New Reader Discussion: Outlander and Dragonfly in Amber

[Athena]

This book thread is an active readalong and spoiler free discussion of Book 1 and 2 of the Outlander series by Diana Gabaldon. Intended to be used primarily by new readers who have seen the first two seasons of the show.

While book walkers are not forbidden to post, please know this thread is intended more for new readers of the series. If they have questions, you may answer them only if they ask. Please only answer with relevant info from these books and perhaps the show.

Thank you!

[Daisy]

Thanks Athena!! :) 

For those who want to join in - I know that Avaleigh is on Chapter Eight (and is waiting for me to start, I'm going to start today) if anyone wants to join in we can start now-ish - and catch up to her, and figure out our pacing from there? 

For me personally, I know i'll probably get right up to the end of Dragonfly in Amber (this way I can still post in the Non-Book-reader thread), but not sure. :) 

this is cool! a book club!

[Glade]

I'd like to join in as well--I'm just starting on book 1 now. 

[Avaleigh]

Awesome. Thanks again, Athena. I'm really looking forward to this.

What do you guys think about pacing? I'm flexible as far being fast or taking a more leisurely approach. I'm going to pause until Daisy catches up, but I was thinking of maybe commenting on the first chapter or two and maybe discussion can be two chapters at a time or so once we're all closer to being in the same place. Or is that too slow? I'm up for anything and am not sure what's typical for something like this. 

This will definitely make the wait in between seasons a lot of fun. 

[Glade]

Two chapters at a time sounds reasonable.  I'm flexible about the pace. 

I just finished chapter 1.  I did get a little frustrated with Claire's flippant dismissal of Scottish history and BJR at the beginning.  But it was very interesting learning about Claire's childhood, and that she has a living relative!  I imagine her Uncle Lamb would be interested to hear about Claire's journey after she returns; I wonder if we'll ever meet him?  Claire actually buys the vases she only gazes at in the show.  I was amused by the anecdote where Claire dropped the teapot, and I enjoy seeing more fleshed out side characters.  The mention of human sacrifice and of course the encounter with Jamie's ghost both brought me back to the S2 finale. 

Moving onto chapter 2, I guess we won't meet Uncle Lamb after all, since we now learn he actually died in the war despite Claire's description of him as a 'living' relative.  I really enjoyed the exposition on Craig Ne Dune and descriptions of Claire and Frank visiting stonehenge, though I see why it and the scenes explaining how Claire got to know Scottish herbs weren't in the show.  Their boatride over Loch Ness and the endless warnings Claire receives about how violent and treacherous Scottish history serve as really effective foreshadowing of what's to come, even when screened through Claire's sarcastic wit. 

I thought Frank's rapid dismissal of adoption was really tactless in making no deference to the fact that Claire was an orphan herself.  Their having sex on the hill just below the stones struck me as odd, and not only because it sounds like they'd be in full view of that woman smoking if she decided to leave.  I guess I prefer how the show handled that section.  But I really loved the description of Claire's journey through the stones, and how she related it to a car accident she had been in (perhaps the one where her parents died?)  I'm finding the book a much more enjoyable read then I expected, there are so many great little moments scattered in. 

What did you two think of the opening chapters? 

Edited July 10, 2016 by Glade

[Avaleigh]

Yay, off we go!

General thoughts:

One thing I will say is that I wasn't really looking forward to the early chapters as much and am mainly interested in the eighteenth century storyline, but I have to admit to being pleasantly surprised that the opening sucked me right in. I like Frank a little more than I expected or at least more than I remember liking him during my initial (and only) watch of season 1. I didn't dislike him or anything, but I find him to be sort of endearing and can see why Claire is fond of him in her own way. 

Chapter 1 thoughts: Mrs. Baird fussing over Claire's appearance sort of made me think of Mrs. Fitz always being conscious of Claire's appearance. Regarding Frank talking about BJR, if they mentioned it on the show I can't recall but I'm just now realizing that he's a second son and not the eldest. I don't know why I thought he was the eldest Randall but it appears that there's some older brother that we haven't met before and I'm curious to know if we'll ever meet him since we ended up meeting the younger brother on the show. I wonder if he's more like Jack or more like his youngest brother? 

I LOVE that Uncle Lamb didn't force her to go to boarding school. After losing her parents, I can totally see how boarding school would feel like another horrible blow. 

Frank talking about the "ritual sacrifice" totally made me think of Geillis in the finale. 

I'm totally confused about Jamie's "ghost". If he's able to come forward then why didn't he do it after he survived Culloden? Presumably he came back too early right and that's why he looks so unhappy? I hope this is explained at some point. I'm still bummed that they have to suffer a twenty year gap of being apart.

I'm not convinced that Frank didn't cheat on Claire during the time they were apart during the war. His accusations and saying that it would be understandable almost makes me think he feels that way because he succumbed to some kind of temptation and thinks that his behavior was understandable. I'm not saying that's what happened it just crossed my mind. I'm glad that Claire was annoyed with him here. 

One thing I've been curious about is if Craigh Na Dun is the only circle of stones in this series that has that power. I'm assuming so but I wonder. 

It's kind of funny that Frank has these strong feelings about adoption but based on the finale, Brianna seems to have adored him so I guess he got over that. I agree with you Glade that his comments were insensitive. 

I was so annoyed by the detail of somebody tossing a sardine can on the ground in such a beautiful place. Grrr. 

The show has done a really good job of this adaptation. A nice amount of the dialogue is lifted without even being changed all that much. 

I think the car accident she was in was different than the one her parents suffered only because the show depicts her as grown when she was in that accident. I'm curious as to what kind of people her parents were and what the circumstances of the accident were but I get the impression that we aren't going to get those details. 

[Glade]

Avaleigh, I was also surprised by hearing that BJR wasn't the eldest brother!  There's definitely no mention of it on the show.  It sounds like the older brother inherited the entire family estate/fortune and wasn't bothered about what became of his siblings.  But maybe he will show an interest in Mary's child in his old age?  

ITA about Uncle Lamb, that was so cool of him. 

I couldn't believe that Frank honestly seemed to consider eating sardines out of an already opened can that he found lying in the bushes; the fact that he decided to re-litter it made it that much worse.  Maybe some day when it's old and rusted they'll find it again and finally dispose of it properly. 

You're probably right about the car accident Claire remembers at the stones; she was in the passenger seat and only mentions one other person in the car (the driver) so it doesn't sound like a young child out with her parents.  I'd love to see flashbacks to her parents some day, but it does seem unlikely if Claire is the narrator and she can't remember much about them since they died when she was 5.  

[ScotchnSoda]

Hello Daisy, Glade and Avaleigh. I discovered the show and raced thru the book during the mid-season break. But, I didn't have anyone to share the experience with. I hope it is OK to follow along with you. Just finished reviewing Chapters 1 & 2. Loved reading your comments as the details unfolded. As for me, I discovering little details that may have connection to the future. This time around, I noticed that On last pg, Chap 2, Claire emerges thru the stones and " crawled toward a stand of oak saplings . . . to steady (herself)".  Just for fun, I wonder if in some future reference to Craigh na Dun, those saplings are giant oak trees ?  

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, you guys are making me nostalgic! I read the entire series last summer and now here's summer again... . I might have to read along with y'all, just for the fun of it. I'll be quiet though and not spoil ya! ;)

[Avaleigh]

Glade , going back to a point that you made earlier about Claire being rather flippant about the Scottish history and Frank's interest in it, it's interesting how much of what he told her she's suddenly able to remember once it's in her interest to do so. 

