Unspoiled Season 7 Speculation Discussion

[Save Yourself]

The speculation shouldn't be based on books, location sightings, rumours, interviews, etc. It will be most interesting if we share our thoughts on how we see the next season progressing purely based on show canon. 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Save Yourself

[LadyArcadia]

I think Season 7 will show us:

• The end of the Lannisters (except for Tyrion)
• The White Walkers approaching the wall and a battle
• Dany gathering support and on her way to King's Landing
• Bran won't make it to Winterfell - he'll be distracted or held up somehow
• Arya continuing her revenge tour

[AimingforYoko]

I think Season 7 ends with The Night King bringing The Wall down.

[Save Yourself]

I think:

• Jaime: Will kill Cersei. It will be a tragic scene rather than a brutal one.
• Jaime: He'll continue his redemption arc but I'm not firm on how. It will become known that he slayed the Mad King because of his plans to burn down the entire city.
• Agree with AimingforYoko, The Wall will come down in the Season 7 finale.
• Dany: Will arrive at KL and find the people she's come to rule will not be happy about being invaded by a stranger and a bunch of thieves and rapists (the Dothraki and the Iron Born).
• Jon: He'll leave Winterfell in Sansa's hands once the Baelish issue is sorted and take the Wildlings and Houses who have pled fealty to him to try to persuade the rest of Westeros of the WW threat.
• Dany and Jon: Will ally to fight the WWs; they won't marry; he'll find out his parentage but he won't want the crown UNLESS the Dany going evil theory comes true.
• Ayra: Will hear about Jon and Sansa being alive at Winterfell and hotfoot it back there, maybe running across a couple of people on her kill list. Her priority though will be to see her family.
• Clegane Bowl will happen - hopefully Arya will be there cheering on the Hound :)
• Sam: Will find out where there is more dragon glass.
  ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
• Gentry: Will finish rowing to Kings Landing and take the Thorne after Jaime kills Cersei and then will marry Dany (HAHAHAHAHAHA!)
• Baelish: The unpredictable wild card. He'll become Hand to the Night King? He'll open a rescue centre for Direwolves?
• Hot Pie: It will be revealed that he is the Prince that was promised.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Save Yourself
Edited for length

[LadyArcadia]

38 minutes ago, Save Yourself said:

• Jaime: Will kill Cersei. It will be a tragic scene rather than a brutal one.
• Jaime: He'll continue his redemption arc but I'm not firm on how. It will become known that he slayed the Mad King because of his plans to burn down the entire city.

I predict Jaime will kill Cersei but then kill himself right after.  He always said he couldn't live without her.  Tyrion will survive all of it and remain Hand of the King/Queen

Agreed about the wall coming down.  I think all of the Night's Watch will die at that battle and the wall coming down will be the final moment of the season - Leading up to the final season.

Clegane Bowl has to happen! They've been setting it up since Season 1.

[Daisy]

On 7/8/2016 at 3:35 PM, LadyArcadia said:

I predict Jaime will kill Cersei but then kill himself right after.  He always said he couldn't live without her.  Tyrion will survive all of it and remain Hand of the King/Queen

Agreed about the wall coming down.  I think all of the Night's Watch will die at that battle and the wall coming down will be the final moment of the season - Leading up to the final season.

Clegane Bowl has to happen! They've been setting it up since Season 1.

i agree with your Jaime thought. an incest-Romeo Juliet. 
and Clegane Bowl. 

I do think we'll see Gendry. (they brought EVERYONE back this season but him). 
Red Woman's being old will come into play again (why did they show and not do anything with it). 

The wall will come down, but I don't think it will be due to Bran being touched. 
(I do hope we see more flashbacks). 

[Save Yourself]

I'm rewatching the series and am up to S1E6 - is Cersei Gendry's mother? 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Save Yourself

[Save Yourself]

On 9 July 2016 at 5:35 AM, LadyArcadia said:

I predict Jaime will kill Cersei but then kill himself right after.  He always said he couldn't live without her.  Tyrion will survive all of it and remain Hand of the King/Queen

Agreed about the wall coming down.  I think all of the Night's Watch will die at that battle and the wall coming down will be the final moment of the season - Leading up to the final season.

Clegane Bowl has to happen! They've been setting it up since Season 1.

I don't think it will be a murder/suicide as it would not have any pay off for them both to go at once. If Jaime kills Cersei it would be more interesting to see how he lives with that decision rather than just killing them with no one left to care at all that Cersei is gone and only Tyrion and Brienne to mourn Jaime - it would be as if neither of them had ever existed which would be odd for two of the longest surviving main characters. I think it makes sense for Cersei's death to come sooner rather than later as her story seems to be just about done whereas with Jaime there still seems to be unfinished business. I don't think it matters that he's said he can't live without her - people say that sort of thing all the time about someone they love but it's not usually literal when it actually comes down to it - and their circumstances have changed; he hadn't counted on her going completely insane and killing thousands of innocent people and he won't kill her because he 'wants' to but because he feels he has to, she has become so incredibly dangerous, just like the Mad King.

[kcbuckeye2]

On 7/16/2016 at 8:23 AM, Save Yourself said:

I'm rewatching the series and am up to S1E6 - is Cersei Gendry's mother? 

No, Gendry's mother was never specifically named.  Just another of Robert's bastards.

[Hecate7]

On 7/16/2016 at 8:23 AM, Save Yourself said:

I'm rewatching the series and am up to S1E6 - is Cersei Gendry's mother? 

No. I get that you think that because of her speech about having Robert's son and that child dying of a fever, and Robert punching the wall. Assuming that Cersei isn't just flat-out lying to Cat as a way to try to bond, that baby died. Robert saw him die and punched the wall.

[Hook75]

I agree that I think Jaime kills Cersei.  Brienne or Tyrion will end up killing him.

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Gentry: Will finish rowing to Kings Landing and take the Thorne after Jaime kills Cersei and then will marry Dany (HAHAHAHAHAHA!)

I don't want sweet Gentry anywhere near her. I want him with Arya.

I think LF will be a pain in Jon's ass and Sansa will kill him (after thinking all season that she is plotting with him).

I agree that the wall coming down will be the last scene of season 7.

I think one of Dany's dragons will die.

[Chris24601]

While I used to think that Dany would end up going the Evil Conqueror route, I had to pull back on that when she listened to Tyrion and started acting like a reasonable authority figure during "Battle of the Bastards." Basically, I can't see her going that route unless something changes and I couldn't think of much that would get her unhinged enough to fall into her "Burn it all" habits while Tyrion is still there to provide counsel.

6 hours ago, Hook75 said:

I think one of Dany's dragons will die.

THAT would do it though. Its about the only thing I could think of that would drag Dany over the edge against the offending party (or the party framed for it).

One way I could see it happening is if Cersei's forces in King's Landing kill one of the dragons precisely because Dany chose to hold back in order to take the city intact. Losing a dragon in that way would probably be enough for her to decide to just burn it all down and not take chances going forward (i.e. burn first and ask for surrender later). Wiping out the innocent with the guilty would be her final slide into straight up villain territory.

The big question would be if anyone other than Cersei's forces and perhaps Jaime would be there to be burned to drive home the point? Jaime might be there and even have just killed Cersei at the time. Arya is likely headed that direction for her vengeance as well. If Arya runs into the Hound and/or Melisandre they might travel with her as well, and I could see one or the other of them pulling off some heroic sacrifice for Arya's sake (the Hound being particular memorable if he ends up finding the courage to face death by fire in order to save Arya from the dragonpocalypse... heck, that'd probably be enough to put Dany on Arya's list).

I won't hold my breath for it though. As much as I'd love to be wrong about being wrong, I still have to consider Dany as 'savior' to be at least or even more likely than her becoming a villain in the last act (I really feel like the time for that should have been at the Battle of Meereen and just burning it all as her way of washing her hands of it and sailing for Westeros... I don't think a later turn would have near the punch).

Edited August 9, 2016 by Chris24601

[Eyes High]

On 2016-08-09 at 7:44 AM, Chris24601 said:

While I used to think that Dany would end up going the Evil Conqueror route, I had to pull back on that when she listened to Tyrion and started acting like a reasonable authority figure during "Battle of the Bastards." Basically, I can't see her going that route unless something changes and I couldn't think of much that would get her unhinged enough to fall into her "Burn it all" habits while Tyrion is still there to provide counsel.

