S03.E07: Ebb Tide

[Wanderdown]

One part got to me.

Vanessa, to the Creature: You're a kind, generous soul.

I wanted to see someone else come in.  "Uh, Miss Ives?  There's a Mr. Proteus and a Mr. Van Helsing who would like to speak with you."

[Neurochick]

I thought the hands on the table was pushing it.  I really don't like Lily (well, I can't stand Billie Piper).  To me, Lily is a terrorist and what most terrorists never think about is the end game.  She's so concerned about winning that she doesn't realize that once you win a revolution, you then have to create a society; someone has to do the shit work.  Can those women, living in Dorian's home, read and write or do math?  Is Lily teaching them?  No?  Well then I do agree with Dorian, she's quite boring.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Neurochick

[Scaeva]

The irony is that Lily's hand collection is probably going to create more prostitutes. This is Victorian London, before governments provided an adequate safety net for the poor and disabled. How many of those hands belonged to working class men, who now can't work a decent trade? So these working poor men are now going to be reduced to appalling, abject poverty, and with a lack of opportunities for women...it probably condemns some of their wives or daughters to sell themselves on the streets of places like Whitechapel out of pure desperation. 

Great job, Lily. Dorian isnt the only one now bored with your antics.

As completely scummy as Victor, Jeckyl, and Dorian are...it was really difficult to muster any pity for Lily. 

[LadyChaos]

13 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

The irony is that Lily's hand collection is probably going to create more prostitutes. This is Victorian London, before governments provided an adequate safety net for the poor and disabled. How many of those hands belonged to working class men, who now can't work a decent trade? So these working poor men are now going to be reduced to appalling, abject poverty, and with a lack of opportunities for women...it probably condemns some of their wives or daughters to sell themselves on the streets of places like Whitechapel out of pure desperation. 

Great job, Lily. Dorian isnt the only one now bored with your antics.

As completely scummy as Victor, Jeckyl, and Dorian are...it was really difficult to muster any pity for Lily. 

To me, the way I would have liked to see it end is with Dorian just killing her and the little uppity brat who will probably try to kill Dorian when he doesn't bring her Mistress back from their night out.

[Ravenya003]

16 hours ago, iMonrey said:

But . . . who is she? Honestly, I know I keep harping on this, but I'm so over Vanessa because it seems like she's this:

Which - yeah, but what?? How can she be the "mother of evil?" Wouldn't that make Dracula and Satan her children? I mean, they came first, not her. I just don't understand why every devil and demon in the world is obsessed with her and I'm tired of every season revolving around her never-ending fight against The Darkness Trying To Own Her.

I'm pretty frustrated with where the Vanessa story is going, but my understanding of her is that she's the reincarnation of an ancient goddess called Amunet (this is the demon that keeps manifesting when she's possessed). Amunet is called "the Mother of Evil" not because she's the mother of Dracula/Lucifer, but because if either one of them impregnate her, she'll give birth to monsters, demons, the end of days, etc.

Of course, none of this has actually been clarified in the show itself. After having faith for three seasons, I'm suspecting that John Logan might just be making all this up as he goes along.

[darkestboy]

Interesting episode. Vanessa just embraced her dark side there at the end but with that guy as Dracula, I kind of can't blame her really. Still though, someone's gotta pull her back into the light.

I liked the brief scenes she had with Caitriona and Kaetenay in this one as well. Also liked Seward's brief moment with Renfield too.

Jekyll needs more to do than just to be an enabler for Victor. Seven episodes in and we still know little on him.

I get why Dorian turned on Lily in this episode but I hated that Victor wanted to make her into a 'proper woman'. He can die for that one.

Lily's brand of feminism might be horrible and murderous but Dorian and Victor are almost the reason why she feels it's needed too. The backstory she got in this one was good though. Can we lose Justine though? I'm bored of her.

The scenes with Caliban/Vanessa and the former and his family were lovely.

Good to see that Ethan and Malcolm are back soon, 8/10

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, darkestboy said:

Lily's brand of feminism might be horrible and murderous but Dorian and Victor are almost the reason why she feels it's needed too.

But it's not feminism, that's the problem.  All she's saying is, "let's kill all the men."  Okay, then what?  Didn't think that far ahead?  Well then she shouldn't be leading anybody anywhere.  And I'm annoyed that she looked down her nose on the suffragettes. 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Neurochick

[qtpye]

On 6/13/2016 at 4:22 PM, redapplecigs said:

I never thought I'd live to see the day that I heartily rooted for Lily to triumph. But then I watched that scene with her chained while 3 men tell her how they plan to "save" her, to remake her into their respective ideals for a woman (and promptly threw up a little bit in my mouth).  I want her to destroy each of them and their smug senses of self-satisfaction. Does anyone know is she has Caliban/Clare's superhuman strength? If so, that chain won't hold her for long.

Dorian is still a boring, non-entity to me, so I won't miss him if he dies. We've barely had a chance to know Dr. Jekyl, so it's a big "meh" to me if he dies. I don't think I can ever like or enjoy Victor again after this. He is totally repulsive to me now.

Ethan's story continues to make no sense to me. I truly believe it was a mistake to separate the main players from each other all season long.