I look at Frank's enthusiasm about researching the past and wonder how he would have fared if he'd been the one transported back through the stones. Imagine him coming face to face with BJR. I wonder what that would have been like? I also wonder if Frank would have been as capable of surviving as Claire. I can't help but think that if he did manage to live that he'd somehow end up in the British army. 

It's sad too that show Claire is unable to share that portion of her life with Frank because, under different circumstances, he would have been incredibly fascinated. He was a guy who would freak out in an almost boyish like happiness over a single historical document. If things had been different, Claire could have shared so many things that would have fascinated him.

[Daisy]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

Glade , going back to a point that you made earlier about Claire being rather flippant about the Scottish history and Frank's interest in it, it's interesting how much of what he told her she's suddenly able to remember once it's in her interest to do so. 

I look at Frank's enthusiasm about researching the past and wonder how he would have fared if he'd been the one transported back through the stones. Imagine him coming face to face with BJR. I wonder what that would have been like? I also wonder if Frank would have been as capable of surviving as Claire. I can't help but think that if he did manage to live that he'd somehow end up in the British army. 

It's sad too that show Claire is unable to share that portion of her life with Frank because, under different circumstances, he would have been incredibly fascinated. He was a guy who would freak out in an almost boyish like happiness over a single historical document. If things had been different, Claire could have shared so many things that would have fascinated him.

I agree. like talk about the biggest ironies, eh?
(on Diana's website she has a little bet saying read the first 3 pages, if you can't pick it up again, she'll give you a dollar. well i'm a dollar short! I can't stop reading! I'm on chapter four already!). 

I too like everyone, was truly amazed how flip and bored Claire was in re: to history. I don't even really get this feeling from the show,  but here it was like. "can we DO something more FUN now please?" with her. That was a surprise. Frank is such a nerd (laugh) i like him. I did :( when he's all "I don't want to adopt a child, i want OUR natural baby." [the irony of that eh?] The Build Up to the stones is really good. 

To your earlier point - The Ghost. This is going to bug the hell out of me. We only see him like twice. Once during the Premier, and I can't remember if it was back when we came back from Season 1 hiatus. There is the buzzing  that's been established  and we know now (from the show) that Jamie can't hear the buzzing. So what the eff is the Ghost? [not asking i'm sure the book will get to it]. 

in the Scottish parts... (I know I'm ahead). I don't like the Scottish dialect actually written out. I thought i would but I don't. i think i would have liked it better to actually imagine the Scots in my head if this makes sense. 

1 hour ago, ScotchnSoda said:

Hello Daisy, Glade and Avaleigh. I discovered the show and raced thru the book during the mid-season break. But, I didn't have anyone to share the experience with. I hope it is OK to follow along with you. Just finished reviewing Chapters 1 & 2. Loved reading your comments as the details unfolded. As for me, I discovering little details that may have connection to the future. This time around, I noticed that On last pg, Chap 2, Claire emerges thru the stones and " crawled toward a stand of oak saplings . . . to steady (herself)".  Just for fun, I wonder if in some future reference to Craigh na Dun, those saplings are giant oak trees ?  

Hi! Of course!. ooho that's a good catch. i bet!

[Glade]

Avaleigh and Daisy, I also agree about the irony of history ultimately tearing Frank and Claire apart--Frank even burns Claire's dress despite it being a 'valuable historical artifact.'  One would have to hope that if he went back in time he'd be as turned off as Claire was by the racism of the british army towards the Scottish at the time.  But your suggestion reminds of another time-travel book, Kindred, where the husband does go back in time but that storyline never gets any development at all (I wasn't a fan.) 

[Glade]

Reading chapter 3 and 4, much of the surrounding forest seems to be made of up young saplings, though it sounds like the 1948 version was more barren/deforested.  BJR has a cousin named Frank (Randall?) and now that I know about her uncle, Claire using Beecham/Beuchamp feels more significant.   I was very confused at one point, as I could have sworn in the tv show it was Angus who had saved Claire from that first encounter with BJR, not Murtaugh who I thought didn't show up at all in the show until much later.  But after checking, I see I was wrong, they just weren't distinguishable enough for me as characters that early in the tv show. 

Interesting that Jaime spent four months in a monastery by the coast (where Dougal's wife lives?) where unfortunately he was tortured for cursing.  I guess Jaime moved around a lot while he was hiding from the redcoats.   Similarly to Daisy, I was disappointed that DG didn't even try to write down any Gaelic (with footnote translations or not) but just has Claire say "they said something in Gaelic."  Maybe that will change over time since Claire does learn some rudimentary form of the language. 

[Avaleigh]

General thoughts and comments: I'll admit that I actually do like the Scottish dialogue being written out because it helps me hear it right it my head. I feel like I wouldn't be as conscious of the accents and I'd slip back into a non-Scottish accent for the characters who have it, so for me it works. I'll admit though that it took some getting used to. Now I kind of love it. 

I will again commend the show for closely following the books. They really did a good job adapting this and it's fun for me to compare it to something like the GoT adaptation. Both adaptations have their challenges but I think a big difference is that Outlander gives itself more time to tell its story and that's really helpful. 

Chapter 3 thoughts: I really like how we're just thrown into the action right away. I also like how Claire doesn't just instantly accept what's happened and is pulling and grasping at any possible explanation other than TIME TRAVEL because I'd be the same way. Like, musket ball wth? Also, the way that she doesn't see any city lights. Those are little details I like because it really helps me visualize how different and unsettling it would be to see sign after sign that she's no longer in her world. 

BJR is so creepy right from the jump. The way he calls her "Chuckie". I wonder if he would have thought that Frank was some bastard relation or something if Frank had been the one to travel back. 

Dougal seems like he's younger than his show counterpart. I can't help but find it gratifying that he puts his foot down when it comes to rape given the frequency of rape on this show. Weird that Claire asks them what they mean by the term 'wet nurse'. Surely she's heard of that before. 

Jamie and Claire have been together for a few minutes and she's already giving him the clothes off of her back. I love how giving and courteous they are to each other so early in their relationship. The way he wants to cover her and keep her warm. Even something silly like taking the blame for Claire's growling stomach--I shamelessly admit to thinking that they're already super cute with each other.

I will say that considering the uncertainty of her situation, it's a little hard to believe that Claire would just talk to these guys any way she pleases. I'd probably be a little more wary. 

Chapter 4 thoughts:

I love Mrs. Fitz and what a warm relationship she has with everyone. 

I love what a fighter Jenny is. 

I'm surprised to learn that Claire apparently slept with more than one man prior to Frank considering she was an unmarried upper class woman in the 1930s. It isn't unbelievable, just surprising. 

How frustrating and sad to be going through the emotional ordeal that Claire is going through and knowing that it's pointless to explain the truth. She must feel so alone even with Jamie offering her comfort. They definitely seem like they're already attracted to each other on some level.

What must Frank be thinking? I wonder how much time has passed on his end..

[Daisy]

I agree Avaleigh. it is very cute how Jamie seems to gain a  tendre for Claire right off the bat, with the flirting and sort of taking care of her. (I had to laugh when he called her a feisty bitch, because in my head I didn't take it to be offensive). Dougal was firm but fair , so I am curious if show Dougal decided to be more gruff.  I am surprised that Claire didn't know what a net nurse is. I mean, that's a "really Claire? really?"

I was the same way. my thought wouldn't be "Oh look I fell into time." it would be. oh crap, I fell into some kind of movie set. (though I think i would have tried to see if i could catch a glimpse of the actor of the day.). What is a "chuckie?"i am curious. I guess whore/slut? 