The show put paid to the notion of "Dany as villainous Mad Queen" with amusing swiftness and economy in 6x09. Things could theoretically change down the line, of course, but I doubt they will. D&D cheerfully acknowledged that Dany has the ruthlessness that "even the good Targaryens" have but were very clear that Dany is "not insane and not a sadist." Mad Queen she ain't: never has been, never will be. Whether or not she survives the series, I expect she will be the saviour and not the villain. In Season 7 it seems she will have to rescue Westeros from Cersei, and in Season 8 I imagine she'll have to do the same with the WW.

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I think LF will be a pain in Jon's ass and Sansa will kill him (after thinking all season that she is plotting with him).

I expect anyone thinking that Sansa will ultimately choose her family over LF is going to be very, very disappointed.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Eyes High

[Stella]

28 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 

I expect anyone thinking that Sansa will ultimately choose her family over LF--in either the books or the show--is going to be very, very disappointed.

I find this comment kind of fascinating. I have not read the books so no ideas there. But from watching the show I have seen absolutely nothing that suggests Sansa would do anything other than ultimately choose her family over LF or anyone for that matter. No doubt there will be some sort of actions that seem to indicate shenanigans on her part. But if so, they would be for the sole purpose of ridding herself of this creep once and for all.

 Her sole purpose was to get Winterfell back. After all she has been through she wanted only to get back home and with any family left. I did not see some dark conniving plan, power play or ulterior motives in her actions. She hates LF IMO. Why would she have any other feelings about him? He sold her to Ramsay and she will never forgive that. Plus she knows he is a manipulative prick. I just cannot imagine her wanting anything other than being as far from him as possible.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Stella said:

I find this comment kind of fascinating. I have not read the books so no ideas there. But from watching the show I have seen absolutely nothing that suggests Sansa would do anything other than ultimately choose her family over LF or anyone for that matter. No doubt there will be some sort of actions that seem to indicate shenanigans on her part. But if so, they would be for the sole purpose of ridding herself of this creep once and for all.

 Her sole purpose was to get Winterfell back. After all she has been through she wanted only to get back home and with any family left. I did not see some dark conniving plan, power play or ulterior motives in her actions.

"Her sole purpose" was to get Winterfell back...for herself. Jon initially balked at the idea of trying to get Winterfell back. He didn't want to become entangled in yet another battle until Sansa (with an assist from Ramsay's letter) twisted his arm. In Sansa's mind, getting Winterfell back wasn't a mission to save Rickon, because Sansa realized Rickon was as good as dead in Ramsay's hands, although that's how she managed to sell it to Jon. Nor was the war for Winterfell for Jon's benefit, since he wanted nothing to do with the scheme until Sansa convinced him that it was necessary to save Rickon and to protect her (even though Sansa dismissed his promise to protect her later on in the season). Jon was a means to an end.

Sansa's actions in Season 6 aren't some ringing endorsement of Sansa's fond attachment to her family and preference for family over LF. Quite the opposite, in fact, since she uses Jon as a tool in service of her own goals, and writes Rickon off as dead without bothering to inform Jon of the fact until it's too late to back out of the battle. She treats LF, on the other hand, as her little secret, using his information about the Blackfish while lying about its origin, by concealing the fact that she met with him, and by secretly soliciting his aid (and offering no explanation for having done so to Jon after the fact). This reinforces the fact that she continues to treat the two of them as a team, despite supposedly having kicked LF out of her life. In her last scene of Season 6, she is sharing an intimate look with LF unseen by her brother even though he's right next to her. I expect that that will be Jon's problem in Season 7 in a nutshell: Jon blithely proceeding under the assumption that Sansa is fine with the situation while LF exploits her anger. I think Sansa's arc in Season 6 was about her quest to get back Winterfell and the renewal of her alliance with LF at the expense of her relationship with Jon, not about Sansa choosing her family over LF.

As for the claim that Sansa hates LF, there's no indication that as of 6x10 Sansa hates LF. She was extremely disappointed and betrayed at LF hurting her, since he had professed to care about her, and she appears to be very angry and cold towards him in 6x05, but that's not where things end for them in Season 6; she is very soft and gentle with him in 6x10. Her reaction when he goes in for a kiss is to stop him with a hand, not a slap. Sansa was very hurt and upset at LF's betrayal, which is why she's so angry with him in 6x05. However, she appears very much mollified in 6x10 after he has bailed her out. She is confiding to him about her feelings ("Back then I thought about what I wanted, never about what I had") and smiling fondly when she says that his declaration of allegiance to other houses in the past has never stopped him from serving himself. Sansa doesn't trust LF, but she has no intention of kicking him out of her life and is treating him again like a confidant and ally. By all rights, she should be telling him "Now we're even for the whole selling-me-to-Ramsay thing, now fuck off." She doesn't, and the fact that she doesn't is very significant. It's very telling that her last moment in Season 6 is a long, private gaze with LF expressing her true sentiments (resentment, jealousy, anger) echoing her long, private gaze with LF expressing her true sentiments in Season 4 after hoodwinking the Vale lords with her tale of woe.

In my opinion, Season 6 set up Sansa + LF vs. Jon. The easy confidence that so many have expressed that Sansa will make the right choice if she has to choose between LF and Jon baffles me, particularly when the characterization and plotting seem to be taking Sansa in the opposite direction.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Eyes High

[Stella]

I'm going to think about your ideas Eyes High.

But one quick reply to this comment -

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her last moment in Season 6 is a long, private gaze with LF expressing her true sentiments (resentment, jealousy, anger)

is that when she saw him it was more of an "oh crap that asshole is still here",  continuing to be a thorn in her life.

[Hook75]

Sansa was self-serving from the start but I think (hope?) she'll surprise us.

[TxanGoddess]

Sorry, double posted due to hitting quote instead of edit, real post below.

Edited August 12, 2016 by TxanGoddess

[TxanGoddess]

2 minutes ago, TxanGoddess said:

I hate how wishy washy it always sounds to take a moderate opinion in cases like these, but despite agreeing with much of the evidence for a "darker Sansa" in season 7, from the characterization I also still pick up on a lot of longing for a sort of truer, more authentic life than LF-lite double dealing and scheming. 

Of course, I also saw "the look" after KITN as being one of fear and foreboding of LF and not assent or cooperation with him on her part, and that look seems to be the nail that a lot of folks want to use to seal up their guess!

Sansa is selfish and elitist, but I don't see her as naturally sharing the same casual malignance of LF.  What I see is someone who was scared for so long that resorting to manipulation and back dealing became a force of habit that she can't yet figure out how to stop doubling down on now.  Sort of like the Albert Einstein quote of how you can't prevent and prepare for war simultaneously ... she hasn't got that ... yet. 

So it's a matter of brain training at this point.  If she had an epiphany of some kind (I'm thinking like Jon's fighting through corpses to breathe type of event) or if someone could snap her out of it then I think there's a good possibility the change back to more straightforward, Stark-like dealing could become fixed in her pretty easily, even if she wouldn't ever achieve the same heights of honor as say, Ned.  Jon might be able to give her guidance in that direction -- her respect for him is too low most of the time on its own -- but he does have the memory of their father to draw on. 

My main hope too is that actual proximity will play enough of a role that LF presumably not being there with her will give her some breathing room for what I would like to see merely because its a happier ending (yeah I know, yuck it up!). 

In any case, I do think that what will basically be a battle for her soul (Jon/family/Winterfell VS LF/power) will be interesting either way it goes, so I am keeping my hopes here low. 

[Chris24601]

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My main hope too is that actual proximity will play enough of a role that LF presumably not being there with her will give her some breathing room for what I would like to see merely because its a happier ending (yeah I know, yuck it up!). 

I don't know why people think Game of Thrones will have a downer ending. Everyone involved has said the ending will be bittersweet.

Maybe its because of the 'bitter' part, but the textbook definition of a bittersweet ending is a victory with a heavy price paid, but a victory none-the-less. It still ends on a high note, but has sadness and nostalgia over what was lost to get there.

Even if everything went right for the remaining Starks for the rest of the series it would still qualify as a bittersweet ending due to everything they've already lost. Any more at this point and there's really no way to keep the "sweet" part of the bittersweet ending and all that'd be left is the "bitter" (Dany on the other hand could probably lose quite a bit at this stage before it even hit as low as the bittersweet territory).

