Jessa, Ben and Their Brood: Making a (Diaper) Mountain out of a Mold House

[PecanSandie]

I could be wrong but I believe he saw the statue in person.

[Higgins]

IMO, this is what religion does. It pits one group against another. It divides and separates yet at the same time homogenizes. Ben is just expressing what he believes without any proof to back it up. He doesn't even know why he believes it.

[PecanSandie]

To be fair, Ben posted what he disagreed about regarding well known catholic traditions and posted Scripture as the basis for his opinion.

[Literata]

I was raised Catholic, and my ex-husband was raised Southern Baptist. When my former MIL went to Mass with me early on, she saw the giant Jesus on the cross behind the altar and said, "Oh, I feel so much better. I didn't know y'all had Jesus. I thought you just had Mary."

Where does this "just had Mary" stuff come from?

Ben's opinions are his own and he's stupid, so I couldn't possibly care less about them. But unless he learns to censor himself, he's going to be a giant liability to the brand. Between this mess and Jessa with the assault rifle, the TLC gods are going to have to rein them in, and fast.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Literata

[RedBaron]

I could be wrong but I believe he saw the statue in person.

 

Does it matter?  He still is drawing vast conclusions from one thing (that I'm very skeptical about) and spouting falsehoods based on his own ignorance and prejudices.  I agree that he has no idea what he's talking about but, heck, why should that stop him or make him educate himself a little before trying to speak about a subject that he obviously knows nothing about and offend people in the process?  I know he doesn't know better but,  like I said, he's obstinate in his ignorance so chances of him educating himself on anything are slim.  I feel sorry for him. 

 

 To be fair, Ben posted what he disagreed about regarding well known catholic traditions and posted Scripture as the basis for his opinion.

 

 

I disagree with this.  He did not post anything about well known Catholic traditions.  He posted a misguided and wrong statement about Catholic beliefs.  He certainly is entitled to his opinion but when it is clearly based on blatant misinformation, then he's showing he's not only ignorant but willing to spin things to justify his prejudices.  But, hey, it's not surprising considering how he was raised.

   

 

 

Ben's opinions are his own and he's stupid, so I couldn't possibly care less about them. But unless he learns to censor himself, he's going to be a giant liability to the brand. Between this mess and Jessa with the assault rifle, the TLC gods are going to have to rein them in, and fast.

 

 

Exactly.  

 

Anyway, I understand he's just a dumb kid and a victim of circumstance.  I get it.

Edited July 21, 2014 by RedBaron

[Ljohnson1987]

I hope that Jessa isn't stringing Ben along for the sake of the show. If she doesn't want to marry him, let him go. 

[JessDVD]

Ben needs to take notes from Jill & Derick and Josh & Anna, who mostly use Instagram to post pictures of them doing completely normal things that the voyeurs of America love (guilty here too), and their cute kids. A quick scan of each shows a few political pictures but the vast majority is, look at our charmed life. Stick to that, Ben.

[Higgins]

I kind of like that Jessa and Ben are a little rouge. It's more interesting when people have an edge to me.

[PecanSandie]

I disagree with this.  He did not post anything about well known Catholic traditions.  He posted a misguided and wrong statement about Catholic beliefs.  He certainly is entitled to his opinion but when it is clearly based on blatant misinformation, then he's showing he's not only ignorant but willing to spin things to justify his prejudices.  But, hey, it's not surprising considering how he was raised.

  

 

Just for the sake of clarification, here is Ben's post, which he posted after he was bashed on Facebook for the post about the church in Honduras.

 

"I have nothing against individuals who are Catholic. I know a lot of Catholics who are great people. What I DO have a problem with is the teaching that man can merit God's favor through his own works or the works of other fallen men.

 

Ephesians 2:8-9 is very clear "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast."

 

I DO have a problem with the teaching that man can come to God through Mary or any other person besides Jesus. John 14:6:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

 

I DO have a problem with the deification of Mary as a sinless being. Mary herself admitted her need for a Savior. (Luke 1:47). If she had no sin, she would need no Savior.

 

My conscience is captive to the word of God. Where my Catholic friends adhere to God's Word, I adhere. Where they depart from Scripture, I will in no way support, but will call them out because I love them and desire that they be turned from their deadly errors."