(I just started-ish chapter 4. but I would think w/claire's upbringing - i think she is more "boy/independent" than woman in this time period, so her not being a virgin, wouldn't have surprised me). 

i should put down the knitting and read more. 
 

[Glade]

Good points Avaleigh and Daisy.  I was also really creeped out and wonder if BJR sarcastically called all of his victims 'Chuckie' (a term of endearment during the period I see, though it makes me think of 80's horror films.)  The atmospheric details of the stars and even lack of plumbing/sanitation were perfect illustrations of Claire's cognitive dissonance at her new surroundings.

I took the 'what do you mean wet nurse" comment just to mean that she can't comprehend they haven't heard of a medical nurse, not that she was completely unfamiliar with what a wet nurse was.  But maybe that's just because it became a running gag on the show for awhile. 

Frank and Claire seemed a bit closer together in the book then at the beginning of the show, but still those 6 years apart seems to have introduced a great deal of doubt into Frank's mind.  Maybe imagining that Claire ran away with the ghost he saw would be more comfortable then imagining she's dead like all the other people he must have seen die during the war.  

[Daisy]

9 hours ago, Glade said:

Good points Avaleigh and Daisy.  I was also really creeped out and wonder if BJR sarcastically called all of his victims 'Chuckie' (a term of endearment during the period I see, though it makes me think of 80's horror films.)  The atmospheric details of the stars and even lack of plumbing/sanitation were perfect illustrations of Claire's cognitive dissonance at her new surroundings.

I took the 'what do you mean wet nurse" comment just to mean that she can't comprehend they haven't heard of a medical nurse, not that she was completely unfamiliar with what a wet nurse was.  But maybe that's just because it became a running gag on the show for awhile. 

Frank and Claire seemed a bit closer together in the book then at the beginning of the show, but still those 6 years apart seems to have introduced a great deal of doubt into Frank's mind.  Maybe imagining that Claire ran away with the ghost he saw would be more comfortable then imagining she's dead like all the other people he must have seen die during the war.  

The part of me that is team cynic - is wondering why Frank pushed for the "hey, did you have a lover?" makes me wonder if he had one. Like I know (or i seem to remember) that the show never really touched on this. But it's sort of laying the ground work for why Claire ultimately falls for Jamie  - and hard. not only is it 3-6 years separated from Frank again, she's also 200 years away from Frank without knowing if she can get back. 

I think of the Doctor Who episode "Blink" in this case. That woman gets touched by the Weeping Angel and she has a boyfriend, she has a life, but she has zero idea if she can get back. So she starts a new life. As much as I am team "married" almost all the time, Claire basically "knows" Frank as much as she "knows" Jamie. And it really seems (in the chapter we're first introduced) - she's "close" to him right off the bat. 

I am really zooming along. I'm nearly at chapter 8 already - then I'll wait with Avaleigh, for everyone else, then we can discuss how we want to take this. (2 chapters at a time - pause, discuss, 2 more chapters?) 

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Daisy said:

The part of me that is team cynic - is wondering why Frank pushed for the "hey, did you have a lover?" makes me wonder if he had one. Like I know (or i seem to remember) that the show never really touched on this. But it's sort of laying the ground work for why Claire ultimately falls for Jamie  - and hard. not only is it 3-6 years separated from Frank again, she's also 200 years away from Frank without knowing if she can get back. 

I'll reserve my thoughts on Claire falling for Jamie for later, but I've always thought, as Claire initially thought, Frank brings up the subject because he himself was unfaithful and feeling guilty about it. It's interesting how little time Frank and Claire really had as a married couple before Claire falls through the stones, even though they were married for quite some time. They really were different people by the end of the war and makes me wonder if they would've survived as a couple if Claire hadn't fallen through the stones? 

[Daisy]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'll reserve my thoughts on Claire falling for Jamie for later, but I've always thought, as Claire initially thought, Frank brings up the subject because he himself was unfaithful and feeling guilty about it. It's interesting how little time Frank and Claire really had as a married couple before Claire falls through the stones, even though they were married for quite some time. They really were different people by the end of the war and makes me wonder if they would've survived as a couple if Claire hadn't fallen through the stones? 

That is something to keep note of. like they are close and have sexual chemistry, but they are also so far apart. the woman can't even be interested in the things he is LOL

[Glade]

I concur, Daisy and DittyDotDot.  If Claire hadn't gone back through the stones, it seems clear that Frank and Claire would have faced some huge challenges.  The question of past indiscretions on his part, his inability to have children and unwillingness to adopt, and Claire's boredom at stepping back into the role of the wife of an Oxford fellow would very likely have led to them both deciding they wanted different things in life after all.  The displacement caused by the war absolutely created the unique circumstances that caused Claire to adapt so well to her new environment and connect with Jaimie on such a deep level.

[Avaleigh]

6 hours ago, Daisy said:

The part of me that is team cynic - is wondering why Frank pushed for the "hey, did you have a lover?" makes me wonder if he had one. Like I know (or i seem to remember) that the show never really touched on this. But it's sort of laying the ground work for why Claire ultimately falls for Jamie  - and hard. not only is it 3-6 years separated from Frank again, she's also 200 years away from Frank without knowing if she can get back. 

I think of the Doctor Who episode "Blink" in this case. That woman gets touched by the Weeping Angel and she has a boyfriend, she has a life, but she has zero idea if she can get back. So she starts a new life. As much as I am team "married" almost all the time, Claire basically "knows" Frank as much as she "knows" Jamie. And it really seems (in the chapter we're first introduced) - she's "close" to him right off the bat. 

I am really zooming along. I'm nearly at chapter 8 already - then I'll wait with Avaleigh, for everyone else, then we can discuss how we want to take this. (2 chapters at a time - pause, discuss, 2 more chapters?) 

That's how I took it too. I felt like Frank was testing the waters and was basically saying that it would be understandable if she cheated because he did too. 

I'm inclined to agree too that their marriage would have been rocky if she hadn't fallen through the stones. They aren't interested in the same things and his unwillingness to adopt would likely cause some serious resentment. I agree too that it's like that Claire would get bored after awhile. 

There's something about Jaime that has already drawn her to him. Something unspoken. She feels safe with him very quickly considering how unusual the circumstances are.

Chapter 5 thoughts:

I thought it was weird on the show that Mrs. Fitz is so easily able to dress Claire in clothes and shoes that seem to fit perfectly but just went with it. I have similar feelings of disbelief here especially with her just letting a stranger borrow jewelry but am again, just going with it. 

I like the description of Colum's room and I like that Claire is still looking for some solid proof that she really has traveled back in time. I totally understand and think it makes sense that it would take something like seeing the date to really make it officially sink in and even then I'm sure I'd think I'd lost my mind on some level. 

Chapter 6 thoughts:

I'm pretty sure that we don't meet either of Dougal's daughters on the show, right? I'm curious to know who his wife is/was because I don't recall even getting a mention of her on the show and I sort of wondered why he didn't have any official children of his own. 

I'll admit that I like the show having Geillis being present for this court session to translate for Claire. 

With all of the emphasis on Claire's Englishness I'm curious to know if there's ever going to be a comment about her accent changing. I can see how it might not but I can also see how it would especially once she ends up truly becoming one of them for all intents and purposes. I know her accent hasn't changed on the show but I can see her picking up phrases and using them here and there sort of like her picking up that Roosevelt Christ expression. 

I like how Claire is actually learning a little from Mrs. Fitz too and that it isn't totally one sided. I also laughed at Claire thinking of Mrs. Fitz's helpers as her 'minions'. 

 I would have been as wrong as can be on the pronunciation of Laoghaire's name if I hadn't seen the show. 

