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IndianPaintbrush

S04.E05: Touch Decisions and Large Ambitions

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Nathan shares some news regarding his courtship, Erin and Chad have dinner with Zach & Whitney, Lawson travels to Nashville to make plans for his music career.

Feel bad for Nathan.  Even with the Bates' relaxed expectations about courtships, the kids must still feel some pressure.  Breakups just suck in general, but Nathan and Ashley are being tremendously mature about it.

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Definitely feel bad for Nathan though I'm not surprised at all. I have a feeling he's the one who got dumped, or called it off "mutually" though he didn't want to. While he didn't say it, I think they are just far to different - a white country boy from the rural south and a Latina from NYC - and they just could not find a happy medium. Good for her for realizing that she just could not compromise enough to live his life in Rocky Top; and he's a good man to say that he doesn't want her to change, he loves her as she is . . . even if that means it's over.

His hurt seemed real and not just in a OMG what does this do to my stock in the fundie courting market. I think Gil and Kelly were starting to go there right away as they both wanted to know immediately what the status was and were very encouraging for it to be "over" and not just be open ended in hopes that they'll get back together. Emotionally I get it -- easier to close the door once than to shut it a little bit daily. But I think for Gil and Kelly it's also about making sure he moves on so if another young lady shows up in 2 months, he can honestly say -- nope, I'm not courting anyone -- and pursue something else.

It's bad enough to break up generally -- but to have 19 siblings looking at you and have your loud sisters up in your business as you try to move on . . . ugh.

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I just question WHEN did they really break up? Ashley was hanging out with the family at Big Sandy and afterward (late April). But by May 18, UP announced this episode. Kelly wished Ashley happy birthday 8 weeks ago (late April). Why bother if they were already broken up?  No one knows her birthday. 

It had to have happened in late April/early May. What else explains Nate's trip to NYC over Memorial weekend? Tons of pictures of them together and not together...NOT TOUCHING AT ALL. Strange for the most touchy-feely fundie couple I've seen. Too late to cancel his ticket, I guess. That's all I've got. 

I posted pics to the Friends thread over on the Duggar board. 

RIP Nate and Ashley. I think Gil and Kelly thought they had this one in the bag; they had been talking a long time before they introduced her to the public (much like JinJer). At least the Bateses can afford a failed courtship without much, if any, criticism. 

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I felt bad for Nathan.  His hurt was clearly real.  I may or may not have teared up when he crawled into Kelly's arms.  That was a sweet moment, no matter what her intentions were about the next courtship or saving face.  Poor guy.  

On a lighter note, I cracked up during the dinner with Whitney, Zach, Chad, and Erin.

Whitney: "We were thinkin' bout puttin' Carson in a small toddler bed."

Chad: *smiles politely* 

Zach: "Actually, Chad..."

Chad: *screams internally, smiles politely*

Zach: "We thought you could make the bed."

Chad: *internally* Crap.  Fudge. Dang. *grimaces* *recovers* "That's a great idea.  My brother designed a bed..."

Poor dude.

Edited by Spencer Hastings
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5 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I just question WHEN did they really break up? Ashley was hanging out with the family at Big Sandy and afterward (late April). But by May 18, UP announced this episode. Kelly wished Ashley happy birthday 8 weeks ago (late April). Why bother if they were already broken up?  No one knows her birthday. 

It had to have happened in late April/early May. What else explains Nate's trip to NYC over Memorial weekend? Tons of pictures of them together and not together...NOT TOUCHING AT ALL. Strange for the most touchy-feely fundie couple I've seen. Too late to cancel his ticket, I guess. That's all I've got. 

I posted pics to the Friends thread over on the Duggar board. 

RIP Nate and Ashley. I think Gil and Kelly thought they had this one in the bag; they had been talking a long time before they introduced her to the public (much like JinJer). At least the Bateses can afford a failed courtship without much, if any, criticism. 

So do I. The pictures and Kelly wishing Ashley a happy birthday made think the whole talk with Gil and Kelly a few episodes back that it was just a story that was made up drama for the courtship.  I was surprised when Nathan admitted they broke up.

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What bugs me about Nathan and Ashley's breakup is that everyone keeps saying, "If it's God's will, trust it."  How do they know it's God's will?  Did God get on the phone with them and tell them to break up?  I just hate it when these families act like there are no tough decisions in life because it's all part of God's master plan.

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I find it hard to believe that Ashley didn't know that this wasn't going to work when Nathan asked her to court.  He made it pretty clear that he wanted her to be a "country girl".  She had to have misgivings even then.  She seems to have been giving him some wrong signals if he thought she might be expecting an engagement ring.    Exactly how long did this courtship last?

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2 hours ago, IndianPaintbrush said:

What bugs me about Nathan and Ashley's breakup is that everyone keeps saying, "If it's God's will, trust it."  How do they know it's God's will?  Did God get on the phone with them and tell them to break up?  I just hate it when these families act like there are no tough decisions in life because it's all part of God's master plan.