 

As I mentioned before, I don't have a problem when religions disagree with each other. That's just a part of life and all religions are not going to follow the same path. 

 

Ben is way more interesting now, to me as a viewer, because he (for a day or so anyway) didn't toe the party line. But I wonder if the Duggars will now force Jessa to break up with him?

 

It seems sort of weird that they are together anyway since he is a Calvinist and Jessa is not. Also, Calvinist do a lot of studying and deep theological reading and I don't see Jessa as the type to do that. It's also surprising that Ben went on a missions trip because Calvinist are not big on missions (that often) as they pretty much believe that only the people God has chosen will be saved.

 

Well, thanks to everyone for discussing this. It's been so interesting! 

[CakeLeigh]

Delurking to say a few things...

 

I am a lifelong Catholic and have been to many European churches including the Vatican.  I have never seen Mary portrayed on the cross.  When I Googled it, there were two that depicted Mary with the infant Jesus with a cross as a backdrop.  Not the same as a corpse of Jesus on the cross which is the Catholic tradition.

 

Secondly... Catholics do NOT believe that Mary was a sinless being.  The idea of the Immaculate Conception was that Mary was born without Original Sin, not that she didn't sin over the course of her life.

 

As a Catholic, I do choose to pray to Mary and other saints as a vehicle to get closer to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.  Mary and the saints are merely intercessors who with pray to God with us.  Catholics do NOT believe that Mary or the saints are deities.

 

Catholics also do not believe that "our way" is the "only way" to heaven.  We recognize there are many paths to God and that our way is just one of those paths.

 

What Ben posted was offensive to me... and I don't get offended very often, especiallly about religion.

[mledawn]

Catholics also do not believe that "our way" is the "only way" to heaven.  We recognize there are many paths to God and that our way is just one of those paths.

 

Really? This is an interesting side of Catholicism with which I am completely unfamiliar.

[CakeLeigh]

Really? This is an interesting side of Catholicism with which I am completely unfamiliar.

 

My understanding in what I've been taught in the Catholic church, both through doctrine and directly from priests is as follows:  Each human soul... all of mankind... will appear in judgement before Christ at the time of death.  There will also be a day of final judgement.  Again... for all mankind.  Not just Catholics.  For those souls who do not know Christ but who, with a sincere heart, seek God may achieve eternal salvation.

 

As with any religion, it is complicated and open to interpretation.  I do think that the Catholic religion is often misunderstood.

Edited July 21, 2014 by CakeLeigh

[abseedee]

It seems sort of weird that they are together anyway since he is a Calvinist and Jessa is not. Also, Calvinist do a lot of studying and deep theological reading and I don't see Jessa as the type to do that. It's also surprising that Ben went on a missions trip because Calvinist are not big on missions (that often) as they pretty much believe that only the people God has chosen will be saved.

 

I'm not surprised.  Jessa went so of course he had to follow.  Pickles and Hairspray posted a lot of pics from the mission trip.   It looks like they didn't break a sweat or got their hands dirty but, they sure took a lot of together pictures like they're on vacation.

[RedBaron]

After reading his post again, I see that Ben is even more ignorant and judgmental than I thought and that's saying a lot.  Lol!

[PecanSandie]

Delurking to say a few things...

 

I am a lifelong Catholic and have been to many European churches including the Vatican.  I have never seen Mary portrayed on the cross.  When I Googled it, there were two that depicted Mary with the infant Jesus with a cross as a backdrop.  Not the same as a corpse of Jesus on the cross which is the Catholic tradition.

 

(snip)

What Ben posted was offensive to me... and I don't get offended very often, especiallly about religion.

 

Hi Cakeleigh, I enjoyed your post and hearing your point of view. Just to clarify and forgive me if I am being redundant, but Ben didn't post the photo of Mary on the cross. He posted the photo of children kneeling before a statue of Mary. The photo of Mary on the cross was seen by me but a friend of mine saw it in person at the Santa Maria Maggiore, Rome.

 

I can completely understand why parts of Catholicism feel like an affront to Christian's like Ben. He's been raised to believe that the Word of God is the ultimate and final truth and going to another country and seeing parts of Catholicism that to him, disagree with the Bible, it is going to be a shock. 

 

But it looks like the mighty Duggarnaut brought him to heel and he won't be speaking out on his belief system and how it differs from others if he is going to stay in the fold.