I guess Claire is already pretty interested in Jamie whether she realizes it or not, if she's forgetting to follow up on medical duties.

She doesn't think about Frank as much as I might have expected and this is further proof to me that their love isn't as strong as Jamie and Claire's will be. I can't imagine Claire not thinking about Jamie all the time once she travels back. Maybe she is able to put him out of her head but I find it hard to believe. 

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm pretty sure that we don't meet either of Dougal's daughters on the show, right? I'm curious to know who his wife is/was because I don't recall even getting a mention of her on the show and I sort of wondered why he didn't have any official children of his own.

I don't think we ever saw her, but she is mentioned in S1. I don't remember which episode it is off the top of my head, but she dies and Dougal has an over-the-top breakdown. It's around the same time Geillis poisons her husband.

[ulkis]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think we ever saw her, but she is mentioned in S1. I don't remember which episode it is off the top of my head, but she dies and Dougal has an over-the-top breakdown. It's around the same time Geillis poisons her husband.

I think it's episode 10, because episode the third episode of the second half was definitely the witch trial.

[Glade]

Reading chapter five, I had forgotten the irony of Claire's lie about having to get home to France at this point in the story, given how out of place she felt upon arriving there in season 2.  I absolutely love the birds in their giant cage with potted trees that Colum has in his office.   Interesting that Colum knows who BJR is.  I imagine Murtaugh does too by now, and if he realized that's who he was protecting Claire from in the woods, perhaps he wouldn't have left him alive.  Claire not fitting into any social roles of the time (whether it be as a proper English Lady or a Scottish wife) would make her very vulnerable to someone like BJR who seeks to abuse his power over anyone he can.   

Mrs Fitzgibbons is so great, and I do like that all of her knowledge isn't just portrayed as horrifying and useless (like Mary's arsenic.)  I liked the description of her herb garden in the protected courtyard of the castle.  Similarly, the story of Jamie's grass-eating was amusing, though chewing and spitting out the fiber would have been the way to go.  Castle Leoch seem to has no shortage of resources, whether it be food or spare dresses for Claire, which is good. 

I was also interested in hearing about Dougal's redheaded daughters.  I guess he had no 'legitimate' son of his own, which is why Hamish is such a point of conflict between the brothers.

I'm sure Claire's accent would change a bit over time, especially if she was using new slang words that she had learned since arriving, or just wanted to fit in as Scottish in some emergency.

Claire had obviously learned to live without Frank just fine over that six year period, but Jaimie gives her something very different.

[Daisy]

hehe now I am on pause waiting for everyone to catch up. (Sorry Avaleigh for making you wait! :) man when I reached chapter eight i went, oh pooop). 

We didn't know about the daughters in the show. and I do have to say - Book Dougal is nice and sweet (so far) where Show Dougal was this grizzly ole bear who was cranky and sarcastic. She didn't mention what Colum's disease is (or if they did I must have glazed over it, so i forget what it is. I don't know why my mind wants to settle on Tourette's. which is 1000% wrong. But I know it starts with a T)? maybe?

I also don't remember Jamie's story of why his hair was shaved, being conked out and ending up in France. (if the show touched on this - i am in 100 percent in need of a re-watch, clearly. I do think this show is like GoT in that sense. Watch once, and "fall in love" watch again and pick up everything - and now it's being enhanced by the book). 

Claire trying to find tangible proof was heartbreaking - yet still 100 percent logical. like I'd imagine once I saw the castle and no lights, I'd be like "okay." but Claire was determined to find the date written down or something. 

I am finding it intriguing that Claire keeps finding ways to talk to Jaimie (i know part of it is legitimate because of the wounds she's treating) but she is talking with Jamie, she's actually paying attention and interacting. She's not bored. But then at the same time, Jamie's not talking about history, so...

 

(also while I sometimes believe I was born out of time and I'd love to live in "Olden Times" knowing you could die not from being sick, but by having a moron healer, kinda scares me). 

[Cubisa]

Toulouse-Lautrec syndrome - where the major bones in the legs literally crumble.

[Avaleigh]

I don't mind waiting, Daisy. Are we all basically in the same place now? I'm ready to do chapters seven and eight if you guys are. Do we want to continue with two chapters at a time or maybe bump it up a bit? 

I'm unsure of how I want to approach my rewatch of the show. I clearly missed a lot in every season and there are so many things that I didn't catch. I don't know if it's better to watch as I'm reading or to just save it until book one is finished. I am curious to see what little details I pick up on the second time around. 

I wonder if Claire ever remembers the "ghost" that Frank saw and how she reacts to that if so. 

Yeah, there are some cool things about living in the past (mainly the fashion and certain social activities and the like) but for the most part I'm happy to live in modern times. Not just for obvious reasons like medical treatment, but sanitation in general. I don't know if I could deal with not having modern plumbing. I also think you'd pretty much have to be in the top 2% to really enjoy much of life. Claire lucked out in that she was automatically treated as a gentle lady and not some common wet nurse or 'whore'. 

I like that Claire has already begun to carve out a life for herself and find her place in the castle. She isn't moping or constantly crying or overwhelmed by how extraordinary her circumstances are. She's finding ways to be useful, she's listening, she's even starting to make friends and enjoy herself, and I don't know that the average person would be as strong as she is based on everything that she's dealing with. I made comments in the past about thinking that she was a bit of a Mary Sue, but so far I really like her and admire her ability to adapt. I think at one point I even called her a less annoying and self righteous version of Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman, but I've changed my mind on that and already feel that she's a much stronger and more interesting character than Michaela Quinn.

Yikes, what a horrible illness. I'm surprised that Colum walks at all. Is it better or worse for people who have it to force themselves to walk and stand? It pains me to even think about it. 

[Glade]

I've read up through chapter 8 as well, so I guess we're all at the same place.  I'm not really into reading only two chapters at a time, I want to keep going.  4-6 chapters would be much better for me.  What do you two think? 

[Daisy]

9 hours ago, Cubisa said:

Toulouse-Lautrec syndrome - where the major bones in the legs literally crumble.

thanks so much. at least I had the "T" right. (facepalm). 
that is so sad. 

[Daisy]

6 hours ago, Glade said:

I've read up through chapter 8 as well, so I guess we're all at the same place.  I'm not really into reading only two chapters at a time, I want to keep going.  4-6 chapters would be much better for me.  What do you two think? 

Well I am a fast read - so I don't mind reading (what I am forgetting to do ;) is make notes in my head to discuss it with you, I keep falling into the story!. but I am with you, I don't mind ramping it up include more chapters. If we look at how the book is split up, if we finish Part Two as it is, that's chapters 8 through 10.  this should give everyone a chance to catch up to us  - and I don't mind waiting for those just finding us to catch up. 

Moving forward this is how the books split up. 
Part Three has 13 chapters. 
Part Four has 2 chapters
Part Five has 8 chapters
Part Six has 1 chapter
Part Seven has 7 chapters. 

I just quickly looked through it on my kindle. part six is a short chapter (I had thought it would be long). so this is how I propose we do the splits. 
. We finish chapter two this week-end(ish). discuss. then break it down like this.

Chapters 11 to 16
Chapters 17 to 23
Chapters 24 to 29
Chapters 29 to 34 
Chapters 35 to 38
Chapters 39 to 41

those are big decent chunks and i think it will work for us speedy Eddies. (I know for me, i am basically "blegughing" for lack of a better word, (Scottish Sound! ;) ) what i am reading, and not really remembering what specific chapter it is but i figure as long as we're discussing it it shouldn't matter if the specific thought is in Chapter so and so or such and such, eh?

