of child sexual abuse. That's a henious crime that nobody outside the extreme fundie circles is going to forgive. I doubt your rank and file FRC donor would approve of their money continuing to pay his salary for the next several months. He had to go regardless of severance pay, and if he has two brain cells to rub together he knew that.

I also wonder how feasible it is for Jim Bob to set him up in a new business given all this bad publicity. It's not like the good people of Arkansas have a shortage of places that will sell them a used car or trim their trees.

I think Josh absolutely would have negotiated a severance package with the FRC, and it definitely would be kept private.  Everyone associated with the FRC would want their connection with Josh to be severed as quickly and 'quietly' as possible.  Meaning, they don't want him to wait around to be fired for a violation of some moral misconduct code.  The FRC is a hate organization.  They have to be able to spin this a certain way if they want to continue remaining valid in the bigot circles.  Providing a severance is a teeny tiny price to pay to have it spun the way that works best for them. I mean, just look at the way the FRC responded to Josh's resignation.  They aren't at all condemning what Josh did, even though their entire mission revolves around labeling the LGBT community as dangerous perverts.  

 

Besides, the average FRC donor is the sort who is going around saying that Josh is forgiven because Jesus Christ requires no personal responsibility.  These aren't the sort of people bothered by what Josh did because PRAYER! and GOD! and JESUS!

[Lillybee]

I think that we all suspected that the Duggars beat their children and some of us felt vindicated with the reference to being hit with a rod.

I know that I am surprised that the reality of that came out in that police report. Since Joyanna is the only one who is now a minor, I think that she was the one forced to have that report destroyed. Ma and Pa Duggar, I hope that you realize that the internet is forever and that the report is still out there.

[mynextmistake]

I think Josh absolutely would have negotiated a severance package with the FRC, and it definitely would be kept private.  Everyone associated with the FRC would want their connection with Josh to be severed as quickly and 'quietly' as possible.  Meaning, they don't want him to wait around to be fired for a violation of some moral misconduct code.  The FRC is a hate organization.  They have to be able to spin this a certain way if they want to continue remaining valid in the bigot circles.  Providing a severance is a teeny tiny price to pay to have it spun the way that works best for them. I mean, just look at the way the FRC responded to Josh's resignation.  They aren't at all condemning what Josh did, even though their entire mission revolves around labeling the LGBT community as dangerous perverts.  

 

Besides, the average FRC donor is the sort who is going around saying that Josh is forgiven because Jesus Christ requires no personal responsibility.  These aren't the sort of people bothered by what Josh did because PRAYER! and GOD! and JESUS!

You might be right. I don't think the FRC needed to care about keeping this quiet, though. In fact, it might have been better for them if they had fired Josh and unequivocally stated that it was because of the abuse allegations. What is he going to do, sue them for wrongful termination? I doubt it. Honestly, negotiating severance only works if you have a position from which to negotiate. Josh didn't.

I'm no expert on the FRC, thank God, but I don't think their *average* donor is a Josh apologist. Some probably are, and those that are could be expected to be vocal, but in my experience even extreme Christian conservatives abhor sexual abuse of minors. Just because someone is hateful about gays or abortion doesn't mean they think it's okay to molest kids.

[Wellfleet]

I think the girls, especially the ones in the house, suffer the most from this being made public. Rampant speculation will follow them forever. Their entire world changed this week, and not in a positive way, at least at this point.

 

Maybe, but I think if one of the girls did take this very drastic and serious step in order to gain her freedom and maybe even freedom for other siblings as well, she would also have the fortitude and strength to overcome a lot of other challenges as well.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Wellfleet

[becca3891]

Another heartbreaking fact I just noticed from one of the interviews: one of them, and for some reason I suspect it was Jana, was said to have begun crying at the start of the interview, and also said that she still didn't trust Josh.

 

I know some are saying Anna should leave Josh, but she won't. If they're telling the truth, she already knew. I just can't imagine being her and always having to wonder if everything was above board when he changed Mack's diaper.

[bluebonnet]

You might be right. I don't think the FRC needed to care about keeping this quiet, though. In fact, it might have been better for them if they had fired Josh and unequivocally stated that it was because of the abuse allegations. What is he going to do, sue them for wrongful termination? I doubt it. Honestly, negotiating severance only works if you have a position from which to negotiate. Josh didn't.

I'm no expert on the FRC, thank God, but I don't think their *average* donor is a Josh apologist. Some probably are, and those that are could be expected to be vocal, but in my experience even extreme Christian conservatives abhor sexual abuse of minors. Just because someone is hateful about gays or abortion doesn't mean they think it's okay to molest kids.

Josh would definitely have a position from which to negotiate.  The election season is picking up speed, a dozen different hate bills the FRC supports are being campaigned.  Josh Duggar has been a mouthpiece for so much of this.  He has this huge twitter following and is constantly posting photos of himself with this or that very important right wing politician.  The best thing for everyone in the FRC and those circling the FRC is to have Josh get as far away as possible and as quickly as possible.  That slows down questions about the FRC in this matter so that there is only very limited focus on them and all those people in the spotlight who are big friends of the FRC.  

