S01.E01: Winter Is Coming

[Anothermi]

WARNING!!! This thread was created for an Unsullied RE-WATCH after the end of Season 6 and will contain SPOILERS.

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Episode Synopsis: (re-watch version)

Meet the WhiteWalkers! ... and the Starks ... and the Baratheons ... and the Lannisters ... and other startup info

 

Edited July 4, 2016 by Anothermi
Add Unsulled Rules & links & silly synopsis

[90PercentGravity]

Ned is surprisingly malleable. Even though he executed the deserter, he still took his warning to heart. Then he acquiesced when Jon Snow wanted to save the direwolves and regarding becoming the Hand. 

I felt sorry for King Robert's horse. 

[Pallas]

No wonder we got hooked. What a work of world-building, right from the start.  And, yet, what guts it took to set out a cold opening (hee) in the frozen woods, with three black-suited redshirts, that awful massacre, and then ice zombies. If the credits hadn't been so rousing, I'm not sure I would have kept on watching to see what then immediately gripped me: that family. They were so human, so credible, the characters (and actors) not seeming to know they were in a sword-and-sorcery genre saga. The conviction behind the entire production, the trust in the story they were telling: I did feel that at once. 

Young! I'd forgotten the war had only been over for 17 years. So Robb was 18 or so (conceived before the war was over), Jon no more than 17 (born just after the war was over), Sansa 14, Arya 12-ish, Bran 10 and Rickon...8 or 9.  Those family scenes give such heft to Sansa's prayers at the garden in King's Landing, and her regrets at the weirwood tree after she returned.  

Robb: a confident young lord, princely, and still his mother's son, in charge of the three youngest. Not allowing Theon to jape at Jon, but not above teasing Jon himself. 

Sansa: in retrospect, it's easy to see that she was the outsider among them -- something shimpy said, quite early -- a girl not fulfilled by how much she pleased, how good she was at being what she should be.  

Arya: young enough to be given her head, to be indulged, not quite yet troubling in how little she interest or promise she showed in the only future allowed her. 

Bran: a boy of contrasts, mischievous then solemn by turn, and already a loner, a wanderer.

Rickon: sits on a saddle, stands by his mother and not with his siblings, doesn't speak.

Theon: Not a bastard, anyway!, he'd have us know; and what got broken into Reek is there, in his eagerness to help Ned kill the deserter or kill the pups, to voice Catelyn's rejection of Jon.

Jon: Asks "Lord Stark" to save the orphaned children of the mother who died in the south. Good call, Jon Snow. Then attacks the target dummy like the Watch assassins will attack him..   

Tyrion: Deeply unserious. 

Jaime: Seemingly no more than the Queen's very handsome and cocky brother (older or younger than she?; it's hard to tell). In cahoots with her about something he's not too worried about but she is. With Ned, Jaime's a mirror of Theon: more openly resentful and much more secretly uncertain and admiring, but it's there, the hold Ned has on him. He likes to give his brother whores! And to -- oh. I see.  "The things I do for love." Nicholaj Coster-Waldau's flippant delivery, as much as the words, made me believe that Jaime was marked for redemption.  

Cersei: Beautiful and dignified, not yet a drunk, allowing Robert to do her drinking for her, so she can hate him for that too. Not yet bitter in his presence in public, or unambiguously caustic to her inferiors: she makes an effort, even if it shows. Just that bald question to Sansa and one line to Catelyn -- nominally about Sansa -- "A shame to waste such beauty here." 

Robert: His bathos about Lyanna -- while Ned stared miserably at the floor -- reminded me then and now of Tony Soprano's telling his sister that he buried the lover she murdered "On a hill...Overlooking a little river... with pine cones all around."  A real giveaway, and a brilliant choice by Mark Addy. 

Ned: Had me from his shrug at Robert's midsection. 

Littlefinger!  And his goddamned lying message from Lysa, which tipped the scales in Ned's decision.

Off goes the royal party, on a boar hunt.  

Edited July 4, 2016 by Pallas

[90PercentGravity]

Quote

Jaime: Seemingly no more than the Queen's very handsome and cocky brother (older or younger than she?; it's hard to tell

They're twins. Arya said it when he took off his helmet. 

Speaking of helmets. The Hound's didn't look big enough to fit his huge head and all that hair. 

[Anothermi]

I have to agree with others about re-watching this 1st episode. One of it's charms it that nothing feels terrible - yet.

Opening scene, without the tension of not knowing what's going on, I really enjoyed the winter scenery! From what we know of the Night's Watch back then I speculate that:

1st to Die was likely from a Noble family, but from the South. Skilled in combat and with enough honour to accept his fate as 2nd, 3rd or 4th born son... but completely skeptical, perhaps even cynical, about the supposed history of why the Wall and the Night's Watch exist. He'd be of the opinion he was guarding against Wildlings only, not grumpkins and snarks and fairly tale WhiteWalkers.

2nd to Die I'd guess was from the North. He was willing to believe the young ranger, and at least take precautions.

I'd also guess the one who figuratively "lost his head" (at least initially) was also from the north. Except for fleeing in terror, not a wiley bone in his body. ;-)

Definitely felt like the WW were practicing their skills at creating zombonis. Baby steps after what? multi-thousand years?

Starks:

Bran's archery training rang so true as a call.. forward, I guess, to his own vision of Benjen training with Ned in that same courtyard...  and showed how much remained the same after Ned came home from the wars. And I am impressed with what a good job TPTB have done at drawing out everyone's personality in such a short time frame. Ned in the crypt mirroring Bran's "tell" of looking at his feet as he committed a lie-by-omission to his friend Robert. He must have always been uncomfortable in his presence since making that promise to his sister.

