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Jessa, Ben and Their Brood: Making a (Diaper) Mountain out of a Mold House


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The Duggars post about politics on social media frequently, but these social media posts are not an invitation to discuss politics here in this forum. This rule extends to Duggar adjacent families, friends, associates etc. Such discussions are a violation of the Politics Policy. 

I understand with recent current events there may be a desire to discuss certain social media postings of those in the Duggar realm as they relate to politics- this is not the place for those discussions. If you believe someone has violated forum rules, report them, do not respond or engage.

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Hoping Jessa decides to go to a hospital this time around to have her baby. That was pretty serious, what happened to her last time. I really hope all of them decide to go the hospital route, frankly. I've been hearing way too many horror stories concerning home births and even ones where the moms had midwives, no doctor. They must have some kind of health insurance, and anyway, Jessa can stay on the Jim Bob family plan until she's 26, even though she's married. 

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42 minutes ago, CarolMK said:

Hoping Jessa decides to go to a hospital this time around to have her baby. That was pretty serious, what happened to her last time. I really hope all of them decide to go the hospital route, frankly. I've been hearing way too many horror stories concerning home births and even ones where the moms had midwives, no doctor. They must have some kind of health insurance, and anyway, Jessa can stay on the Jim Bob family plan until she's 26, even though she's married. 

I seriously doubt that the Duggars or Seewalds have health insurance, because (1) ungodly heathen Obamacare, and (2) money. They may be part of some kind of fundie Christian sort-of health insurance thing that's been discussed around here, but I doubt it provides great coverage for hospitalizations if it's as cheap as it would have to be for JB to buy into it. Not so sure about the Dullards, but probably not for them either.

30 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

No matter what happened last time there is no way they will go to the hospital because they are still waiting for the perfect home birth.

^^^ This. And also, the hospital might not allow the TLC camera crew into the labor and delivery rooms.  

Plus, they have Dr. Jill to handle everything. With convenient amnesia on the part of everyone - apparently including TLC if they agree to film upcoming home births for these two eejits - about how Jill mis-managed her OWN labor/childbirth almost to the point of tragedy, and somehow her Skyped presence at Jessa's didn't prevent Jessa from almost bleeding out.

I just can't with these people.

EDITED to add: I truly seriously devoutly hope that both Jessa and Jill give birth to healthy babies, with no complications. That's one reason that although I'm no Duggar fan, the idea that despite both of their prior birth experiences, they are likely to take risks by doing home births, perhaps in part because TLC can film them, makes me so crazy. 

Edited by Jeeves
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2 hours ago, CarolMK said:

They must have some kind of health insurance, and anyway, Jessa can stay on the Jim Bob family plan until she's 26, even though she's married. 

The staying on your parents plan until 26 can change if the new president gets his wishes.

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I was reading the daily quotes on my office desk calendar today, and saw this one from Charles Spurgeon on the November 9th page:

"It is not how much we have, but how much we enjoy, that makes happiness."

Ben should forget all the brimstone stuff and live to quotes like this.

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On 1/4/2017 at 6:07 AM, Sew Sumi said:

I know. I hate to be so cynical, but all of my instincts about IBLP have been true, so why not a History of Gothard that this Tozer guy is a part of? Gothard would have been an undergrad at Wheaton when this Tozer guy received his honorary PhD. It all fits. 

I guess the next step is to check out Recovering Grace to see what they know.

What I've read about and by Tozer shows him to be very much a mystic and pretty firmly and loudly opposed to the kind of legalism and orthodoxy that Gothard is all about.

Tozer's stuff is all about heart and spirit and he repeatedly condemns every kind of thing that Gothard preaches. He's got books and books that, as far as I can tell, are the anti-Gothard in every way. So if Tozer was Gothard's mentor, Gothard quite early on turned 180 degrees away from his mentor's entire life view, spat on Tozer's grave, and sprinted off to set up a system that's the exact opposite and preaches everything Tozer said was wrong with conservative Christianity.

If Gothard sees Tozer as his mentor, I expect Tozer's been turning over rapidly in his grave for a very long time. (I'm sure Gothard did have mentors at Wheaton, but I don't see why they wouldn't have been faculty members, who are around every day, instead of some guy who most likely showed up on a commencement day to get a certificate and a stole and was never seen on the campus before or after. That's what most honorary doctorate people do, and Wheaton gives several every year, I think as many schools do.)