[Glade]

1 hour ago, Daisy said:

We finish chapter two this week-end(ish). discuss. then break it down like this.

Chapters 11 to 16
Chapters 17 to 23
Chapters 24 to 29
Chapters 29 to 34 
Chapters 35 to 38
Chapters 39 to 41

those are big decent chunks and i think it will work for us speedy Eddies. (I know for me, i am basically "blegughing" for lack of a better word, (Scottish Sound! ;) ) what i am reading, and not really remembering what specific chapter it is but i figure as long as we're discussing it it shouldn't matter if the specific thought is in Chapter so and so or such and such, eh?

Daisy, your schedule sounds great to me!  And familiar, as that's the sort of pace that all of my literature courses at college took on (I was an English major.)  And yeah, I think it's ok to not further differentiate between each chapter in the block as long as we haven't gone ahead.  I'm reading from an ebook so it's usually easier to pause and type out notes then if I was caught up in a physical book.  

[Avaleigh]

Works for me. Is it okay if I post about seven through ten at some point today? 

I've been making notes chapter by chapter so that's why I organize my posts that way. 

I have a feeling that I'm not going to be able to resist the temptation to read the third book since I'm really enjoying what I've read so far. How did I not know about these books prior to the show? 

[Daisy]

11 hours ago, Glade said:

Daisy, your schedule sounds great to me!  And familiar, as that's the sort of pace that all of my literature courses at college took on (I was an English major.)  And yeah, I think it's ok to not further differentiate between each chapter in the block as long as we haven't gone ahead.  I'm reading from an ebook so it's usually easier to pause and type out notes then if I was caught up in a physical book.  

I was an English major too! hehe i guess i remembered something along the way ;)

 

3 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Works for me. Is it okay if I post about seven through ten at some point today? 

I've been making notes chapter by chapter so that's why I organize my posts that way. 

I have a feeling that I'm not going to be able to resist the temptation to read the third book since I'm really enjoying what I've read so far. How did I not know about these books prior to the show? 

 

go ahead! I am going to tuck in with the book later on and probably power through it. 
I don't know if I am going to be able to resist the temptation. I do know for me personally, I like being Unsullied - for the only reason is that I know that when i read something and then watch the movie - i end up not liking the movie. when I watch the show first then read the book, I can separate the two. + i like the no-book thread gang a lot hehe i'll honesty have to see. 

[Avaleigh]

Chapter 7 thoughts: 

I wonder how the Beatons became famous for healing if David is an example of one of their best. 

I thought Claire's thoughts on her travel through the stones was interesting and I'm glad that she's still wondering what the hell happened there because I would be too. The thought that she might have chosen somehow and that she felt the sensation that she'd fought away from something was curious to me and I hope there's something more of an explanation about what's going on here. 

I don't think they addressed Jaime having short hair on the show but I'm not sure. The period with the monks sounds like it was the opposite of a fun time. 

So Alec knew Jamie's father. Funny that Jamie's father has a nickname like BJR. 

Everyone seems to suspect Jamie's interest in Laoghaire except for Jamie himself. I almost feel like she was included just so it wouldn't make the romance with Jamie too easy. 

Chapter 8 thoughts:

It didn't take long for Claire to question Hamish's paternity. I can't recall if it's an open secret or if most people don't know. 

Tipsy!Claire is pretty amusing. Colum's a sharp one for sure. I like that she tips off his spidey sense. I'm curious to try Rhenish wine now. 

Poor third wheel Laoghaire. I guess she seems boring and silly in comparison to Claire. I can't blame Jamie for being more interested in the Sassenach. Still, I felt for her when he handed her Claire's empty goblet. Just in case Laoghaire wasn't clear where she stands in the pecking order that pretty much spelled it out lol. 

If a person travels two hundred years or so, I wonder why Gillian seems to have made it back prior to 1743 and not somewhere closer to 1768. I guess it's because she did more research and found a way to get to a specific year she wanted. I hope we learn more abut this. 

I like that the stories give Claire hope that she can come back. 

I appreciate getting Jamie's thoughts on why he's uncomfortable having other people see his back and why it feels different with Claire. 

Chapter 9 thoughts:

Oooh, Geillis! She has a a streak in her that's weirdly unfeeling. 

One more reason I'm happy to live in modern times since I can't imagine getting used to the idea of watching twelve year old kids lose their hands and mutilating their ears because an angry priest deems it to be appropriate punishment. 

Every chapter brings Jamie and Claire closer and closer and it's like they manage to learn about each other yet become more mysterious at the same time. 

Chapter 10 thoughts:

I like that part of Claire actually feels bad about leaving in a way and wishes that her circumstances would permit her to be more gracious about their hospitality. She's really connecting with these people already and in a way already has more purpose in this world than in her old world. 

It's sad how rape is seemingly lurking around every corner in this world, even in the castle where safe and protected within reason, Jamie still knows that it isn't really safe.

I liked Jamie's line about Clan Mackenzie having good whisky. I can't recall if they included that on the show but it made me laugh. 

Wow, so she's groped at least three times in one evening. And the 'nice' guy who saves her ends up being a participant. SMH. 

Road trip next! Lucky Claire that Jaime gets to come along. I can't help but fear that she might have been assaulted somewhere during the trip if Jaime hadn't come along based on this chapter alone. Dougal may have saved Claire from rape twice but he seems far from trustworthy. 

[Glade]

I also am unsure if I can resist reading book 3 before next year, though I would prefer to watch the show first without being spoiled.  

I was kind of surprised by this line, early in chapter 7 "Thinking of her efficient treatment of the young man Jamie’s injuries..."  As it seems to back off of the intimacy Claire and Jaimie (and we as readers) have been building via all of their lunch dates. 

Claire's memories of the journey through the stones are very interesting.  She wonders if she had unconsciously chosen this time for some reason.  Was it predestination towards Jaimie, or, ironically, the presence of someone near the stones who she mistook for Frank? Maybe a little bit of both.

I love that Welsh is one of the many languages that Jamie knows. 

I loved Claire's visits the orchards.  We can see that there really is a lot of appeal to her current life; she's able to do medical work again (and a lot better then the previous healer!), help in the garden, have long outdoor lunches with Jaimie, visit the orchards and fill up on cherries and apricots, process herbs to make tinctures with Geillis, go to nightly Welsh concerts...  Despite some show-watchers claiming that Claire is 'stupid' to choose her life in the past because 'it's nothing but rape and violence!' we can see there is so much more to it and she's not bored to death like she was with Frank. 

And I love Geillis, she's such a great character even though one of the first comments she makes is about poisoning her husband...which if there is even the remotest chance that you might one day do, you shouldn't go around joking about it beforehand.

The book says she has 'fair hair,' but I disagree, I still see her as redheaded Lotte Verbeek, 100%!  I wonder for how long Geillis has actually been around at this point?  Her singular focus on meeting her political ends no matter the cost does make her very detached, which likely doubles her suspicions about Claire's behavior.  I love that Jaimie is willing to intervene to save the poor boys ear.

Geillis' rather bold declaration about who Hamish's father was is something I'm really glad she's wrong about.  A 16 year old Jaimie being forced to service Collum's wife and then abandon and forsake the bairn is a pretty horrific thought, though I'm sure Collum wouldn't want the Fraiser genes anyway. It is good to finally know the significance of why Jaimie looked into the camera and said 'Je Suis Priest' on the show. 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Glade

[Avaleigh]

On 7/15/2016 at 7:35 PM, Glade said:

Geillis' rather bold declaration about who Hamish's father was is something I'm really glad she's wrong about.  A 16 year old Jaimie being forced to service Collum's wife and then abandon and forsake the bairn is a pretty horrific thought, though I'm sure Collum wouldn't want the Fraiser genes anyway. It is good to finally know the significance of why Jaimie looked into the camera and said 'Je Suis Priest' on the show. 

