Jessa, Ben and Their Brood: Making a (Diaper) Mountain out of a Mold House

[Ljohnson1987]

Really? I thought she was due a lot earlier. Wow, this is the longest pregnancy in the history of pregnancies. 

I meant when she's going to be doing some of these appearances. She's doing one on 10/17, and is due 11/1. Anything for a buck, I guess. 

[JennyMominFL]

Definitely it's good in some cases, male ones especially, I would guess. But I'm not sure how well it works for young girls who've had the horror of impurity pounded into their heads to learn about how their bodies respond to touch and experience pleasure, though. They're living under surveillance and a Stasi-type system, as well. Which is inhibiting. I once resorted to an upper room in a public library, which felt safer to me than any place in my own home.

 

 

As someone who studies East Germany, these kids have it way worse than life under the Stasi. Did you know there was a big nudist movement in East Germany? Well there was. The Duggars would die. Oh and East German women had rights and education too. The Duggar girls would be lucky to grow up in a Stasi style system. It would be an improvement.

Edited July 30, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[Churchhoney]

East German women had rights and education too.

 

I guess when you come right down to it, it's the sexism and the lack of education that are the true horrors, for all the kids ultimately, not even just the girls. And none of them has the slightest idea that that's the case, it seems. Those things are likely going to really squash their opportunities, of all kinds, in the modern world once their "fame" recedes. An even scarier fate for people who've been set up, to this point, to have such high expectations for how the world will treat them.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Churchhoney

[GEML]

I honestly, having grown up on the edges of this world, cannot in good faith, say that the Duggars lives are like those under Communism because they may or may not be able to masturbate. I think these girls have more freedom than we think. They know when to "pretend to be asleep."

[Julia]

Remember their favorite talking point, that romance novels are to women what porn is to men.

 

This is my first time encountering this talking point. I'm guessing that they don't actually mean that porn isn't damaging for women?

[NEGirl]

becca3891, on 30 Jul 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

    Remember their favorite talking point, that romance novels are to women what porn is to men.

Only the Duggars could come up with crap like that.

Edited July 30, 2015 by NEGirl

[Joe Jitsu913]

This is my first time encountering this talking point. I'm guessing that they don't actually mean that porn isn't damaging for women?

In Duggarville, godly young women would never consider looking at porn. They read romance novels that "stir up desires that cannot righteously be fulfilled" (per Jill). When desires are unrighteous, major sinning happens and it makes baby Jesus sad.

[JoanArc]

In Duggarville, godly young women would never consider looking at porn. They read romance novels that "stir up desires that cannot righteously be fulfilled" (per Jill). When desires are unrighteous, major sinning happens and it makes baby Jesus sad.

It's more godly to skype with a random guy and instantly declare your undying love. After grilling him, of course.

[Churchhoney]

This is my first time encountering this talking point. I'm guessing that they don't actually mean that porn isn't damaging for women?

I think they mean that women aren't interested in porn but they are interested in romance novels, which have similar dangerous effects on them as porn has on men. They're far from the first or only people who've said that, of course.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Julia]

I think they mean that women aren't interested in porn but they are interested in romance novels, which have similar dangerous effects on them as porn has on men. They're far from the first or only people who've said that, of course.

 

Actually, what struck me about the whole conversation was that there are feminists out there who agree with them strongly on both those points (porn for men=bad, "romance" for women=bad), although for completely different reasons.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Julia

[sometimesy]

Some of those romance novels are shocking lol. I picked one up at a seniors home out of boredom expecting the kind from the seventies but WHOA times have changed!.

 

Jessa and that sucker, c'mon she has been watching, reading whatever she wants, and that sucker (lollipop) in the car wash was all the proof I need. She is a fundy trying to be a vixen.. That stupid pose of Bin.. really? He works out, but I have a hard time seeing him as a jock. For my taste he is meh, but Jessa and a lot of people  see him as a stud I guess.

 

She's exploring who she is imo, and I am ok with that. Just lay off the advice for others Benessa.

[kalamac]

This 'romance is porn for women' thing reminded me of this comic...

https://xkcd.com/714/

[becca3891]

This is my first time encountering this talking point. I'm guessing that they don't actually mean that porn isn't damaging for women?