 

Peace to you.

[MrMattyMatt]

I'm not surprised.  Jessa went so of course he had to follow.  Pickles and Hairspray posted a lot of pics from the mission trip.   It looks like they didn't break a sweat or got their hands dirty but, they sure took a lot of together pictures like they're on vacation.

Right!  You'd think if you were going on a "missions" trip, you would at least post pictures that showed you doing something.  Apparently Jessa and Bin's presence is simply enough to convert the masses.

[mimionthebeach]

So Bin went to a predominately Catholic part of the world on a "mission trip". I, as a second generation atheist, have always assumed that, these days, that meant helping in places that don't have the same quality of life we enjoy here at our computers. While there, he sees something - statues of children in a garden before a statue of Mary - he doesn't understand and gets kinda bent out of shape about it on Facebook. Rather than learning what was meant by the statues and learning something about the culture and beliefs of the people he is supposed to be helping, his own delicate religious sensibilities are offended. As someone who has learned an awful lot about many different religions and listened respectfully to many peoples' religious views I would suggest if he can't appreciate the differences he should just stay home. What a waste of an experience.

[mythoughtis]

Ben's only repeating what has been drilled into him from birth.  He's been taught incorrectly what Catholics believe, by the same people incorrectly taught him a lot of other Biblical stuff:  Women must wear skirts, be submissive, stay at home, have accountability partners, give birth every year or die trying, wear goofy moo-moos for swim wear, not speak to men, side hug.  Men must work for themselves,  not work evenings and weekends, wear jeans to swim in, run in, and so forth.  Why would he any more informed about Catholics than he is about Protestants? 

 

When I was his age, I had never knowingly met a Jewish person, and didn't even know what a Star of David was.   I did have cousins that were Catholic, but I had never been to their church.  I barely knew Protestant stuff, since we had bounced around between not going to church, and going to either Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist.   Give Ben some years, and some distance from his parents and the Duggars.  Maybe he will figure it out.  Life sometimes has that affect on you.  I do think he and Jessa will eventually break away from their roots, and move to something more mainstream. 

[RazzleberryPie]

Ben saw the picture of kids or actual kids bowing by a Madonna statue. He jumped the gun wanting to believe the heathen children were worshipping Mary, so he could reiterate that his faith is superior to anyone else's. I could look at a photo of someone sitting in on a rock praying, and rant that they were worshipping nature and going straight to hell, or I could keep my nose to myself and think maybe they're just praying on a rock - not to a rock.

 

Ben is an immature, sheltered teenager. He just wants something to rally around and use to assert dominance. Normal kids play football or video games to get out this aggression. Ben uses religion to do this. It's sad, but if he grew up in Iraq, he'd probably be strapping a bomb to his chest.

 

As for Jessa, as long as she can pile on makeup and take selfies, she'll follow anything.

[JessDVD]

To be fair(ish) to Ben, he was on the missions trip for how many days? 5-7ish? And posted a handful of pictures? (I don't actually follow him, but did scan over his FB a little yesterday) It's barely possible that he didn't take pictures of him doing actual work during the other 4-6 days plus 23 hours that weren't recorded on his pictures, because he was doing the work and so his hands were not available for a selfie (that sounded terribly wrong... sorry....).

[PinkSprinkles]

I think Ben should reach out to his Uncle Steve Carrell for some PR advice. 

[riverblue22]

I find it interesting that their mission work takes them to Catholic populations.  Do you suppose there are evangelical churches down there trying to convert the masses?  Do they do their "work" in areas targeted for conversion?  I really have trouble thinking they will get anywhere with that.  I don't know much about Catholicism in Central America but I do think it is a major part of the community.  It is my understanding that they have many holy days, celebrations, and festivals that unite the community.  How can you tempt people to leave that for the restricted rules of Gothardism?

[PecanSandie]

Ben's only repeating what has been drilled into him from birth.  He's been taught incorrectly what Catholics believe, by the same people incorrectly taught him a lot of other Biblical stuff:  Women must wear skirts, be submissive, stay at home, have accountability partners, give birth every year or die trying, wear goofy moo-moos for swim wear, not speak to men, side hug.  Men must work for themselves,  not work evenings and weekends, wear jeans to swim in, run in, and so forth.  Why would he any more informed about Catholics than he is about Protestants? 