So, no. I don't think its out of place to expect some type of happy ending to the story.

Personally, I think Arya's concept drop of "What's west of Westeros?" is a foreshadowing of her ending. Its just way too pointed a line for it to just be tossed out there randomly at this stage. Without that line the notion of what might be there would never have even entered anyone's minds. Bittersweet for her is that she'll probably finish off her list, but be so messed up by everything she's been through that she no longer feels like she belongs and sails off west of Westeros to find someplace where she might belong.

And if that is Arya's endpoint I don't see how you get to bittersweet for the Starks still in Westeros (all two and a half of them) with Sansa ending up a villain. Bran's likely impotent due to his injuries. Jon may have Stark blood, but is either a Snow or a Targaryen depending on Lyanna's relationship status when she croaked. There is no Stark bloodline going forward without Sansa.

I also read Sansa's look as "Crap, Littlefinger is not happy and that is bad for us" (my favorite interpretation of Sansa's expression that I read elsewhere was "Go away you human embodiment of a windowless van").

Frankly, I feel like any conflict between Jon and Sansa is more likely to be Sansa arguing that Littlefinger is too big a threat to keep around while Jon argues that with the White Walker's coming they need Littlefinger's forces too much to send him away than the Sansa betrayal some people seem to think is coming. Betrayal requires a motive and Sansa has no reason to betray Jon when he'd most likely just give her anything she asked for anyway.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, doram said:

Did D & D confirm that Rickon dies in the future books? I remember them confirming Shireen's death and Hodor's, but not Rickon's.  

Dunno. This is a 'No Book Talk' thread so I'm just going off the show where Rickon is most certainly dead.

Whether this means he is or is not dead innthe books is a topic for another thread, but given his companion was named Shaggydog I wouldn't put high marks on his survival in any medium.

Narratively speaking Rickon was doomed because he was the spare Stark and the easy answer to a problem... and fictional stories never rely on easy answers because there's no drama there.

The healthy truborn son had to die because the more dramatic choice needed to be less ideal... either a Stark bastard, a Stark Girl and a Stark Cripple. That's just how storytelling works.

[anamika]

7 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

I don't know why people think Game of Thrones will have a downer ending. Everyone involved has said the ending will be bittersweet.

Even if everything went right for the remaining Starks for the rest of the series it would still qualify as a bittersweet ending due to everything they've already lost. Any more at this point and there's really no way to keep the "sweet" part of the bittersweet ending and all that'd be left is the "bitter". Dany on the other hand could probably lose quite a bit at this stage before it even hit as low as the bittersweet territory

Personally, I think Arya's concept drop of "What's west of Westeros?" is a foreshadowing of her ending.  Bittersweet for her is that she'll probably finish off her list, but be so messed up by everything she's been through that she no longer feels like she belongs and sails off west of Westeros to find someplace where she might belong.

And if that is Arya's endpoint I don't see how you get to bittersweet for the Starks still in Westeros (all two and a half of them) with Sansa ending up a villain. Bran's likely impotent due to his injuries. Jon may have Stark blood, but is either a Snow or a Targaryen depending on Lyanna's relationship status when she croaked. There is no Stark bloodline going forward without Sansa.

See, this is the problem I have with these 'bittersweet' ending theories : The bitter part is Dany dying because she is barren and has not lost enough, Arya dying or going off alone because she is apparently too 'messed up' , Bran deserving nothing because he is crippled and impotent, while Sansa gets to ride off into the sunset with the perfect man and become queen to make up the sweet part. It's as if only Sansa deserves a happy ending or something. For one, every character has suffered one way or another in this show. For another, this is not a show that rewards characters with happy endings just because they have lost too much.

Dany has lost just as much as the Starks, if not more. She never had a loving family or home other than an abusive brother, partly because of the actions of Ned Stark. She was raped, lost a child and husband. Since season one she has constantly worked hard towards her goal of reclaiming the Iron Throne. So why should Dany continue to lose more while the Starks get the happy ending?

Arya holds onto Needle, and the last line she mentioned in Braavos was 'A girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I'm going home'. How does that indicate that Arya will no longer feel like she belongs? And how is her slaughter of the Freys different from Sansa smirking at Ramsey getting torn apart and eaten by his dogs. If Arya is too messed up for living in Winterfell, then so is a Sansa who cared more about winning back Winterfell than saving her little brother or who was willing to sacrifice Jon in battle so that she could claim the credit for the victory.

Arya is possibly in the Riverlands because she will either be reuniting with her direwolf Nymeria or the brotherhood without banners. Or she will be heading south to take out Cersei which interestingly could make her the younger 'queen' who casts down Cersei. Or she will head North to meet up with her brother. Why should we rule her out for continuing the Stark bloodline? She is very much in the running and an important character.

I think each character can have a bittersweet ending that does not lead to dying or going away. Maybe Dany/Jon become Queen/King and understand the burden and responsibility that comes with it. Jon misses the North and Arya. They can never rest easy and the kingdom they inherit is devastated by the WW. Maybe Arya has to give up her own desires for freedom, reclaim her identity, rebuild winterfell and marry to continue the Stark line. Bran keeping watch over his family as the powerful 3ER, but being lonely. Tyrion finally getting Casterly Rock and when he gets it, realizes that he is still not happy. Or all these characters could end up dying. I am just saying that bittersweet need not necessarily mean Sansa coming out on top while everyone else is too messed up or needs to lose. 

I think that it all goes back to what Ned told Arya (When she fights with Sansa) way back in season one - You're a Stark of Winterfell. You know our words. You were born in the long summer. You've never known anything else. But now winter is truly coming. And in the winter, we must protect ourselves, look after one another. We cannot fight a war amongst ourselves.

And this is exactly what Jon tells Sansa in the last episode - We need to trust each other. We cannot fight a war amongst ourselves. We have so many enemies now.

It's all up to Sansa now. Either she stays loyal to her family or she sides with LF and tries to undermine Jon. And if she does the latter, I don't see much of a future for her, no matter how much of an expert game player she is. If I may use a book quote : "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives " .

Edited August 14, 2016 by anamika

[riley702]

Well said!

[TxanGoddess]

posted by anamika:

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If Arya is too messed up for living in Winterfell, then so is a Sansa who cared more about winning back Winterfell than saving her little brother or who was willing to sacrifice Jon in battle so that she could claim the credit for the victory.

As soon as they decided to take back Winterfell they both decided that there was a potential for sacrificing Jon in battle.  The Vale army isn't magic, battle remains a risky proposition whatever the numbers.   

I think Sansa is pretty shitty to Jon sometimes ... it even reminds me a bit of how Cersei treats the Mountain, like hired help, or like someone who owes her fealty.  But I do think we can absolve her of planned negligence towards his life beyond the fact that she wanted him to war for Winterfell in the first place. 

This might not be the thread for it, but since we do know so little of the character's (not Sophie Turner's) motivations since she never really did 'fess, I've kind of wondered if a trust issue with LF could have been a good reason for her to withhold that information too.  Where would Jon have been if Sansa had been all like "Oh yeah I got us the Vale too," and LF hadn't shown up?  That apology without explanation she gave to Jon on the walls of Winterfell is going to fucking haunt me until the end of the stupid show.   

Onto bittersweet endings, although I wasn't the person you were responding to, I definitely think each character who is left standing should get one, not just Sansa. 

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So why should Dany continue to lose more while the Starks get the happy ending?

I don't see how Sansa (or any of the other Starks) having her own bittersweet ending would take anything away from Dany?  They have very different goals, unless/except for the idea that most of the characters probably do want to find love along with all the wars and titles and stuff. 

Unless ... is this boiling down to some sort of shipping issue? 

Not only is Kit Harington just a sexy motherfucking beast who would make either of them look good with him, but Jon Snow the character engages my "care" button a great deal more than either Dany or Sansa.  So I'm not really invested in the ships that much, except that to me the show was clearly pushing some Jonsa vibes at us (all those fuzzy, porno lit scenes, the forehead kiss etc).  My point here is, if we're talking about love as part of the "bittersweet" ending for anyone, Jon Snow finding him some is the only one I personally care about, and it wouldn't need to be a conventional ship to satisfy me either. 

Sansa already having Winterfell after the rest of her hellarific journey is bittersweet enough for me by itself as long as she doesn't go and become an apprentice Sith to LF too--which would be bitter alone, not sweet. 