 

If Josh's boss comes to him and says "hey, you need to quit" and Josh says, "Hmm, maybe not", there's an opening for negotiation.  So then Josh's boss says, "if you resign right now, you have X severance package."  Josh can continue to negotiate, or he can accept and move on.  To be honest, chances are the severance package was probably already included in his contract and the only negotiation was how his departure would be defined, because often these sort of contracts become null and void for vague morality clauses.  I would think this is another reason why the statements released to the press are so vague and are calling these things "mistakes" rather than what it really was.  

Edited May 22, 2015 by bluebonnet

[NikSac]

Are we all assuming that the incidents that were reported were the only ones that ever happened?

 

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but personally, no I don't think so. It sounded like things were escalating - from touching them in their sleep to putting his hands up a girl''s dress in the laundry room, or taking off one girl's pants when she pulled up her dress because it had a hole in it (which seems odd to me, but anyway, that's reportedly what happened).  I have a very hard time buying that he went so many months between these incidents, or that he didn't do more, especially in their sleep so they theoretically wouldn't remember. I think the ones in the report are probably the ones where he got caught, or the ones where he was so overcome with guilt that he fessed up.

 

I really, really hope no other kids are involved with anything like this. I don't get quite the same creepy vibe from the rest of them, so I am hoping not. Jim Bob on the other hand... let's just say it wouldn't shock me. Those poor kids. They can only side-hug but then they've got their brother fondling them?

[elainebenis]

Parody of FRC's "Stand for Marriage":

 

http://www.pointlessplanet.com/2015/05/frc-stand-for-marriage.html#.VV7TqjjbKM9

[HeyNow]

I loathe the whole "no one's perfect"......I get it.  But I do require common decency.

[farmgal4]

Another heartbreaking fact I just noticed from one of the interviews: one of them, and for some reason I suspect it was Jana, was said to have begun crying at the start of the interview, and also said that she still didn't trust Josh.

 

I know some are saying Anna should leave Josh, but she won't. If they're telling the truth, she already knew. I just can't imagine being her and always having to wonder if everything was above board when he changed Mack's diaper.

No, Anna won't leave him, but I don't know how she can stand to ever have sex with him again, knowing full well that he might be fantasizing about his sisters while they're doing it.

[farmgal4]

Ben/Jessa Seewald are thinking...Damn, Ben's gotta get a j-o-b now that the TV money is about to dry up.

Windshields anyone?

That's what they ALL may be thinking. I honestly don't know if any of these kids are educated enough to work at McDonalds. Edited May 22, 2015 by farmgal4

[Wellfleet]

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but personally, no I don't think so. It sounded like things were escalating - from touching them in their sleep to putting his hands up a girl''s dress in the laundry room, or taking off one girl's pants when she pulled up her dress because it had a hole in it (which seems odd to me, but anyway, that's reportedly what happened).  I have a very hard time buying that he went so many months between these incidents, or that he didn't do more, especially in their sleep so they theoretically wouldn't remember. I think the ones in the report are probably the ones where he got caught, or the ones where he was so overcome with guilt that he fessed up.

 

I really, really hope no other kids are involved with anything like this. I don't get quite the same creepy vibe from the rest of them, so I am hoping not. Jim Bob on the other hand... let's just say it wouldn't shock me. Those poor kids. They can only side-hug but then they've got their brother fondling them?

 

No, I wouldn't have any trouble believing Boob had been involved either. And that is purely because of his frequently-inappropriate comments/behavior. Before yesterday's news I would have thought of Boob first if anyone had mentioned the possibility of abuse in their household.

[MissMally]

Maybe, but I think if one of the girls did take this very drastic and serious step in order to gain her freedom and maybe even freedom for other siblings as well, she would also have the fortitude and strength to overcome a lot of other challenges as well.

It's quite possible. This was posted earlier in the thread (and I cross posted it to the Jana thread but things are moving fast).

http://bitterjealousfatties.yuku.com/topic/964/Josh-Duggar-Molested-Sisters#.VV5xb1IsrJ0

It seems like a poster in that thread went looking for the records but came up short.

I have no idea if these things are public record or not in Arkansas. When I had to access police records about 5 years ago for non-legal reasons I had to go through an advanced criminal background check and sign more confidentiality forms than Donald Duck has nephews. I also had to provide why I needed access to those records, what they'd be used for, the works. These sorts of things aren't public record where I lived. And there would've been hell to pay if I had leaked any personal details at all. We were given photocopies of the police reports but the police were breathing down our necks the entire time. You bet your ass those things were secured to the nth degree. And those police records weren't of a sensitive nature like this one!