I'm glad she's wrong about this too. Jamie seems way too sensitive to be able to handle dealing with that sort of situation. I'm looking forward to seeing how this is further addressed in the books. As for Collum not wanting Fraser genes, I would hope that he wouldn't look down on anyone's genes all things considered. 

I totally hear Lotte Verbeek's voice when I'm reading Geillis. I'd seen her in The Borgias but this is the role I feel like I'll always associate her with. It's just so right. I agree, I don't care if she's supposed to have fair hair. I'm surprised that Geillis doesn't seem interested in Jamie. I wonder what she'd make of Dougal's attraction to Claire. 

Yes, regarding Claire's orchard visit. It made me want to make apricot pies and cherry strudel.

I can see how she's slowly being charmed by this new life. In a way it offers everything she was lacking in her old life.

I wonder what Jamie suspects Claire of hiding. Obviously he knows that she isn't a spy but he knows she's holding something back. 

[Glade]

Avaleigh, you're right, as long as Colum's child doesn't have his syndrome, he should be happy.  And you make a good point, I wonder if Geillis' choice of Dougal was from her historical research or she just showed up and made a survey of her most likely route to power.  I only know the actress from 'The Fault in Our Stars,' but I may seek out some of the films she starred in. 

[Avaleigh]

Chapter 11 thoughts:

I like Ned. I can see why he and Colum get along. They both have inquisitive minds and they both probably wish that they'd been born with more physical strength. I got a chuckle that Ned thinks things were a lot less civil back in Jacob Mackenzie's day because they aren't exactly prim and proper now. 

I like seeing the business of the rent collecting and wondered if any difficulties would arise with one person being upset that one person was only paying with with a certain amount of sheep or whatever. 

Claire's learning to keep her mouth shut at the right time. 

I have an even better understanding of why Jamie would be so angry with Dougal for putting him on display like that. 

Dougal seems to care about what Claire thinks on some level. It isn't just because he's suspicious of her. 

Murtagh is awesome for collecting Jamie's winnings. 

Jamie really is ruthless with his body. It's been through so much and we're only on the first book, Jesus. 

Chapter 12:

Jamie is constantly looking after Claire's safety. I don't know what it says about these guys that men can't be trusted to not rape a woman who's sleeping upstairs. Not only is he looking out for her safety but he cares about her reputation. It's the same character quality that makes him want to protect someone like Laoghaire. 

I loved BJR being all surprised that Claire knows where he's from and Claire claiming that his accent gives him away. Lol, that his parents and tutors wouldn't have appreciated the comment. 

I liked the line about BJR's wig being crooked. I have to say, I think I liked the show's take on this a little bit more. I seem to remember the encounter lasting a lot longer. 

Chapter 13:

Dougal has no time for bullshit but he was surprisingly tender with Claire after her ordeal with BJR. Just one last interrogation and now he's acting more like a protector. At least in the way that he feels he can be one. 

BJR is so fucking sick, I can't even. I wouldn't want to

Chapter 14:

Claire's drinking made me dizzy. I was waiting for her to hurl at any moment. 

I find it amusing that Claire always has somebody who can get her the perfect outfit in the nick of time. 

Since this is a story that involves time travel, I guess I shouldn't roll my eyes too hard at the coincidence of the wedding taking place in the same church where Claire married Frank but come one, really? I love the blood vow part of the ceremony.

Jamie sounds hot. There, I said it. 

Chapter 15:

I was expecting this to be slightly embarrassing but it really just made me like both of their characters more. I love how they really are trying to be honest with each other and I love that they're both making an effort to make it work. 

Poor Murtagh. It doesn't sound like he's ever had sex with a woman who enjoyed it with him. 

Chapter 16:

Dougal a sharp fox for sure. I didn't think of the difficulties it would cause with Jamie in terms of people not liking the idea of him being married to an Englishwoman. 

I love how different Jamie's attitude is about Frank in comparison to Frank's about Jamie. Jamie isn't as insecure, he's willing to allow Claire to have her own feelings, and he cares about her enough to not make it all about him. Jamie is so much more understanding than Frank in general. It really bums me out that she's going to spend the bulk of her younger years with Frank. 

Jamie is so nice to her that he's verging into Gary Stu territory for me. If this guy has any flaws, I'm certainly not aware of them. 

[Glade]

Gowen has such an interesting backstory, which really makes me wonder what he does after Culloden (when I'm sure the Scot's will need legal help!) I hope DG mentions it, there are so many great side characters who will be affected by those events.   You make a good point, Avaleigh, about him and Collum being able to relate to each other. 

It is amusing how often Claire is tripping over and literally falling on top of Jaimie before they have an actual relationship. And you're right, Avaleigh, Jaimie really does put his body through lot.    

The entire scene where Claire meets BJR at the inn was different and greatly expanded upon in the show in the interest of developing the characters and the political climate between the redcoats and Scots.  As I recall on the show Dougal even raced up the stairs and burst into the room when he heard Claire screaming, so this was a bit anticlimactic in comparison.  It was great seeing Claire trip BJR up on his accent, though it just makes him more enraged.  

I like the description of the pool that Dougal takes Claire to.  But in all of Dougal's descriptions of the horrific flogging of Jaimie, he doesn't mention that Jaimie's father showed up and had a fatal heart attack while watching.  I guess that is a show-only element.

I can appreciate why the show skipped the shocking reveal during J/C's wedding, as it doesn't really make any sense at all.   I'm sure Claire's been racking her brain of everything she knew about Scotland/all the times she's been there, so this feels like a total retcon.  If DG/Claire had bothered to mention earlier that she had for some unspecified reason been married at an obscure little catholic church in the Scottish Highlands, then maybe it would be believable.  She passed out immediately upon leaving the church due to drunkeness and hypoglycemia, so maybe she just thought it was the same place where she married Frank?

I was really interested to see Jaimie's recent history so clearly mapped out.  It's disturbing that he isn't even sure that Dougal didn't hit him on the back of the head with an axe (and then, apparently, changed his mind about killing him or just decided that he might be too incapacitated by the injury to ever become laird?)  I'm glad Jaimie has some protection now from being torn to death by his uncles and their kinsman.

I'm also kind of shocked to hear that he was a medical patient suffering from a serious head injury at the abby (a supposed "place of healing") when he was forced to lay naked on a stone floor in freezing temperatures all night for using curse words.  I really hope this isn't the same place they go back to later on when Jaimie needs healing again.   I wonder what the other secrets are that Jaimie isn't ready to tell Claire? 

I liked all the character moments Claire and Jaimie have together, in the woods, by the waterfalls, under the moonlight.  But I have really no interest in reading long sex scenes, so I've started to skim.  I also had to roll my eyes at some of the romance novel cliche's brought into their sex-dialogue. 

[Avaleigh]

13 hours ago, Glade said:

Gowen has such an interesting backstory, which really makes me wonder what he does after Culloden (when I'm sure the Scot's will need legal help!) I hope DG mentions it, there are so many great side characters who will be affected by those events.   You make a good point, Avaleigh, about him and Collum being able to relate to each other. 

It is amusing how often Claire is tripping over and literally falling on top of Jaimie before they have an actual relationship. And you're right, Avaleigh, Jaimie really does put his body through lot.    