Edited August 14, 2016 by TxanGoddess

[Eyes High]

14 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Frankly, I feel like any conflict between Jon and Sansa is more likely to be Sansa arguing that Littlefinger is too big a threat to keep around

I don't think Season 6 supports this prediction.

Even though Sansa claims that only a fool would trust LF, she shows no intention of kicking LF to the curb in 6x10. Their scene in 6x10 suggests that she has significantly softened towards him and walked back her previous "GTFO" position. Gone is the ramrod straight posture and cold tone of voice. Her "What do you want?" is softly entreating, not cold and annoyed. This is key. Had she maintained the tone that she used in 6x05, it would be one thing, but Sansa in 6x10, as wryly aware as she is of LF's shortcomings in the trustworthiness department, makes no mention of telling LF to head home. This is important, I think.

The thing to remember about Sansa is that she's known for quite some time that LF is a terrible person and a dangerous person but that she has chosen to keep him in her life, even when given a choice, since he is useful to her and she believes she knows him and knows what he wants. (She said as much in Season 4 when LF asked her why she didn't give him up.) The incident that prompted her to turn her back on LF in 6x05 was not the fact that LF did something terrible, but that he did something terrible to her, giving the lie to her belief that she knew him and that he would work to advance her interests. Now that he has made amends by giving her the Vale army and given her valuable advice--advice that's proven prophetic now that Jon has been named the KITN and the Northerners have proven they don't care about Sansa's claim--he has once more proven his usefulness to her.

Sansa is extremely unlikely to view LF as a threat to her, despite his duplicitous nature, because he has once again shown himself to be a useful asset, particularly now that his warning that Sansa would need an army loyal to her and not Jon has proven prophetic. Sansa will have no interest in getting rid of the only person in the North loyal to her and her alone, particularly now that a roomful of Northerners acclaimed Jon KITN without a word to spare for her efforts or her claim. Sansa doesn't believe in her heart of hearts that LF is too big a threat to her to keep around: she didn't believe that in Season 4 when she passed up an opportunity to be free of him for good in favour of keeping him around as an asset, and she didn't believe that at the end of Season 6 when she chatted with LF in the godswood without making any noises about him needing to leave immediately.  She also seems to have implicitly accepted his claim that he didn't know what Ramsay was about, since she is not treating him like an enemy in 6x10 (she would not be gabbing about her childhood with someone she believed had deliberately sold her to an abusive psychopath).

Even if Sansa believed that LF was too big a threat not to her, but to Jon, to keep around, would she act on that belief by urging Jon to get rid of LF, knowing as she does that LF is useful to her? I doubt it.

The other thing is that LF is not so stupid as to make any blunt suggestions of openly opposing or even killing Jon that would offend whatever's left of Sansa's sense of familial loyalty or moral rectitude. If he does pitch her a plan that would undermine Jon's power (or boost Sansa's power at Jon's expense), he would couch it in terms that Sansa would find acceptable, much like he pitched the Ramsay marriage as a way of getting revenge for her family. If he's sufficiently subtle, Sansa might not even identify the plan as a potential threat to Jon until after she's signed on to and acted on it.

10 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Narratively speaking Rickon was doomed because he was the spare Stark and the easy answer to a problem... and fictional stories never rely on easy answers because there's no drama there.

If Rickon had survived, there would be no reason for conflict between Jon and Sansa. They would set aside their differences to concentrate on Rickon, and Sansa's claim and the fight over Northern leadership would be a non-issue. I'd say he was killed to spur conflict between Jon and Sansa...which is why I find it strange that so many seem to think that the conflict between Jon and Sansa in Season 7 will be easily resolved. If Rickon had to die to make this conflict happen, I'm guessing it will be a very big deal.

1 hour ago, TxanGoddess said:

So I'm not really invested in the ships that much, except that to me the show was clearly pushing some Jonsa vibes at us (all those fuzzy, porno lit scenes, the forehead kiss etc). 

I didn't see the show pushing Jonsa vibes at all. Even the much-discussed forehead kiss came after Jon gently reproaching Sansa and more or less telling her to knock off the shady bullshit ("We can't fight a war among ourselves"). I believe Sansa wants to be a good sister--thus the gesture of letting him have the lord's bedroom and her insistence that she views him as a Stark--but the cracks in their relationship are already emerging: the reminder that they were never close as children, Sansa's frustration with Jon when he initially balks at going to war and later refuses to run the campaign the way she wants, Sansa's mistrust of Davos (whom Jon trusts), Sansa's fury when Jon does not solicit her advice in the war council, Sansa concealing her meeting with LF and lying about the source of her information as to the Blackfish, and of course Sansa secretly writing to LF to ask for his help and failing to inform Jon of LF's offer of the Knights of the Vale. Now, with LF in the picture--someone Sansa has told Jon is untrustworthy and yet someone she continues to keep around for her own purposes)--those cracks are likely to deepen.

There may have been inappropriate chemistry, sure, but put two attractive actors in a scene together and someone will be shipping the characters before long. I'd hesitate to read anything into it, or anything more than the equally inappropriate chemistry between Robb and Cat's actors a few seasons ago.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Eyes High

[anamika]

2 hours ago, TxanGoddess said:

As soon as they decided to take back Winterfell they both decided that there was a potential for sacrificing Jon in battle.  The Vale army isn't magic, battle remains a risky proposition whatever the numbers.   

I think Sansa is pretty shitty to Jon sometimes ... it even reminds me a bit of how Cersei treats the Mountain, like hired help, or like someone who owes her fealty.  But I do think we can absolve her of planned negligence towards his life beyond the fact that she wanted him to war for Winterfell in the first place. 

This might not be the thread for it, but since we do know so little of the character's (not Sophie Turner's) motivations since she never really did 'fess, I've kind of wondered if a trust issue with LF could have been a good reason for her to withhold that information too.  Where would Jon have been if Sansa had been all like "Oh yeah I got us the Vale too," and LF hadn't shown up?  That apology without explanation she gave to Jon on the walls of Winterfell is going to fucking haunt me until the end of the stupid show.  

I think that the show gave us enough hints this season that Sansa did not act in good faith with regards to Jon. The Vale army may not have been magic, but it would have helped them with gaining the support of houses like Glover and make better plans on how to tackle Ramsay. Sure, battle remains risky, but the risk increased when Jon went into the fight with lesser forces.  She could have told Jon about Ramsay and Rickon weeks ago while they were touring the North. Instead she hits him with the 'Rickon is already dead' stuff the night before the battle, giving him no time to accept that their priorities have changed from saving Rickon to winning back WF.

And I don't think we can use the excuse that she was uncertain about LF showing up. She should have mentioned to Jon and co. about her meeting with LF, that LF was untrustworthy but they could try asking him for help and see if he responds. Jon only hastened the attack because there was no way to get more men, the men already present were squabbling among themselves and winter was coming. If he had known about the Vale factor, I think he would have waited. They could have send scouts to see if an army was coming. The smart play would have been to say "We may have more people coming, wait a day", especially after she kept harping over and over about needing more people. Jon even asked her, point blank, how they could get more men. That would have been the time to chime in with "Well, I wrote this letter...".

Sansa started lying to Jon the minute LF made that parting shot about Jon being her half brother. She has been talking down to him since episode 5, using him for her cause. She gets angry at him for asking Davos and Tormund for advice and not asking her. She held back important information from Jon. Who is fighting this battle for HER. And she repays him by treating him like a pawn on a chessboard.

The seeds have been planted for Jon Vs Sansa next season. The actors have more or less confirmed it as well.

2 hours ago, TxanGoddess said:

Onto bittersweet endings, although I wasn't the person you were responding to, I definitely think each character who is left standing should get one, not just Sansa. I don't see how Sansa having her own bittersweet ending would take anything away from Dany?  They have very different goals, unless/except for the idea that most of the characters probably do want to find love along with all the wars and titles and stuff. 

 Unless ... is this boiling down to some sort of shipping issue?

It's just that I have noticed that some sections of fandom absolutely hate it if Dany becomes Queen on the Iron Throne or gets an happy ending or marries Jon. Her proposed endings that I have frequently seen have always been rather miserable or 'bitter'. At first it was that she would become the mad queen like her father and be mercy killed by Jon. The show has thankfully put an end to that nonsense with the crowning of Cersei as the mad queen. Next,  she will become a villain and ending up fighting Jon despite it being shown time and again that Dany can put the greater good about her own ambitions. She stayed in Meereen for the slaves and Barristan talks about her having a gentle heart. She and Jon have a lot in common and I think they would make a good team.

