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S06.E09: Battle Of The Bastards


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26 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Serious question -- is there ANYONE left to fight the White Walkers?  The death toll from that battle was catastrophic.

The armies are like the pirate extras on Black Sails, there are just always some laying about. ;)

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2 minutes ago, AGuyToo said:

Jon was determined to attack because he was worried about winter storms and starving; Davos had earlier noted that it was the snows as much as Ramsay that defeated Stannis. And before the battle, Jon and Sansa knew that Brienne's mission had failed and the Blackfish wasn't coming. Sansa kept saying they needed more men and Jon basically responded that yes, they needed more men, but there were no men to be had. That would have been a good moment for Sansa to say "As a matter of fact, there is one army out there still available to us ..."

I don't understand the Sansa love in this thread. Sure, Jon was the greater idiot, but Sansa should have told the others about Littlefinger. Indeed, she should have told them about Littlefinger several episodes ago. Thousands of people were going to risk their lives in this battle. There was no excuse for her to withhold important information from the battle commander.

She had no proof another army was coming, just hope.  

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23 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

That was intense! 

Jon was stupid but it still ended with Ramsey getting what he deserved. I'm fine with that. Don't know why Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Veil army. She did warn him about Ramsey and Jon didn't listen. He was definitely raised by Ned. 

Finally someone that can reign Dany in. Tyrion is not great at everything but he knows how to play smarter than she does. Burning everyone is going to solve anything. The Greyjoy entrance was a little more lackluster than I thought it would be. However I did know that Dany would appreciate another woman wanting to lead her people as long as they recognized her as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. 

Comments like the one I bolded above in the book thread always puzzle me.  In the show Ned was portrayed more naïve than in the books, and now the show made Jon more reckless than he's ever been in the books, where he's a pretty good strategist and commander in battle.  And it's all because of Ned.  Robb didn't lose a single battle either, and his strategies were admired even by Tywin, who didn't think Robb would be smart enough to act the way he did.

In Jon and Robb's POV chapters we see them remembering the battle lessons Ned taught them and winning battles because of it.  Ned himself was a respected battle commander who broke the siege of Storm's End and helped Robert win many battles on his way to the Iron Throne, and also during the Greyjoy rebellion.  I get that the show dumbs these characters down in order to get the "big" moments they want, but, as a book reader, I would never say it's because they were raised by Ned.

16 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Serious question -- is there ANYONE left to fight the White Walkers?  The death toll from that battle was catastrophic.

They must have some people left because when they start fighting the Walkers, there won't be some secret army stashed away somewhere to save the day.  It's all of Westeros against the dead. Essos and the other continents in this world are lucky that it's the Westerosi having to face the WW and not them.

12 minutes ago, mac123x said:

I noticed that Tyrion dropped the foreshadowing anvil about the wildfire in Kings Landing pretty heavily.  I'm a little surprised that Jaime had told him about it, since S3 Jaime-in-the-bathtub-with-Brienne seemed like he'd never told anyone.

Yeah, I don't think Jaimie told anyone either, but they have to have someone talk about this before the next episode, I'm guessing, and since Jaimie couldn't have this conversation again with Brienne (been there, done that) or anyone else (who's he going to tell? Bronn?); they have Tyrion, who has had very little to do this season remind us of the wildfire while counseling Dany and establishing that she knows her father was a psycho pyromaniac.

5 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

He wants her.  She knew he'd show up.

I agree.  I think she won't give him what he wants, though.

The battle scenes were gorgeous, the aerial shots were amazing, Jon almost suffocating was excruciating...but the whole Sansa and the Vale army plot was contrived for the sole purpose of having the surprise saving.  I think the writers thought we'd be happy because Sansa was saving the day, but they only succeeded in confusing the audience as to her motives.

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11 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

In order for Ramsey's tactic to work, there needed to be a wall of corpses to form the back wall of the enclosure.  It was made up of as many of his men as Jon's (if not more.)  How did he get his "supporters" to agree to that?  Lies and evasions I presume but it does make me wonder who among his men knew the real plan.

Where do you suppose Lady Lyanna was all during the fight?  Up on a hill watching her fighting men being cut down like wheat?  I wonder how loyal a supporter she is now.  I wonder how many of her 62 men survived?

How does one go about having a funeral for a giant?  I guess you burn him.  The did seem to be able to drag him out of the courtyard.

Man the smell of burning corpses and death will be choking around Winterfell.  Good thing Winter is Coming.  Wait -- didn't winter already come?  Didn't Sansa and Theon jump off the battlements into very deep snow.  Where did that snow go?