However if it concerned me, I could access the report with proof of ID, etc. I just couldn't request someone else's record without jumping through a whole bunch of red tape.

If this wasn't public record and a journalist went to all that trouble and didn't get caught? Heads are going to roll at that police station.

This is why I suspect it was one of the j'slaves or JD/Joe (whichever one was interviewed) that obtained the report and leaked it.

I could be completely wrong and Joe Blow can walk in and request it. But why now? If it could be so easily accessed (as said in that thread), how did it take this long? That thread was posted in 2007.

[andromeda331]

I am really surprised and shocked. I had heard the rumor for years but assumed it was something along the lines of Josh kissing a girl or something. And now feel horrible every time it was debunked. Those poor girls. So not only did they have to give up their childhood to raise their siblings they were abused too.

[becca3891]

It's quite possible. This was posted earlier in the thread (and I cross posted it to the Jana thread but things are moving fast).

http://bitterjealous...rs#.VV5xb1IsrJ0

Wow. The person on that forum in 2007 was a real insider who knew. I wonder why he/she didn't take it any further. Without the police records, of course it wasn't provable, and that raises the question now being discussed -- how were they obtained, and by whom? I just can't see any of the Duggar girls being brave enough to do it. I feel like Boob would raise almighty hell, "We settled this with God years ago, how dare you tarnish the family name with it now?" type of ravings. But now this gives me hope that the Jana escaping rumors are true too. Wouldn't it be great if this was her final hurrah, a big F you to the family? Because that does make sense, that the records might only have been accessible to those directly involved. For that matter, it could have been Amy, as she's rumored to have been the fifth victim.

Edited May 22, 2015 by becca3891

[mbutterfly]

Josh molested EVERY female relative in that house that wasn't his mother, at the time (right? I looked at brithdates). If that doesn't get the show canceled, I will lose all faith in humanity.

 

It doesn't really matter WTF TLC wants to do, when sponsors drop left and right, which they will if the show stays, it's game over. There will definitely be sponsor boycotts if this travesty goes on.

And sponsors darn well better drop them at least until there is an investigation. But who are the sponsors/ 

[NoThyme]

When Steven Collin's abuse came to light all episodes of Seventh Heaven were pulled from syndication. The same for Bill Cosby. The same thing should happen to this show. Were they filming the show when this broke? Did TLC know about it? If so they should lose their broadcast license. Josh will be ostracized by everyone. Feel a bit sorry for everyone involved except the parents, they are total jerks.

[bluebonnet]

And sponsors darn well better drop them at least until there is an investigation. But who are the sponsors/ 

I've found this on another forum

Product placements and advertisers

[sleekandchic]

Re who may have leaked the info:

Am I understanding that Josh, a guy with no formal education and little work experience, was named Executive Director of Family Research Councill? Was his salary made public? What were his legitimate qualifications for the job?

I'm thinking a disgruntled coworker or two might be behind the leak? Especially if Duggar's salary was significantly higher than other staff members, or if his qualifications are a joke, or if he leapfrogged over staffers who sought that position, coworker-resentments might have run deep. Or, he might be an insufferable blowhard who doesn't get along well with other staffers.

Obviously, the info was out there, and people who are involved with political action are expert at digging up bodies.

Edited May 22, 2015 by sleekandchic

[CofCinci]

Anna won't leave Josh, but I can see her never leaving her daughter(s) alone with him. She will spend the next 18+ internally questioning all his movements with the children. He was alone with her in the kitchen, did something happen? Did he just walk in on her in the shower? Poor Anna will be exhausted from the hypervigilance.

Honestly, I think TLC might be the leak. After Honey Boo Boo, they most likely hired an investigation firm to delve deep into the backgrounds of all their contractees. 19KAC was enjoying a ratings spike and I'm sure Jim Bob asked for more money. Even though InTouch is considered a tabloid, they have back room partnerships with networks and studios. TLC said bye Felicia to JB.

Edited May 22, 2015 by CofCinci

[Readalot]

The rain woke me up at 2:30 am. It's now an hour later and I can't get this nightmare out of my head. I can not imagine living it everyday and on TV! I'm so angry I hate JB and M for the unnecessary trauma they have put their kids through. It's really is UNCOMPREHENDIBLE! M is a coward to use medication to escape this. How about her kids. How do they escape? Reminds me of the family in Utah, they sang and I think played the violin. It later came out the dad molested all the girls.

[becca3891]

 

Anna won't leave Josh, but I can see her never leaving her daughter(s) alone with him. She will spend the next 18+ internally questioning all his movements with the children. He was alone with her in the kitchen, did something happen? Did he just walk in on her in the shower? Poor Anna will be exhausted from the hypervigilance.