Vanessa looked lovely as always last night. I too was surprised by her giving in to Dracula with so little fuss. But as someone upthread mentioned, season after season of Vanessa just saying no to evil is certainly a bit tedious.

I am also surprised to find that I desperately want a happy ending for John Clare. His scene with Vanessa was so lovely, as were his scenes with his family. I would hate to lose the actor, but maybe one fucking character on this show can exit stage left with a bright future ahead.

Looking forward to seeing the gang all together again.

I was wondering about Lily's superhuman strength.  I mean does she have any super powers, or is she just an ordinary woman who just happens to have been brought back to life.  Will she age or suffer sickness?

13 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I thought the hands on the table was pushing it.  I really don't like Lily (well, I can't stand Billie Piper).  To me, Lily is a terrorist and what most terrorists never think about is the end game.  She's so concerned about winning that she doesn't realize that once you win a revolution, you then have to create a society; someone has to do the shit work.  Can those women, living in Dorian's home, read and write or do math?  Is Lily teaching them?  No, well then I do agree with Dorian, she's quite boring.

It's ridiculous when you put all of a group into an evil or good category.  Yes, some men are horrible and women have no power in Victorian England.  However, there are and were many men who are hard working people who love their families.  Also, not all women are good.  She is also talking about empowerment when everything she has is dependent upon Dorian's weird interests.

I am also not a Billie Piper fan.  Sometimes I feel that Dorian and Victor are so enraptured with her, because she is supposed to be so beautiful (therefore much happier sweet and submissive, in Victor's eyes), which is also annoying. 

My guess is that something is going to go wrong and the needle meant for Lily will accidentally get injected into Dr. Jekyll.  I wold love to see this show's version of Mr. Hyde before the season/ series ends.

Edited June 15, 2016 by qtpye

[Neurochick]

1 minute ago, qtpye said:

I am also not a Billie Piper fan.  Sometimes I feel that Dorian and Victor are so enraptured with her, because she is supposed to be so beautiful (therefore much happier sweet and submissive, in Victor's eyes), which is also annoying. 

I think that's the problem I have with Lily.  I think Billie Piper is rather plain looking, so when these men all think she's the most beautiful woman they've ever seen, I'm like, "you need to get out more."

[iMonrey]

For Dorian, I think the attraction is that she's a freak (for lack of a better word). He seems drawn to the outcasts, like Angelique last season. He also seems to tire of them very quickly; he may have a touch of ADD.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Penny Dreadful Plays Its Cards

Everyone on Penny Dreadful makes a big decision this week! Whose is the worst?

[Bec]

This character "development" for Victor seems forced to me, really, since he never was all that bothered with whether a woman is "proper" around Vanessa. It would make more sense if this is more about him wanting a science-y way to make his creations stop going on killing sprees. Just killing them is not very science-y, after all.

But the show had a theme in mind and had to cram Victor's character into that theme whether he really fit or not. I’m sorry to say it, but if the ratings are low, they do deserve to be low this season. There are far too many poorly thought-out plot-lines with unfortunate implications.

I think they're making feminism look bad. I'm afraid I no longer think that little speech condescending to the suffragists was meant as dramatic irony.

Wasn’t the whole point of that scene the show trying to convince us Lily is not actually any sort of feminist? (Probably wanted to avoid having feminists be like “Lily is a caricature of feminism.”) I’m not sure it worked, since Lily is still making people think of feminism. She’s basically a straw feminist (someone’s idea of what a feminist is if they hate feminists), even though the show didn’t exactly mean for her to be one.

I don’t know if I’m supposed to be rooting for the gang of women on a murder spree or the dudes trying to drug up a woman to make her docile. I’m leaning towards going with the murder-ladies. Because we don’t actually have any gang of murder-ladies roaming the streets killing abusive men in real life, so it’s firmly in the realm of fantasy.

If they could gives us a Lily, Dorian and new murderous girl threesome, which no one asked for, they could give me this. LOL!

Hee! I would go one further and demand they give us a Dorian/Ethan/Victor threesome.

[sjohnson]

1 hour ago, Bec said:

Wasn’t the whole point of that scene the show trying to convince us Lily is not actually any sort of feminist? (Probably wanted to avoid having feminists be like “Lily is a caricature of feminism.”) I’m not sure it worked, since Lily is still making people think of feminism. She’s basically a straw feminist (someone’s idea of what a feminist is if they hate feminists), even though the show didn’t exactly mean for her to be one.

I don’t know if I’m supposed to be rooting for the gang of women on a murder spree or the dudes trying to drug up a woman to make her docile. I’m leaning towards going with the murder-ladies. Because we don’t actually have any gang of murder-ladies roaming the streets killing abusive men in real life, so it’s firmly in the realm of fantasy.

I had hoped that was what the suffragette scene meant. But it's really hard to believe Victor was willing to have Lily skip wearing corsets and heels because of his ruthless ideological commitment to the womanly proprieties. Or that a man so bent on repressing his woman would have let her out to a party in the first place. Yet the show clearly does not intend for Victor to have meant that a proper woman doesn't go around killing men and threatening to kill people who annoy her and generally aiming for world domination. The show specifically means for us to despise and hate Victor as the true, and worst, monster. 