It's their usual black and white nonsense. Women are supposedly ONLY tempted in emotional ways, and can apparently be defrauded by wistfully reading romance novels. They aren't even talking about the graphic kind, I don't think. It leaves no room for the fact that many women do use porn, and men can get their hearts broken from "giving away pieces of it" just as easily.

 

But, you know, it was completely clear that from the very first Skype conversation with Derick, Jill HAD given away her heart. If things hadn't worked out, she would have been heartbroken. That's why their relationship book is so very silly -- none of them had any clue writing it that our brains don't have on/off switches. We can tell ourselves not to fall for someone and risk heartbreak, but the reality is, if it's going to happen, it will happen, with or without sex or dating. By all accounts, Zach Bates was heartbroken after his failed courtship. 

 

Actually, what struck me about the whole conversation was that there are feminists out there who agree with them strongly on both those points (porn for men=bad, "romance" for women=bad), although for completely different reasons.

Yes, it's interesting how ultra conservatives and some feminists have that in common. I have my concerns about certain types of professional porn in particular that portray women in extremely demeaning ways, and I know it can lead to relationship troubles, but I also think there's plenty of porn, especially amateur and made by women, that is fine, so I see both sides of it. 

Edited July 31, 2015 by becca3891

[becca3891]

This 'romance is porn for women' thing reminded me of this comic...

https://xkcd.com/714/

That is perfect! Thanks for sharing.

 

Regarding Jessa and the lollipop, I honestly don't think she knew that it appeared suggestive. I mean, Ed Wheat's books do hint at oral sex, but I don't see how, unless she has gone completely crazy on the internet since getting married, which I guess is possible, that she would be aware of how that might look, and would then want to put that out there for the world to see on Youtube. Then again, Boob is her father. He's probably sorry he never thought of the idea of giving Mechelle a Popsicle or lollipop to suck while he leered and made suggestive remarks.

[Julia]

Not speaking for any of their actual kids, but if I had to watch that kind of prurient overshare between my parents I probably would have become asexual in self defense.

[GEML]

Even in the 1970's, there were some pretty graphic "romance" novels. My secular grandmother used to pass them along to me under a bundle of Agatha Christies. Oral sex was the least of it....

But this would mean the Duggar girls actually read a whole book. Call me skeptical....

[Sew Sumi]

Jessa isn't due until November 1, so she's not even 30 weeks.

 

Well, for years I thought the "sin in the camp" story rang true, and it was. I can well believe this one is true too. They directly talk about the wrongs of masturbation in one of their books, and it is a big deal in their world. My money is on the shower being a popular location, unless they have to have accountability buddies there too. The boys, anyway -- in their world, I don't think they think it's a temptation at all for girls. Remember their favorite talking point, that romance novels are to women what porn is to men. I will agree, though, with the person a few posts up, that it's probably a stronger biological need for boys/men, and most likely discover it sooner and would have a harder time controlling it. Not at all saying women don't have sex drives, of course.

Jessa's last show appearance is 10/17, 2 weeks before her due date. That's what the OP was referring to. 

[sometimesy]

Even in the 1970's, there were some pretty graphic "romance" novels. My secular grandmother used to pass them along to me under a bundle of Agatha Christies. Oral sex was the least of it....

But this would mean the Duggar girls actually read a whole book. Call me skeptical....

What an amazing grandmother!

 

They may read an illustrated novel if someone slipped them one.

[Defrauder]

I wonder if the lack of privacy in the house and the feeling that masturbation is sinful is the reason why sex is expected to only 'take a few minutes'.  A learned response. Quick - don't get caught!  

[GEML]

I wonder if the lack of privacy in the house and the feeling that masturbation is sinful is the reason why sex is expected to only 'take a few minutes'. A learned response. Quick - don't get caught!

There may be some truth to this. If you only have five minutes, you learn to make the most of five minutes.

[kokapetl]

I think Joe must have known why the howler was sleeping by his bed:

Maybe a 'don't ask, don't tell' sort of situation, but above all, hide it from the younger ones, especially Jackson.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Kokapetl

[Temperance]

Jana's 26. 

 

Jana is 25.

[Churchhoney]

Jana is 25.

Thanks. Didn't intend to age her before her time.