Right, it can never just be that two young adults realized they had major compatibility issues and did the the mature thing rather than marry to save face. There always has to be some deeper meaning or excuse. Sometimes shit just doesn't work out. It doesn't make Nathan or Ashley bad people who need some sort of Biblical redemption arc. These people put way too much investment into courtship as it is. Even with the Bateses retooled version.

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38 minutes ago, Patricia07 said:

I find it hard to believe that Ashley didn't know that this wasn't going to work when Nathan asked her to court.  He made it pretty clear that he wanted her to be a "country girl".  She had to have misgivings even then.  She seems to have been giving him some wrong signals if he thought she might be expecting an engagement ring.    Exactly how long did this courtship last?

They started officially courting at Christmas, but we don't know when exactly they broke up.  Personally I think this is a case of two people who had great chemistry and probably overlooked many of their differences because they were so smitten.  But when the situation got more serious and they began thinking about the practicalities of where and how they would live, the differences were too big to ignore.

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^^^ Cosign 10000%. I'm glad Ashley stuck to her guns and finally realized that she'd be miserable in Bumfuck, TN and that Nathan wasn't going to budge in his desire to stay near home. Finding a city guy may be tough for Ashley; those ATI types tend to live out in the boonies, so they can afford to raise eleventy gazillion blessings. The only Gothardites I can think of who live in a big city are the Dauers from right around here in San Jose. I don't think she could even do the burbs of Chicago to be a wife to someone working at what's left of Gothard HQ. I know I couldn't do it. 

It will be interesting to see who both of them eventually end up with. 

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Fundies in San Jose?! Dad must have a real job. You can't make ends meet in that area with a Duggar-style work ethic.

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I forget what Pops Dauer does, but they aren't hurting for money. It was the wife's pictures of the Duggar compound that outed the big BBQ at the Duggar compound after Jilly Muffin's wedding. There was no gag order on releasing pictures of that since TLC didn't film. 

Their youngest son, Cooper, is pretty creepy (has a FB page, check it out), but age-appropriate for Ashley. 

eta: Lots of Duggars in his cover photo. 

https://www.facebook.com/dauer.cooper?fref=ts

Edited by Sew Sumi
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I guess it doesn't matter to me whether they broke up in April or May or if/why they saw each other after or why Kelly said happy birthday. Maybe it was for the TV show. Maybe Kelly sees no reason to be rude/ignore a girl who was a part of major family functions for the last 6 months. Maybe Nathan is harboring some hope that if he keeps in touch with her or visits for Memorial Day and they spend just a little more time together, she'll change her mind bc she'll be reminded how much fun they had together. Sure it's likely not going to happen, but he's 22 yrs old and this is (probably) his first love -- I don't think he'd be the first person in the world to attempt to heal a broken heart by nurturing a "it could still work out" fantasy.

In any event he looked really upset that they broke up, and you could tell Gil and Kelly felt bad for him -- and unlike the Duggars it wasn't just a "uh oh now we need a story line, lets get that Tori/Bobby courtship fired up asap."

It's nice to see a fundie family that parents as normal. When Gil drove over Judson's bike and he came out of the house crying -- it was nice to see Gil pick him up and say "I broke it, I'll fix it" and apologize a few times and comfort him; and then it was nice to see him replace the tire as Judson nervously watched. I can only imagine in the Duggar home it would be -- I broke it, hardy-har-har as the kid bawls; or telling the kid boys don't cry; or minimizing it as no big deal bc the headship can do what he wants; and/or passing the bawling kid off to a sister to be comforted. It was nice to see Gil own up to a mistake as parents sometimes have to and comfort a "distraught" 5 yr old rather than expecting one of his sisters to handle it.

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Also meant to add -- Chad did look put off when Whitney and Zach started on the "Chad we wanted to talk to you about beds" and it looked like he said yes out of fundie politeness. I get that he enjoys working with his hands and doing projects, but why doesn't this family get that you can't take advantage? When he was single, I'm sure he was doing projects left and right -- after all he was in town to court Erin and wanted to be seen as perfect son in law material. Even after marriage, sure it took up some of him time but it was probably still ok. Now he is married with a child and another on the way and a full time 40 hr week job. Chances are when he's done work, he wants to be playing with his kids and hanging out with his wife; plus he needs to take care of projects in his own home -- like deciding if he now needs to build a bed/crib for his 2nd kid.

And even if all of that isn't a deterrent, I think it's pretty clear that Chad is trying to start up his own furniture re finishing business either to make money on the side or as a test run to see if he can someday run that as his own full time business. Why don't these people get that Chad probably gets home from work a 5-6 pm, eats with Erin, plays with Carson, and then likely spends 2-3 hrs/night on refinishing whatever furniture piece he has right now? That means about 15 hrs/wk off work. Now assigning him a project like making a bed thinking -- oh he's Chad, he can do it "quick" -- quick might still mean that it takes him about 10-15 hrs to build a bed, paint/finish it, and haul it to Zach/Whitneys. And I'm thinking he does not/cannot charge family and if they pay him, I imagine they only pay for materials not labor (bc if they were going to pay materials + labor, they could go to the store and buy a bed). So by having him working on their project for 10-15 hrs, they're costing him almost a full week of work on his own, money generating project. I realize grifting is big amongst the fundies so Zach learned it from Gil and I realize that fundies cannot ever speak their mind so Chad can't decline -- but seriously -- how does no one else get this!? Esp. when it isn't a one time thing, it's seemingly a constant "honey do" list from Gil and Kelly and now Zach and Whitney.