You have a point at the fantasy nature of the murder-ladies killing johns and adulterous husbands and abusive men. I kind of agree with it in a way. The thing is, it's hard to read some of the show as deliberate nonsense intended to titillate while reading other parts as metaphors about real things that should be taken seriously. The scene where Dorian paid Brona for nude photos, then screwed her for the fun of her bloody cough, makes him the better candidate for a lighthearted revenge fantasy for women who hate prissy, severely repressed virgins who can't get over their first woman and latch onto her like death. Even Ethan has a better claim to have oppressed Brona, having dumped her and taken up with Vanessa. I think it would be much easier if Brona hated Frankenstein for turning her into Lily, which really would be a male domination thing I think. Except it was John Clare's idea, and Brona wants to be Lily. 

[Bec]

Yeah, I'm with you on that, Victor is a monster in some ways, his scientific curiosity knows no ethical bounds. But dominance over others hasn't been his thing. Whatever happened to the guy who used to mock solipsistic self-aggrandizement?

Seriously, I agree that it wasn't even necessary to have Victor become some kind of sinister controlling figure to serve the story. All the abuse Brona has suffered from being a battered wife then a prostitute is enough to justify her anger and have it make sense that she would lash out once she realizes she is now more powerful as Lily. And since he's the one who unleashed this creature onto the world to wreck havoc, it would still make sense for Victor to want to stop her. Then the struggle could be "Is she doing the world a favor by killing horrible people? Would it be the right thing to stop her? Is it better to kill her off once and for all? Or keep her alive and find a way to curb her homicidal ways?" Could have been an interesting dilemma.

Instead we get Victor wanting Lily to be his mind-controlled girlfriend, which just makes for an annoying story.

Lily willingly teaming up with Dorian never really made sense, so I thought she had some kind of secret plan behind that, but now she just looks stupid for trusting Dorian way too much.

Ethan never dumped Brona, though. He thinks she's dead. He doesn't know Victor brought her back to life. Still waiting for the other shoe to drop on that. When is he and Lily going to run into each other already? It's been nearly two seasons now!

[LadyChaos]

2 hours ago, Bec said:

Yeah, I'm with you on that, Victor is a monster in some ways, his scientific curiosity knows no ethical bounds. But dominance over others hasn't been his thing. Whatever happened to the guy who used to mock solipsistic self-aggrandizement?

Seriously, I agree that it wasn't even necessary to have Victor become some kind of sinister controlling figure to serve the story. All the abuse Brona has suffered from being a battered wife then a prostitute is enough to justify her anger and have it make sense that she would lash out once she realizes she is now more powerful as Lily. And since he's the one who unleashed this creature onto the world to wreck havoc, it would still make sense for Victor to want to stop her. Then the struggle could be "Is she doing the world a favor by killing horrible people? Would it be the right thing to stop her? Is it better to kill her off once and for all? Or keep her alive and find a way to curb her homicidal ways?" Could have been an interesting dilemma.

Instead we get Victor wanting Lily to be his mind-controlled girlfriend, which just makes for an annoying story.

Lily willingly teaming up with Dorian never really made sense, so I thought she had some kind of secret plan behind that, but now she just looks stupid for trusting Dorian way too much.

Ethan never dumped Brona, though. He thinks she's dead. He doesn't know Victor brought her back to life. Still waiting for the other shoe to drop on that. When is he and Lily going to run into each other already? It's been nearly two seasons now!

One of my favorite quotes I read after reading Frankenstein is this : "Knowledge is knowing that Frankenstein is not the monster. Wisdom is knowing that Frankenstein is the monster."

[sjohnson]

4 hours ago, Bec said:

Ethan never dumped Brona, though. He thinks she's dead. He doesn't know Victor brought her back to life. Still waiting for the other shoe to drop on that. When is he and Lily going to run into each other already? It's been nearly two seasons now!

Oops, sorry, I was joking, but forgot I'm not funny. It was supposed to be a little snark about Ethan abandoning Vanessa too, even when last season he was taking responsibility for killing Sembene ( who I guess doesn't count any more, since he's been replaced by Kaetenay.) Since Lily has always remembered Ethan, she evidently doesn't care. Unlike John Clare she's not disfigured so it's doubtful that she's afraid. She always could have reached him through his acquaintances Dorian and Vanessa, who she met with Ethan at the Grand Guignol Theater back in season one. And Ethan's forgotten her any how. For me a meeting now would be incredibly anti-climactic.

2 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

One of my favorite quotes I read after reading Frankenstein is this : "Knowledge is knowing that Frankenstein is not the monster. Wisdom is knowing that Frankenstein is the monster."

I'm not sure I understand. One of the simplest, most plausible readings of the novel is that Frankenstein, not the creature, is the real monster, because he's playing God, which is monstrous, even when God plays God. Frankenstein being the real monster because he's usurping God's role is, at a guess, the second most plausible reading. The idea the creature is the monster because of the murders he commits is a plausible misreading, the one beloved of movie and TV, including Penny Dreadful where making the creature is more or less a hobby, irrelevant, to him being a monster to women his entire life.