I know, I know -- it's a fantasy.  Don't look to closely at things or you'll go mad.

Winter isn't confirmed until the Citadel sends the white raven, right?

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21 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am not even sure what Sansa's thinking is. It's hard to fathom why she does anything at this point besides lecture Jon and being bad-ass. 

Earlier she is all 'We have to save our little brother Rickon from the monster, Jon!'.  Then she was like 'He's already dead. No point in trying to save him, Jon!'. And why would Jon not take up the Vale's extra men? He knew that they needed more men. Why would he refuse the offer? He went to war because he thought that they would get no more reinforcements. Besides they could have used the Vale army support to get more men like Glover who backed off when he heard that the Starks had only Wildling support.

Her decision to keep back the Vale info lead to a lot of unnecessary deaths but I am sure they will sweep it under the carpet, because we get Sansa getting her revenge on Ramsay and LF entering the story.

At this point, Jon' idiocy makes him unfit to be King in the North. He has done nothing this season to deserve it. Swinging around the sword a few times means nothing. The North plot has been more about Sansa and she deserves to be Queen in the North considering the Vale army loyal to her won that battle.

Also it sucks that we get so much of the dragons and no direwolves at all. Where was Ghost?

See, while I think Jon was too hotheaded in reacting to Rickon's death (though I agree that Sansa's position on her brother was contradictory), I also think that if what remains of her original army would really be ticked that she let their comrades die when she had a reason to believe that a huge army was on its way.  They'd be less likely to back her as queen if they don't think they can trust her. 

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The army of the Vale, just like the US Calvary, saves the day at the last moment.

Sansa doesn't trust LF, and she doesn't know that Cersei promised him Wintefell, if he took it from the  Boltons.  I think LF has shown that hoping he backs your play is mistake a la Ned.

That was an amazing piece of film making.  Well done show.

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(edited)
21 minutes ago, AGuyToo said:

I don't understand the Sansa love in this thread. Sure, Jon was the greater idiot, but Sansa should have told the others about Littlefinger. Indeed, she should have told them about Littlefinger several episodes ago. Thousands of people were going to risk their lives in this battle. There was no excuse for her to withhold important information from the battle commander.

I think people are mostly overlooking it because there is no real reason - either good or evil - for Sansa to have withheld the information except that The Writers Wanted It That Way. IMO, it makes it hard to blame the character herself when the writers are so nakedly yanking her puppet-strings for their desired plot, instead of making her actions seem credibly like something a real person would do (whether that person is a hero or villain). It bugs me that the writers are breaking the illusion like this.

Edited by screamin
Grammar are important.
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It's possible Jaime and Tyrion had the wildfire conversation after Jaime returned to King's Landing.  "Hey, Jaime, I found a bunch of wildfire in the city from your old King..." 

That would work.

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(edited)
Quote

Winter isn't confirmed until the Citadel sends the white raven, right?

Yes the white raven.  That's season finale material Im guessing given the episode title.

I don't see Sansa marrying LF. If anything she may have to agree to a marriage agreement with Robin Arryn to solidify the Vale pact but as it stands she's the SiW until Bran reappears.

Edited by kittykat
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(edited)

I had to watch late because I'm an HBO Now user (grrr), so I haven't had time to catch up on the thread. But I just wanted to say quickly that if that was supposed to be Sansa's big bad ass hero moment, they ruined it by having her continue to hide things from Jon for no reason. If he had known the Knights of the Vale were on the way, he could have held off on the battle and saved many lives. I'm not cheering for her tonight, and that pisses me off because I really want to be.

Edited by stagmania
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3 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

The battle scenes were gorgeous, the aerial shots were amazing, Jon almost suffocating was excruciating...but the whole Sansa and the Vale army plot was contrived for the sole purpose of having the surprise saving.  I think the writers thought we'd be happy because Sansa was saving the day, but they only succeeded in confusing the audience as to her motives.

I think this underpins all the Sansa talk quite nicely. Yes, it's possible she had no idea if Petyr was coming. Yes, maybe all she had was hope. But we didn't see any of that. We just saw her being ticked off at Jon for not listening to her. And yes he should have listened to her but we all know he wasn't going to because conflict and because show. One scene of her wringing her hands and being worried as fuck like she should've been would solve a lot of problems.

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Quote

And before the battle, Jon and Sansa knew that Brienne's mission had failed and the Blackfish wasn't coming. Sansa kept saying they needed more men and Jon basically responded that yes, they needed more men, but there were no men to be had. That would have been a good moment for Sansa to say "As a matter of fact, there is one army out there still available to us ..."