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It's crazy, but Fundies don't seem to have any self-awareness when it comes to grifting. I also think that's one of the downfalls when you're a jack-of-all-trades and you live within spitting distance of your in-laws. People take advantage because they assume you love any chance to practice your hobby, never mind if it's a huge inconvenience or not. I didn't see the episode, but it was tacky of Zach and Whitney to ask Chad to make a bed. That's why I like Alyssa's husband best. John has zero fucks to give and has no problem putting the family in its place.

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1 hour ago, cereality said:

Also meant to add -- Chad did look put off when Whitney and Zach started on the "Chad we wanted to talk to you about beds" and it looked like he said yes out of fundie politeness. I get that he enjoys working with his hands and doing projects, but why doesn't this family get that you can't take advantage? When he was single, I'm sure he was doing projects left and right -- after all he was in town to court Erin and wanted to be seen as perfect son in law material. Even after marriage, sure it took up some of him time but it was probably still ok. Now he is married with a child and another on the way and a full time 40 hr week job. Chances are when he's done work, he wants to be playing with his kids and hanging out with his wife; plus he needs to take care of projects in his own home -- like deciding if he now needs to build a bed/crib for his 2nd kid.

And even if all of that isn't a deterrent, I think it's pretty clear that Chad is trying to start up his own furniture re finishing business either to make money on the side or as a test run to see if he can someday run that as his own full time business. Why don't these people get that Chad probably gets home from work a 5-6 pm, eats with Erin, plays with Carson, and then likely spends 2-3 hrs/night on refinishing whatever furniture piece he has right now? That means about 15 hrs/wk off work. Now assigning him a project like making a bed thinking -- oh he's Chad, he can do it "quick" -- quick might still mean that it takes him about 10-15 hrs to build a bed, paint/finish it, and haul it to Zach/Whitneys. And I'm thinking he does not/cannot charge family and if they pay him, I imagine they only pay for materials not labor (bc if they were going to pay materials + labor, they could go to the store and buy a bed). So by having him working on their project for 10-15 hrs, they're costing him almost a full week of work on his own, money generating project. I realize grifting is big amongst the fundies so Zach learned it from Gil and I realize that fundies cannot ever speak their mind so Chad can't decline -- but seriously -- how does no one else get this!? Esp. when it isn't a one time thing, it's seemingly a constant "honey do" list from Gil and Kelly and now Zach and Whitney.

I totally get what you are saying. I make quilts. For me and whoever else I want to.  They are not cheap to make and take a lot of hours.  I can tell you people don't get this and say "can you make me a quilt? I need it by next week" and I say, "NO".  They are the type that can be happy with a Walmart quilt and don't have a clue as to how many hours go into it, let alone the expense.  So I think since Chad can make things they think he just pops them out.  Or, it is a made for TV moment.  I wish Chad could say "with us having our second, I'm going to be making a bed for our baby first".   

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Z&W didn't offer to pay -- at least not on TV. I feel like from that conversation and from the TH done by Gil and Kelly with them saying -- if you have a talent, don't tell our family -- no one pays or even offers money. We've have seen Chad doing so much stuff for the family-- random odd jobs, building things, giving haircuts to the boys (WTF - what did they do for haircuts before Chad came along), finishing Z&W's nursery for their first kid -- I highly doubt they're paying bc that would start costing them money and get in the way of grifting. I don't understand why they need a hand made solid wood bed for a 2 yr old -- go to a garage sale or a consignment store and pick up a bed and buy a new mattress for it.

I agree if this was John -- he would NOT be "helping out" all the time. He would have zero problems saying -- my 40 hr a week job end up being more like 50, plus I run a cleaning service at night, plus I play on a softball league with my bros 1-2 nights a weeks, so sorry -- my downtime is for Alyssa and Allie, would you like me to email you the location of the closest furniture store which could take care of your bed needs?

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I know some people who are not fundie who don't seem to have any self-awareness when it comes to grifting and I find it painful. I will choose to believe that they were actually paying Chad or something that makes it not like how it seemed. Actually my suspicion is that most of these Chad odd jobs on the show are either created for the show or Chad doing it because if it's on the show, he & Erin get paid for it. Or both. Sure, I'll build a bed for you as part of the show because I know I'll get paid for that episode, and it sure as heck will be more than you'd ever pay me.

My kids all sleep on Craiglist or used furniture store beds and I find myself salivating at the thought of handmade wooden beds... but I have no family members who woodwork, nor any who do free work, nor a TV show on which to perform said woodworking and thus comped materials or payment for the show. Sigh.

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Chad did not look enthusiastic at all, but I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that if he didn't want to make the bed, he'd say no (offscreen, probably). Or Erin would say, sorry guys, too busy.

But I'm probably kidding myself, based on the JOY principle. (Jesus first, others second, yourself last.)

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