King's Landing:

Beautiful opening scene of King's Landing with the Red Keep on the left overlooking the bay and the Sept on the far right. I couldn't help but see the gaping hole the Sept has just become. It also struck me how far apart they are/were and that Cersei's walk-of-shame was that entire distance! Interesting difference to recent important deaths was that Jon Aaron was laying in State in the Throne Room, not the Sept like Joffrey and Myrcella. (you could see the Iron Throne below the stained glass window.) And now I'm curious about those glass jars with things in them near the head of his funeral pyre. Not that I think they are important, but "inquiring minds" and all.

Jaime's line to Cersei's suggestion that HE should be Hand of the King. "Their days are too long and their lives are too short." Prophetic now. Even more, now, I think we are in danger of losing Tyrion.

Winterfell:

Love the call backs. This episode we hear about a raven bringing news, then we see a black raven flying towards Winterfell over a green landscape. The last episode of Season 6 we see a WHITE raven making the same approach over white ground. The first to announce "Robert is Coming! (and Jon Aaron is dead)" and the second to announce "Winter really, really, It's Official! Has Come!" Lovely bookends.

I also love the glimpse of red leaves of the Weirwood tree to the left in this 1st episode.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Anothermi
grammer

[Pallas]

Ah, I knew they were twins, but forgot Arya said it for our benefit. The Hound's helmet was amazing; I'd forgotten he wore something that ornate. Do you think it was Tywin's idea, and he hated it? 

49 minutes ago, 90PercentGravity said:

Ned is surprisingly malleable. Even though he executed the deserter, he still took his warning to heart. Then he acquiesced when Jon Snow wanted to save the direwolves and regarding becoming the Hand. 

Great point. Not at all inflexible with the children either, though feeling the need to underline teachings. Bringing Bran to the execution (which was, in a way, a thoughtful gesture, after Bran's failed archery lesson -- upstaged by his sister, just as young Ned had been); asking Bran if he knew why Ned had to perform the act; laying down the law about the puppies...like Rickard Stark, advising Ned before he set off to apprentice with Jon Arryn.  

[Anothermi]

53 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Young! I'd forgotten the war had only been over for 17 years. So Robb was 18 or so (conceived before the war was over), Jon no more than 17 (born just after the war was over), Sansa 14, Arya 12-ish, Bran 10 and Rickon...8 or 9.

I think Sansa told Cersei she was 13, but despite that I agree with your general age layout. Theon would be 17 or 18 too.

53 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Jon: Asks "Lord Stark" to save the orphaned children of the mother who died in the south. Good call, Jon Snow.

And from what we learned E10 of this season, harkens back to him being an orphan of a mother who died in the South who Ned also saved. There seems to be so many of these and after 6 years it's satisfying to see the links being made.

53 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Jaime: Seemingly no more than the Queen's very handsome and cocky brother (older or younger than she?; it's hard to tell)

I thought you were asking who was born first. Usually the bigger stronger twin arrives first, no? But this story is nothing if not metaphorical.

53 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Cersei: Beautiful and dignified, not yet a drunk, allowing Robert to do her drinking for her, so she can hate him for that too. Not yet openly bitter in his presence or unambiguously caustic to her inferiors: she makes an effort, even if it shows. Just that too-probing question to Sansa and one line to Catelyn -- nominally about Sansa -- "A shame to waste such beauty here." 

I think this is the only time we got to see Cersei - out of her element - and slightly vulnerable. She really did descend quickly into bitterness and Ned's... sympathy? pity?... only made things worse for her.

53 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Ned: Had me from his shrug at Robert's midsection. 

Littlefinger!  And his goddamned lying message from Lysa, which tipped the scales in Ned's decision.

Hee! Ned. Same here.

The Littlefinger deception. Yes. And add Catelyn's reminder to Ned of what happened when his father and brother were called to King's Landing by the (Mad) King...

Could that, too, have been someone else's scheming? to destabilize the Targaryen rule? Tywin perhaps?

45 minutes ago, 90PercentGravity said:

The Hound's didn't look big enough to fit his huge head and all that hair. 

I noticed that the Hound seemed to have a lot MORE hair and a lot LESS scarring.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Anothermi

[90PercentGravity]

Should these threads be labeled as rewatch threads so that future unsullied don't get spoiled? 

[Anothermi]

6 minutes ago, 90PercentGravity said:

Should these threads be labeled as rewatch threads so that future unsullied don't get spoiled? 

I could put a warning - along with the Unsullied Only info. It IS (slightly) possible that even after 6 years of unrelenting media coverage that there could still be someone who starts watching the series and is Unsullied. I could put it as the 1st thing in each post - or perhaps in the Title?  S01E0?: Name REWATCH.

[Anothermi]

But back to the show discussion.

It was so strange to see little Richon all snuggled up to his mother when the King et al arrived - instead of at the end of the age line on the other side. Especially knowing that he was about to be completely abandoned by her when her second youngest nearly died. I guess it's the plight of every sibling when another sibling is struck down by some debilitating disease. All the time and attention is diverted to the ill one. It's understandable, but it just makes this young one's story so sad.

[gingerella]

Wow. So, I barely know where to start...It is late so I will start now and finish up in the light of morning...

My first thought was YESSSS, that opening scene is so delicious, visually, and from a filmmaking perspective, it reminded me of that initial moment after they come out of the tunnel and I said to myself, I will be watching this series for the long haul if all the cinematography is as good as this first scene is. What a way to come out swinging!  the next thing I thought was , WOW, they are all so young, so innocent looking, there is so much less awfulness in this first episode, before too many heads were lost, too much blood shed, too many defiled...

NOTE: When I saw Ros I worried that I will not be able to watch those episodes where she is treated horribly by Joffrey. There are going to be some episodes I will have to fast forward through most of because I cannot re live them. 