This is not news to Anna. Her public statement today -- link below -- said that she has known all about this, since two years before their marriage. So I have no sympathy for her at all, considering she went into the marriage with open eyes. I can only hope that it's true that it has not happened in many years now.

http://www.people.com/article/josh-duggar-molestation-accusations-duggars-respond

[MissMally]

Wow. The person on that forum in 2007 was a real insider who knew. I wonder why he/she didn't take it any further. Without the police records, of course it wasn't provable, and that raises the question now being discussed -- how were they obtained, and by whom? I just can't see any of the Duggar girls being brave enough to do it. I feel like Boob would raise almighty hell, "We settled this with God years ago, how dare you tarnish the family name with it now?" type of ravings. But now this gives me hope that the Jana escaping rumors are true too. Wouldn't it be great if this was her final hurrah, a big F you to the family? Because that does make sense, that the records might only have been accessible to those directly involved. For that matter, it could have been Amy, as she's rumored to have been the fifth victim.

Apparently it's been an open secret for quite a while. I've been discussing with a few people and you see those things online randomly from people who claim to have been in ATI but you just think it was exaggerated. Looking back you'd see stories pop up once in a while about Josh fondling his sister while she slept from supposed ATI insiders but it being the Internet and all, you don't know what's true. Additionally if I recall correctly Razing Ruth helped the sin in the camp rumor gain traction on TWoP (although I don't think she was the one that brought it over) but her version was vague. Then RR turned out to be a fraud.

I have a very hard time believing the records were just given out to anyone unless some very unethical (and probably illegal) things occurred in order to get those records. I think it's more plausible someone who was initially interviewed obtained them as per their legal right. Mind you TMZ gets a lot of their stories through unethical and illegal means. :-/

[CofCinci]

I have a very hard time believing the records were just given out to anyone unless some very unethical (and probably illegal) things occurred in order to get those records. I think it's more plausible someone who was initially interviewed obtained them as per their legal right. Mind you TMZ gets a lot of their stories through unethical and illegal means. :-/

The records were obtained legally through FOIA request. I'm sure the media entered more requests from other agencies yesterday. Perhaps more details to come.

Guess we now understand why Jessa did the wedding kiss in private. Who wants to kiss your husband for the first time in front of your molestor?

Edited May 22, 2015 by CofCinci

[NikSac]

[nevermind - already covered by others]

Edited May 22, 2015 by NikSac

[Emme]

I'm still way back in the comments here. Trying to process this horrific situation.

If this first came to light in 2001 (according to reports), Boob and MEchelle not only neglected to get their kids the help they needed, but went on to make SIX more blessings/victims. Justin, Jackson, then the four lost girls - Johanna, Jennifer, Jordyn and Josie (not to mention Jubilee, had she not been miscarried).

They are horrible, horrible parents. Instead of focusing on the fallout that the molestation created, and getting help for ALL of their kids (Josh included, as he too is a victim of his environment), they blithely continue on their "blessing quest." All the more disturbing because those poor girls surely knew that touching/sex/babies/pregnancy we're all somehow related or connected. So, MEchelle continuing to get knocked up as they were trying to deal with getting on with their lives was probably beyond confusing. "It was BAD that you were touched. But Mommy and Daddy touched, and it's ALL GOOD because we are going to have a baby!"

I wonder if Siah's reaction to MEChelle's pregnancy had anything to do with this whole situation, and the fear that additional children would be at risk. I'm sure many of the kids thought that, we as viewers just happened to see Josiah. I also believe Jana is in fear of leaving the little ones unattended. My heart breaks.

[becca3891]

I just came across this horrifying article, with many images from IBLP teachings on sexual abuse. Gothard's level of victim is so horrible that it literally left me cold and shaking as I read it. It's a bit long but well worth your time. But if you have no time, the bullet point is that sexual abuse is normally the result of defrauding behavior, typically immodesty, and that even when immodesty isn't present, it means some other safe way out was available but the victim was not wise enough to take it. I never thought it was possible to be more disgusted with Gothard.

 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

[ginger90]

"My nurse rightly told her that it was out of her hands, that both for the little girl's sake as well as her son's; Children's Services was going to get a call.  The patient got irate, even angry about it."

 

I do hope the nurse was informed that there was no need to tell the patient that the call was going to be made.

 I believe we should ALL consider ourselves  mandatory reporters.

[MissMally]

Technically though you shouldn't be able to get those records through a FOIA request due to the sensitive nature of the subject. I never dealt with police molestation records but I did deal with the hospital aspect of molestation records and those were always kept confidential except to the staff treating the patient to the point the child brought in would be given a decoy name in the system.

Some police departments go overboard (admittedly so). But in my experience it's like pulling teeth to get anything that didn't concern you without going through miles and miles of red tape. I posted above what I had to go through in order to access police records. And mine weren't even close to the gravity of this situation. We actually thought we just had to file a FOIA request for the records since they were pretty innocuous until we went to police headquarters and they go SURPRISE! We need you to go through all these steps first and oh we need a proposal of what you're doing with the data from the records, etc. It was pretty time intensive. Although they were nice enough to waive the fee for the advanced background check I needed to access the records.