Do you actually think that Bin is going all Gothard? Seems to me that he's hanging around with old Vision Forum types, following his dad's Calvinism, and reading a lot of books that he heard about at Bible college -- which absolutely would have included Tozer -- not poring over Gothard's biography and following him. And these names are clearly coming from Bin, since they're derived from people whose books I'm sure he's looked at, not from Jessa. (not that I believe Jessa would have any knowledge of or concern about GOthard's intellectual mentors either == she's a Duggar)

Edited by Churchhoney
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2 hours ago, Rabbittron said:

We have been talking about this for a while. 

Churchie, this appearance of Ben's is the first time since his marriage that he's openly been associated with VF types, even those like Voddie and Scotty who broke with Doug years before Tool-o-ween (,sorry, I had to bust it out sometime). :,D

Edited by Sew Sumi
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1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

We have been talking about this for a while. 

Churchie, this appearance of Ben's is the first time since his marriage that he's openly been associated with VF types, even those like Voddie and Scotty who broke with Doug years before Tool-o-ween (,sorry, I had to bust it out sometime). :,D

Yeah, I guess you're right that it's the first public appearance.

But I'm thinking of two things that have made me think that Bin still was associated with Vision Forum people. First, a trip or two Bin made to San Antonio, where he said something about meeting with old friends -- and I figured those were probably people he'd met through Vision Forum, cause why else would Bin know people in San Antonio? And his web interview with some creationist or other -- and I'm pretty sure it was Jason Lisle, who will be at this upcoming event. In the past, Lisle has been associated with Doug Phillips, appeared on Phillips-run panels. So I figure Bin probably reached out to Lisle because he knew of him from Vision Forum, or else maybe was hooked up to him by somebody they both knew from Vision Forum.

Meanwhile, I don't remember any particular linkups between Bin specifically and Gothard people although I'm maybe forgetting something.

Edited by Churchhoney
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I recall that the Seewalds and Dullards were scheduled to headline some Christian Youth event in Indiana, but the event was canceled in the wake of Joshgate I (IIRC, the event was scheduled around my birthday, which would be about a month later.) 

I don't recall this being a Gothard type event, and VF was dead as a doornail (although there have been recent rumblings from the Phillips camp). With the other guests, such as Christian pop stars, it actually seemed far more mainstream than anything they'd done previously. Of course, this was the same stretch that Jessa found herself speaking at those Southern Women's shows, which always baffled me. I assume all of the Duggars share an agent, so those shows were a real oddity. 

Good point about the Seewalds being in San Antonio. I wonder if Jeremy has some VF ties before its demise? He went fundie a few years before moving there in 2014. 

Hmmmmm.... 

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On 1/4/2017 at 9:30 AM, Jynnan tonnix said:

I think it's actually LLTK for Long Live the King (meaning Jesus, of course).

They need a better graphic artist for the hats.  If many of us are seeing Lick its a bad job.  

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21 hours ago, ariel said:

The staying on your parents plan until 26 can change if the new president gets his wishes.

The one they voted for and from what I have heard will have a tax plan not generous to the super sized families.  I have not personally checked it out so I could be talking out of my behind.  

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3 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I recall that the Seewalds and Dullards were scheduled to headline some Christian Youth event in Indiana, but the event was canceled in the wake of Joshgate I (IIRC, the event was scheduled around my birthday, which would be about a month later.) 

I don't recall this being a Gothard type event, and VF was dead as a doornail (although there have been recent rumblings from the Phillips camp). With the other guests, such as Christian pop stars, it actually seemed far more mainstream than anything they'd done previously. Of course, this was the same stretch that Jessa found herself speaking at those Southern Women's shows, which always baffled me. I assume all of the Duggars share an agent, so those shows were a real oddity. 

Good point about the Seewalds being in San Antonio. I wonder if Jeremy has some VF ties before its demise? He went fundie a few years before moving there in 2014. 

Hmmmmm.... 

I suppose back when the show was at its apex they were booking some more mainstream Christian or lots-of-conservative-Christians-will-likely-attend events (like the Southern Women's shows?). As you say, it did seem that way. And their TV numbers probably seemed to warrant it. .... Now I'd expect them to have to rely on various connections more to get most bookings. One of their previous cults is dead and the other is limping badly.... but there are certainly individuals wandering around that were (or are, in the Gothard case) affiliated with both of them and are still looking to make a buck. Of course I'm sure Bin would leap at whatever chance came his way.