Okay, where was I? Oh yes, Jon's love and care for his siblings was so gentle and nice to see again. Robb was much more direct and less caring in how he interacted with his siblings, still nice but not like Jon. When Benjen rode into Winterfell I kept thinking, NOOOOOO, don't go outside the Wall again, please...I liked his interaction with Ned re the killed Ranger and what he had reported seeing. And I remember so many seasons after that saying aloud here at our Spitball Wall, if only Ned had taken action back then and not gone to KL, if only....

Cersei...I think she was the most harsh to see, knowing what she has become in S6, compared to when she was an actual Queen, as in wife of he King. She really has been so humiliated publicly, but then again, I assume that sort of behavior was not uncommon in this world so should I feel badly for her? Yes, Robert was a pig of a man, but women we're belongings so what did she expect? that said, she was so devoid of emotion even back then, the only difference was she pretended to eek out small donations of tidings, like her fake smiled compliments to Sansa on her seamstress abilities...I shuddered to hear her talk to Sansa as if she might take care of her as a future Daughter in law, knowing what's to come.

The Direwolves broke my heart, knowing most of their fates...

Tyrio was so unloveable to me back then, a complete waste of space. I even think I may have said that once at th Wall back at that other place. I cannot believe what a different man he was when last we saw him become Dany's hand!

And speaking of Dany, I was reminded of what a dickhead Viserys was, man, I hated that dude. Such a creepy, cold bastard. Dany looking at first mesmerized if only for a moment when she first met Drogo, then terrified as she walked to him and her white horse. my god she looked so fragile! 

Overall, I was blown away at how so many people seemed "happy" when we all know what is coming. Oh, one thing that struck me the moment the episode began, was that I noticed all the snow already at Castle Black. I felt surprised by that, because I feel like it's taken a full 5.5 seasons to really see much snow at Winterfell, so it feels like there shouldn't have been snow at Castle Black yet, but I guess there is snow there all th time maybe? The Wall itself is made of ice, yes? Or am I misremembering that? If so, I guess it makes sense that it is always winter there in some form...more later...

[Pallas]

8 hours ago, 90PercentGravity said:

Ned is surprisingly malleable.

Quoting again, 90%, because that's so astute, and gives us a throughline for watching Ned over the rest of the season. Seeing how and when Ned the Hand -- isolated and beleaguered -- acts as if he has only his stern precepts duty to guide him. The traditions his father imparted (and probably mostly to Brandon, the heir). Yet we know that even in King's Landing, Ned would take some unorthodox stances, dictated by his personal creed.

8 hours ago, Anothermi said:

And I am impressed with what a good job TPTB have done at drawing out everyone's personality in such a short time frame. Ned in the crypt mirroring Bran's "tell" of looking at his feet as he committed a lie-by-omission to his friend Robert. He must have always been uncomfortable in his presence since making that promise to his sister.

The Tell! Great observation, and another thing to watch for. Robert said it had been nine years since the two men had met: not in the North, so probably in King's Landing for some state occasion. I imagine Jon was left behind at Winterfell -- on Catelyn's order, but with Ned's approval, for different reasons. 

7 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I think this is the only time we got to see Cersei - out of her element - and slightly vulnerable. She really did descend quickly into bitterness and Ned's... sympathy? pity?... only made things worse for her.

She was written and portrayed beautifully as the privileged but disillusioned, dependent and acrid wife of an alcoholic. A woman without means or power in her own name, tied for life to a man who led two lives in which she played no part: a (supreme) authority among men and in public, and a fool to drink and lechery, in what might have been his intimate hours. And you're right: Ned's understanding only made Cersei feel exposed, and set off her defenses. Setting up as well as foretelling her refusal to take the compromise Ned offered, when he really was in a position to expose her.

8 hours ago, Anothermi said:

And add Catelyn's reminder to Ned of what happened when his father and brother were called to King's Landing by the (Mad) King...

Could that, too, have been someone else's scheming? to destabilize the Targaryen rule? Tywin perhaps?

Wow.  What a great spec. Tywin the Hand, suggesting that his king summon the Starks to King's Landing, knowing how that might go. Was Tywin present in the Throne Room with Jaime when Aerys had the Starks burnt alive, or had he already absented himself to Casterly Rock? All those pieces in place: the Targareyn dragons extinct, the crown prince fled with Lyanna, outraging Dorne and the North and their allies by marriage among the great Houses...And meanwhile, Tywin decamped with his army, already mustered and prepared to march to King's Landing and "save" Aerys...Did Littlefinger take his lessons from Tywin's nearly successful coup?

7 hours ago, Anothermi said:

It's understandable, but it just makes this young one's story so sad.

Rickon's short life was cracked into halves, like a walnut.

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

Jon's love and care for his siblings was so gentle and nice to see again. Robb was much more direct and less caring in how he interacted with his siblings, still nice but not like Jon.

No, you're right, and how deftly that was depicted. Robb like the firstborn heir, with a role to play; Jon with no role, no name, only the sufferance that Ned might duly withdraw at any time, and Catelyn barely tolerated.

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

When Benjen rode into Winterfell I kept thinking, NOOOOOO, don't go outside the Wall again, please...

Benjen the ghost at the feast. But back then full of life and wry, kind, advising and teasing his older brother, the reluctant lord. And to Jon: "You'll have no family. You'll never father children."  And, "The Wall's not going anywhere."  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

She really has been so humiliated publicly, but then again, I assume that sort of behavior was not uncommon in this world so should I feel badly for her? Yes, Robert was a pig of a man, but women we're belongings so what did she expect?