[LadyChaos]

2 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

I'm not sure I understand. One of the simplest, most plausible readings of the novel is that Frankenstein, not the creature, is the real monster, because he's playing God, which is monstrous, even when God plays God. Frankenstein being the real monster because he's usurping God's role is, at a guess, the second most plausible reading. The idea the creature is the monster because of the murders he commits is a plausible misreading, the one beloved of movie and TV, including Penny Dreadful where making the creature is more or less a hobby, irrelevant, to him being a monster to women his entire life.

The quote basically boils down to this: If you've read the book than you know that the creature is a monster, but if you understand the book then you understand that Frankenstein is an even bigger monster than the one he created.

[Ravenya003]

Feminists/suffragettes want equality. Lily wants vengeance. For all the show's faults, the writing has been explicitly clear on this. 

 

Quote

I'm not sure I understand. One of the simplest, most plausible readings of the novel is that Frankenstein, not the creature, is the real monster, because he's playing God, which is monstrous, even when God plays God. Frankenstein being the real monster because he's usurping God's role is, at a guess, the second most plausible reading.

The "knowledge = Frankenstein isn't the monster, wisdom = Frankenstein IS the monster" comes from the fact that a LOT of people who haven't read the book but know the basic storyline believe that the monster's name is Frankenstein, when in fact the doctor is called Frankenstein. Knowledge of the book involves knowing Frankenstein is not the monster-character.

But WISDOM (which is not the same as knowledge) involves understanding that Doctor Frankenstein, who played God and took little responsibility for his creation, was the true monster of the tale. 

The quote is basically meant to underlie the differences between knowledge and wisdom.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Ravenya003

[paramitch]

I think this season is amazing. I love the chances Logan has taken, and how splitting up our Victorian Superfriends team has actually helped to explore and enrich each of the characters.

And I think this has been an advantage to Vanessa, too. While I adore her, I think that when the group is together, they all tend to focus on her. So for me, the separation has worked to give new attention to others -- for example, the beautiful scene between Ethan and Malcolm here. 

And for me, that scene -- and others like it -- is the hidden strength of "Penny Dreadful." It's about those little moments, the connections, the glimpses of sympathy, companionship and family. 

I also think that Billie Piper is absolutely killing it as Lily. I thought she was fantastic last season, but this season I feel like she's found a new complexity -- she is able to make Lily fierce, vengeful and inhuman and yet also there are those traces of humanity -- of sadness, empathy, loss, and love. It's incredibly sad to me that she -- a monster -- was far kinder to Victor than he (who sees himself as a hero) has been to her.

On 6/12/2016 at 8:19 PM, GenieinTX said:

Out of everyone, I think I'm most afraid for Mr. Claire.  This show doesn't give happy endings.  His looks so sweet but I'm so worried the rug is going to be pulled out from under him next week.

I'm afraid for him too, but I loved the unexpected acceptance he found with his wife and child, and that it was actually kind of shocking. I love the fact that the show's biggest surprises are so often its moments of sweetness. I know it will probably end badly, but I was happy for him (and adored the quiet understated way Vanessa showed that she recognized him).

On 6/12/2016 at 10:38 PM, rozen said:

Dorian is really the most dangerous character of the show. When he so amiably said he was bored, and complained about how noisy revolutions were, I knew shit was going to go down. I think the little kitten is going to find his portrait.

I thought that scene between Dorian and Brona, just before her kidnapping, was easily Reeve Carney's best moment on the show so far. He was genuinely chilling. When Dorian gets bored, things definitely go to hell for the people who love him. Just ask Angelique. (And speaking of which: If Angie could find the painting, it's not even a question that Justine will do so.) 

On 6/12/2016 at 10:59 PM, Glade said:

It seems obvious though that someone other then Lily is going to get injected with that serum, otherwise how could Mr. Hyde be born?

Vanessa's scenes with John Claire are always gold, and tonight was no exception.  I love that she was the one who encouraged him to take the leap, and that she brought up their past connection with such measured grace.  It was incredible when she mentioned Mina, and I am glad that they finally addressed why Dracula appears as a human and not as the monster from S1.  It does make a lot of sense, that after so many temptations, Vanessa would finally give herself over to the darkness.

The sad thing is, if Jekyll is already so soulless, what is Hyde going to be? I'd be interested if he in fact turns out to have a measure of his own self-awareness (as with John Clare or in the underrated Mary Reilly). 

Dracula's ability to appear as a human and walk in daylight is actually very true to the novel. Meanwhile, I love Vanessa's scenes with Clare and always will. They're always lovely.

On 6/13/2016 at 5:56 AM, ElleMo said:

Ethan's story line confuses me too. Was it ever explained why Katenay killed Ethan's family? And when he did so, why did he let the father live? And when/how did Ethan become a werewolf? And why is he hanging with the guy that killed his mother, little sister and brother?