I absolutely agree that Sansa's bittersweet ending should not take away from Dany or vice versa. The problem comes when people propose that Dany gets hit with all the bitter endings and Sansa gets all the possible sweet endings. So Dany marrying Jon is apparently too sweet and happy and cliche and bad writing. But Sansa marrying Jon is what Sansa deserves and is perfect and good writing and what not.

I see two endings for Dany -

1. She sits on the Iron throne with/without Jon by her side. She gets what she wants but it may not be what she needs.

2. She decides at the end that ruling is not what it's made out to be, voluntarily gives it to Jon and leaves for a more simple, happier life. She gets what she needs but it may not be what she wants.

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Even if Sansa believed that LF was too big a threat not to her, but to Jon, to keep around, would she act on that belief by urging Jon to get rid of LF, knowing as she does that LF is useful to her? I doubt it.

And if she urged Jon to get rid of LF, I think Jon would readily agree. I don't see any conflict there. Jon did not seem to disagree when Sansa told him that only a fool would trust LF and he seems to be open to suggestions from Sansa. Jon got rid of Melisandre despite her being a valuable asset.

I thought Jon's decision regarding Mel was a wise one, a rare case of the show writing Jon making a smart decision. It was basically what Tyrion told Dany regarding Jorah. Banish him but don't kill those who are devoted to her. Jon banishes Mel and does not execute her.

Edited August 14, 2016 by anamika

[TxanGoddess]

Eyes High, I guess I would say we could agree to disagree but the thing is, I really don't disagree with the evidence you've presented, but I don't think that the two possible interpretations you and I saw in the Jon/Sansa relationship are utterly exclusive of one another either.  You can be attracted to someone you mistrust.  There were a lot of online recappers that made me rewatch their scenes together in a new light with the ship angle in mind, so I know I am not the only one who saw this ... the very idea was put into my head by people who were paid for their opinions! 

But I love your phrasing "inappropriate chemistry."  That's what I hearted you for FYI. 

Anamika, you also give me a lot to think about.  I  guess maybe I'm not as impressed by the power or portrayal of romantic love as the parties I think you were referring to.  My interest is in symmetry from the Jon Snow side. 

Jon is her bastard not-quite-as-good-half-brother, not really a Stark like her, more of a pawn in her mind as you point out, so I just think that it would be a super neat if he is the one who ultimately leads Sansa back to her own Stark-ness somehow.  Almost like a facial straight from Ned's grave!  So that's it whether the means are romantic or not is not my priority for what I want to see. 

But if she does keep dickering with Littlefinger interminably, then I hope she dies.  Maybe even that Jon be the one who kills her.  Then bittersweet can apply to Jon's arc from that angle.   

Dany is just hard to predict for me.  But the reason I do care less about her is that she isn't tied to the Starks in any way TBH.  All the Mary Sue, deus ex machine accusations or competing ships don't figure into any of my judgements of her, I just care more about anyone who was tied to Winterfell from from jump than anyone that wasn't.   

[Stella]

I think it is pretty clear that anyone left standing at the end of the series will qualify for the label 'bittersweet' in their outcomes. Everyone that has any decency whatsoever has gone through a ton of bad stuff. Hopefully the worst will all be dead - nothing bittersweet for them, only finality.

Quote

It's just that I have noticed that some sections of fandom absolutely hate it if Dany becomes Queen on the Iron Throne or gets an happy ending or marries Jon. Her proposed endings that I have frequently seen have always been rather miserable or 'bitter'. At first it was that she would become the mad queen like her father and be mercy killed by Jon. The show has thankfully put an end to that nonsense with the crowning of Cersei as the mad queen. Next,  she will become a villain and ending up fighting Jon despite it being shown time and again that Dany can put the greater good about her own ambitions. She stayed in Meereen for the slaves and Barristan talks about her having a gentle heart. She and Jon have a lot in common and I think they would make a good team.

I am not a big fan of Dany but I certainly would not hate for her to become Queen under the right circumstances. I feel she is a very gray character. Yes she has done good in freeing the slaves, albeit to a great extent for her own benefit. But still, she shows strong humanitarianism in those acts and it's very admirable. What I don't like is that she is so hell-bent on becoming the queen in the first place, at practically any cost. I do not like that she is invading Westeros with a huge army of foreign born people who could and probably will do a great deal of damage to the people that in truth they have no issue with. They are doing if for her and her alone. That's not cool to me. Not to mention that her soldiers would be seen as a foreign horde leading to a crap load of issues. This whole aspect I find very unsettling about her character. She is willing to use these people that she 'freed' for her own cause. I am not convinced yet that what she aspires to is justified by these acts. But on the other hand I do see the importance of getting those dragons to the real story - the white walkers. She could save the day literally in the this battle.

I guess my interest in this show now is not the Iron Throne. The Kingdom has seen a lot of suffering for people's ambitions to obtain it and from just being a show watcher I can't say that having a King or Queen there has been a good thing. I suppose it has been at times and could be again but it seems more likely to me that ultimately a new way for these lands would be better.

[Hecate7]

21 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

I don't know why people think Game of Thrones will have a downer ending. Everyone involved has said the ending will be bittersweet.

Maybe its because of the 'bitter' part, but the textbook definition of a bittersweet ending is a victory with a heavy price paid, but a victory none-the-less. It still ends on a high note, but has sadness and nostalgia over what was lost to get there.

Even if everything went right for the remaining Starks for the rest of the series it would still qualify as a bittersweet ending due to everything they've already lost. Any more at this point and there's really no way to keep the "sweet" part of the bittersweet ending and all that'd be left is the "bitter" (Dany on the other hand could probably lose quite a bit at this stage before it even hit as low as the bittersweet territory).

So, no. I don't think its out of place to expect some type of happy ending to the story.

Personally, I think Arya's concept drop of "What's west of Westeros?" is a foreshadowing of her ending. Its just way too pointed a line for it to just be tossed out there randomly at this stage. Without that line the notion of what might be there would never have even entered anyone's minds. Bittersweet for her is that she'll probably finish off her list, but be so messed up by everything she's been through that she no longer feels like she belongs and sails off west of Westeros to find someplace where she might belong.

And if that is Arya's endpoint I don't see how you get to bittersweet for the Starks still in Westeros (all two and a half of them) with Sansa ending up a villain. Bran's likely impotent due to his injuries. Jon may have Stark blood, but is either a Snow or a Targaryen depending on Lyanna's relationship status when she croaked. There is no Stark bloodline going forward without Sansa.

I also read Sansa's look as "Crap, Littlefinger is not happy and that is bad for us" (my favorite interpretation of Sansa's expression that I read elsewhere was "Go away you human embodiment of a windowless van").

Frankly, I feel like any conflict between Jon and Sansa is more likely to be Sansa arguing that Littlefinger is too big a threat to keep around while Jon argues that with the White Walker's coming they need Littlefinger's forces too much to send him away than the Sansa betrayal some people seem to think is coming. Betrayal requires a motive and Sansa has no reason to betray Jon when he'd most likely just give her anything she asked for anyway.

Read some of GRRM's other books. It's not his style to have a "bittersweet ending" that means heavy losses in the beginning and then lots of victories for the main characters for the final two entire books. His style usually involves at least one last minute death of a character you liked and thought was home free, the wholesale sacrifice of a boatload of characters you had hope for in the Final Battle, and the ONE character who gets a "happy ending" earns it because he prevented something EVEN WORSE from happening--nobody gets a real happy ending as in settling down with a nice family around them. That's simply not his style. Often a character you didn't like saves one (out of six) characters you did like, and redeems himself that way, but more often he fails and redeems himself by annually putting a rose on that character's grave. THAT's a GRRM "bittersweet" ending. I doubt he'll kill Arya or Bran, which means he pretty much has to kill practically everyone else.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Hecate7

[Chris24601]

See, I don't think Arya heading off "West of Westeros" (which could seriously be a book title) as being bitter at all. If anything I expect it to feel more like her ending in season four. Boarding a ship to an uncertain but hopeful future. Close with her standing at the front of the ship looking out at the horizon with a smile on her face and I doubt any viewer would find her ending to be 'bitter.'