I disagree.  We saw after the Glover rebuff Jon was DONE going door to door.  He flat out REFUSED to go to House Cerwyn, we saw it onscreen.  He said, in her face, "we fight with the army we have" and it was clear he would brook no argument.   Sansa could have said LF promised me an army, would Jon have believed her, would he have believed LF.  Would he have asked her which Lord's she was corresponding too and would he have been disheartened to hear that it was LF alone she was negotiating with?   

I think Jon was done waiting.

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Holy shit! Amazing episode. All the dragons! Dany & Yara girl power! And after the Battle of he Bastards, I feel like a need a cigarette, and I don't even smoke. So relieved that demented evil hobbit Ramsay is dead.

RIP, Wun Wun. You rocked.

RIP Rickon. We all pretty much knew you would not survive Ramsay, but I am the only one who shouted out "Serpentine, Shel, serpentine!" as he ran away toward Jon?

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1 minute ago, gatopretoNYC said:

Holy shit! Amazing episode. All the dragons! Dany & Yara girl power! And after the Battle of he Bastards, I feel like a need a cigarette, and I don't even smoke. So relieved that demented evil hobbit Ramsay is dead.

RIP, Wun Wun. You rocked.

RIP Rickon. We all pretty much knew you would not survive Ramsay, but I am the only one who shouted out "Serpentine, Shel, serpentine!" as he ran away toward Jon?

Can someone please explain the Serpentine Rickon thing to me? Thanks!

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38 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Serious question -- is there ANYONE left to fight the White Walkers?  The death toll from that battle was catastrophic.

This is a great question.

The game of thrones -- the business about these "noble" houses playing their little power games -- has always seemed a bit trivial to me because we all know that the REAL threat is north of the wall and marching south at a frightening pace.

Who is left in Westeros who understands this? Of the five kings, only Stannis understood -- but now he's dead. The wildlings, who understood the threat from personal experience, have been decimated fighting for Winterfell (RIP Wun-Wun). Other than the Mormont 62 (who might be dead as well), Jon and Sansa have no other army of their own. In fact, the only big army left in the north seems to be the knights of the Vale. Does Littlefinger really understand about the Night King?

Nobody in Kings Landing has a clue.

Daenarys and her dragons better get to Westeros pronto, or there might be nothing left for her to rule.

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24 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

In order for Ramsey's tactic to work, there needed to be a wall of corpses to form the back wall of the enclosure.  It was made up of as many of his men as Jon's (if not more.)  How did he get his "supporters" to agree to that?  

I was kind of hoping that would be the turning point where Karstark and/or Umber said "he's killing our men?  Fuck that" and attacked Ramsey's forces from the side.  Would have been a different take on things besides the cavalry riding to the rescue again some more.

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7 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I disagree.  We saw after the Glover rebuff Jon was DONE going door to door.  He flat out REFUSED to go to House Cerwyn, we saw it onscreen.  He said, in her face, "we fight with the army we have" and it was clear he would brook no argument.   Sansa could have said LF promised me an army, would Jon have believed her, would he have believed LF.  Would he have asked her which Lord's she was corresponding too and would he have been disheartened to hear that it was LF alone she was negotiating with?   

I think Jon was done waiting.

Littlefinger was different than Cerwyn because Littlefinger had actually offered up an army at one point (though Jon didn't know this). Cerwyn was just a cold call.

They had already sent ravens to the northern houses. Waiting without a real hope for success would haven been foolish given the weather.

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Ok wait a minute, wait a minute....Sansa fed the line to Ramsay at the end about him having starved his dogs for 7 days. Except she rode away from the negotiations BEFORE Ramsay said it. Not sure if I should call that sloppy writing or fanwank that for some reason, of all the conversations they had, that the subject of whether or not Ramsay had fed his dogs this week came up?

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(edited)

Loved this gem from the A.V. Club comments:

Quote

Lemon of Troy • 31 minutes ago

There were two times in this episode that characters were surprised by the obvious.

1. Dr-dr-dr-DRAGONS?! WHERE DID THESE FIRE-BREATHING DRAGONS COME FROM?!

and

2. Sansa: Ramsay Bolton is going to kill Rickon and lure you into a trap.

Jon Snow: Oh pish posh--wait, what is Ramsay doing with my brother? ATTACK!!!

 

Edited by sumiregusa
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3 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

Ok wait a minute, wait a minute....Sansa fed the line to Ramsay at the end about him having starved his dogs for 7 days. Except she rode away from the negotiations BEFORE Ramsay said it. Not sure if I should call that sloppy writing or fanwank that for some reason, of all the conversations they had, that the subject of whether or not Ramsay had fed his dogs this week came up?