Bloodlines mattered, though, and codes of honor: it's impolitic for lords to publicly humiliate their ladies, the daughters and sisters of their allies or bannerman, and the mothers of their heirs. Of the lords we've seen with their wives, only Robert was so crude and rash. Not Ned, Drogo, Robb, Tommen, or even Roose, Joffrey or Ramsey. Of course of these, only Ned had been married for any time, but I think only the deranged Joffrey and Ramsay would have matched or outdone Robert. The lessons of Jon Arryn were water into sand with that one. As monarch, Robert probably enjoyed discomfiting Lord Arryn, even as he claimed to love and honor him -- and at the same time, wished Arryn, or someone, could save him from himself. 

Cersei thinks that could have been her. But from what we've heard from both her siblings and seen for ourselves, Cersei was an imperious, self-serving youth, good for intimidating Robert, perhaps, but not for coaching him, not for speaking to his better self.

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

And speaking of Dany, I was reminded of what a dickhead Viserys was, man, I hated that dude. Such a creepy, cold bastard. Dany looking at first mesmerized if only for a moment when she first met Drogo, then terrified as she walked to him and her white horse. my god she looked so fragile! 

It's a testament to Robert's misrule -- and the rumors about his children -- that people as smart as Varys could even consider a restoration campaign on behalf of Viserys. And his sister from "The Glass Menagerie." 

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, Pallas said:

Bloodlines mattered, though, and codes of honor: it's impolitic for lords to publicly humiliate their ladies, the daughters and sisters of their allies or bannerman, and the mothers of their heirs.

Yes, you're right Pallas, and I almost said as much last night but then I thought, ultimately, Cersei had nobody to come to her aid, did she? It was made clear later on to us, how little Tywin thought of his daughter, so I doubt he'd care if she told him, "Father, he is mistreating me..." The Tywin Lannister we know wouldn't have even half a fuck to give over his daughter's unhappiness, because she was merely a means to an end for Tywin. I think when his wife died his humanity died with her...so it's odd that we never knew Tywin as caring in any way, only cold hearted and hateful. And spiteful even, towards his remaining children because: He knew his Twins were engaged in twincest and it no doubt embarrassed him to hell and back about the rumors but what could he do about it? And Tyrion because, well, he's a physical bastard and responsible for killing his own mother in Tywin's eyes. So yeah, at the point where we meet Cersei, I don't think she has anyone as her ally other than her brother-lover, Jamie. He is the only person, quite literally, in the entire world, who gives two shits about her welfare. I saw it more clearly last night. The first time around I didn't know Cersei and just thought, what an uptight bitch this one is, but in retrospect, she is broken in so many ways, with Jamie as her only ally. And if you flip that duo around, Jamie has only Cersei as his ally because he is more or less mocked as a Kingslayer, but negatively for killing Aerys in the back, and his father again probably has no respect for him because of the rumors so...that forces the two of them to make a pact with the devil, them against the world. C+J forevah...or until Cersei goes mad herself...

Rickon was sad to watch...makes me wonder if the books tell a more fleshed out story about that kid, he was but a cute blip on our radar. Walnuts indeed! And Bran, he was so fragile even before his fall, wasn't he? Fragile of both body and mind. Wirey and able to climb and gamble about on very dangerous walls, more like a fragile little monkey though, not a future Lord of Winterfell. He was timid, shy, soft spoken, more of an introvert, and more like Jon than Robb. I wonder what it was that connected him to Root Dude...because the visions will start, but it cant be because of his fall, that doesnt' make sense because its' totally random.

ETA:

Other musings I noticed this go round...It took the royal party an entire month to reach Winterfell, that's what Cersei said when Robert announced he was immediately going to the crypts to visit Lyanna. "Why not freshen up and rest, we've been traveling for a month..."  I probably noticed that on first watch, but this time around it hit me that Robert, as the King, could easily have just summoned Ned to come to KL, without dragging his entire family and all that comes with it, all the way up to Winterfell! But did Robert do that solely because he wanted to visit Lyanna's grave, or was it to get his ass out of KL after Jon Arryn's death because he doesn't know who to trust? It seems that the latter wouldn't be the best reason to leave KL because surely someone could get to Robert and kill him more easily while traveling along the Kings Road, right?  So I have to assume he went up there mainly as an excuse to visit Lyanna's grave. And traveling allllll that way means Ned really couldn't refuse his request to become Hand of the King. If Robert had sent a raven or a messenger with that request, Ned could more easily have sent back a reply that things were up North and South of the Wall and that he had to decline....at least for the moment, but in person, he was backed into a corner now that I look at it from that perspective.

As for Ned being malleable and easily to persuade, I think the whole direwolf pups scene showed that Jon understands his father far better than any of his other children do. Why? Because he uses the pups as not only an obvious connection to House Stark's sigil, but also more subtly, IMO, as House Stark's strong connection to nature because they live in the North and it's far more wild up there, and because the religion of House Stark is deeply rooted (no pun intended but hehe anyway!) in the Old Gods and Weirwood trees, which are part of the North's natural surroundings. I think Jon showed his intuitive Stark blood in that scene, being able to, in the wink of an eye, immediately make the case for not killing the pups and instead nurturing them as an extension of the Stark children.  Go Jon! You ARE indeed a true Stark!

Edited July 4, 2016 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

The lessons of Jon Arryn were water into sand with that one. As monarch, Robert probably enjoyed discomfiting Lord Arryn, even as he claimed to love and honor him -- and at the same time, wished Arryn, or someone, could save him from himself.