I've known several people with PTSD and for some of them they just needed to get away from people who used to know them because of all the expectations of acting like the person they used to be instead of the person they are now.

I can totally buy that sentiment with Arya. She is a completely different person from the girl whom Jon, Sansa or Bran last saw and returning to her family would put pressure on her to pretend to be that girl they remember.

So instead she decides her adventures aren't over and sets off to find what's out there. The bitter is that she's leaving her family and old life behind, but the sweet is that she headed off on a new adventure (her childhood dream) with the prospect of finding a place she belongs and can be happy again (her adult dream).

Sweet for Sansa would be that she becomes queen (her childhood dream) and finds peace and safety in her family home (her adult dream), but the bitter is that her parents and two brothers were murdered, she was kept hostage, beaten, forced into marriage (twice) and repeatedly raped in the process of getting there.

To me it seems like Arya's ending would be akin to Frodo's ending while Sansa's ending is akin to Samwise's. Both were both sweet and bitter at the same time, but in very different ways.

[glowbug]

GRRM spoke of it being a bittersweet ending, not a Hollywood happy ending. He specifically said there would be hope. I tend to think the ending will be more bitter than sweet based on his comments. It won't be all doom and gloom but I just don't see Jon and Sansa ending up together and raising their family as King and Queen of the North. That's much too happily ever and not really bitter at all. Jon defeating the White Walkers but losing his life would be bittersweet. Book speculation: 

Spoiler

Jon and Dany getting together as was strongly hinted at in 06x10 only to have her die in childbirth (as has been strongly hinted at in the books with MMD's prophecy that Drogo would be returned to her after she bore a living child) would be bittersweet. 

Jon and Sansa getting everything they wanted, even if it comes at a cost, is not bittersweet IMO. It's just sweet. 

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, glowbug said:

Jon and Sansa getting everything they wanted, even if it comes at a cost, is not bittersweet IMO. It's just sweet. 

Agreed, particularly given how much every surviving major character has suffered at this point. It would be one thing if Sansa had suffered disproportionately more than any other major character, but she has not.

Quote

Sweet for Sansa would be that she becomes queen (her childhood dream) and finds peace and safety in her family home (her adult dream), but the bitter is that her parents and two brothers were murdered, she was kept hostage, beaten, forced into marriage (twice) and repeatedly raped in the process of getting there.

I disagree, because as I said, everyone has suffered. Moreover, many other characters have suffered exactly what she has suffered:

1. Family members were murdered: Pretty much every surviving major character who had family to begin with has lost multiple relatives at this point under violent circumstances. Having lost most of her family to war and murder before the series starts, Dany starts GOT with only one relative (as far as she knows), who then threatens her life and is killed before her eyes. Edmure has lost pretty much his entire family to murder. Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei only have each other for family as of the end of Season 6 (although granted, Tyrion and Cersei did some of the murdering there). Robin Arryn lost both his parents at a young age (one to murder, the other to what he was told was a suicide). Meera saw her brother murdered before her eyes. Olenna has lost her son and her two beloved grandchildren to murder. Theon and Yara's father was murdered. Heck, all of the Northern lords and ladies we've met in Season 6 have immediate relatives who were murdered (Lord Cerwyn's parents were skinned alive, Lord Manderly's son was murdered at the Red Wedding, Lord Glover lost family members, and Lyanna Mormont's mom died in the war as well). And so on.

2. Kept hostage or held prisoner: Again, pretty much every character has experienced this particular delight at one point or another during the series, often multiple times. Tyrion spent the better part of three seasons in captivity (Season 1, Season 4, and Season 5).

3. Beaten: Too many to list.

4. Forced into marriage: Numerous characters, including Dany.

5. Repeatedly raped: Gilly and Dany.

If you argue that for the ending to be "bittersweet," a given character has to get everything he/she wants provided he/she has suffered a lot, since otherwise it would be just bitter, by that logic, Tyrion must find true love and end up as Lord of Casterly Rock, Theon must regrow all his lost appendages and be forgiven by the Starks, Dany must effortlessly romp to the throne and be the longest-reigning, wisest, most beloved queen who ever lived, Jaime's hand must regrow and he must joyously marry a 100% reformed Cersei, etc. etc. These suggestions seem preposterous, but I find the idea that Sansa will have her wishes (for a fairytale romance with a prince and for Winterfell) granted as a narrative reward to sweeten her suffering so that her ending is "bittersweet" equally preposterous.

I also believe that it is that it is less likely that all characters will receive endings carefully calibrated to be "bittersweet" and more likely that some characters will receive better or more favourable outcomes than others. If the latter is true, and if the ending will be handing out sweeter endings to certain characters favoured over others, there's nothing about Sansa's arc that entitles her to get one of the better endings, since she hasn't suffered much more than anyone else. Why should Sansa be entitled above others (Arya, Dany, etc.) to have all her dreams come true? Because she's had terrible things happen to her? That's true of all the characters still standing at this point. There's nothing about Sansa that should warrant the Disney fairytale ending treatment.

Finally, all the trials that were listed here as justification for Sansa getting a sweet ending of marriage and queenship--rape, forced marriage, verbal and psychological abuse, etc.--Dany has also undergone. However, I see no suggestion that Dany should get everything she wants as "compensation" for what she has endured, when by this logic Dany should also be entitled to everything she desires.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Eyes High

[anamika]

11 hours ago, Stella said:

 What I don't like is that she is so hell-bent on becoming the queen in the first place, at practically any cost. I do not like that she is invading Westeros with a huge army of foreign born people who could and probably will do a great deal of damage to the people that in truth they have no issue with. They are doing if for her and her alone. That's not cool to me. Not to mention that her soldiers would be seen as a foreign horde leading to a crap load of issues. This whole aspect I find very unsettling about her character. She is willing to use these people that she 'freed' for her own cause. I am not convinced yet that what she aspires to is justified by these acts. But on the other hand I do see the importance of getting those dragons to the real story - the white walkers. She could save the day literally in the this battle.

But this is true of most of the nobles in the series is it not?

Let's look at it from Dany's perspective. Her father and brother were killed, her sister in law raped and murdered and her baby nephew and niece slaughtered. Her mother had to flee KL to live. Growing up, she and her brother had to constantly keep moving to escape the assassins send by the Baratheons. Viserys was known as the beggar king, because they had to beg and depend on the mercies of others to survive. Dany herself was sold off to a Dothraki warlord,  raped and had to adapt to their culture and lifestyle to survive. If the Starks can fight for Winterfell and an independent North,  why can't Dany do the same to get her home back?

And yet Sansa goes around demanding that the North fight for the Starks. Robb engages in war for an independent North, that results in thousands dying and many Northern houses losing family members.  Jon brings raping, pillaging Wildlings to fight south of the wall.  Davos supported a man who was burning people to death. The Tyrells and Brienne supported Renly who was selfishly trying to usurp his older brother. The Lannisters raped and plundered the Riverlands and engaged in war to strengthen their hold on the throne. Cersei murders hundreds to become queen. Jaime threatens to catapult children.  Who is the good guy here?

As for her Dothraki, I assume Dany is going to run into some problems with them next season. As we saw with the deal she made with Yara, Dany does not want the Dothraki to run wild in Westeros. In season 2, she had a firm hold on the Dothraki in Qarth. Maybe she can do the same again in Westeros. And Dany is not forcing any one to fight for her. She gave the unsullied their freedom and they chose to fight for her. Just like the Wildlings chose to fight for Jon. She earned their loyalty through her actions, not with her name.

6 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

So instead she decides her adventures aren't over and sets off to find what's out there. The bitter is that she's leaving her family and old life behind, but the sweet is that she headed off on a new adventure (her childhood dream) with the prospect of finding a place she belongs and can be happy again (her adult dream).

Sweet for Sansa would be that she becomes queen (her childhood dream) and finds peace and safety in her family home (her adult dream), but the bitter is that her parents and two brothers were murdered, she was kept hostage, beaten, forced into marriage (twice) and repeatedly raped in the process of getting there.

I can turn this around just as easily. The sweet part for Arya is reuniting with the family she has been trying to get to since season one and the bitter part would be having to settle down to a life she despised early on - marriage and children.  The sweet part for Sansa could be ending up with someone she loves (possibly the hound) and the bitter part would be her forever regretting betraying her family and losing them and Winterfell (If she sides with LF and survives).