The entire scene where Claire meets BJR at the inn was different and greatly expanded upon in the show in the interest of developing the characters and the political climate between the redcoats and Scots.  As I recall on the show Dougal even raced up the stairs and burst into the room when he heard Claire screaming, so this was a bit anticlimactic in comparison.  It was great seeing Claire trip BJR up on his accent, though it just makes him more enraged.  

I like the description of the pool that Dougal takes Claire to.  But in all of Dougal's descriptions of the horrific flogging of Jaimie, he doesn't mention that Jaimie's father showed up and had a fatal heart attack while watching.  I guess that is a show-only element.

I can appreciate why the show skipped the shocking reveal during J/C's wedding, as it doesn't really make any sense at all.   I'm sure Claire's been racking her brain of everything she knew about Scotland/all the times she's been there, so this feels like a total retcon.  If DG/Claire had bothered to mention earlier that she had for some unspecified reason been married at an obscure little catholic church in the Scottish Highlands, then maybe it would be believable.  She passed out immediately upon leaving the church due to drunkeness and hypoglycemia, so maybe she just thought it was the same place where she married Frank?

I was really interested to see Jaimie's recent history so clearly mapped out.  It's disturbing that he isn't even sure that Dougal didn't hit him on the back of the head with an axe (and then, apparently, changed his mind about killing him or just decided that he might be too incapacitated by the injury to ever become laird?)  I'm glad Jaimie has some protection now from being torn to death by his uncles and their kinsman.

I'm also kind of shocked to hear that he was a medical patient suffering from a serious head injury at the abby (a supposed "place of healing") when he was forced to lay naked on a stone floor in freezing temperatures all night for using curse words.  I really hope this isn't the same place they go back to later on when Jaimie needs healing again.   I wonder what the other secrets are that Jaimie isn't ready to tell Claire? 

I liked all the character moments Claire and Jaimie have together, in the woods, by the waterfalls, under the moonlight.  But I have really no interest in reading long sex scenes, so I've started to skim.  I also had to roll my eyes at some of the romance novel cliche's brought into their sex-dialogue. 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the detail about the church was odd. I like your thought that maybe she just thought that it was the same church, but I have a feeling that it really was the same church. A little too cutesy for my taste but not a big criticism for me in the grand scheme of things.

I liked the description of the pool too. I felt like I could taste water. 

Life at that abbey sucked for sure.  

I was wondering about what secrets Jaime is holding back on too.

I was actually expected the sex scenes to be worse to be honest. I was anticipating painful, bodice ripping details and while there were about four times or so that I rolled my eyes, I think I'm sort of enjoying this happyish period for them because I know it won't last. 

[Daisy]

I am so sorry for being quiet. 
life happened. 
if you guys want to moe ahead without me - that is okay.  if the chapters aren't that long i know i'll be able to catch up. 

the one thing I've noticed - Gellis name is Gellie in the book? 

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Daisy said:

the one thing I've noticed - Gellis name is Gellie in the book? 

I had this question too, and I believe I read somewhere (man I wish I could remember where and site my source...ugh, my brain sucks sometimes)...anyway, my understanding is, Gellie is the familiar form of Gellis. It's like calling someone named Jonathan, Johnny.

[Daisy]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I had this question too, and I believe I read somewhere (man I wish I could remember where and site my source...ugh, my brain sucks sometimes)...anyway, my understanding is, Gellie is the familiar form of Gellis. It's like calling someone named Jonathan, Johnny.

thanks. that was driving me nuts. I'm like... is this something editor missed... countless times?

[GHScorpiosRule]

I had the same issue with the name and thought the publisher screwed it up when the buik was converted to Eformat. I was told that it was Claire's way of using it as a nickname-to show they were really good friends.

[DittyDotDot]

41 minutes ago, Daisy said:

thanks. that was driving me nuts. I'm like... is this something editor missed... countless times?

Well, I'm not one to suggest Diana couldn't use a good editor, because she could.

The funny thing about Gellis/Gellie is that I believe she used it to show how fond Claire was becoming of Gellis, but seems to just confuse people more often than not. Sometimes making things clear doesn't make them clear, ya know. ;)

[Glade]

Daisy, thanks for checking in.  Definitely catch up if you can.  I was also confused at first with the alternate spelling/pronunciation of Geillis, but it does make sense.

12 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

 I think I'm sort of enjoying this happyish period for them because I know it won't last. 

That's a good point, their honeymoon as we know is very short. 

[Daisy]

Thoughts on Chapters Eight through Ten. 

• Poor Geordie. I forgot about him - But I think in a sense this is where Dougal for the most part had the most... 'respect' for lack of a beter word for Claire. I think she intrigued him re: fixin' Jamie but to see a man die, without being all emotional about it, makes her a fine Scot wife in sense. 
   
• Dougal kissing Claire (i think in the show, she slaps him or something?). I really get the feeling it wasn't all about him being drunk or levying a punishment. I always got the sense on the show that Dougal was always relatively attracted to Claire even with the Englishness. 
   
• The Gathering was nicely done, (but I think more information of why Jamie even doing it was given on the show). to be fair, i could have missed some nuances, due to quickly catching up [to which, where are we chapter wise please?]

It is weird. in Part Two (the Leoch) chapter, Jamie is very rarely around. like you know Claire is healing him and she'll stop and have a chat, but she is basically fully in her life being the healer (and trying to escape)  I feel that is amped up in the show, that we see "Jamie" more, so we have more of a feel for him. as of now - I can see sort of why he is intriguing to Claire (kinda cute, funny, etc, he's nice to her, like he regards her with no suspicion), but I had a ken of Jamie on the show more so than i have a ken  of him in the books. I expect this will obviously change.  I am pretty sure that the fact he's a Frazier came out a lot sooner than it did now. 

(if it's already out there. i am obviously inhaling the book too much and need to write better notes ;) ). 

Little things that are bothering me. 
the Gellis/Gellie thing - but that was explained, so i'm with it. I am going to go, with the idea that as this is Diana's first book, she didn't get the whole "needing to explain things, ie. I felt so close to Gellis i didn't mind calling her by a more affectionate name." (I guess LOL).  

"hardness" etc. I will have to admit. I do not mind my smut at all i am totally team bodice ripper when it's needed, but i always felt, like. you don't think that in real life. You don't say "Oh, wow. i just felt his hardness between my legs." just say what it is. that's always been a peeve of mine. lol so i figure i'd get it out of the way. 
 

Okay - eleven through sixteen, see you all in a bit!

[Daisy]

Chapter Eleven

It could be just me, but I am thinking we are starting to see our Claire fall more in love with Scotland (or i am). Book Ned seems very much like television Ned, so that's nice. Hearing how Colum's infirmity started was so sad. I suffer from sacrolic joint disorder and it developed after I twisted my pelvis. it's the worst thing to know that one moment you are healthy, the next moment you suffer something normal, and then something serious is discovered. Interesting how Dougal backed up Colum. (I just have a feeling that TV Dougal would have caused an uproar. 
 

the Jacobite theatre  ticked me off in the show and more so in the book. I always wished Jamie would have flat out said, use something else to garner sympathy for the cause. (and his quiet. "for now." really stemmed true, especially when he punched Dougal (hah I had to laugh when Claire was like "get up and say it again", look was the same in any language or time. 
 

hearing/knowing a little bit about Jamie's father and how he taught him to fight was good to know too. No real true thoughts here though in this chapter. 
 