So absolutely true. Ned and Robert - and perhaps Jon Aaron himself - were two peas in a pod. After winning the Rebellion, I can see them tossing dice, or flipping coins... and Robert coming out the LOSER who had to be King. I doubt that happened, but I don't doubt that the schemers for power deliberately chose Robert as Ned would have been a ruler that would engender (not just command) respect. Both, however, would be extremely vulnerable (malleable as 90% put it) to political machinations - just that Robert was even more so. As Pallas said:

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

It's a testament to Robert's misrule -- and the rumors about his children -- that people as smart as Varys could even consider a restoration campaign on behalf of Viserys.

 

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

My first thought was YESSSS, that opening scene is so delicious, visually, and from a filmmaking perspective, it reminded me of that initial moment after they come out of the tunnel and I said to myself, I will be watching this series for the long haul if all the cinematography is as good as this first scene is. What a way to come out swinging!

Yes to this^^. I'd forgotten how visually sumptuous that 1st scene was. That, and the tension, sucked you right into the story - despite giving so few clues as to what you were watching!

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

Wow.  What a great spec. Tywin the Hand, suggesting that his king summon the Starks to King's Landing, knowing how that might go. Was Tywin present in the Throne Room with Jaime when Aerys had the Starks burnt alive, or had he already absented himself to Casterly Rock? All those pieces in place: the Targareyn dragons extinct, the crown prince fled with Lyanna, outraging Dorne and the North and their allies by marriage among the great Houses...And meanwhile, Tywin decamped with his army, already mustered and prepared to march to King's Landing and "save" Aerys...Did Littlefinger take his lessons from Tywin's nearly successful coup?

Great lay out of what could have happened. I'm starting to read a book (I KNOW!) about WW I and all the things that led up to it and that could have - if handled differently - avoided that conflict. Sometimes change is people (see Littlefinger) taking advantage of circumstances to benefit themselves, and sometimes it is planned and organized.

Without being invested in the players as persons - with personalities - the story of Ned's father and brother, and it's aftermath, appears much the same as the story of Ned and family - and it's aftermath. History repeating itself.

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

Robert said it had been nine years since the two men had met: not in the North, so probably in King's Landing for some state occasion. I imagine Jon was left behind at Winterfell -- on Catelyn's order, but with Ned's approval, for different reasons. 

IIRC that "meeting" would have been the call to quell the Greyjoy Rebellion. I honestly can't see Ned leaving the North for a State occasion other than to fight. The is no "duty" to attend social functions in this world that I can see - unless your the one throwing the party.

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

The Tywin Lannister we know wouldn't have even half a fuck to give over his daughter's unhappiness, because she was merely a means to an end for Tywin

He certainly was very like Viserys in that. Perhaps a bit less crass... and with more smarts... but the sentiment that Viserys expressed to Dany? the same. (regarding everyone in Tywin's immediate and extended family)

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

I think when his wife died his humanity died with her...so it's odd that we never knew Tywin as caring in any way,

I used to think Tywin may have loved his wife and had a human side, but the more we saw and learned of him, the more we learned that he was driven by how he and his family were viewed, not who and how they actually were. The end always justified the means for him. Winning was all. He saw his father "weak". We likely would have seen him as a good man, willing to fight for his family but not to create fear and terror. I've come to think Tyrion helped his mother dodge a bullet. She got to see her (1st) children AS children and never had to watch as they got twisted and manipulated by her husband. Of course it IS possible she could have lived to be an evil Olenna type, but Olenna thrived because she was surrounded by incompetent men - her husband, her son and possibly her grandson. Highgarden seems to have been run by her and her skillfulness. That's why she pinned her hopes on her grand daughter.

 

But moving on to Pentos...

Illyrio called himself a Magister. He and the many other men who attended the "betrothal ceremony" all wore a uniform of sorts: white (ish) robe with orange, sleeveless over cloak. That is something that has never really been touched on since. A quick google search describes a magister as title given to scholars. Further, the term magisterium is used to describe the authority of the (Catholic) Church to determine the official and authoritative teachings. I currently don't see that term being relative to this story, but I CAN see Illyrio and his compatriots being a group of scholars dedicated to influencing their world's politics - for the betterment of all of course. That's what they all say isn't it.

He is a recurring - if rarely seen - character, and given the expanding scope of the Westeros game of thrones, I wonder a bit more about his/their involvement.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Anothermi
clarify

[gingerella]

4 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

We likely would have seen him as a good man, willing to fight for his family but not to create fear and terror. I've come to think Tyrion helped his mother dodge a bullet. She got to see her (1st) children AS children and never had to watch as they got twisted and manipulated by her husband. Of course it IS possible she could have lived to be an evil Olenna type,

Interesting take anothermi.  Your comments prompted a remembrance of something Tywin says later on...I cannot remember if it's on his death pot, or elsewhere, but he says something to Tyrion about Tyrion not being his blood...something like that. We will have to wait until the 4th season or so to see that play out but it reminds me here of the spec that Tyrion's father was not Tywin, and that comment would mean Tywin would know this. I cannot imagine Tywin Lannister putting up with a bastard son given, as you point out, how important other's opinions of the Lannisters seemed to be to Tywin. So I wonder...if Tywin's not Tyrion's father, who would that person be? Also, I cannot see anyone left that might know the answer to that question so it's rather moot in A Show at this point but still...begs the spec...perhaps saved until Tywin speaks those words?