To be honest, I don't see Sansa ever becoming queen. There's no path to her becoming queen other than through deceit and if she goes down that path, I don't see it lasting for long. Sansa lacks that one thing the rest of the Starks have - family loyalty. Which is why I don't see her in Winterfell long term.

Edited August 15, 2016 by anamika

[Hecate7]

GRRM's style is that at least one character who has earned a happy ending will die very near the ending of the story. Also, there will be an awful lot of graves for the few (or lone) survivor to put flowers on at the end.

There are usually lots of deaths near the end, so I'm not so much trying to figure out who will die, as figure out who besides Arya won't. Arya isn't going to die, but her survival is the sweet that must be balanced with a whole ton of bitter, such as her being the lone surviving Stark, or Winterfell existing at the expense of her permanent banishment, or some other really difficult situation.

I see no problem with Sansa becoming Queen AFTER Danaerys, if Jon Snow or Tyrion is King and she has to give Winterfell to someone else, like Arya or Bran, even if the path is by deceit. She could become Queen before Danaerys, if Baelish, Tyrion, or Theon is king and she marries partly to kill him, clearing the way for Dany, and dies herself as a result. I could see Sansa reuniting with Tyrion to win against Cersei, while Jon marries Dany for much the same reason, both realizing there's love in their convenient matches right before the deaths of Tyrion and Dany, who are IMO the characters marked for death. That plus the loss of an eye or a limb might entitle them to marry each other and live in relative happiness as long as they both firmly believe that Bran and Arya are dead, and name their kids after the Stark family.  I think San/San and Gendry/Arya are right out, as both are entirely too sweet.

[Eyes High]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

To be honest, I don't see Sansa ever becoming queen. There's no path to her becoming queen other than through deceit and if she goes down that path, I don't see it lasting for long. Sansa lacks that one thing the rest of the Starks have - family loyalty. Which is why I don't see her in Winterfell long term.

After Season 6, which ended with Jon being acclaimed KITN by the Northern lords with no thought to Sansa's claim, and with Sansa softening towards LF even as he warns her about Jon, I don't see Sansa ever becoming queen or ending up in Winterfell long term, either...which makes me wonder where she will end up, assuming she survives the series.

[Hook75]

I think at the end of the day, it is a question of who you are rooting for and who are your favorites.

Personally, I hope Gendry ends up on the Iron Throne. I also hope we won't lose any more Starks but if we must, I'm OK with it being Sansa.

[TxanGoddess]

posted by doram:

It is mind-boggling that Jaimie Lannister, sister-fucker and baby-crippler - who just last season threatened to have a newborn baby catapulted into the air, has somehow managed to become a heroic character but Dany, who literally frees slaves, is the grey one in this story. But that's the usual practice of fandom reaction towards main female characters who are given the kind of story arcs that are reserved for men.

Whoa!  Only one person in this thread so far has posted that.  And if you look at fandom overall, there are just as many people who defend Danerys from a feminist perspective as those who seemingly judge her more harshly than male characters.

I think that you can look at about half of the main characters on the show as reasonably taking the viewpoint of "we'll never be safe unless/until ..." towards the fighting and killing they engage in / promote others to engage in on their behalf.  Your post does a great job of highlighting why Danerys would feel that way.

There's a speculation I'll make on her behalf though.  That part of her "bitter" will be not being wanted as she seems to expect she will be by the Westerosi common folk due to her bringing a foreign force on shore.  Sort of like Jon with the wildlings really, though I don't expect she'll die for it.   

[TxanGoddess]

hook75, I think that the show's opening resulted in a lot of "the Starks had me at hello" among fans who weren't as exposed to the book previously.  

doram, I don't think the fandom misogyny doesn't exist at all, but I guess I see it more as a result of the storytelling efforts of D&D than of a flaw in the viewers themselves.  They don't tend to have a very woman friendly presentation in general imo.   

[Advance35]

Quote

I could see Sansa reuniting with Tyrion to win against Cersei, while Jon marries Dany for much the same reason, both realizing there's love in their convenient matches right before the deaths of Tyrion and Dany, who are IMO the characters marked for death.

I question whether "love" is something Sansa is capable of anymore.  I think she can understand "common ground" and "alliance" but I don't think she has it inside her to love anyone.   At her core, I do think she's very cold (and this isn't a knock against her, it's something I like about her character).  Just about everyone else that rotates the realm of protagonist in this story has lost their family and been forced to build another.  Jon did that, Dany has, Bran with Meera and the others,  Arya with Gendry, etc, but I don't think Sansa has done that.   Everything seems to be internalized and I don't think she truly trust anyone but herself.  So her falling in love with Tyrion, Jon or anyone else is off the table, if I had to guess.

I would question if Jon had it in him to cut off Sansa's recourse for mischief by killing LF.  One could say a good leader would cut off the head of the snake sincem, while I don't doubt there would be discontent, I can't see Sansa causing trouble for Jon on her own.   But I don't think he has that ruthlessness in him (at least not yet).   She'd side with Jon over LF in a heartbeat but the side she's really on, is her own.   I'm hoping we get some insight on her (and LF's for that matter) thoughts with regards to the White Walkers.

In terms of who deserves what, I think that is purely subjective and one poster can't change another posters mind on that because whom readers relate to or enjoy isn't universally formulaic (this board certainly demonstrates that).  The only sympathies that may have any influence is GRRM (and the Mrs. apparently).  Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Arya and Bran are the main characters of this story, so I do think we will start to see the various plot lines funnel to and through them (in my particular case I find 4 out of the 5 appallingly tedious and have found the story more engaging through the lenses of  the B/Supporting characters.  At this point, while I can't account for how, I do feel like both LF and Sansa will live through Season 7.   I don't know how and I can't say for sure that they will be working together, but I see both being alive going into Season 8.

[anamika]

53 minutes ago, TxanGoddess said:

I don't think the fandom misogyny doesn't exist at all, but I guess I see it more as a result of the storytelling efforts of D&D than of a flaw in the viewers themselves.  They don't tend to have a very woman friendly presentation in general imo.   

I do think that it's weird that the powerful, ambitious women who want to actively change their circumstances and future (Dany, Arya) are often written off by fandom as being doomed to die or end up being too traumatized to be happy, while the female character, who was used as a pawn for 5 seasons and often falls for manipulation and fake truths (Sansa), gets the happy ending. Don't ambitious, take charge, pro-active women deserve happy endings? When it comes down to it, there is not much different between Dany and Jon Snow. But Jon gets to be a hero while Dany is either a mad queen or an antagonist.

I can understand wanting Sansa to come out on top after getting pushed around by everyone. But like Doram says, why do people want Dany to fail or for Arya to leave Winterfell because she suffers from PTSD? Don't Jon and Sansa suffer from PTSD? I don't see anyone suggesting that they would leave WF and wander in Essos. Why can't Arya be queen in the North? Why can't she have a romance, marry and have children?

I am loving that Dany is currently the most powerful character on the show. She has the military fire power and her small council is just amazing - Tyrion, Varys, Olenna. She should be able to do something that the Starks have been unable to do for 6 seasons - kick the Lannisters out of KL.  Arya and her assassin skills are getting rid of garbage like the Freys. I want her to go after Cersei next, but maybe Dany will get there first. Either way, I will be cheering these characters on.

Edited August 15, 2016 by anamika

[Hook75]

I would love for Arya to get a happy ending (she is my fave),  but I think other than finishing her list, I am unclear on what she wants or consider as a happy ending for herself.

I do hope Gendry and her meet again.

[TxanGoddess]

I posted earlier that I think there's a certain resentment against fandoms that aren't necessarily evidenced within this thread.  That having been said, I can't answer for opinions that I don't hold, but I can do my best to speculate.

I'll address your Danerys/Jon comparison first, because that's the easiest to me. 

D&D are enormous Jon Snow fans from nearly every interview I've seen done with them.  I also get the feeling that they are super impressed with themselves for "discovering" Kit Harington.  That's not necessarily unfair, he is a talented actor, but I think what they like most is that he's apparently really good at all the physically bad ass stuff like sword fighting. 

Speaking of bad ass stuff, they also practically cream themselves anytime Jason Momoa (Khal Drogo) comes up. 

So not only do I think they are already predisposed to Jon Snow, I think that they personally don't find Danerys as compelling now as when her storyline tied her to a male character they enjoyed.  And I think that their lack of interest has made it onto the screen since then, which I feel is a big component of the "boring" and "Mary Sue" accusations that get thrown around about her that don't come up for Jon Snow.   