I can picture Jon saying/hinting to go ahead and off him that way that Ramsey hadn't fed his dogs for 7 days after Sansa asked him where Ramsey was.

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It makes sense that Jamie would've told Tyrion about his reasons for killing Mad King. Those two were close. The look Tyrion gives jon in season 1 when Jon calls Jamie out on that now has more meaning. 

I want Dany to start off all negotiations with we have horrible fathers so when she starts off her negotiation with Jon that way, he can be all " Nah, Ned was pretty cool actually."

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Just now, ulkis said:

Oh, and I thought Shireen was killed at Castle Black? How did he find that figurine of hers not too far outside Winterfell?

Shireen was killed/sacrificed at Stannis's encampment. The same place Jon and his army were camped. Poor, sweet Shireen.

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(edited)
3 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Oh, and I thought Shireen was killed at Castle Black? How did he find that figurine of hers not too far outside Winterfell?

At Melisandre's insistence, Shireen accompanied Stannis when he left Castle Black to march on Winterfell. Davos gave Shireen that figurine in their camp near Winterfell just before he left to return to Castle Black.

Edited by AGuyToo
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2 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

Ok wait a minute, wait a minute....Sansa fed the line to Ramsay at the end about him having starved his dogs for 7 days. Except she rode away from the negotiations BEFORE Ramsay said it. Not sure if I should call that sloppy writing or fanwank that for some reason, of all the conversations they had, that the subject of whether or not Ramsay had fed his dogs this week came up?

Well, turning Winterfell from a Bolton back to a Stark holding would necessitate a certain amount of housecleaning - doubtless including deciding what to do with Ramsey's murderous pack. I could totally see the Starks being asked whether they should put them down immediately - and it occurring to one or both of them that the poor doggies deserved a last meal...

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2 minutes ago, MuuMuuChainsmoker said:

I'm a little distressed as to what it says about me that I was downright giddy to see a man violently mauled to death by dogs. 

You and me both. And after seeing that scene, I topped off my dogs food bowl. 

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5 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

Ok wait a minute, wait a minute....Sansa fed the line to Ramsay at the end about him having starved his dogs for 7 days. Except she rode away from the negotiations BEFORE Ramsay said it. Not sure if I should call that sloppy writing or fanwank that for some reason, of all the conversations they had, that the subject of whether or not Ramsay had fed his dogs this week came up?

It seems that unlike Sansa, Jon shares information with his sibling.

Jon acknowledged that they didn't have enough men to Sansa in the war camp and that would have been a logical time to tell him about the Vale troops (she should have told him about this from the beginning).  But she decided to pout for no reason and not tell him.  Real "bad ass" there...

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On a sort of side note, I'm not going to lie - when I saw the three dragons flying around, I kept thinking to myself "how amazing would an adaptation of the Pern books be?"

OK, those explanations about Sansa and the dogs makes sense. Maybe it was just the way it was worded, it sounded like she was repeating back to him words she'd heard him say.

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2 minutes ago, screamin said:

Well, turning Winterfell from a Bolton back to a Stark holding would necessitate a certain amount of housecleaning - doubtless including deciding what to do with Ramsey's murderous pack. I could totally see the Starks being asked whether they should put them down immediately - and it occurring to one or both of them that the poor doggies deserved a last meal...

Yes I was thinking Dogs of War have to be put down sooner or later as they are dangerous to  even their trainers. So yes it good they got a last meal. Sorry Ramsey they were starving but you also gave them a taste for human, as soon as one of them wanted to challenge the alfa dog Ramsey they would attack him, and Ramsey being tied up and beat up is a good cause for a challenge. And yes Ramsey being ate was fun. 

Great Drama but bad tactics and politics. Ramsey should have had defections from his fire on own troops choice.  Don't recall a Spartan style shield and spear wall being used in middle ages, for that mater other than small mercenary units there were few trained ground troops until the renaissance. I would have like better the shield wall without spears that was used by knights on foot to be the thing in use. 

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19 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

They mean Rickon should zig-zag while running away, so as to be a more difficult target to hit.

Ah, thanks. :facepalm: I didn't realize you could use "serpentine" as a verb.

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7 minutes ago, benteen said:

It seems that unlike Sansa, Jon shares information with his sibling.

Jon acknowledged that they didn't have enough men to Sansa in the war camp and that would have been a logical time to tell him about the Vale troops (she should have told him about this from the beginning).  But she decided to pout for no reason and not tell him.  Real "bad ass" there...