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4 hours ago, Natalie68 said:

They need a better graphic artist for the hats.  If many of us are seeing Lick its a bad job.  

I guess someone figured that a Gothic sort of font made it look more imposing and Biblical. Just that we are not that used to reading those letters as individual entities.

 

 

Encient-German-GothicA.png

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4 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I recall that the Seewalds and Dullards were scheduled to headline some Christian Youth event in Indiana, but the event was canceled in the wake of Joshgate I (IIRC, the event was scheduled around my birthday, which would be about a month later.) 

I don't recall this being a Gothard type event, and VF was dead as a doornail (although there have been recent rumblings from the Phillips camp). With the other guests, such as Christian pop stars, it actually seemed far more mainstream than anything they'd done previously. Of course, this was the same stretch that Jessa found herself speaking at those Southern Women's shows, which always baffled me. I assume all of the Duggars share an agent, so those shows were a real oddity. 

Good point about the Seewalds being in San Antonio. I wonder if Jeremy has some VF ties before its demise? He went fundie a few years before moving there in 2014. 

Hmmmmm.... 

FYI Josh and Anna were canceled from that even. The Seewalds and Dillard's both went and were on stage for it. I emailed the people backing it several times and never got a response. It was the June after Joshgate. 

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4 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I recall that the Seewalds and Dullards were scheduled to headline some Christian Youth event in Indiana, but the event was canceled in the wake of Joshgate I (IIRC, the event was scheduled around my birthday, which would be about a month later.) 

I don't recall this being a Gothard type event, and VF was dead as a doornail (although there have been recent rumblings from the Phillips camp). With the other guests, such as Christian pop stars, it actually seemed far more mainstream than anything they'd done previously. Of course, this was the same stretch that Jessa found herself speaking at those Southern Women's shows, which always baffled me. I assume all of the Duggars share an agent, so those shows were a real oddity. 

If you mean the 2015 Alive Christian Music Festival in Ohio, the Smuggars cancelled their scheduled appearance but the event was not cancelled, and the Seewalds and Dullards appeared. 

I also thought those Southern Women shows were odd, because IIRC they weren't outwardly officially Religious with a Capital R or Christian with a Capital C. 

Edited by Jeeves
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16 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I also thought those Southern Women shows were odd, because IIRC they weren't outwardly officially Religious with a Capital R or Christian with a Capital C. 

Well, there definitely is that type of "generically wholesome people here" mental grouping amongst Southern women, I think, which may encompass a large portion of people expected to show up.

Also I feel like my homeschooling cousins said they saw an invitation to a Northern type convention where the Duggs were expected to attend (this would've been several years ago.  They aren't followers and gave vague consideration to a go-see just for the curiosity factor, but skipped it).

Edited by queenanne
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37 minutes ago, queenanne said:

Well, there definitely is that type of "generically wholesome people here" mental grouping amongst Southern women, I think, which may encompass a large portion of people expected to show up.

 

Yes, evangelical Christianity is so pervasive there that even if not religious, it's normal. A coworker of mine was the executor of a relative's estate, said relative lived in the south. She was talking to a lawyer down there about another lawyer (lawsuits involved), and he described the other lawyer as "a good Christian." My very northern, slightly religious coworker could not get over that. That a lawyer, that any professional with an advanced degree, would talk that way especially in the context  of work. But...South. 

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12 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Yes, evangelical Christianity is so pervasive there that even if not religious, it's normal. A coworker of mine was the executor of a relative's estate, said relative lived in the south. She was talking to a lawyer down there about another lawyer (lawsuits involved), and he described the other lawyer as "a good Christian." My very northern, slightly religious coworker could not get over that. That a lawyer, that any professional with an advanced degree, would talk that way especially in the context  of work. But...South. 

Nowadays that's probably shorthand for "he/she won't cheat you or do unscrupulous stuff just to do unscrupulous stuff"... wouldn't you say?  my assumption is some type of bedrock of honesty in court.

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35 minutes ago, queenanne said:

Nowadays that's probably shorthand for "he/she won't cheat you or do unscrupulous stuff just to do unscrupulous stuff"... wouldn't you say?  my assumption is some type of bedrock of honesty in court.