Kaetenay killed Ethan's family because Ethan had killed his family. Ethan presented himself to Kaetenay after participating in the massacre, expecting to be scalped, but Kaetenay's revenge was more subtle and terrible: He took Ethan in as family, as part of the tribe. And then at the first opportunity, he killed Ethan's family in return. So Ethan certainly has reason to kill Kaetenay but that goes both ways. Instead, I find it more intriguing that both acknowledge the love and hate each feels for the other, and that they are irrevocably intertwined. In other words, they're family. (Even if I do think Kaetenay's days are numbered.)

It's interesting that it's not clear that Malcolm knows about Ethan (I keep wondering if Sembene told him). However, whether via Kaetenay or other means, I do suspect that Malcolm knows about Ethan at this point. 

On 6/13/2016 at 6:07 AM, BuddhaBelly said:

Finally they've made good use of Dorian. Reeve Carney actually showed menace and showed all us he can actually be very, very dangerous. (snip for space)

I really am having a hard time believing that Vanessa would give in that easily.

Agreed on Dorian. I thought it was some of Reeve Carney's best work.

As far as Vanessa -- I bought it. I think she's exhausted. She's tired. She's fought and fought and tried so hard to be good only to literally be abandoned by God. This season, she was alone and desperately lonely. She had already fallen in love with Dracula and the most insidious thing of all is that none of that was actually quite a lie -- I do believe Sweet is Dracula and Dracula is Sweet. His speech to her about conformity and loneliness was absolutely brilliant.

On 6/13/2016 at 9:54 AM, RedheadZombie said:

The writing is certainly not up to previous standards.  So many unanswered questions, and no evidence that the characters realize it.  Still no answers as to who cursed Ethan?  He was going to kill Kaetenay on sight.  He left Kaetenay to die in the desert.  Now Ethan is expressing love for the guy?  It's an unearned transition, it's poor writing, and it's frustrating.

(snipped for space)

I think the writing has done no favors with both Ethan and Vanessa this season.  Giving themselves over to evil after fighting it so hard is devastating.  And Ethan's quick reversal is confusing.  Are we supposed to believe that Hecate cast a spell that was ended by her death?  I don't know.

I disagree on the writing. In terms of the unanswered questions, I'm not watching the show to get a list of answers -- we do get a fair amount of new information each season (usually leading to even more questions), and those illuminations are really fun for me.

In terms of Ethan and Kaetenay, as I addressed above, I see the relationship as equal parts love and hate. Ethan killed Kaetenay's tribe. Kaetenay killed Ethan's family, but he was only able to get to that point by making Ethan a part of his family. They love and hate each other. I believe it and think the writing backs it up.

I don't think Hecate was actually very important to Ethan. Instead, I think -- in a deliberate echo of Vanessa this season -- that Ethan was simply depressed and sad and attempted to simply give up, to lose himself. Which was a natural extension of his giving himself up to begin with. It wasn't so much about him being evil, as him being incredibly tired and worn down at being harnessed by powers he couldn't control, for evil. He can't stop turning into the Wolf, or killing when he becomes one. So I bought that he hit a point where he was just, like, "Fine, I kill people, I'm evil. I'll go with it." The problem is that he couldn't sustain it. And the conversation with Malcolm showed why. He can't leave his family or his humanity behind (his real family -- our Penny Dreadful family).

On 6/13/2016 at 6:27 PM, Neurochick said:

I thought it was an interesting parallel Victor/Lily and Vanessa/Dracula.  Victor wants Lily to be different, to be something other than what she is; while Dracula told Vanessa that he loves her BECAUSE of who she is.  I can almost understand why Vanessa allowed herself to be seduced by Dracula.  It's seductive for someone to love you because of who you are, instead of in spite of who you are.

Really great point. I've really enjoyed Dr. Sweet and Vanessa because the presentation was so subtle and sly. And season-wise, it also parallels nicely with Ethan and Ethan/Hecate -- Ethan wants to abandon who he was just as Vanessa does. Hecate offered Ethan a capitulation and letting-go that was very similar to what Vanessa chose with Dracula.

Meanwhile, it's interesting that Lily is the inverse -- she is fighting not to lose herself, but to desperately hold on to who she is and what she has become.

On 6/13/2016 at 9:38 PM, Tech Noir said:

Erm. I actually find him VERY attractive but it looks like I'm alone in that.

I've liked Christian Camargo since his work on "Dexter," and think he's extremely sexy as Dracula. He's kind of surprised me (in a good way).

On 6/14/2016 at 4:37 PM, Wanderdown said:

Vanessa, to the Creature: You're a kind, generous soul.

I wanted to see someone else come in.  "Uh, Miss Ives?  There's a Mr. Proteus and a Mr. Van Helsing who would like to speak with you."

I will never forget my darling Mr. Proteus, so I'm totally with you. But I've been surprised that John Clare seems to fully own his monstrous actions since then, and he's evolved so much I kind of forgive him. And it fits with the show -- every single person on PD is seeking redemption and to overcome some past action.

22 hours ago, Neurochick said:

But it's not feminism, that's the problem.  All she's saying is, "let's kill all the men."  Okay, then what?  Didn't think that far ahead?  Well then she shouldn't be leading anybody anywhere.  And I'm annoyed that she looked down her nose on the suffragettes. 