Thank you for brining up Pentos! I totally meant to ask this last night...Is Illyrio the one who was walking with Varys in the crypts/dungeons of KL talking of dragons, or was that someone else? I thought it was Illyrio but cannot remember right now.  And, do we know what's going on with Illyrio whence last we left A Show last week? I don't remember anyone talking about him, nor seeing him, in many seasons now. I don't remember him being dead either, nor do I remember hearing anything about Pentos, though wouldn't Pentos be in the same general area as Mereen and the other Free Cities? I wonder what's going on with him and if he's still around, assuming I forgot he is dead...??? He definitely was a schemer watching him this time around. The way he defers to, and placates Viserys, when Viserys feels he's been dissed by Illyrio showed me last night that Illyrio clearly knows that Viserys is an idiot, and he, Illyrio, cannot possible feel Viserys is the best person to sit on the Iron Throne. Illyrio seems far to smart to think that.  So what was his reasoning to appear to help Viserys to the Throne? It's obvious that Viserys is a hot head who doesn't think before he speaks or acts, and that's not a good personality to have as a ruler (nor as a President so it seems America isn't much smarter right now than Westeros and the Free Cities were in whatever Dark Ages A Show takes place in!), so WHY would Illyrio be fawning over this inbred idiot as potential ruler of the Seven Kingdoms when he clearly does not appear to be malleable in any way?!  This viewing made Illyrio much more sinister to me.  He and Varys are forward thinkers, so what was the plan going to be if Viserys gained the Iron Throne? Unless he knew it wasn't Viserys, but Dany, who was meant to be atop that throne?

[Anothermi]

56 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Is Illyrio the one who was walking with Varys in the crypts/dungeons of KL talking of dragons, or was that someone else?

Yes, that was Illyrio. I noted that he recurs - but is rarely seen. I can't recall seeing him since the crypts/dungeons scene in KL.  BUT, his place was where Varys took Tyrion to escape from execution for Joff's death. Further, any mention of Pentos virtually means Illyrio's house because we've been shown nothing else in Pentos. Pretty sure he is not dead. I, too, loved the interplay with Viserys:

V - Is it true that they lie with their horses?

I - I wouldn't ask Khal Drogo.

V - Do you take me for a fool?

I - I take you for a King. King's lack the caution of common men. My apologies if I've given offense.

Like shooting fish in a barrel. I think we can agree that Viserys on the Iron Throne was NOT the endgame for Illyrio. Was he some kind of "seer"? Not enough information on him. I don't think we even know if he support one of the Religions.

I'm wondering about Varys connection with Illyrio. Did he train for something under Illyrio? He always seems welcome there but never seems actively engaged with Illyrio. Curious.

ETA: From the opening credits, Pentos is located in a lovely circular bay almost due east (and a little south) of King's Landing... and across the Narrow Sea of course. Except for the East / West positioning, very "France" to Westeros' "England".

Edited July 4, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

I think Illyrio needs to be added to the Milk Cartoon list, short as it is right now...

[Anothermi]

While hunting for the Illyrio scene I stopped on the Winterfell Feast. I think that is the ONLY happy feast we've seen. We start with the butchers in the kitchen and the rest of the staff running back and forth preparing stuff. There is lively, dance-able music being played somewhere - the Great Hall I suppose - and the guests all chatting among themselves. I think it was intended to evoke Medieval revels. I barely took it in when I first watched and still didn't on subsequent re-watches due to Robert's acting so boorishly (or was that boar-ishly?). But since then, we've seen tense formal "feasts" at King's Landing and the one at the Twins (shudder) where the music and everything else was boring and tinged with evil (the Rains of Castermere is NOT dance music). Joffrey's wedding feast was designed to insult as many people as possible. Can anyone remember another boisterous, tension free feast since this one? (Including Danerys wedding which only had 1 death which made it quite a boring affair.)

It gave a glimpse of the hustle and bustle of daily life of the regular denizens of the Keep. All those people's lives were disrupted as much as the Starks. Many of them were killed - either by Theon's gang... or Ramsey's. We sometimes get a glimpse of the impact of these callous wars on the regular folk, but not often. The carefree partying by all (excepting some the principal players) was a bit of a shock since it's been absent for the rest of the series.

Another shock that I completely forgot about was Beardless!Tyrion. I almost didn't recognize him. He really didn't have the gravitas that came with his beard later on. IIRC he acquired the beard after the battle of Blackwater when he was closeted away in the.... closet. I think he kept it from then on. Perhaps to try to hide his facial scar?

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

Your comments prompted a remembrance of something Tywin says later on...I cannot remember if it's on his death pot, or elsewhere, but he says something to Tyrion about Tyrion not being his blood...something like that.

I agree that a full discussion should be had when Tywin speaks those words, but this episode Tyrion let Jon know that "All dwarves are bastards in there father's eyes". I expect Tyrion was the 1st high born person that Jon had met who might rival Jon's family "condition" - being the outsider.  (although I'm also sure Emo!Jon made a lot of mental excuses to try to minimize Tyrion's pain vs his own.) ;-)

[gingerella]

I fear I will be driving you all crazy repeating myself during this re watch, but I am gobsmacked at how much the surviving characters have grown since S1E1, most in positive ways, but some, like Cersei, in a downward spiral.

[90PercentGravity]

Quote

Another shock that I completely forgot about was Beardless!Tyrion. I almost didn't recognize him. 

I forgot how awful his hair was the first season. 

[DirewolfPup]

The only other happy feast was the recent one at the Twins. The Jamie/Frey conquer party. That was pretty joyous. Ended with a needle scratch though.

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, DirewolfPup said:

The only other happy feast was the recent one at the Twins. The Jamie/Frey conquer party. That was pretty joyous. Ended with a needle scratch though.

I suppose technically speaking...but I always have a hard time with joyous and Twins/Freys in the same sentence, sort of an oxy moron! hehe...

[Pallas]

Powerful post at Monday 2:02, gingerella.  Some thoughts.  

On 7/4/2016 at 2:02 PM, gingerella said:

The Tywin Lannister we know wouldn't have even half a fuck to give over his daughter's unhappiness, because she was merely a means to an end for Tywin. I think when his wife died his humanity died with her...so it's odd that we never knew Tywin as caring in any way, only cold hearted and hateful.