 

 

 

Don't the women in Ben's family wear pants? I could be wrong but I don't think Ben grew up ATI. ATI is a whole 'nother level of fundie crazy for sure.

[RazzleberryPie]

Riverblue, a lot of these fundie trips are Missionary Tourism type deals. They benefit the missionaries more than anyone else. They usually go for a week or two to a disadvantaged area - the more exotic the better (Mexico, Central American countries, Native American reservations, Appalachia, Inner City, etc) and spend a week living in a church, rebuilding, teaching English, hosting Bible schools, having health clinics, etc. There are plenty of church services and "outreach" where they share the Gospel and try to get people to get saved. From my experience (rural Mexico, Kentucky, Cherokee NC, Warsaw), most of the native population takes it with a grain of salt. In the more rural and less educated areas, they accept the help and are polite, but think the White Man's Guilt and/or self righteousness from week long missionaries is amusing. In more educated areas (Warsaw in my experience), the people were more outspoken and rolled their eyes at evangelicals trying to convert a society without taking any cultural context into consideration. You can't be very successful trying to convert traditional Catholics and post-Communist athiests into forgoing pants and never touching alcohol.

 

Now on the other hand, missionaries like Derrick - who get to know the culture, are polite, take longer time commitment and show sincerity - are far more respected and have more of a chance of converting or at least educating native populations.

[lottiedottie]

I think Ben should reach out to his Uncle Steve Carrell for some PR advice. 

Say what now?

[PinkSprinkles]

Say what now?

 

Go back and watch the 19KAC episodes featuring Ben's family and take a close look at his father...

[Absolom]

Ben's family went to Vision Forum events before it folded.

[Mariva]

To be fair(ish) to Ben, he was on the missions trip for how many days? 5-7ish? And posted a handful of pictures? (I don't actually follow him, but did scan over his FB a little yesterday) It's barely possible that he didn't take pictures of him doing actual work during the other 4-6 days plus 23 hours that weren't recorded on his pictures, because he was doing the work and so his hands were not available for a selfie (that sounded terribly wrong... sorry....).

Their mission trip lasted 12 days. And it's way more than just a "handful of pictures". There's been about 50+ photos up so far and I'm not kidding when I say that at least a 1/3 of them are just selfies of Benessa. I'm not too familiar with what a mission trip usually entails but I highly doubt they did any actual meaningful, down-and-dirty work there. Based on pictures it seems like a lot of their ministry "work" involved fellowshipping with the locals and (for Jessa) painting little girls' nails. Meanwhile it looks like Benessa and co. had plenty of downtime to sightsee, share ice cream shakes together, relax at the beach and of course, pose for numerous photo-ops, because god forbid if all that time Jessa spent every morning getting her hair and makeup done just right (when she could have been helping the locals instead) goes to waste. Sounds more like they had a pretty cushy two week vacation to me.

[abseedee]

Their mission trip lasted 12 days. And it's way more than just a "handful of pictures". There's been about 50+ photos up so far and I'm not kidding when I say that at least a 1/3 of them are just selfies of Benessa. I'm not too familiar with what a mission trip usually entails but I highly doubt they did any actual meaningful, down-and-dirty work there. Based on pictures it seems like a lot of their ministry "work" involved fellowshipping with the locals and (for Jessa) painting little girls' nails. Meanwhile it looks like Benessa and co. had plenty of downtime to sightsee, share ice cream shakes together, relax at the beach and of course, pose for numerous photo-ops, because god forbid if all that time Jessa spent every morning getting her hair and makeup done just right (when she could have been helping the locals instead) goes to waste. Sounds more like they had a pretty cushy two week vacation to me.

Ben and Jessa...cheek to cheek, sitting doing nothing but smiling at the camera, under some kind of palm arch, in front of a sign, in a snack shop, sitting again doing nothing but smiling at a camera.and on and on.  Must be hard work posing for a picture.  I would love to have seen pictures of them doing some hard manual labor.  Oh wait, does painting nails count? 