[kokapetl]

I honestly, having grown up on the edges of this world, cannot in good faith, say that the Duggars lives are like those under Communism because they may or may not be able to masturbate. I think these girls have more freedom than we think. They know when to "pretend to be asleep."

JimBob does try:

East Germany knew what they were doing, their GDP per capita was roughly 2/3 of West Germany's. They were the wealthiest eastern bloc country. Women were granted relative liberty, but the country really did need their labour, and I don't think porn was officially allowed.

[JoanArc]

To be fair, they seemed to use those camera for monitoring Josh's location, more than watching all the kids.

[Sew Sumi]

Since when has there been a kiddie swingset out there on the patio?

[JoanArc]

They built a little playground. You can see it in aerial photos of the TTH. It's been there awhile, I think. Nice to see they realized kids like to play outside.

 

Edit: I think they added it in the past year. I know I've seen it in newer pics. It's near the tennis court. (TENNIS COURT. Duggars, stop asking for money. Sheesh.)

Edited July 31, 2015 by JoanArc

[Sew Sumi]

Okay, that sounds about right. I also doubt that the swing pic of Hannie and Jackson that surfaced a week ago came from this play set. The grass behind them looked too lush and well-manicured, I don't remember baby swings, and it looked like sand underfoot. Who knows what they have underneath this swingset, given its proximity to the house? Sand would be a nightmare to clean for people who are already cleaning-challenged.

 

Back to Benessa, how long before they install Stasi-esque cameras? It's a given that Jill will put them up pretty soon; she has admitted that she's going to raise her kids like Mechelle "raised" her. Jessa hasn't said a word about this. 

Edited July 31, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[GEML]

I think they claim that their children tell them "everything" because that makes it sound as though they all have close relationships and are open abut things. But think about it - Michelle can hardly distinguish among her children. Does that sound like a mother who knows what her children are doing?

It's just a line.

[Churchhoney]

I'm sure you're right about JB and M hearing closer to nothing than everything from their kids. I had an extremely intrusive family who actually did try to find out everything, and the result was that I told them nothing that was true. Nevertheless, even though they knew nothing -- or at least nothing that they would have learned by my telling them -- just the fact that they believed they should know everything was extremely inhibiting and anxiety-producing to me. And so it is, I expect, to at least some of the Duggar kids. Regardless of what they know, the atmosphere is one of intrusiveness and disrespect, I'd bet. It's certainly an atmosphere of distrust. Some of the Duggar kids keep sweet and accept this as theologically justified, it seems, but I'd be surprised if they all do, and I'd be surprised if the ostensibly sweet ones don't have some anxieties from it boiling underneath.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Joe Jitsu913]

What if you're a Duggar child and an introvert? I hate crowds and noise. I value my privacy. Imagine how hard it must be to be surrounded by people constantly with cameras in your face.

[Julia]

I wonder how much credence to give to any of the daughters promising to follow in their mother's footsteps. Filial piety and the many spiritual joys of growing up Duggar are pretty much their sole source of income at this point. I don't think anyone is going to pay them to give a talk to a conservative evangelical family convention about the downside of quiverfull parenting and how their poor martyred mother neglected and abused them after their father's perpetual state of narcissistic rut broke her spirit.

[cmr2014]

I don't know -- people raise their children the way that they were raised. Even people who aggresively insist that they will do the exact OPPOSITE of everything that their own parents did often repeat the same patterns. I think that Ben (and Derick) will have an influence, and I hope that there are some changes, but who knows?

[Churchhoney]

What if you're a Duggar child and an introvert? I hate crowds and noise. I value my privacy. Imagine how hard it must be to be surrounded by people constantly with cameras in your face.

 

Horrible. And there's no way they've produced 19 kids and not one introvert. Some of them are probably on edge all the time.

[riverblue22]

Horrible. And there's no way they've produced 19 kids and not one introvert. Some of them are probably on edge all the time.

 

 

Well, I think Jennie is an introvert and as she gets bigger will want less chaos in her life.  She already seems like an unhappy child.  I would like to see her have some opportunity in her life.

[Barb23]

Since when has there been a kiddie swingset out there on the patio?

Maybe they built it so MEchelle can play with all the grandbabies she brags about.