I don't exactly believe In Touch's claims they got it through FOIA unless JB and Michelle agreed to have the records public in the first place. Although if JB and Michelle did along with the dragging down Joy to sign to have the original records destroyed would reinforce my belief JB is retaining Lionel Hutz as legal counsel.

Edited May 22, 2015 by MissMally

[CofCinci]

Police investigation records are very accessible through FOIA. HIPAA-protected medical examinations are virtually impossible for the media to obtain, outside of a hospital employee illegally and unethically leaking them.

[bluebonnet]

I figured there was an exchange of money somewhere between a representative for InTouch and a member of the police department which is how the police report was obtained.  If they submitted an FOIA request, there should be a record of it.  So, unless someone from the family passed it along, someone from the police department messed up and/or is a bit richer than they were.  This is assuming it's difficult to obtain minor records for cases that involve a sexual crime.  

Edited May 22, 2015 by bluebonnet

[Pete Martell]

They cancelled Honey Boo Boo so if they keep the Duggars on then TLC has some fancy explaining to do.....

 

The main difference is that the latter was for viewers to laugh at the family. There was a pretense early on in talk about the show that we were actually supposed to love them, because they're so "heartwarming" and "don't judge a book by its cover," but that went away after a year or two and it just became a freak show. A freak show with increasingly low ratings. 

 

The Duggars, for some reason, actually seem to be seen as a model family by many in the public and the press. They aren't seen as a joke or a freak show. And if they still make money for the likes of TLC and People, then I won't be surprised if they go along with sweeping all of this under the rug and making Josh the victim.

[JenCarroll]

 

Edited to Add - Give yourselves a treat. Go to YouTube and search for Meryl Streep's 2010 Commencement speech at Barnard College. Highly recommend this - it's a wonderful talk and well worth the time. Meryl - like I know her !!! - mentions the fact that very soon female college graduates will outnumber male graduates in the US, that until the early part of the 20th century women weren't even allowed inside the college buildings at Barnard except to clean them, and that women in many countries can now OWN property, when they used to BE property. Great speech - and entertaining as well.

I didn't look at the video, but that's rather odd -- Barnard was founded in 1889 as a women's college, and still is one.

[CofCinci]

I expect TLC will cancel the series today. What does everyone else think?

[roamyn]

As the victim/survivor of child sexual abuse by a man who hid behind his religion and clearly said to me that it didn't matter if I forgave him because Jesus already had, I have a hard time having any sympathy for Josh. I have even less for Jim Bob and Michelle who, if the reports are correct that one or more victims was a sister, put their own political aspirations, fame whoring, and embarrassment ahead of their daughter(s)' well being. From what I am reading it happened and was reported to Jim Bob at least three times? I'm sorry but it stopped being only Josh's fault when he did nothing substantial to stop it the first time. Jim Bob is just as guilty for not protecting his children.

And again, I speak as a survivor here whose molester was a married man. If Anna truly knew of this prior to marrying him and having children with him, she is just as much to blame if he does anything to his own children. I don't care that he was a young teen at the time. He had no right to do what he did. He has no right now to act self-righteous and pious because his mother was fertile.

XCrystalPond, please sccept my condolences and congratulations on surviving.

As a fellow survivor (also of a married man who happened to be a family member), I understand your indignation, anger, and strength.

I've always felt sorry for Josh. Now he makes my stomach literally churn. I feel like throwing up, and the confused, angry feelings i went through are coming back to me.

Now it makes sense that Jana is perpetually sad. That Jill latched onto to someone from far away. That Jessa always seemed so over her family and latched onto a dim witted guy just to get out of that house.

And it also makes me REALLY angry that they consider Jill a "snitch" for telling, and that Meechelle hates her for it.

But I do want to say, that with the proper counseling, a pedophile CAN learn to cope with his feelings and urges. That doesn't mean you leave ANY children alone with him/her or that they can be 'cured'. But with the proper counseling, Josh could've gotten help - and the girls should have gotten it.

ETA: I don't blame any of them for going the forgiveness route. We have to forgive to move on emotionally and spiritually. That doesn't mean we forget. However, I had to learn this through professional counseling.

Example: another member of my family had the abuse worse than I. She never went to counseling (that I am aware), and she'san alcoholic who has bounced from man to man.

I'd also like to add that I am the one who turned in my abuser. THAT is why I am outraged over the "snitch" comments.

Edited May 22, 2015 by roamyn

[SomePity1066]

Oh, my good Lord, for all the snark I've been a part of and the, at times, genuinely mean things I've said I'd never, ever had wanted THIS to happen. Those poor, poor girls. My heart hurts for them to know that all this time they've been required - REQUIRED - to live and "keep sweet" with the monster who molested them. They made his meals, washed his clothes, baked him birthday cakes, and sang on stage at churches all over the country praising the love and togetherness of family. What a nightmare for them to live in the belly of the beast all those years and have to keep smiling. 