How is it not feminism? It's Baroque and distorted -- it's a Victorian horror-verse. But it's certainly feminism. Lily is a character who was used by men like a disposable rag, murdered by a man she thought was her doctor and friend, used again as a blank sex doll by the man who murdered, reanimated and caged her, then kidnapped and recaged when she didn't act according to expectations.

The most surprising thing about Lily for me this season hasn't been her rage, but her compassion. She has shown herself more human than ever before. She mourns not just Brona, or Brona's humanity and lost child, but her own innocence, as well as the lost innocence and lost children of far too many women of her time. She is twisted and broken, but loving. She wants to be an avenging angel -- to me it is a believable and heartbreaking twist.

Lily's vision of changing the world is naive and sad, but believable. She's a literal child, a reanimated being still trying to find her place (it's interesting to point out that she is far less monstrous than John Clare was at a similar stage). And then the man she loves colluded with the man who murdered and used her in order to cage her and turn her back into a good little mindless doll again.

So, me, I love Lily. I'm totally rooting for her to knock off some heads and wreak some vengeance. And I think Billie Piper has been amazing in the role -- some of the best work she's ever done. My favorite moment was when she had found herself in Bedlam, and drugged, chained, and demeaned, as a doll to be fixed -- and she looked up at Dorian, and all her rage came out, and she said, "You fucking c***," and it was Brona's voice, not Lily's. Just a wonderful flash of the mix of personalities at war in Lily.

And I am rooting for her all the way. I was initially shallowly swayed by Dr. Jekyll because he is ridiculously handsome, but I'm slightly disappointed to find that, unlike his literary counterpart, Jekyll himself is pretty terrible. I therefore look forward to Lily kicking his ass.

[sjohnson]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

Meanwhile, it's interesting that Lily is the inverse -- she is fighting not to lose herself, but to desperately hold on to who she is and what she has become...

How is it not feminism? It's Baroque and distorted -- it's a Victorian horror-verse. But it's certainly feminism. Lily is a character who was used by men like a disposable rag, murdered by a man she thought was her doctor and friend, used again as a blank sex doll by the man who murdered, reanimated and caged her, then kidnapped and recaged when she didn't act according to expectations.

The most surprising thing about Lily for me this season hasn't been her rage, but her compassion....

Very strong post in many ways, but...Brona is not Lily, Lily isn't who she is, yet she prefers what she was made into. 

I'm not sure anyone can really say a revenge fantasy is really a political program. But maybe I dislike the notion because I'm not much into revenge fantasies and they can be awfully indiscriminate in their targets. More problematically, Brona didn't consider Frankenstein her friend, and she sort of gave consent. The one who ordered her creation was John Clare. Frankenstein didn't cage her. And it was Lily's decision to seduce Frankenstein, not something he did to her.  The difficulty with seeing Lily as righteous avenger is that she gave Clare a free pass, and actually sucks up to Dorian, while both have better claim to her scorn than Frankenstein. It's almost as if the animus against Frankenstein is more about his prissiness, his weakness, his geekiness, his poverty, his lack of class...in short his gall in thinking he might be in her league. 

Your argument is less compelling when I remember past episodes.

[RedheadZombie]

Something I'm confused with is how easy it will be for the gang to save Vanessa.  Why I'm confused is how the story was written for Mina.  Per the show, Mina was unsalvageable in the end.  She was a vampire, there was no going back, Malcolm made his decision, and he chose Vanessa.  So what I'm wondering is this - why won't they feel the same about Vanessa?  I know Ethan had nothing invested in Mina and he loves Vanessa, but it was actually Malcolm's realization that Mina was beyond help.  So I hope there is some sort of reasoning applied.  After all, Vanessa has the mother of evil inside of her, and one might think that saving her would actually be more difficult than saving Mina.  But what I'm guessing is the old trope of - kill Dracula, and his minions will be released.  Therefore Vanessa will be cured, and will live on to be tormented by evil next season (fingers crossed).

19 hours ago, Bec said:

Yeah, I'm with you on that, Victor is a monster in some ways, his scientific curiosity knows no ethical bounds. But dominance over others hasn't been his thing. Whatever happened to the guy who used to mock solipsistic self-aggrandizement?

Seriously, I agree that it wasn't even necessary to have Victor become some kind of sinister controlling figure to serve the story. All the abuse Brona has suffered from being a battered wife then a prostitute is enough to justify her anger and have it make sense that she would lash out once she realizes she is now more powerful as Lily. And since he's the one who unleashed this creature onto the world to wreck havoc, it would still make sense for Victor to want to stop her. Then the struggle could be "Is she doing the world a favor by killing horrible people? Would it be the right thing to stop her? Is it better to kill her off once and for all? Or keep her alive and find a way to curb her homicidal ways?" Could have been an interesting dilemma.

Instead we get Victor wanting Lily to be his mind-controlled girlfriend, which just makes for an annoying story.

I agree, with one small exception.  Brona never married her abuser.  He was her fiancé.  One day after hurting her, she went and confided in her mother.  When her mother told her to go back to him, Brona sold herself for the first time that day.