[BitterApple]

I wonder if Jessa regrets her marriage to Bin now that the gravy train has come to a screeching halt. It was always my belief that she got married to get the hell out of the house and Bin being cute and athletic was just icing on the cake. I don't think she really thought long term about how her husband would support her once the show ended. It's only a matter of time before the speaking engagements dwindle, what do they do then?

[Sew Sumi]

She has top billing at that Southern Women's Show stop in Charlotte. What does that pay? Couple thou? I can't see it being more than that, especially given the long list of guests. I doubt all the rest of them are speaking for free. 

[Joe Jitsu913]

She has top billing at that Southern Women's Show stop in Charlotte. What does that pay? Couple thou? I can't see it being more than that, especially given the long list of guests. I doubt all the rest of them are speaking for free.

Isn't that a violation of their entire belief system? Jessa should be at home, barefoot and pregnant, right? Bin should be the one making the money to support his wifey's cheap makeup habit. Isn't that the entire basis of their "religion"?

[Sew Sumi]

Scrubbing toilets won't put all that organic food (regardless of how badly she mixes it together) on the younger Seewald's table. 

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I wonder how much credence to give to any of the daughters promising to follow in their mother's footsteps. Filial piety and the many spiritual joys of growing up Duggar are pretty much their sole source of income at this point. I don't think anyone is going to pay them to give a talk to a conservative evangelical family convention about the downside of quiverfull parenting and how their poor martyred mother neglected and abused them after their father's perpetual state of narcissistic rut broke her spirit.

The conservative evangelical family conventions may not want to hear all about that, but groups like AHA, (mainstream & liberal) women's groups, and the media would LOVE to hear about it. So would magazine and book readers. The first kid to break away from this family and write a tell-all is going to make serious bank and can set themselves up with some sort of job with an organization that works against child abuse or for women's rights. So Duggars....which one of you will be smart enough and brave enough to do it?

In all honesty, I can see one of the Duggar spouses being the first to spill the beans after a marriage goes down hill once the money and fame starts to dwindle, especially as JimBob has more and more kids that get married who needs jobs and houses. My money is on Ben. Eventually JimBob isn't going to be paying Ben enough to keep Jessa in her standard of living and things will crack.

Isn't that a violation of their entire belief system? Jessa should be at home, barefoot and pregnant, right? Bin should be the one making the money to support his wifey's cheap makeup habit. Isn't that the entire basis of their "religion"?

You know they are special snowflakes who get to tell us we should all be following their religion's guidelines (like women not working outside of the home), but they get to break those same rules, as long as it's part of their "ministry." Edited August 1, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Wellfleet]

Isn't that a violation of their entire belief system? Jessa should be at home, barefoot and pregnant, right? Bin should be the one making the money to support his wifey's cheap makeup habit. Isn't that the entire basis of their "religion"?

 

Very true, and yet another example of their hypocrisy. If another family sent the wife out to earn - especially a wife of child-bearing years - it would be very wrong. In their case however, it's perfectly acceptable - because they're the the very special Duggars.

[GeeGolly]

Very true, and yet another example of their hypocrisy. If another family sent the wife out to earn - especially a wife of child-bearing years - it would be very wrong. In their case however, it's perfectly acceptable - because they're the the very special Duggars.

... and they  "do things just a little differently."

[CofCinci]

Isn't that a violation of their entire belief system? Jessa should be at home, barefoot and pregnant, right? Bin should be the one making the money to support his wifey's cheap makeup habit. Isn't that the entire basis of their "religion"?

I wonder if Ben acknowledges that Jessa is the breadwinner in the family. What is the power dynamic like in that little family?

[Churchhoney]

The first kid to break away from this family and write a tell-all is going to make serious bank and can set themselves up with some sort of job with an organization that works against child abuse or for women's rights. So Duggars....which one of you will be smart enough and brave enough to do it?

 

 

I wonder. That person's going to have to be very very brave, or very callous, so I'm not even sure how clear it is that there will be someone in there who'll do it (even though it seems logical that someone will). My friends often say to me -- You ought to write a book about your family. But I could never ever do it unless every single person involved was dead. So I think I know what it would feel like to the author -- and it would be emotionally very tough. Obviously if you were desperate for cash and your family was so famous that your book cash was guaranteed, that would obviously change the equation. And of course they might also have the added motivation of feeling they're doing a service by exposing an entire lifestyle and belief system, not just blasting a couple of rotten, nutso individuals. But even then you're burning a lot of bridges and potentially hurting a lot of people who've already been hurt.