 

I'm beyond disgusted. There is absolutely NO excuse for what Josh did. None. Sure, little kids play "doctor" or whatever, but 14 is NOT a little kid, and they were his sisters. Even "godless heathens" know that's wrong. Disgusting. Wretched. An abomination. And this from a family that made their mark on the world specifically because of their RELIGIOUS beliefs. It's like everything there is a lie, a hypocritical quagmire that they ignored to stay in the spotlight and in the good graces (and pockets) of TLC. This isn't "Sin in the Camp", it's Sin in the Family. Sin in the Home. Sin in the Heart.

 

For the love of Jesus, Michelle and JB, why ? WHY ?!?!  You ignore, you excuse, you LIE about your own son defiling your darling girls. You fabricate stories about Josh's "rehabilitation" and accept him right back into the fold only to have him do it again. And then, from what I've seen and read, you send your daughters off to their own "camps" so that THEY can have a more open and forgiving heart ?

 

Those girls need to be gone, and NOW. Let them go somewhere far, far away from the brother who humiliated and exploited them. Let Josh suffer the consequences of what he's done and please, please - let him learn that a trite apology just will not suffice. He needs to be shunned, and Anna needs to leave him. Vows be damned, his children need to be safe.

 

As for Michelle and JB, I hope there's a list of criminal charges pending. Child abuse. Failure to report. Hindering prosecution. Making false statements. And on and on and on...

 

I think the jig is finally up. Show cancelled, gravy train over,  the false piety exposed. The veil has been lifted and now the evil that exists, created and hidden so well by the ever-smiling, malevolently creepy JB and the narcissistic, clueless Stepford Wife Michelle, has been laid bare for all to see. 

 

If they read the fucking Bible as much as they say they do they'd know the passage about reaping what you sow. They'll now all suffer for the hubris of the parents and the crimes of the son. Please, please let the children go, and leave JB, Michelle, and Josh to rot in that house of horrors. 

[bluebonnet]

The main difference is that the latter was for viewers to laugh at the family. There was a pretense early on in talk about the show that we were actually supposed to love them, because they're so "heartwarming" and "don't judge a book by its cover," but that went away after a year or two and it just became a freak show. A freak show with increasingly low ratings. 

 

The Duggars, for some reason, actually seem to be seen as a model family by many in the public and the press. They aren't seen as a joke or a freak show. And if they still make money for the likes of TLC and People, then I won't be surprised if they go along with sweeping all of this under the rug and making Josh the victim.

That's really sad because Honey Boo-Boo's family was as close to average as this network ever broadcast while the Duggars are some of the most abusive I've ever seen on tv.  

 

Yesterday I was certain TLC would cancel.  Now I'm becoming a little less sure.  I'm aware that the family has had previous scandals involving hatred and bigotry (from their end) and still they weren't canceled.  This is so much worse so it seems almost inconceivable that they'd continue with it.  However, the point about Honey Boo Boo reminds me that this network is incredibly classist and seems to have a seriously disturbing religious bent, to the point that they successfully create this terrible family into the 'model' family.  I don't know.  I'm really concerned.  

[xls]

I expect TLC will cancel the series today. What does everyone else think?

IMO, no. I think they will chug along like nothing happened. They have been sugar-coating this family for years.

[parisprincess]

I have a hard time believing Anna's story of knowing about Josh two years before they married.  Although I don't remember how long they courted or were engaged before their wedding, the standard in that family seems to be three month courtships and three month engagements.  Did they court for two years before he proposed?  If not, there is no way any Duggar would share such sensitive information with another family before there was a commitment of some kind.  The only talk about anything sexual allowed in that family is JimBob bragging about how often he gets to hump Michelle and torturing them with his constant molestation of her in front of them.  

 

eta:  One other sexual thing allowed is JimBob's constant references to his married daughters' sex lives.  That, in itself, is perverted.

Edited May 22, 2015 by parisprincess

[neece26]

The blame for all of this falls squarely on Boob and Michele.  They were/are so obsessed with popping out more kids that they ignored and neglected the ones that they have that need parenting, Josh included.   So many people to feel sorry for in this mess

[Slakkie]

I commented on this earlier so I'll just quote myself.  

 

Josh and Anna really are going to be financially fine, assuming there isn't some catastrophic thing that happens tomorrow or something.  I really wouldn't be surprised if Josh has retained at least his health coverage for a period of time as part of his severance package (no way he didn't get one).  And yeah, if worst comes to worst, Josh can just get a job like everyone else.  But really, these people are wealthy and are likely to remain fairly wealthy for at least a while.  

