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S01.E10: Call and Response


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I just re-watched the last episode and had a thought. What if in the Preacher universe the reason the people of Annville (and maybe the rest of the world?) are so messed up is because of the absence of god. In this world we know there's a god and we know there's a hell. If god is missing but the devil is still at work, wouldn't that tip humanity over to a darker side? 

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On 2016-08-01 at 1:51 PM, tvsoothesthespirit said:

I thought someone should have pointed out that if God is missing, then he definitely must exist. Wouldn't that give some of the faithful something to hold on to? Also, heaven is really a thing and it has angels in it!  I just didn't see the whole God is missing thing as a precursor to so much despair.

 

I'm guessing they weren't quite in despair, they figured God isn't watching anymore so to hell with it.  Just do whatever immoral thing they can get away with.  Even Chippy and the Indian.  I figured their current lives were pointless and they figured offing themselves without God watching and judging, gives them a free pass to heaven.

Then again, they probably saw how shoddily heaven was being run (with that crappy imposter and no HD - that video of 'God' was pretty Low Def) and figured to hell with it.  Pun intended.

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5 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

That might be an angle the show explores. But recalling Ennis' treatment of God in other projects, a vulgar misery-filled world might be working as intended.

Ha yeah Ennis has no love for religion in any part of him. 

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Wow that was dumb. Why wouldn't the preacher just use the voice to summon god? It might not work, but one would want to verify that. Overall, I'd want to verify what exactly the power of the voice is anyway. 

I guess the entire season was setup for the main three to go out and find god. Which sounds kind of fun, but the preacher strikes me as so incredibly stupid. TV-wise, I get that if you have the ultimate weapon, you need to have some limitations to it because the show would be over in like 45 minutes. But being stupid about it isn't compelling. 

On 8/9/2016 at 11:34 AM, Demig said:

I'm guessing they weren't quite in despair, they figured God isn't watching anymore so to hell with it. 

How do they know god isn't watching though? Why would he have to tell his staff or whatever if he was taking off somewhere for a while? The guy didn't say how long he's been missing.  As others posted, maybe god decided to walk the earth for however long. 

I can get that the preacher thought god 'gave' him genesis. That's a good question to ask. I don't think that's the case, and the only interesting thing that came out of this entire 10 episodes was why genesis chose him. I'm hoping that the preacher comes to this question, but he's been so ridiculously, bafflingly stupid, that developing some critical thinking skills might actually be OOC at this point. 

I think this could have been accomplished in far shorter than 10 episodes. I think 4-6 max.

I did like the question about the dinosaurs though.

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This is a really metaphysical discussion about God's omniscience, then, isn't it?  And wondering about the power of the Genesis-thing.  Without going to the non-sensical, childish "if God can do everything, why can't He make a rock He can't move?" (That is an internal logic contradiction, to be fair.  It is an irrational statement turned into an equally irrational question.)  

ANYway, if Genesis can force anyone to do anything, is God beyond it's power?  Possibly.  I think the show assumes that.

Traditionally, God is a "necessary being" -- outside of time, unchanging, and ubiquitous.  (That God "dropped into Time" as Jesus is really mind blowing.  Kierkegaard called it the Absolute Paradox.)  So, for Him to be subject to the Genesis power would be -- problematic to say the least.  He wouldn't be omniscient.  

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I don't know if the show will go with this interpretation, though I don't see why not, in the comic...

Spoiler

...when god is in heaven he is all powerful and all knowing, but when he leaves heaven he isn't omniscient and is less powerful. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but the comic was less about theological discussion and more about taking the piss out of religion. 

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Shouldn't there be a separate thread for the comic readers?

 

5 hours ago, Captanne said:

ANYway, if Genesis can force anyone to do anything, is God beyond it's power?  Possibly.  I think the show assumes that.

That's speculation. Which might be true, but it's not an assumption. An assumption has to be based on what we've seen from the show. The preacher used his voice to send Eugene to hell. He might not have actually gone there, but we know from the show that this is an actual place. We can assume he's there. 

There's been no indication as to the limitation of the preacher's power. We know there is an actual heaven from the attack from the seraphim and the cowboys. We can assume that whomever appeared in the church was actually from there. 

There's been no evidence laid out in the show that god is beyond the power of genesis. In fact, when the preacher brought it up, the 'god' had no idea what he was talking about, and, was subject to the power of the voice when the preacher asked "where is god?"

What I find the height of stupidity is that if you know this isn't god before you, and you have the power to compel agents of heaven, why don't you just summon god?

It might not work, and that's fine. But you don't even think to use the voice for that? That's just stupid. 

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I'm not saying I assume it -- I think the show assumes it.  Maybe.

The show hasn't been the best at explaining itself.

 

ETA:  Also, if this show is about a preacher and God -- don't we safely assume that "God" is a term for the traditional omniscient, benevolent God of the Old and New Testament?  Otherwise why not make the show about a plumber and his "boss"?  By making it specifically about a Christian member of the clergy, I think we are safe to assume the God involved is the traditional Christian one.  