For her unhappiness, no fucks at all; for her public humiliation...likely that would bother Tywin, because it would imply the Crown's disrespect to House Lannister. But Tywin wasn't present to witness, and rumors of such disrespect...these he could decide to ignore. File away, but ignore.

On 7/4/2016 at 2:02 PM, gingerella said:

at the point where we meet Cersei, I don't think she has anyone as her ally other than her brother-lover, Jamie. He is the only person, quite literally, in the entire world, who gives two shits about her welfare. I saw it more clearly last night.

It's painful to see. Cersei and Jaime were the living pawns of Tywin's dynastic fantasies, and he had no time for their individuality. Cersei seems a willing if unwitting victim, in that early on she embraced Tywin's vision of her as a future consort and mother to kings. Jaime -- who Tywin said cared too much what people thought of him -- refused to play his part, only too aware of what Tywin thought of him. 

Cersei? I've been assuming that Prince Rhaegar was the prince that young Cersei hoped to marry (though I suppose it could have been Doran or Oberyn: we know Oberyn and Elia visited Casterly Rock when they were young; it might even be Elia who's with Cersei and the witch). We don't know why Prince Rhaegar didn't marry his sister (perhaps he didn't have one?) or married Elia instead of Cersei. Did Cersei fail Tywin in that, or did Tywin the Hand urge Aerys to cement an alliance with the Martells? Did that alliance perhaps enrich House Lannister; was Tywin willing to wait another generation for the Lannisters' ascendance, or did he foresee the rebellion? 

On 7/4/2016 at 2:02 PM, gingerella said:

He was timid, shy, soft spoken, more of an introvert, and more like Jon than Robb. I wonder what it was that connected him to Root Dude...

Maybe young Bran was already on his way to becoming a mystic or Maester? Not that his family would have seen it coming, necessarily. But we saw how Luwin watched over Bran, and instantly knew that Bran was lying when he told Cat he was done with climbing (but said nothing, only smiling when Cat revealed that she too recognized his tell). The Maesters seem to recognize their own.

On 7/4/2016 at 2:02 PM, gingerella said:

I think the whole direwolf pups scene showed that Jon understands his father far better than any of his other children do. Why? Because he uses the pups as not only an obvious connection to House Stark's sigil, but also more subtly, IMO, as House Stark's strong connection to nature

I love this. And perhaps Lyanna had used to similarly advocate causes to Ned's father, putting herself forward as no less a Stark than any of her brothers. 

On 7/4/2016 at 3:00 PM, Anothermi said:

I don't doubt that the schemers for power deliberately chose Robert as Ned would have been a ruler that would engender (not just command) respect. Both, however, would be extremely vulnerable (malleable as 90% put it) to political machinations - just that Robert was even more so.

Brilliant. Also (if one of the schemers were Tywin, and of course he was): Ned was already married, with a son. The new king was surely better off in need of a wife.

Wonderful catch and info about the Magister, and Magisterium, Anothermi. If they are the provosts for some of learning (secular or religious), which?  Something founded in Valyria, and left behind by the Targareyns?  

On 7/4/2016 at 3:16 PM, gingerella said:

I cannot remember if it's on his death pot, or elsewhere, but he says something to Tyrion about Tyrion not being his blood...something like that.

Death pot!!! "Gold his shit; stolen, his sword..."  Tywin said, "You're not my son." Tyrion replied, "I am your son thwack." Earlier, when Tywin ordered Tyrion to consummate his marriage immediately following the Red Wedding, father and son also got into it. Tywin acknowledged that he would have believed that Tyrion was a bastard, if not for the stain cast on his late wife. That he would have abandoned Tyrion on a mountaintop, if not in memory of her. That he wished "misshapen, waddling" Tyrion had died. But, he growled, he knew that Tyrion was his son. (I'm sure he did: but he said it then to make Tyrion regret it.)

On 7/4/2016 at 3:16 PM, gingerella said:

The way he defers to, and placates Viserys, when Viserys feels he's been dissed by Illyrio showed me last night that Illyrio clearly knows that Viserys is an idiot, and he, Illyrio, cannot possible feel Viserys is the best person to sit on the Iron Throne. Illyrio seems far to smart to think that.  So what was his reasoning to appear to help Viserys to the Throne?

Robert's pawned the 7 Kingdoms to Braavos and House Lannister; that compromises trade and every other economy. Maybe Illyrio reasons, "We only need the name. He'll command and we'll collect. There's no fault he lacks, and none we can't manipulate."  Or perhaps he was hedging his bets with the dragon's eggs.

22 hours ago, 90PercentGravity said:

I forgot how awful his hair was the first season.

Gold his hair; lower, his billing.

[Anothermi]

5 hours ago, Pallas said:

We don't know why Prince Rhaegar didn't marry his sister (perhaps he didn't have one?) or married Elia instead of Cersei.

I think the Mad King had only 3 children (living...that we know of). The only sister Rhaegar had wasn't even born when he was fighting his final battle. Apparently Mad King decided to start a belated "second" family? Dany, for certain, was younger than Rhaegar's own doomed children and Viserys couldn't have been that much older than them. So, it he was inclined that way - which I don't think he was - he didn't have the opportunity. From how Oberyn described Cersei - to Tyrion in his cell - I got the impression he didn't like her much. Perhaps she had that effect on Rhaegar as well?

Edited July 6, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

5 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I think the Mad King had only 3 children (living...that we know of). The only sister Rhaegar had wasn't even born when he was fighting his final battle.

No kidding! Thank you for the kindly correction! Began my day by laughing at myself, which is always a good start.

5 hours ago, Anothermi said:

From how Oberyn described Cersei - to Tyrion in his cell - I got the impression he didn't like her much. Perhaps she had that effect on Rhaegar as well?