Nope, no way.  When you leave for a conduct charge you get NADA.  It is in most standard contracts and even more so when you are high profile.  Usually it is called "the morals clause."  A friend of mine just got hit with one and we work for a MAJOR financial company that has tolerance at all for risk.  Allegations were made of innappropriate contact with her boss (a kiss) at a conference.  They were both minorities in high level positions (which makes the firing even more amazing they are desparate for executive minorities especially women).  They reviewed internal messages and found a few that they deemed flirty and walked them out the door.  No severance no nothing.  They were people ON THE MOVE UP.  Both great workers.  A package is given so the ex-employee gives up their right to sue for wrongful termination - the company DID NOT CARE

 

I am sure FRC said dont let the door hit you on the way out. 

[OhioMom]

There's really no way to come back from this. I'm also kind of torn because while bad behavior shouldn't be rewarded, I would feel bad for the innocent children involved in this if the show were cancelled. TLC is their livelihood and they have been allowed no other skills or ways to support themselves aside from this show. By taking that paycheck away from them, it would kind of feel like they were being punished for being victims when they were children. I also think that this show kind of keeps JB and Michelle in check and I'd hate to see the little kids have to endure real JB and Michelle as the older kids had to.

I'm sure they've managed (through Jim Bob's impressive wheelings and dealings) to sock away enough to live on for quite a while.

The blame for all of this falls squarely on Boob and Michele.  They were/are so obsessed with popping out more kids that they ignored and neglected the ones that they have that need parenting, Josh included.   So many people to feel sorry for in this mess

No. Not all on them. Fourteen is certainly old enough (unless you are mentally challenged) to know that it's not right to touch sleeping girls on their breasts or vagina.  That's not to say the parents aren't 75% to blame, but let's not give young Josh a free pass.

[Pete Martell]

I loathe the whole "no one's perfect"......I get it.  But I do require common decency.

 

It's BS. They don't get to say "no one is perfect" when they support an organization that supported things like Uganda's "kill the gays" bill. They think what they see as imperfections are punishable by death. Yet when someone does what Josh Duggar did, suddenly it's time for "judge not lest ye be judged."

 

One of the main power structures propelling these types of Duggar boosters is victimization. They're victims. He's a victim. The Duggars are victims. Of the media, of Hollywood, of liberals, of Obama and Hillary and the ghost of Ted Kennedy, of lgbt people, of women who don't know their place.

 

It's one of the most depressing things to watch, because it means they or people they worship can do anything they want. It's never, ever their fault. 

[lottiedottie]

I'm not suggesting that boys don't molest in other countries -- I'm suggesting that the Duggars don't have the market cornered on being sexually repressed. Practically every 14 yr old boy out there is repressed -- all he wants is sex and rarely -- if ever -- can he get it. He handles it. Whether that's by jerking off or sneaking porn or finding a friend who will "consent" -- in any event the vast majority realize that touching a sister or a cousin is NEVER an option.

I don't consider the inability to get sex from someone as repression. The Duggars are repressed. They are not allowed to express normal, healthy desires in any way. That's repression. 14 year old boys are hormonal and are learning to understand what is going on with their bodies. Masturbation is a normal, healthy outlet for those feelings. I wouldn't characterize "practically every" 14 year old as repressed. Not all 14 year old boys are thinking about sex or wanting sex constantly.

[Bella]

I saw this quote on Facebook this morning:

 

Your beliefs don't make you a better person. Your behavior does.

 

That pretty much sums up my attitude toward the Smuggars trying to sugarcoat this ugliness.

 

They're not going to back down. They'll try to spin it. We saw that in Josh's non-apology apology. He still thinks he's better than everyone because of what he believes, and he thinks that what he did is secondary, a detail to be brushed under the rug.

[lottiedottie]

I'm still in shock. So many thoughts, so here are just a couple. I know we aren't sure which of the girls were abused, but one of the first things that leaped to my mind was Jana's statement that she has trouble harboring anger towards some of her family members. I think the implications of that are heart-breaking. As far as we know, NONE of the victims got counseling. The only counseling mentioned was for Josh, and that ended up being a lie.

 

I have always thought Josh had strained/nonexistent relationships with his sisters and now we know why. Boob decided the right way to handle it would be to tell Josh not to touch them, and to pray it all away. As others have said, it does explain the side hugs even among different sex siblings. But the horrible part about that is that they may have been told that front hugging Josh is what led him to the "need" to molest them. God, I hope that was never said.

 

Wow, maybe one of the girls did deliberately put the note into the book to give to the friend. I hadn't thought of that.

 

But sadly in this country, not illegal. I have said for years that they are being dishonest by not owning up to beating their children, and I'm glad the public will now know about that abuse as well.

Not illegal, but investigable by CFS if a report is made. Investigators could determine if severe corporal punishment is going on and decide to do something about it.

[StaceyNotStacie]

No, Anna won't leave him, but I don't know how she can stand to ever have sex with him again, knowing full well that he might be fantasizing about his sisters while they're doing it.