[riverblue22]

I went over to Pickles and Hairspray and looked at those photos.  I found it rather shocking actually.  Nothing but group and individual selfies!  They are quite proud of themselves and I didn't see much help actually going on, except for providing nail polish to little girls.  It was an opportunity to vacation with like-minded self-righteous sorts.  There was a photo of a church service and all the white "missionaries" were sitting on one side of the church and the locals on the other side of the church.  I hope they at least fed those folks for putting up with that nonsense.  Those girls obviously spent just as much time primping as they do at home, and were hiking in flimsy sandals.  I guess they wore out their flip flops.

[PecanSandie]

Ben's family went to Vision Forum events before it folded.

 

All of the fundie heroes, fallen, fallen. Gotta wonder who they'll hitch their wagons to now. 

[PinkSprinkles]

I'm not a fan of two week long mission trips to foreign countries mainly because I think you should learn the language, customs, and culture of the people you are going to serve and spend enough time there to be of actual service. However, there is plenty of work to be done in the good ol' USA for our own citizens. I'm surprised (not really) that the Duggars wouldn't get involved in a conservation cause as Arkansas is the "Natural State" and places an emphasis on their natural resources. They could easily fund or maintain a local arboretum and put on free community events that are family-friendly and educational. 

[cmr2014]

 

I DO have a problem with . . .

 

I have a problem with an 18, year old kid who has nothing better to do with his time, and no other interests, than debating fine points of Christian doctrine with himself.

 

I seriously cannot imagine that this kid has any friends, much less Catholic friends. 

 

Ben has been raised to follow a very specific interpretation of Christianity, and he has been raised to "testify" to anyone who will listen. I hope that JB can put a muzzle on this kid, or push Jessa to break off the courtship. People who like watching the Duggars because they are "wholesome" or "Christian" will turn on them in an instant if their religious beliefs are insulted.

[Absolom]

People who like watching the Duggars because they are "wholesome" or "Christian" will turn on them in an instant if their religious beliefs are insulted.

 

That would not be a totally bad thing.

[Sew Sumi]

I have a problem with an 18, year old kid who has nothing better to do with his time, and no other interests, than debating fine points of Christian doctrine with himself.

 

I seriously cannot imagine that this kid has any friends, much less Catholic friends. 

 

Ben has been raised to follow a very specific interpretation of Christianity, and he has been raised to "testify" to anyone who will listen. I hope that JB can put a muzzle on this kid, or push Jessa to break off the courtship. People who like watching the Duggars because they are "wholesome" or "Christian" will turn on them in an instant if their religious beliefs are insulted.

This is exactly why TLC, Boob, or both, shut him down ASAP.

 

eta: I'm not sure how much of this the die-hard leg-humpers saw, but sadly, most of them would agree with BinBob's misguided views. That, or they're 15 year-old fangirls who really don't care. I'm not sure how much of this a casual viewer would have seen, and they're the ones who are really going to make or break this show, kind of like swing voters.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Sew Sumi

[Marigny]

I was raised and educated Catholic, by Jesuits.  This is the first time I've heard the concept of Mary being a co-redemptress.  The term is totally unfamiliar to me.  I have been to Rome, as well as most other European cities many times, and have never seen this Mary portrayed as being on the cross.  We were taught systems of logic and reason, and not so much the bible, especially the old testament that was before the Savior arrived.  Catholics are Christians, in fact, the original Christians.

Though I was raised Baptist and now consider myself non-denominational Christian, I was Jesuit educated. In all of my years of school and while studying in South America as a teen and Italy during college, I have never seen Mary placed in the position of co-redemptress nor on the cross. 

 

I think it's not just what he said, but the way he said it.  Him saying he "has a problem" with this or that belief is not going to bring anyone with those beliefs around to his way of believing. His condescending and superior way of getting his point across will just alienate people and push them away, not make them want to listen to what he has to say.   And apparently all the Catholic stuff came up on the mission trip, where he was allegedly going to serve, not to lecture/insult.

 

I agree that now that Ben has a Facebook following (because of the show) he has let it go to his head. Apparently he is not as strong in his beliefs as he claims to be, as I just noticed he deleted the post. What a punk.

I don't think he's ever been put in a position where he has actually been called on the carpet. He's probably used to spouting off to folks that are less informed or thinks like he does. If you are going to win an argument, you need to be able to argue both sides of the issue, not just your own myopic viewpoint. 