1 hour ago, sjohnson said:

Very strong post in many ways, but...Brona is not Lily, Lily isn't who she is, yet she prefers what she was made into. 

I'm not sure anyone can really say a revenge fantasy is really a political program. But maybe I dislike the notion because I'm not much into revenge fantasies and they can be awfully indiscriminate in their targets. More problematically, Brona didn't consider Frankenstein her friend, and she sort of gave consent. The one who ordered her creation was John Clare. Frankenstein didn't cage her. And it was Lily's decision to seduce Frankenstein, not something he did to her.  The difficulty with seeing Lily as righteous avenger is that she gave Clare a free pass, and actually sucks up to Dorian, while both have better claim to her scorn than Frankenstein. It's almost as if the animus against Frankenstein is more about his prissiness, his weakness, his geekiness, his poverty, his lack of class...in short his gall in thinking he might be in her league. 

Your argument is less compelling when I remember past episodes.

I agree with your interpretation. I didn't see Victor treating Lily as a sex doll.  I saw Lily climbing into bed with Victor and initiating sex.  He was a bumbling fool.  He couldn't have seduced her without her leading the way.  I also agree that Brona much prefers being Lily, and I think that's why she doesn't feel hatred toward Victor.  What I don't understand is what she gained by playing sweet Lily in love with Victor.  She created this love-sick Victor who's obsessed with her.  She's lucky that John Clare/Caliban had other more pressing matters.  Otherwise she'd might be fending him off as well.

This whole story just turns me inside out because I feel more for Victor which confuses me on so many levels (as I'm a feminist).  If Victor is supposed to be a monster, they shouldn't have spent so much time humanizing him in the first season.  His care and love for Vanessa.  His outrage at the "ridiculous man" priest who refused to help Vanessa other than the bare minimum he's required by the church.  His crush on Lily and not wanting her forced to conform to expectations that are harmful - like a corset.  It's just destroying the whole story because I can't seem to hate him.  What I'm guessing (hoping) is he will turn on Dorian/Jekyll and ultimately release Lily.  I do feel that the show doesn't really want the audience to full on hate Victor, and having Lily be almost tender toward Victor is to aid that intention.

While I've disliked Billie Piper since the beginning, I think she's killing it as Lily.  Shedding the hideous Irish accent, and releasing my beloved Ethan was a good start.  But I think the character of Lily really plays to BP's strengths.  So while I don't enjoy Lily's story line, I do recognize that it's well acted.  And it could possibly be compelling in another story, but for me it's just time away from my most loved characters.  And with the evolution of the character, I really hope Lily and Ethan never meet again.  It would break him to know what happened (he carries enough guilt as it is), and it would ruin any chance of the gang being together whole again.

And thinking about Ethan with Brona really reminds me of how much I love the guy.  He's from this rich family, yet he never felt above the poor prostitute Brona.  He truly loved her, and had no problem taking her out and introducing her to Vanessa at the Grand Guignol.  And while Brona was alive, I think his love for Vanessa was purely platonic.  Which, of course, is why Brona had to die.

[iMonrey]

Quote

This character "development" for Victor seems forced to me, really, since he never was all that bothered with whether a woman is "proper" around Vanessa. It would make more sense if this is more about him wanting a science-y way to make his creations stop going on killing sprees. Just killing them is not very science-y, after all.

I'm not sure this is meant as a "character development." I don't think Victor really cares one way or another whether a woman is "proper." His beef is that Lily left him, period. He's obsessed with her and will do anything to get her back so he is rationalizing his actions by saying she needs to be "fixed." He thinks if he can "fix" her she'll come to her senses and love him back.

I'm not sure what Dorian gets out of this though; if Victor succeeds, she leaves Dorian for Victor. Perhaps he's gambling on Lily being made docile while still not opting for Victor. Or maybe he just doesn't really care about her anymore and wants to put a stop to her army of whores.

[LadyChaos]

The thing I think people are forgetting is that until Brona lay dying in her own blood, Victor had never met her.  In his mind it was only a matter of minutes before she died anyway, so likely felt that he was ending her suffering.  He never knew her past before that, I know Ethan talked about her a lot, but I highly doubted he said she was a prostitute who had been abused and beaten for years.   For all Victor knew the Lily that was reborn, was Lily's personality.  Lily intentionally misled him until she found something better.  She acted as though she remembered nothing when she remembered everything.  She intentionally crawled into bed with him with the intention so seducing him. She played on his weaknesses to get him to want her, until she found something better.  He never stopped her from going out, he even said that he wanted her to have a life.  He only didn't like her spending time with Dorian, and let's face it, in the 1800's that would have been a HUGE NO NO spending time in public with a man you were not related to or intended to marry without a chaperone. Victor was a afraid he would lose her to Dorian's grander lifestyle that he knew he could not give her, and then she did leave him.  She showed her true colors when she finally had a man whom she felt was her physical equal, but that she thought she could manipulate too. Only Dorian wasn't having that. He turned on her as soon as she started to turn his house in the shelter for her wayward murdering whores and cast him aside. When they said 'make you a proper woman'  I don't think they meant it because that's what they really want for her, I think he said to just get to her. The proper woman, is probably what she most hates and doesn't want to be so as added measure lets piss her off.