Quote

"The holy, Catholic, apostolic Roman Church believes and professes that there is one true, living God, the Creator and Lord of heaven and earth. He is almighty, eternal, beyond measure, incomprehensible, and infinite in intellect, will and in every perfection. Since He is one unique spiritual substance, entirely simple and unchangeable, He must be declared really and essentially distinct from the world, perfectly happy in Himself and by his very nature, and inexpressibly exalted over all things that exist or can be conceived other than Himself" (Denzinger 3001).

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=33757

(emphasis mine)

 

*EETA:  Lastly, the "god" who was ignorant of Genesis was revealed to be an imposter because the entire road trip is predicated on the idea that "God is missing" so the angels were impersonating Him.  It is consistent that a random angel would not have known about Genesis, I think.

 

**EEETA:  I'm not defending the show -- God knows.  LOL  I almost gave up on it about 3/4 of the way in and I hardly ever give up on shows I pay for.  But I do find it interesting and I enjoy the setup.  By setup I mean, acting, wardrobe, makeup, locations, dialogue.  I don't particularly enjoy exactly what we're talking about in general about the show -- internal inconsistencies and frustrating inexplicability.  Also, weirdly, this show can get slow.  However, I'm not sure I agree with you on this God point, alone.  Otherwise, I'm sure we're equally frustrated with it.  

Edited by Captanne
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Just because the God of this show is apparently the Judeo-Christian creator doesn't mean that all doctrine about his omnipotence, omniscience, and omni-benevolence is correct. In fact, with this being an adaptation of a Garth Ennis work my blanket assumption would be that its God is fallible and not particularly kind or good. Might still be beyond Genesis' power to affect, though we've been shown that angels clearly are not.

Edited by Bruinsfan
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The show has alluded to what we think is the j-c god and related material isn't necessarily the case. So, that's fine and actually more interesting. It allows for some dramatic license. I just have a problem with the show (seemingly) assuming things. By definition, it can't. It's the show. It's supposed to lay out what *is* with respect to the show universe, and it's up to us to make assumptions based on what we've seen.

Genesis being able commanding god isn't an assumption. It either can or can't based on what TPTBs have decided.

39 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

Might still be beyond Genesis' power to affect, though we've been shown that angels clearly are not.

I can assume it's possible because the preacher commanded the fake god, and it's been shown that he also commanded the cowboys angels too. It's up to the show to lead us to that. My problem is that the question can be answered quite easily by the preacher. He's come to the point where he's asking the fake god where is the real god, when he could have just as easily said: bring god to me, or just commanded god to appear. So, the fake one says, "I can't. I don't know where he is." Or god doesn't appear. Then at least you figured out something. It seemed like a prime opportunity for the preacher to figure out a lot of intel and he just blew it. 

This is aside that another show/comic about a god that is the j-c pov of god is kind of boring, but that's another discussion entirely. 

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Because we're dealing with a show called "Preacher" about a man in a black suit with a white collar who works a Christian church, I just reckoned we were dealing with the Judeo-Christian God.

I think it's a problem with the show that the understanding coming across is that He might be something else.  I haven't seen anything to show that (He's not been subject to Genesis and, therefore, not omniscient; the Problem of Evil is still a the same problem man has been struggling with since we realized there was a problem; and it's set in a Judeo-Christian construct complete with a church&steeple, an altar with a cross, Hell, and angels.)  

If the show is dealing with a new definition of God, I agree, that would be interesting.  I'm just not sure it means to be.

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Patternrec  Somehow I missed your comic book angle in the post above.  That explains everything.  At least for me.

Also, I agree about your opinion of the comic book storyline if that's the case.

I'm an old comic book reader and grew into graphic novels (Gaiman, "Sandman" to be exact.)  I never read Preacher.

What's interesting is that both ganesh and I have noticed the problem -- and yet the television show seems to think it isn't one that needs addressing.  That's my complaint -- it absolutely does need addressing.

 

PS:  Awesome screen name.  J'approve.

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On 8/3/2016 at 7:17 AM, ghoulina said:

 

It is interesting that Cassidy is now kind of the new Carlos - the third wheel of their little group. And he clearly had a thing for Tulip. So we'll see if any jealousy rears its ugly head, or will this dynamic be totally different. I hope it's the latter, because I love the three of them together. 

At first I was hating the God reveal. I was like, "Really? This is so hokey!" But it being an impostor God was freaking brilliant and hilarious. I loved all the people shouting in the congregation - "What did you do to the dinosaurs???" Bahahahaha

 

But I'm in. I'm allll in. 

I was going to be sooo disappointed if it didn't turn out to be an impostor.  When he made the call my son kept saying, "This is new number.  Who dis?'' while I was for "You've reached moviefone."  Kind of glad we were wrong.  

I was bummed when Cassidy was trying to heal and not on the screen. lol  I haven't read the comics so I kept waiting for the cowboy who visited Ratwater or the preacher who had it in for him to somehow tie into Jesse's family.  Bringing him back from hell to kill the preacher kind of works too, though.

I like how they ominously threw  "Principal's Office" on the screen when young Jesse and Tulip got into trouble.  I can't remember which episode that was in.

I keep thinking the reason Genesis stuck with the preacher is because he has been  on the fence from the beginning.  Perhaps those that exploded were so on-board with God that the evil part made them explode?  Does anyone know if the preacher knows who shot his father?  I don't think I've missed that being revealed so far, but could've missed it.

Edited by kelslamu
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