Chapter 12

Oi, do i hate BJR. I feel that this was expanded on more on in the show but the more salient point that really stood out to me was. 
    1: the line. I don't think this line was on the show - but "Madam, I do hope you are not with child. Though if you are you won't be soon." that was chilling. Like it seriously made my mouth drop open, (and this is after seeing two seasons of BJR). and Claire's simple. "your wig is crooked." (ie: Fuck off), was perfect.  (there was no Dougal saving Claire, but maybe that's chapter 13). 
 

I am really curious if all the BJR mishaps (and Claire does mention this in this chapter, and throughout the show) - if this didn't also impact how she sees Frank. Yes. she cares about him, we've seen that), but I am wondering the longer she is in Scotland (and exposed to this tyranny of this bastard) if it didn't really... i don't know i said impact again, but just  - it had to have change it (even if Claire never verbally acknowledges it... does it make sense?)

[Avaleigh]

Chapter 17 thoughts:

I really enjoy all of commentary on nature and the land and animals. I can totally understand why Claire is being seduced by this world. I almost feel like Scotland is its own character in this story and it makes me want to go back one day. 

I like Jamie and Claire connecting on losing their mothers as young children even though it wasn't a long drawn out conversation. Once again, they seem to understand each other perfectly. It's nice that they're willing to talk about almost everything. I'll admit though that I rolled my eyes hard when Jamie said something about wanting to be consumed by the flame that is Claire. 

I'm confused about what the deal is with Hugh Munro. Has he been kicked out of his clan? Doesn't that seem unfair considering what he went through? (What the hell with the using burning oil to convert people. Very disturbing.) Why is it that the clan he belonged to can't find work for him? Why does he have to be condemned to life as a beggar? It seems like he's still capable of doing stuff so why is he being treated this way? He seems so nice I totally felt bad about this and wonder if there's going to be any further clarification. I admit that I would have had to force the smile on my face after being handed that rabbit. Similarly, I wouldn't have been wild about sharing a bottle of ale with a stranger, however kind his intentions. Still, I like that Claire just goes with it and does her best to be polite with it even when she has these sorts of thoughts. 

When Claire mentioned 'the smell' all I could think about is how unhygienic it was to live in times like these and how much cleaner and better smelling the average person today is in comparison. I can totally understand her concerns since I doubt she's bathing in the way she normally was prior her traveling through the stones. All in all though a bit TMI.

Chapter 18:

I'm still on the fence as to how Dougal feels about Claire. I don't mean in a sexual way just in terms of whether or not he wants her there with them or not. Sometimes I think he kind of likes her or at least finds her to be interesting and a little intriguing. 

I liked how the party became alert during Rupert's story and were discreetly going for their weapons. It was cool to see Jamie and Dougal fight for the first time. 

Dougal has a way of taking the piss out of Jamie but I feel like he's fond of his nephew in his own way. 

Ned's certainly tougher than he looks. I can't imagine having a tooth forced back in with only a shot of whiskey to disinfect and give me some relief from the pain.

It makes sense for Claire to be able to learn to defend herself in this world and I'm glad that the men are cool with her learning. 

Is no one seriously every going to ask Claire who the hell this Roosevelt character is that she keeps mentioning in her curses? I'm surprised that Jamie at least isn't curious. 

I like Murtagh but he does seem to have issues when it comes to women. 

Chapter 19:

Not much for this chapter. I will say that Claire didn't seem nearly startled enough by that encounter of the water horse or whatever that thing was. Does Peter think she summoned the thing or something? Why was he asking her for mercy? The way he was looking at her afterwards, it's almost as though he was frightened of her as well. 

Chapter 20: 

When I saw this happen on the show I remember being irritated with Jamie and Claire for thinking that it would be safe to just go off somewhere considering how many incidents there have been whether they're encountering redcoats, raiders, or wild boars, but reading it here it's a little bit more understandable to me why they thought they'd more or less be safe.

My feelings are really torn about Claire going out to seek Frank. In a way I do wish that I'd read the books first because I'm curious to know if I'd be rooting for her to stay or go without knowing what I already know. To me it's obvious that she's running away from a life that makes her happy but I understand why she thinks she needs to go back. I certainly know that if I were in the position that I'd still be trying to go back because not enough time has passed to want to completely sever oneself from the only life they've ever known. A life that was reasonably happy if a bit boring and unsettled. 

Still, as much as I understand her reason for wanting to leave, I feel like she's not totally thinking. I also think she's doing a disservice to Jamie by just abandoning him but at the same time, I can see how she feels there's no other way because there's no convincing way to tell a person that you're a victim of accidental time travel. 

I also feel like part of her is choosing to leave now because Jamie wouldn't let her come with him and she's all pouty about it. She also makes a promise to a guy that she knows perfectly well values promises so I feel like since she sees him as her friend, lover, and husband and someone she trusts, she should at least see if he'd be willing to take her back to Inverness. If he isn't willing then I get finding the opportunity to cut and run whenever she can, but I feel like she's being unfair to him by not saying anything and wish that she'd handled it differently. 

Claire really does have a mixture of good and bad luck in this series. With her, I basically feel like every time something good happens that something bad is lurking around the corner. She's happy that she lucks out in having this opportunity to make it back to the stones. Then she nearly drowns. She's grateful to be saved and then she realizes that she's in the hands of her enemies. 

[DittyDotDot]

I've been eagerly awaiting the thoughts as you to get to these parts of the book...it's hard to talk about things, without talking about things, ya know? ;)

14 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Not much for this chapter. I will say that Claire didn't seem nearly startled enough by that encounter of the water horse or whatever that thing was. Does Peter think she summoned the thing or something? Why was he asking her for mercy? The way he was looking at her afterwards, it's almost as though he was frightened of her as well. 

You're right, Claire was not half as startled as I was when I read it. ;) 

14 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

My feelings are really torn about Claire going out to seek Frank. In a way I do wish that I'd read the books first because I'm curious to know if I'd be rooting for her to stay or go without knowing what I already know. To me it's obvious that she's running away from a life that makes her happy but I understand why she thinks she needs to go back. I certainly know that if I were in the position that I'd still be trying to go back because not enough time has passed to want to completely sever oneself from the only life they've ever known. A life that was reasonably happy if a bit boring and unsettled. 

For me, I preferred how the book built this up; I could really feel Claire's conflicting emotions here. Up until the almost-rape, Claire had been living in this dream-like fantasy and almost forgotten about her old life she was trying to get back to. The almost-rape violently woke her up. She's angry, at both herself and Jamie, scarred and on edge for days and suddenly she looks up an sees the thing she had been trying to get back to. In some ways, she's running towards safety, more than anything.  On the show, it felt like they got married one day, attacked by bandits the next, almost-raped and standing by the stones one day after that. Intellectually, I understood what was going on with her, but I didn't feel like I did when I read the book. 

15 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm confused about what the deal is with Hugh Munro. Has he been kicked out of his clan? Doesn't that seem unfair considering what he went through? (What the hell with the using burning oil to convert people. Very disturbing.) Why is it that the clan he belonged to can't find work for him? Why does he have to be condemned to life as a beggar? It seems like he's still capable of doing stuff so why is he being treated this way? He seems so nice I totally felt bad about this and wonder if there's going to be any further clarification. 

Hugh wasn't kicked out of his clan, but he was limited in what he could do. Hugh has a very large family to support and a big undertaking for the clan to support them when there were so many other mouths to feed as well. I think it's a case of just not enough resources to go around.

These beggars licences were part of the "poor relief" that happened after the monasteries were dissolved. Basically, it was an early form of wellfare. It was a way of allowing for the community to take care of the sick and elderly who could not provide for themselves. But you had to have a license because you could be arrested for being a "vagabond" without one.