 

I've always thought that Anna resembled the Duggars and blended right in with the older girls.  Now that everything has come out about Josh, it makes their relationship a bit more skeevy.

 

According to my DVR, after today, there are no episodes of 19 Kids scheduled to air until Wednesday morning.  Plenty of time for TLC to rearrange their schedule to put something new in the lineup.  Right now Matt Rolloff, Kate Gosselin, the Sister Wives, and couponers and hoarders across America are probably doing a happy dance at the thought of their shows possibly being brought back to replace the Duggars.

 

I'm just wondering if they will air next season's episodes that they have already filmed.  There is stuff on Josiah's courtship and Jessa's pregnancy.  If they are planning on showing these episodes, I would bet that there is a lot of editing going on behind the scenes right now.  I doubt we will see a special on M4's birth (if they bring the show back, I wouldn't be surprised to see the opening lineup changed so that they don't have to show Josh and his family), but I'm guessing that there are still people who want to see something later this year on Jessa and her new family, along with updates on little Israel.

[Pete Martell]

Yesterday I was certain TLC would cancel.  Now I'm becoming a little less sure.  I'm aware that the family has had previous scandals involving hatred and bigotry (from their end) and still they weren't canceled.  This is so much worse so it seems almost inconceivable that they'd continue with it.  However, the point about Honey Boo Boo reminds me that this network is incredibly classist and seems to have a seriously disturbing religious bent, to the point that they successfully create this terrible family into the 'model' family.  I don't know.  I'm really concerned.  

 

It's a disgusting network. I regret that I used to watch Trading Spaces and that a few years ago I watched Who Do You Think You Are? I hadn't realized at that point just how much they profit from child abuse and bigotry. I don't even know how much is manipulating the "hating the right people" road show circuit and how much is genuine belief from those in charge of TLC. Beyond the "happy normal God-loving family" shows, early this year they even tried making a whole show about how fun and noble it is to be a woman married to a gay man, complete with yet more ties to hate groups. It just never stops. And I guess as long as the money rolls in, it never will.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Kippy]

I'm a little afraid to post my thoughts but here it goes.

- Josh was wrong. I just want to be clear that what he did was completely wrong. However, he was a kid in a totally different environment than most of us grew up in. I don't excuse his behavior and give him a free pass on it but I also don't think that mistakes made when you are 14/15 years old should define you for life. I also don't think that he should have to wallow in regret and guilt for the rest of his life. At some point you have to move on and this include the person who is at fault. I feel horrible for the girls and think that it is an awful situation but I wouldn't want them to hold onto it forever.

- I can't really fault JimBob either. Yes I would want to protect my daughters from any kind of threat but I would also want to protect my son. Just because he engages in horrible behavior does not erase the love I feel or the need to protect everyone of my kids. I can understand the desire to keep it in the family and first try to fix it. It may not be the correct choice but it is and understandable one.

This is all coming from someone who doesn't watch the show and has no negative feelings attached to the family. I also am a mother of three boys so I think that I am more sympathetic to sons. I just know that I would not want the mistakes they make at such a young age to ruin the rest of their hopefully long lives. Yes, consequences should happen but hopefully a recovery can happen as well.

[bluebonnet]

Nope, no way.  When you leave for a conduct charge you get NADA.  It is in most standard contracts and even more so when you are high profile.  Usually it is called "the morals clause."  A friend of mine just got hit with one and we work for a MAJOR financial company that has tolerance at all for risk.  Allegations were made of innappropriate contact with her boss (a kiss) at a conference.  They were both minorities in high level positions (which makes the firing even more amazing they are desparate for executive minorities especially women).  They reviewed internal messages and found a few that they deemed flirty and walked them out the door.  No severance no nothing.  They were people ON THE MOVE UP.  Both great workers.  A package is given so the ex-employee gives up their right to sue for wrongful termination - the company DID NOT CARE

 

I am sure FRC said dont let the door hit you on the way out. 

I feel I've talked this to death, but just once more.  

 

The big difference between your friend and Josh Duggar is that your friend violated the morality clause while they were an employee while Josh Duggar's allegations stem from when he was a minor.  Perhaps in some very special cases a morality clause covers behaviors from when employees were kids, but that seems unlikely and not at all legal.  That sort of stuff is what vetting is for.  Another difference between your friend and Josh Duggar is that Josh has been a spokesperson for a gazillion political 'things'.  He's a public figure, your friend likely isn't.  There are differences in the ways these things are handled.  

 

I guarantee Josh received some sort of severance, even if it's something like just health insurance for a few months.  Shit, the dude's face and profile are still on the FRC website.  The FRC really doesn't care what Josh did because he's a straight married man who acts as though he's only accountable to his imaginary friend - this is the exact sort of person the FRC trots out as the ideal, non-evil human being.  The only reason the FRC crafted this resignation is that they want their name as unassociated with the scandal as possible especially since they are intertwined with so many other high profile things and people right now.