 

In any case, I think it'll be a while. Because the stakes are so high, whoever does it will have had to have moved on quite decisively already before they sign up with the publisher, and at this point there doesn't seem to be much sign that anybody's moved on at all. Someone could do it because they're just so callous that they don't care about the personal consequences. Don't know who that would be -- Josh comes to mind, but I may be misjudging him. Plus, he may end up wanting to depend on JB and others for his livelihood, so he couldn't do it unless he thought a book would set him up for life. I also think it would have to be somebody who had concluded that the whole philosophy and lifestyle had to be brought down -- and among the older ones, nobody gives any sign of rejecting that ... and as far as I can tell, no big-picture skeptical intelligent person has yet emerged who'd even make that logical leap.

 

I think you're right about the in-laws. If a marriage goes south, that person will have way less at stake emotionally and in terms of relationships. .... Maybe that means they should fear Marjorie as a mate for Josiah.  She's written a book already. 

[GEML]

There just isn't as much money here as you think. First, the book has to be good. It's one thing to produce a book for their own fans, but it's another to produce one for those on the outside of that world. That audience is much smaller, and the competition of books is much greater with high profile people who came from far more any abusive or high profile religious situations.

Then you actually have to be a great public speaker. Again, there is a big difference between speaking in front of an audience that wants to love you and one that you need to compete to break into. And few Duggars are real public speaking skills. They've not been allowed to develop them, although they might over time.

I think we are talking $100-200K Max for the first child (higher for a girl, she's prettier) who breaks out. Then rapidly diminishing returns. That's not much when you factor out taxes.

Edited August 1, 2015 by GEML

[Cherrio]

I wonder if Ben acknowledges that Jessa is the breadwinner in the family. What is the power dynamic like in that little family?

I don't think he is capable of that much insight about the present or the future, EXCEPT that his righteous fulfillment parts are being serviced all the time.

[GeeGolly]

As with what Churchhoney says, the older kids seem to share their parents beliefs. As much as Jessa is seen as the outspoken bitch in the family, I also believe she is the most like Jim Bob. 

 

Some might quietly break away, as I believe the Bates girl who is married and lives in FL is doing. I think she is living life as a typical conservative Christian and not a Gothard quiverfull. 

 

I think whoever publicly breaks away will do so more for peace on mind than for financial gain. And if they did it for financial gain, the time would be now, and I don't think Jenny is able to take that on at her age.

[RazzleberryPie]

A true tell all book will never happen. As their lifestyles become wealthier and more distanced from the early blanket trained Gothard isolation days, no doubt some of the younger kids will not be drunk on the Kool-aid and may be more Creasters (celebrate Christmas and Easter, but that's about the extent of their religious beliefs/practices). None of the older kids - let's say Josiah/Joy and up - are going to dare step out from under the Umbrella of Protection (and cash) to tell anything. Anyone younger isn't gong to remember the days of prairie clothes, Josh's molestation troubles, the teeny pre TLC house, poverty, blanket training, basically any interaction with Michelle or JimBob, etc.

 

The older girls aren't going to mess with the brand and any income they get from their existing books and speaking tours, the older boys are duller than dirt, the Howler Boys couldn't piece together a sentence, and the Lost Girls are lost.

 

If any additional books come out, it will be Mothering advice from Jill and Jessa, a mild redemption book from Josh, a courtship/marriage book from a guy's perspective from Josiah, and that's about it. From a marketing standpoint, they really should've created a Little Josie wisdom picture book describing the virtues of wearing leggings under skirts, not licking everything in site, and fighting those horrible abortionists who tried to kill her.

 

In a nutshell, the threat of isolation and hell, combined with the lack of personality and gumption, is all greater than a few thousand dollars from a book deal. There's never going to be a true tell all from the kids. 

[GEML]

I think there is the problem that none of the older children is a great communicator combined with the fact that when going up against people talking about breaking out of Amish backgrounds, Chassidic backgrounds, FLDS backgrounds or devout Muslim households, etc. these stories all become a one week story before the media moves on.