 Does that statement imply that if the lawyer is Jewish or non-Christian they can't be trusted to be honest in court?

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11 minutes ago, ariel said:

 Does that statement imply that if the lawyer is Jewish or non-Christian they can't be trusted to be honest in court?

Well, they'd probably have some kind of qualifier like "not a Christian but still a good sort of person", provided they knew about the person's religious background. 

Which they probably would, at least down South.  Which I grant is an impression I've formed mainly off of reading, I haven't lived in the South since age 10.  But I'm told there are still some places where the church is important and essential to the general social fabric in America, at least in the way of "everyone goes to church thus church is a good sort of place to meet clients", which also applies to insurance brokers and financial consultants, etc.

As for the Jews, I feel like Mosaic law is embedded in the American judicial system in some way already, though don't ask me how, so perhaps self-explanatory to said lawyers...?  If and when there wouldn't be discrimination against Jews in the South.  I bet rurally there are still some places where anyone not Baptist is considered Other.

Edited by queenanne
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1 hour ago, queenanne said:

Nowadays that's probably shorthand for "he/she won't cheat you or do unscrupulous stuff just to do unscrupulous stuff"... wouldn't you say?  my assumption is some type of bedrock of honesty in court.

That "good Christian" would be the shorthand for honest person is exactly my point about the pervasiveness of fundamentalism in the South. The majority of US citizens are Christian but it's only in the South that people talk that way to everyone. 

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10 minutes ago, lascuba said:

That "good Christian" would be the shorthand for honest person is exactly my point about the pervasiveness of fundamentalism in the South. The majority of US citizens are Christian but it's only in the South that people talk that way to everyone. 

This is true. I grew up in an a heavily evangelical part of Texas, where anyone not IFB or some other type of doctrine IFBs could at least get behind, wasn't considered a "Christian".  At that time, my 11 yo mind had a lot of questions.  I knew a lot of very good and decent IFB people there, who softened their stance upon hearing from individuals not of their ilk and finding common ground, but collectively wrt some other denominations ...that was a different story.

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I grew up in a relatively small southern town, and everybody went to church. Religion wasn't super important in everyday life, and we certainly didn't talk like the Duggars, but I could probably go through my high school class and tell you where everyone went to church. It really surprised me in college (also in the state, but bigger city) when I found out that a lot of people don't go! Now I live in a major southern city, and it's mixed...you have good ole Baptists who would never drink, atheists, and everything in between. 

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50 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

I grew up in a relatively small southern town, and everybody went to church. Religion wasn't super important in everyday life, and we certainly didn't talk like the Duggars, but I could probably go through my high school class and tell you where everyone went to church. It really surprised me in college (also in the state, but bigger city) when I found out that a lot of people don't go! Now I live in a major southern city, and it's mixed...you have good ole Baptists who would never drink, atheists, and everything in between. 

Exactly! A good mix of people helps broaden everyone's world view. When we meet other people not like ourselves and learn from them and find common ground, we are all the richer for it...said no Duggar ever.

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Especially Jessa. Remember her inability to take roses from strangers in a park or her foray into Flame's studio with the ebil rap music? Not that her parents, siblings, or their spouses (save Ben, who seems to have a fairly open mind about people not like him) are that much better. 

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35 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Especially Jessa. Remember her inability to take roses from strangers in a park or her foray into Flame's studio with the ebil rap music? Not that her parents, siblings, or their spouses (save Ben, who seems to have a fairly open mind about people not like him) are that much better. 

Yesssssss! This continues to be mentioned from time to time on the forum, because it highlights just how sheltered and insular the Duggars really are and how uncomfortable they are with others.

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I used to run a non-profit here in Alabama, and when we were working to improve the diversity of our board, religion was very much a factor. We managed to have both a Jew and a Hindu in our organization, which was no mean feat in our overwhelmingly Christan city. But religious diversity for us largely meant looking at potential members' church denomination . . . as in, "We already have several Episcopalians and Baptists; does anyone know any Methodists who are good prospects?" Not even kidding. Churches are a fundamental part of the social fabric, and they can be an important point of networking for business and especially for charitable dealings. 