And if it were Oberyn who Cersei asked the witch about, that could mean (young) Cersei's attitude toward (infant) Tyrion cost her a life as a Princess of sunny Dorne, married to the most dashing man in the kingdom...And later, cost Oberyn his life. And after that, cost Myrcella her life. And later still..

[Llywela]

Hi guys. I meant to join in earlier, but this week has been manic. I did find an hour to re-watch this episode, and boy howdy but it hurt my heart - to see everyone so young and (relatively) innocent, and...y'know...alive.

I don't have any great insight to offer here - I've loved reading everyone else's thoughts. Just wanted to check in!

[Pallas]

Hi Llywela! I know: even the expanse of names in the opening credits...half of them now topping tombstones.

We're forging ahead into ep 2 tonight (which is about to begin for you now). Greatly looking forward to hearing from you as you find the time. 

[DirewolfPup]

I will always love the first episode. It's the only time when my username/avatar makes any sense. (dawww, widdle direwolf puppies)

It was nice to see the beginning again. See how far they've all come. Arya is pretty dramatically different. We haven't seen her shoot arrows in awhile. Since the BwoB no?

[Anothermi]

14 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

I will always love the first episode. It's the only time when my username/avatar makes any sense. (dawww, widdle direwolf puppies)

Welcome back Pup! Good to see you. It really was too bad (for us) that those direwolves grow so fast beacause the pups were the greatest. IIRC YOU had a pack of pups that needed names right around this season and were looking for name suggestions. (or have I confused you with another TWoP poster?) Such fun times.

14 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

It was nice to see the beginning again. See how far they've all come. Arya is pretty dramatically different. We haven't seen her shoot arrows in awhile. Since the BwoB no?

I can't remember if we saw Arya shooting or not then, but I think there was a rivalry with Gendry during their training by BwoB archery guy.

We made the transition to Arya the Swordswoman pretty painlessly, but it does beg the question as to why TPTB chose to show us that she was already skilled in archery in the 1st episode and then never have her use that skill, nor even practice it except for that one other time.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

Hi Pup, and hooray! I think your name has a whole new meaning now with the conclusion of Season 6 and the proclaiming of Jon as The White Wolf. Saver of Puppies as Dany is Hatcher of Eggs, and did it really take me until just now to make the connection that Ghost is white and Drogon black?

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

We made the transition to Arya the Swordswoman pretty painlessly, but it does beg the question as to why TPTB chose to show us that she was already skilled in archery in the 1st episode and then never have her use that skill, nor even practice it except for that one other time.

Very true. I suppose the archery here because Arya's skill relative to Brandon's can be so simply and dramatically shown: zoing!!!  And archery is something she could realistically have practiced on her own at Winterfell, while she could more practically study fencing indoors in the Red Keep. But why not in her later travels equip herself with a bow as well, for hunting? 

Thinking again about Littlefinger's long, long game, and how it begins right here, in retrospect:

1) Lyssa writes (while Baelish dictates) a letter to Ned and Cat, saying that Jon Arryn was murdered, and claiming that the Lannisters did it. The "murdered" part is correct. 

2) The next day, Jaime and Cersei hunt for boar where pigs fly. Brandon sees them, Cersei panics, and Jaime over-reacts. Littlefinger's so lucky, people he frames for murder immediately go out and try to commit one. In the home and on a member of the family to whom he's made his accusation.

[DirewolfPup]

3 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Welcome back Pup! Good to see you. It really was too bad (for us) that those direwolves grow so fast beacause the pups were the greatest. IIRC YOU had a pack of pups that needed names right around this season and were looking for name suggestions. (or have I confused you with another TWoP poster?) Such fun times.

Unfortunately, that is someone else. I have pups of the small, feline variety. Less protective and less murdered. For now.

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

1) Lyssa writes (while Baelish dictates) a letter to Ned and Cat, saying that Jon Arryn was murdered, and claiming that the Lannisters did it. The "murdered" part is correct. 

2) The next day, Jaime and Cersei hunt for boar where pigs fly. Brandon sees them, Cersei panics, and Jaime over-reacts. Littlefinger's so lucky, people he frames for murder immediately go out and try to commit one. In the home and on a member of the family to whom he's made his accusation.

I'm guessing that LF and Lyssa correctly guessed that the Starks and Lannisters would naturally butt heads. I agree that it all went way too swimmingly for their plans. Ugh. I can't wait for the boob suckling part of the season (gag!)

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, DirewolfPup said:

Unfortunately, that is someone else. I have pups of the small, feline variety. Less protective and less murdered. For now.

Ah the joys of merged memory. Oh well, it still a nice memory of whomever it was. I, too, have pups of the feline variety and totally get the "For now." part.

[Llywela]

5 hours ago, Pallas said:

Very true. I suppose the archery here because Arya's skill relative to Brandon's can be so simply and dramatically shown: zoing!!!  And archery is something she could realistically have practiced on her own at Winterfell, while she could more practically study fencing indoors in the Red Keep. But why not in her later travels equip herself with a bow as well, for hunting?

Agreed - Arya's skill with a bow here in episode one wasn't intended to set up a storyline about Arya the archer, but was rather intended to establish her as a tomboy who enjoys playing at such supposedly boyish pursuits, in contrast to the more sensitive Bran, to whom it doesn't come quite so naturally.

As to why she hasn't carried a bow later for hunting, I'm not sure she's really had the chance or need, except during that brief spell with her friends, before the Brotherhood without Banners. She's always been with someone - Yoren, the Brotherhood, the Hound. She went pretty much straight from the Hound to the House of Black and White (or whatever its called), where all her needs were provided. And after that...we'll have to wait and see!

Edited July 19, 2016 by Llywela