 

So Bin went to a predominately Catholic part of the world on a "mission trip". I, as a second generation atheist, have always assumed that, these days, that meant helping in places that don't have the same quality of life we enjoy here at our computers. While there, he sees something - statues of children in a garden before a statue of Mary - he doesn't understand and gets kinda bent out of shape about it on Facebook. Rather than learning what was meant by the statues and learning something about the culture and beliefs of the people he is supposed to be helping, his own delicate religious sensibilities are offended. As someone who has learned an awful lot about many different religions and listened respectfully to many peoples' religious views I would suggest if he can't appreciate the differences he should just stay home. What a waste of an experience.

I wish you could post this entire response on Ben's FB page. This just makes me all the more thankful that the Jesuits that educated me offered courses like world religions and taught me to learn about both sides of an argument before passing judgement. 

[PecanSandie]

Margins, Mary as co redemptrix and mediatrix is quite common. Pope JP II used the term frequently. And rather than consecrate his papacy with a declared devotion to Jesus Christ. He instead chose Mary.

I'm just a normal joe blow out here who hears and remembers this obvious Mary worship, which of course anyone is entitled to do. Many religions worship dead people or even things that were not human. More power to them.

But it seems disingenuous for people to say they have "never heard of" what Ben was saying about Mary and feign outrage when in fact the worship, veneration and prayers to the dead lady (may she rest in peace) is an ongoing practice in Catholicism.

Can we with all seriousness and complete honesty, hate and attack Ben for speaking truth where the bible is different from catholic tradition?

I wish a staunch catholic who knows the cc would come on here with the paragraph numbers and say, "look, we don't care if it's in the bible our not. We're going to believe paragraph 969 and that's final.

[Micks Picks]

There is a huge difference between a fact and a belief.  No matter how many Catholics come on this board to state that Mary is not "prayed to" and not a co-redemptrix etc, some choose to believe that it is so.  Ok.  Be that way.  But it is wrong.

 

Catholics don't normally go to a book or policy manual to prove a point.  We were taught logic, reason, ethics, etc.  So you win on literal interpretation of one english language version of the bible.

[Marigny]

Margins, Mary as co redemptrix and mediatrix is quite common. Pope JP II used the term frequently. And rather than consecrate his papacy with a declared devotion to Jesus Christ. He instead chose Mary.

I'm just a normal joe blow out here who hears and remembers this obvious Mary worship, which of course anyone is entitled to do. Many religions worship dead people or even things that were not human. More power to them.

But it seems disingenuous for people to say they have "never heard of" what Ben was saying about Mary and feign outrage when in fact the worship, veneration and prayers to the dead lady (may she rest in peace) is an ongoing practice in Catholicism.

Can we with all seriousness and complete honesty, hate and attack Ben for speaking truth where the bible is different from catholic tradition?

I wish a staunch catholic who knows the cc would come on here with the paragraph numbers and say, "look, we don't care if it's in the bible our not. We're going to believe paragraph 969 and that's final.

 

How is it disingenuous if that's legitimately not something that some of us in this thread have ever heard? 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Marigny

[AussiesRule]

Count me as another Catholic who has never heard of Mary as a co-redemptrix.  I am even shocked by these boards that people don't consider me a Christian because I am Catholic. To say that Ben "as a Christian" finds these things offensive is beyond my understanding. I always thought if you follow Christ you are Christian. Isn't that where the term comes from?

[Mullet]

The first time I realized that Catholics were not considered Christian was when we moved to the south. Ben is an 18 year old dope trying to be the new face of young hate mongers. He is well on his way. Reading the posts here - mostly by one in particular had made me revisit that feeling of shock that still our traditions are misconstrued and twisted. It does not matter how many posts claim we have never heard of or seem Mary on the cross. We are still lying I suppose. It's like arguing with a republican who saw it on Fox News.

[PecanSandie]

The first time I realized that Catholics were not considered Christian was when we moved to the south. Ben is an 18 year old dope trying to be the new face of young hate mongers. He is well on his way. Reading the posts here - mostly by one in particular had made me revisit that feeling of shock that still our traditions are misconstrued and twisted. It does not matter how many posts claim we have never heard of or seem Mary on the cross. We are still lying I suppose. It's like arguing with a republican who saw it on Fox News.

 

I really don't like to argue with fellow posters so I hope you'll take my reply in the spirit it's given, true respect.