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1 hour ago, Portia said:

Churches are a fundamental part of the social fabric, and they can be an important point of networking for business and especially for charitable dealings. 

Indeed they are, and they are capable of doing a lot of good for the community. Unfortunately, there are some toxic churches that ruin the whole experience of what a church should be for a lot of people. 

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It also says something that even those Christians who aren't anywhere near Duggar levels are still so socially unaware that they'd say something like "he's a good Christian" to someone not from their area and in a professional setting. I'm not saying all those individuals are toxic or something, but it says something about that mentality/culture. 

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8 minutes ago, lascuba said:

It also says something that even those Christians who aren't anywhere near Duggar levels are still so socially unaware that they'd say something like "he's a good Christian" to someone not from their area and in a professional setting. I'm not saying all those individuals are toxic or something, but it says something about that mentality/culture. 

I agree. You NEVER hear anyone say that around here. It's kind of like the electric 3rd rail; you don't discuss race or religion in those terms. For instance, one time my MIL was talking about a woman who works at her retirement community and said, "She's nice for an Asian person." I totally went off on her. Why? First off, you just don't say that about anybody. Secondly, and most importantly, her only granddaughter is half CHINESE. She does the same thing with religion: "She's so nice even though she's Muslim," etc. She has no clue how racist/xenophobic she sounds. But that's the culture HERE. 

And there are some pretty shitty people of all races and religions. People from my dad's Dutch Reformed church used him horribly to design and build a Christian coffee house. My dad had the patience of a saint, but he finally had enough with these assholes and told them to basically shove their plans up their asses. My siblings and I were *this* close to suing the "good Christian" lawyer my dad hired to handle his estate. 

Do people in these "good Christian" cultures actually point out the "bad" ones? I'm genuinely curious. 

Back to Jessa and Ben: Like all Duggars, I think they are VERY picky about who they choose to be in their inner circle and who they do business with. God forbid they give their money to a non-Christian business. They must get very sick of shopping for furniture at Sam's, sipping coffee at Mama Carmen's, or having "date night" at Tacos4Life. I'm sure there are plenty more businesses run by "good Christians" in the Fayetteville area. They need to broaden their horizons. 

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My husband has run a real estate company for twelve years and you start to notice trends. The group that has screwed him and/or his agents most often by a huge margin has been the Conspicuous Christians...praying in restaurants, fish on the car, name dropping Jesus...including a minister and his wife who dragged him to every new listing in town and then went behind his back to the owners every time trying to finagle their way into living there free because Jesus. This type figures they answer only to God, so screw everyone else.

In other words...the Duggar Creed.

(It says something about how utterly dreary these people are that it's so easy to stray from talking specifically about them. There's really no there there.)

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8 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Do people in these "good Christian" cultures actually point out the "bad" ones? I'm genuinely curious. 

Back to Jessa and Ben: Like all Duggars, I think they are VERY picky about who they choose to be in their inner circle and who they do business with. God forbid they give their money to a non-Christian business. They must get very sick of shopping for furniture at Sam's, sipping coffee at Mama Carmen's, or having "date night" at Tacos4Life. I'm sure there are plenty more businesses run by "good Christians" in the Fayetteville area. They need to broaden their horizons. 

A quick search on "religious affinity fraud" will explain why I am leery of anyone who advertises or promotes a secular business with a "Christian" tag. Including the fish symbol. There are "Christian" business owners who are incompetent and/or unethical, and there are plenty of "good Christians" who swindle life savings from churchgoers. Sure, there are many good Christians who are competent and honest in business. And they don't need to use their religious label to get repeat and word-of-mouth business. Maybe in some small towns you gotta go that route. But when I have options I avoid self-advertised "Christian" businesses, for anything and everything.

I agree, the Duggars live in an area with a lot of businesses, but I assume Jessa and Bin are following in JB's footsteps (since after all they are living in his house). And JB seems all about trading with other Christians and avoiding the heathens as much as possible.

Edited to add: @Oldernowiser posted while I was writing. "Conspicuous Christians" - phrase of the day!! Your husband's experience with those CCs doesn't surprise me at all. Duggar Creed, indeed. 