I'm not defending their actions, I'm just saying that, IMO, she has thoroughly earned being in her current postion. However, personally I would have rather Dorian had just killed her outright a couple episodes ago before the 'cut of their hands' scene.   

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not sure this is meant as a "character development." I don't think Victor really cares one way or another whether a woman is "proper." His beef is that Lily left him, period. He's obsessed with her and will do anything to get her back so he is rationalizing his actions by saying she needs to be "fixed." He thinks if he can "fix" her she'll come to her senses and love him back.

I'm not sure what Dorian gets out of this though; if Victor succeeds, she leaves Dorian for Victor. Perhaps he's gambling on Lily being made docile while still not opting for Victor. Or maybe he just doesn't really care about her anymore and wants to put a stop to her army of whores.

I'm inclined to think that Dorian is just done with her, but he knows what she is so maybe he thinks he cant just kill her. However, he cant help but get his little dig into her for the way she has treated him and his home for months, and he is probably a little interested in seeing if this even works... I'm betting it doesn't work on her.

Edited June 17, 2016 by LadyChaos

[ganesh]

This episode looked good if I could actually see it. 

[ganesh]

On 6/14/2016 at 6:36 PM, Neurochick said:

Can those women, living in Dorian's home, read and write or do math?  Is Lily teaching them?  No?  Well then I do agree with Dorian, she's quite boring.

I thought this was perfect. As soon as Dorian said 'boring', I said 'uh oh.' I'm hoping the little brat doesn't find the painting though. She's not nearly as smart as she thinks she is, but Dorian's own arrogance could do him in. I have no problem with Piper though. Angelique seemed like more fun at least. 

I think Sweet is going to realize he's got way way way more than he can handle with Miss Ives. 

[Bort]

Please keep discussion to the episode itself. Speculation and media discussion need to be in their appropriate threads. If your post is missing, it was moved to a thread best fit for the subject it was discussing.

[Bec]

On 6/17/2016 at 1:52 AM, iMonrey said:

I'm not sure this is meant as a "character development." I don't think Victor really cares one way or another whether a woman is "proper." His beef is that Lily left him, period. He's obsessed with her and will do anything to get her back

Yeah, that's a good point. I do think you're right about that.

It’s funny, Caliban used to be the male character who felt entitled to have a woman, now he's John Clare, and he's no longer “that guy”, but the show has made Victor into “that guy” instead.

I always thought the Victor Frankenstein of the book was a huge asshole, but the show's version of Victor used to be more complex than that (yes, he was humanized a lot), and I thought that was great. At this point he seems rather one note, and that's been disappointing this season. I hope the theory upthread that he's gonna regret his actions and free Lily is true!

I would still like Lily to run into Ethan. Hey, if Ethan can still hang out with the guy who murdered his mother and sister, he can forgive Victor for reanimating Brona (and boinking her)... right?

[Hecate7]

On 6/15/2016 at 9:16 AM, Neurochick said:

But it's not feminism, that's the problem.  All she's saying is, "let's kill all the men."  Okay, then what?  Didn't think that far ahead?  Well then she shouldn't be leading anybody anywhere.  And I'm annoyed that she looked down her nose on the suffragettes. 

Exactly! She's not thinking ahead at all. She's just thinking in punitive terms, not in terms of any kind of real freedom. Sure, a slave rebellion involves killing a few of the masters, but it's not enough to jsut do that. And her attitude towards the suffragettes is fascinating to me--I think she's just jealous.

[millennium]

Lily's O-Ren-Ishi moment, when she's crawling down the long table exhorting the whores to cut off the right hands blah blah blah was the most cringeworthy scene in the series so far.   Poorly acted, ludicrous and self-important, it seemed entirely out of character with everything that has gone before. 

When Lily asked Heckel and Jekyll what they were planning to do with her, I hoped they would say "We are going to make you interesting again."

When instead they replied, "We are going to make you a proper woman," I thought oh that's right, Jekyll has a serum for that too, recalling the Hammer film, Dr. Jekyll and Sister Hyde.

Vanessa giving herself over to evil was no more convincing that Ethan choosing evil.   It made no sense given the history and portrayal of their characters to this point. 

What a misbegotten mess.

[Bruinsfan]

On 6/13/2016 at 3:22 PM, redapplecigs said:

I never thought I'd live to see the day that I heartily rooted for Lily to triumph. But then I watched that scene with her chained while 3 men tell her how they plan to "save" her, to remake her into their respective ideals for a woman (and promptly threw up a little bit in my mouth).  I want her to destroy each of them and their smug senses of self-satisfaction. Does anyone know is she has Caliban/Clare's superhuman strength? If so, that chain won't hold her for long.

I wonder if Logan has forgotten about that. Caliban tore people limb from limb and easily dismantled that jail cell's bars last season, yet Lily handed him his ass when they fought and didn't so much as whimper when Victor shot her at close range. She should have easily snapped that ankle chain, or better yet swung the torture chair around by it like a cat-o-nine-tails after yanking it out of the floor. Apparently radical feminism not only makes you crazy, but physically helpless as well.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Bruinsfan