I think D&D also have a large part to do with shaping the answers to some of your other inquiries too, but I'll leave this for now because I'm about to get off work and have to switch computers. :)

Edited August 15, 2016 by TxanGoddess

[Hecate7]

On 8/15/2016 at 11:20 AM, anamika said:

I can understand wanting Sansa to come out on top after getting pushed around by everyone. But like Doram says, why do people want Dany to fail or for Arya to leave Winterfell because she suffers from PTSD? Don't Jon and Sansa suffer from PTSD? I don't see anyone suggesting that they would leave WF and wander in Essos. Why can't Arya be queen in the North? Why can't she have a romance, marry and have children?

 

Because Arya never expressed a desire for a romance, marriage, or children. From a very early age she's been clear that those things are not for her. To assume that she's just a little girl who doesn't know what she's talking about, and just hasn't met the right boy yet, is very insulting to the character. Why even bother making characters like her, if the message is always going to be, "but then she grew out of it and settled down with a nice boy and was a great little wife and mother?" I would gag if GRRM actually has Arya end up at Winterfell with 4.5 children. What happens when the kids start playing dress-up with Mommy's stolen face collection?

Gendry is a blacksmith, raised as a noble bastard. I would not wish a wife like Arya on anyone, let alone Gendry of all people, who has really done nothing to deserve to be married to a girl whose fantasies all revolve around cutting throats. He's more of a match for Sansa, but I can't see her turning her back on her ambitions for love now. If she could, he at his forge and she at her needle would be a fine pair. 

It's not the PTSD. Everybody in this show has PTSD. It's that to make that ending fit, Arya would have to completely and utterly change as a character, inside and out. It's not about not wanting a victory for Arya, it's about not wanting her entire characterization completely invalidated.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Hecate7

[Leila6]

Quote

Even fan favourite - Jon Snow - murders a 10-year-old boy who witnessed his entire family being tortured and murdered by wildlings. Jon brought raping, pillaging wildlings South of the wall to fight against the raping, pillaging Boltons in Winterfell.

That's not really accurate. Jon didn't murder Olly--he executed him for the crime of murdering Jon himself, and he felt hella conflicted and guilty about it. Putting aside whatever personal feelings you may have about capital punishment, would you call the doctor hired to perform a lethal injection a "murderer"? No, because he was carrying out state-sanctioned punishment. That's the same as what Jon did. Yes, he had the option to pardon Olly or give him a lesser punishment, which he did not take, but that doesn't mean hanging Olly was "murder." It was an execution in accordance with the legal standards of the realm.

To your second point, while it's not confirmed on the show one way or the other, I don't believe the wildlings were raping and pillaging after Jon let them through the Wall. He gave them farmlands in the Gift so they could settle and eke out a living. Since they were trying to keep a low-profile, I highly doubt they were raiding any nearby villages at that point.

[Leila6]

Yes, I can accept that our favorite characters make mistakes, but I still do not agree with your characterization of Olly's execution, and I don't believe it's a slippery slope. I think your arguments contain a bunch of false equivalences. If you're looking for examples of Jon making mistakes, there are much better ones to choose from, like charging the field at the Battle of the Bastards (which put not only his life in danger of being slaughtered, but also all of his men's, since they had to abandon their battle strategy to go after him).

Edited August 18, 2016 by Leila6

[paigow]

On 14/08/2016 at 6:42 PM, Chris24601 said:

See, I don't think Arya heading off "West of Westeros" (which could seriously be a book title)

Costanza: Jerry, I'm writing a book - West of Westeros

Jerry: What's it about?

Costanza: Arya sails off the map...

Jerry: What happens?

Costanza: Nothing. She sails for 20 years... Nada

[TxanGoddess]

I agree that flawed characters are more interesting including Jon.  But I have to say his execution of Slynt early on as LC was the meaty hint of darkness in Jon to me, not Olly so much.

If you want to take things from a legal look there's a good case on both perspectives of Olly killing Jon and vice versa.  I mean Olly participated in an all out mutiny, so that does serve a pretty big threat to later commanders ... child or not, and not many leaders would reasonably leave a knife out there aimed at their successors back.

But Jon killed Janos Slynt almost from his ego really.  Okay sure he tried to be defiant of Jon too; but he had knuckled back under.  He was shaping up to be a general troublemaker but that's a whole lot of somewhere else and later on to merit a death sentence.  No what seemed to get John's goat was basically being talked back to and called out as a bastard.

Just a randon added note on Jon flaws ....

[TxanGoddess]

I'm okay with his murder because I'm watching GOT to begin with lol!

Yeah, agreed, killing him wasn't the only way of handling him for sure.  The one bit I'll disagree with is the "if the next LC sees a 10 year-old as a threat ..."

10 Year-Olds who mutiny and get away with it grow up to be adults who got away with it once before. 

But I think Jon killed him mostly because he was pissed and had his feelings hurt.  JMHO. 

[Chris24601]

On 8/15/2016 at 6:43 PM, Hecate7 said:

Because Arya never expressed a desire for a romance, marriage, or children. From a very early age she's been clear that those things are not for her. To assume that she's just a little girl who doesn't know what she's talking about, and just hasn't met the right boy yet, is very insulting to the character. Why even bother making characters like her, if the message is always going to be, "but then she grew out of it and settled down with a nice boy and was a great little wife and mother?" I would gag if GRRM actually has Arya end up at Winterfell with 4.5 children. What happens when the kids start playing dress-up with Mommy's stolen face collection?

This is precisely why I think "West of Westeros" and her desire to see what is there was dropped like a big heavy anvil by Arya this last season. It gives the character a tangible goal that we can then see her reach at the end of the story and know that her sailing off to the west is something that the character wants for herself. Its just so pointed a remark that truly comes out of nowhere that I don't see how it could be anything other than foreshadowing Arya's ending on the show.

Its also a goal that fits the character she has been shown to be on the show; one who started out not wanting to be some princess married off to a prince and who has been depicted as virtually asexual as the series has progressed (as in she has shown no romantic interest in anyone of either gender).

Based on some comments from the show-runners I'm of the mind that the show is pretty much going to give the survivors the "everything you wanted in the worst possible way" style endings. Sansa will be a storybook queen like she first wanted, but only after she's stopped wanting it for its own sake because she lost practically her entire family in the process and the people who write the storybooks will leave out all the horrible stuff. Jon will become a storybook hero and Ned 2.0, but only after horrible sacrifices cause him to give up his heroic ideals, his own death and resurrection, finding out he's not even Ned's son and, again, the storybooks whitewashing all the horrors of war from his story. Arya will go off and have her grand adventures, but only because her life has left her so emotionally scarred that she can't imagine any other sort of life.

Each will find some measure of happiness in their endings, but not in the way they first expected. For Jon I think it will be the peace of ruling during a quiet post-war period and of the simple joys of family. For Sansa I think it will be in her appreciation of home and hearth and what it is to be a Stark and in being a mother to the next generation. For Arya it will be in how she helps people who are unaware of and cannot judge her by the girl she was, but only the person she is now. (I've left Bran out of these because his magical nature makes his final fate too dependent upon the future of magic to guess without knowing what that future is... if this is the end of magic then it'll probably be merging with a tree somewhere to preserve the past... if its the rebirth of magic then it could be as a Merlin type figure offering wisdom... or something else entirely).

The only real question in my mind is whether Arya's anvil drop came from GRRM's notes or whether it was something D&D came up with because they wanted to give a fan favorite character a better ending than the books were going to deliver (i.e. Martin could have decided to kill her off near the end of the story as a final tragic sacrifice).

In terms of the story's ending for the other characters it probably matters little whether Arya dies in a manner where it is not confirmed or if she sails off into the sunset on another adventure... she'd still be gone from their lives in a way that is never fully resolved. But in terms of encouraging Arya fans to buy Blu-Rays and special edition boxed sets and re-watch the series when it airs in syndication (all of which the producers get a cut of), sending Arya off on an unspecified adventure with the hope of finding peace for herself is loads better than having her kill some critically important target and then succumb to wounds sustained in battle with her body never found because its in some mass grave all "Glory"-style.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Chris24601

[illuminata]

Anyone suspect John killed Olly because the fans overwhelmingly wanted Olly killed?