Edited by Jeeves
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15 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

A quick search on "religious affinity fraud" will explain why I am leery of anyone who advertises or promotes a secular business with a "Christian" tag. Including the fish symbol. There are "Christian" business owners who are incompetent and/or unethical, and there are plenty of "good Christians" who swindle life savings from churchgoers. Sure, there are many good Christians who are competent and honest in business. And they don't need to use their religious label to get repeat and word-of-mouth business. Maybe in some small towns you gotta go that route. But when I have options I avoid self-advertised "Christian" businesses, for anything and everything.

I agree, the Duggars live in an area with a lot of businesses, but I assume Jessa and Bin are following in JB's footsteps (since after all they are living in his house). And JB seems all about trading with other Christians and avoiding the heathens as much as possible.

Edited to add: @Oldernowiser posted while I was writing. "Conspicuous Christians" - phrase of the day!! Your husband's experience with those CCs doesn't surprise me at all. Duggar Creed, indeed. 

I think in general people are attracted to being in their own herd/tribe and they trust the members of it for the same reason that sheep and wolves walk around in bunches. And of course that gives members of herd/tribe who have strong look-out-for-yourselves-and-don't-care-about-others genes lots of golden opportunities to screw people over much more easily than they could if they had to approach and win the trust of non-herd/tribe members before they could quietly steal from them.

I expect that in a country that's mostly Christian we notice the Christian religious affinity fraud more mainly because the numbers are so much bigger that there's a lot more of it. I do wonder, though, whether some conservative Christian herd/tribe leaders don't partly push the whole isolation and solidarity thing just so they can build up the don't-trust-any-outsider thing in their own group and thus make them more easily fleeceable for them as insiders. People like the Gothard family -- who not only have two brothers who've molested people but a third brother who's flat-out stolen people's savings -- and Doug Phillips come to mind. But there are lots more.

I also expect that the Duggarlings such as Bin and Jessa will make a ton of mistakes later in their life by trusting exactly the wrong people. Their isolation; their naivete about people and the world; the model of Jizm Bob who, as you say, is really into the don't-mess-with-outsiders thing; and their eagerness to keep proving that they're the best people among the best people will make them way gullible for unscrupulous conspicuous Christians, I'll bet. I see damaging financial deals and promised pay not received and so on for a lot of them, once TLC leaves the picture and Jizm Bob gets too old to scare anybody off by being litigious and the Duggar young have to fend for themselves.

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42 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

My husband has run a real estate company for twelve years and you start to notice trends. The group that has screwed him and/or his agents most often by a huge margin has been the Conspicuous Christians...praying in restaurants, fish on the car, name dropping Jesus...including a minister and his wife who dragged him to every new listing in town and then went behind his back to the owners every time trying to finagle their way into living there free because Jesus. This type figures they answer only to God, so screw everyone else.

In other words...the Duggar Creed.

(It says something about how utterly dreary these people are that it's so easy to stray from talking specifically about them. There's really no there there.)

I've found the same to be true when hiring people.

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1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

 Sure, there are many good Christians who are competent and honest in business. And they don't need to use their religious label to get repeat and word-of-mouth business. Maybe in some small towns you gotta go that route. But when I have options I avoid self-advertised "Christian" businesses, for anything and everything.

This. The people you really want to do business with don't need to drag God into it...their work speaks for itself.

You have to wonder how often the Duggar "reputation" of being so devout and "blessed" (another red flag when used conversationally, IMO) has helped to bilk people into crappy deals. After all, they ran a used car lot and cheap property rentals, not businesses exactly known for their honest dealings.

 It's interesting that this next generation of spouses (looking at you, Bin) is going straight to the ministry instead of some real business cloaked in Duggar piety. Hey, cut out the middle man and that messy business of actual work and straight out hit the gullible up for money! I'm guessing Princess Jessa has expensive  taste.

Edited by Oldernowiser
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1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

I think in general people are attracted to being in their own herd/tribe and they trust the members of it for the same reason that sheep and wolves walk around in bunches. 

This - calling people good Christians isnt calling everyone else bad heathens. It's no different than having a Mason or Moose sign, or shamrock, fraternity sign, military star, various country flag, rainbow, etc. sticker on your car. Most humans do seem to try to identify with groups. Now whether or not they exclude people or hate other groups is a different story. 

Government hiring or refusal of service to anyone who doesn't claim to be a 'good Christian' is illegal. Just one person calling another person a good Christian is really being over thought. It's just supposed to imply that they're a decent person, not exclude or demean anyone else.

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