Your assuming the Vale troops are coming or would even get their in time which Sansa had no way of knowing and she also couldn't know if Littlefinger would use the troops for her or against her since he had already given her to Ramsey before.

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Can Dany, Yara, Sansa, Margaery, and Lyanna rule the seven kingdoms together with  Missandei, Arya, Brienne, Oleanna, and the decent men as their advisors? After today's episode I want this to happen so much based on Dany and Yara's meeting alone.

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13 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

Ok wait a minute, wait a minute....Sansa fed the line to Ramsay at the end about him having starved his dogs for 7 days. Except she rode away from the negotiations BEFORE Ramsay said it. Not sure if I should call that sloppy writing or fanwank that for some reason, of all the conversations they had, that the subject of whether or not Ramsay had fed his dogs this week came up?

Ramsey was evil, but compliant with Health & Safety regulations. The kennel had signs saying "We have worked 7 days without feeding the dogs"

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9 minutes ago, dbell1 said:

You and me both. And after seeing that scene, I topped off my dogs food bowl. 

You guys aren't the only ones. I was torn between wincing at the violence and absolutely celebrating it. Guess this tells us how we're still holding wars in the real world too. Stress folks out for long enough.....

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(edited)
10 hours ago, screamin said:

God, yes. There was NO freakin' reason in the world for Sansa not to tell Jon about the Vale, and every freakin' reason to do so. It made no goddamn sense.

Well, Sansa had to have her badass bitch moment regardless if JON SNOW had to be written poorly so she could get it.  That said, the shot of Jon staring down the calvary was AWESOME and so was his fighting.  I'm not a Sansa fan, but the writers could have made her somewhat tolerable to me if they hadn't so blatantly wanted her to be someone special.  Oooo!  Girl power!  Sansa can't plan battle strategy or fight.  What she did do was pout and complain, call for Littlefinger and kept his army a secret from Jon.  Wow.  That's badass, alright.  That's why I'm team Dany.  She is someone special and she finally got to kick some major ass this week.  Loved the Meeren scenes and those dragons.....sigh.

Edited by taurusrose
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Couldn't watch most of it--I'm a full on GOT-PTSD sufferer. I'm glad Ghost was at the Dire Wolf Day Spa, and his was one less gruesome death I had to worry about.

(I'm still PISSED about Summer. And Shaggy Dog.)

Can anyone explain to me how the dothraki got to Mereen so fast? My geography is poor. During the credits I'm usually watching it for the cool clockwork stuff, not the maps. 

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Could anyone else almost not hear the mother of dragons and Yara talking.  Above the clanging of there massive brass breast plate clanging against each other as they negotiated with each other.  I tell you what.  If you put the that 10 year old lady lord from last week together with those two in the same room.  It would results in a nuclear explosion if they all come together on the same subject.

What house rode to the request during the battle part?

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The battle was some of the best medieval warfare I've ever seen depicted onscreen.  That was easily film quality with phenomenal directing and cinematography.  The filming of Jon was simply mesmerizing.  Too bad it was all dependent on Jon making poor choices and running entirely on emotion with Sansa still not mentioning that there was cavalry coming maybe.  And yay, they've taken back Winterfell but now their combined forces are decimated and they're in the debt of the man who unbeknownst to them fatally betrayed Ned in the first place and set so much of their misery in motion.  Who also has the only mostly intact army left in the region.  Who exactly is going to be left to fight the white walkers at the rate they're going?

Wun Wun fought for them to the end and got a good warrior's death.  I liked Tormund and Davos bonding over following failed kings and I didn't hate everything happening in Meereen in one of the first times in maybe two seasons.  The introduction of Theon and Yara there was kind of underwhelming, but the Yara-Dany interaction sparked in a way I wasn't really expecting so kudos on that.

Color me as surprised as anyone Tyrion after all these seasons just happens to mention that he too knows the big secret that the Mad King was about to burn down Kings Landing and that's why Jaime killed him.  But it foreshadows what seems about to drop there and further muddies the waters for if and when Dany and Jaime ever finally do meet since he's one of the last people left from Robert's Rebellion beyond a straight up "You killed my father, prepare to die" scenario.

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So, after months of speculation, the burning flayed folks on the battlefield were . . . . . no one of consequence?

And the Northern Lord who would change sides?

In the end it was just what it was set up to be on-screen.  Jon going in under-armed, and Littlefinger coming in with reinforcements to save the day.

BTW, they never explained Ramsay's rationale for deciding to meet Jon's army in the open field when it would've made much more sense to defend the attack from within the walls of Winterfell (with, perhaps, the cavalry making a flanking attack once they were engaged.

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