 

Personally, I don't try and twist anyone's traditions. When I posted Ben's post here, I went straight to the Catechism and linked to it for clarity. I felt like if Ben was going to quote the Holy Bible to support the beliefs in his Facebook post, I should also link to the Catholic source for the beliefs Ben didn't agree with. I think Ben should have done that to.  

 

I don't think anyone is lying when they say they have not seen Mary on the Cross. By the same token, I'm not lying when I say I've seen a photo of that and my friend saw it in person when he went to Rome. It was simply used as an example of how biblical Christians who worship Jesus Christ are shocked when they see the veneration of Mary. It is not a belief they share and it is heresy to them.

 

Fox News? Huh? I don't watch it. But I do watch the Duggars! 

[Catlyn]

I'm wondering if Mary on the cross is actually a cult; the same as Santa Muerte. It's worshipped by some, while not sanctioned by the Catholic Church. If you were not knowledgeable about the Catholic church and went to Mexico and saw Santa Muerte all around, you would probably think it's not uncommon for all Catholics.

 

Ben is just a kid, with all the enthusiasm of youth, is spouting what he has heard all his life and now, people are listening. He hasn't had any life incidents that make him question or even try to learn more. It's a shame that he has no intellectual curiosity about other beliefs or why someone may want to believe differently. I thought if you understand why someone believes the way they do, it may give you a leg up if you were trying to convert them to your way of thinking...

Edited July 22, 2014 by Catlyn

[maraleia]

The conversation about religion has gone off the rails in this thread and since religious teachings are a subjective thing for each person I would like everyone to move on to another topic related to Ben and Jessa. Or here is a thought if there isn't anything new to talk about maybe leave this thread be for awhile.

Also, Catholics are a denomination of Christianity just like Baptists, Methodists, et. al. are and if Ben has been taught otherwise then he is misinformed. To be a Christian means that you believe in Jesus Christ that's it. Groups like Vision Forum spend lots of time and money teaching their followers that their way is the only way as far as Christianity is concerned. A young man like Ben who was raised with those beliefs would shout them from the rooftops (or Facebook) because it's his way of getting attention. This is what happens to (especially young) people who are sheltered like Ben, the Duggars, the Bateses et. al.

The combative tone that some of the posters in this thread are displaying will not be tolerated in the future. The rule of thumb you should consider would be if you wouldn't say what you posted to your grandma or your boss then you need to rewrite it or not post it aka Don't Be A Dick.

[PecanSandie]

What about all the make up, short skirts and tight shirts Jessa wears now, especially on a supposed mission trip to a third world country! Gotta wonder if that's Ben's influence or just her natural vanity surfacing?

She looks typical for a girl her age who is trying to get attention from her man, but it is way out of the ordinary for the Gothard cult and the Duggar family!

[David T. Cole]

I'm filling in for a mod on leave for a bit. I shall open up this topic again.

 

But why Dave why? Is it just a devious honeypot of chaos designed to find bad actors? Is it? IS IT?!

 

Who's to say?

 

I propose you take the finer points of Catholicism to Small Talk if you wish to continue the theological debate. Thanks.

 

http://i.imgur.com/ODsU8Gb.gif

[trimthatfat]

After seeing some of Jessa and Ben's pictures, I can't help but think they spend 50% of their time together trying to figure out the perfect pose for selfies and the other 50% of the time actually taking selfies.

[Micks Picks]

In the "selfie" way, they are quite like Kim and Kanye,

[ramble]

http://i.imgur.com/ODsU8Gb.gif

You dropped a Batman on us! You gave us Batman! Holy perfect timing. Batman makes everything better.

ETA: I may be a bit over the top in my Batman love, but the Adam West version was oh so positive. Example:

Robin: "That's an impossible shot, Batman."

Batman: "That's a negative attitude, Robin."

Topic? I looky-looed & Benessa does indeed enjoy the Instagram. I'm glad I'm too old & don't care enough to share my daily lurve across the interwebs.

Edited July 23, 2014 by ramble

[WTFFF]

Okay, but can we just take a minute and think about how stupid and poorly-spoken Ben is.

 

And then remember that he declared Jessa a "great thinker" on the subject of theology.  (Which I assume means "agreed with everything Ben said.")

 

I always suspected Jessa was dumb as a sack of diapers.  I feel like this is confirmation.  These two are truly perfect for each other, and God help us all when they start breeding.