S02.E10: Prestonpans

[Athena]

Quote

Jamie uses Claire's knowledge of the future to lead the Jacobite army into battle against the British, while Claire tends to the wounded, a harsh reminder of the cost of war.

Note: This is the No Book Talk thread. No book talk including "It was different in the books." Bookwalkers are strongly discouraged from posting and liking in this thread.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Noooooooooo, not Angus!

Poor Fergus. Like so many boys and young men, he thought he wanted to be part of the fight and then learned how horrible war really is.

Loved the good natured pissing contest with Jamie and the redcoat! Of course BPC had to come in at that very moment to kill the mood.

Edited June 11, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Primetimer]

The Jacobite Rebellion is on, and the only thing standing in the way of their first military victory is some stupid mud.

View the full article

[nara]

I've got a little buzz on from my "Mark me" (read:  Mock me) drinking game.  ;)

As much as I will miss Angus, it made sense for us to see a major death.  This is a war and our friends cannot be completely unscathed.  RIP Angus.  I will miss the great bromance of the show.  

I'm glad that Fergus got a lesson in what war really is --with minimal impact to his well-being.  I hope this means he'll stay away from the fight going forward. Somehow, I doubt it.

Loved Dougal's fanboy behavior towards BPC, It's interesting that they ended up using Dougal's Highland form of fighting in this battle, not Jamie's disciplined style.  Dougal's testing of the the mud was also impressive.  I got the impression that Jamie always intended for him to do it, not Jamie himself, and kinda thought Jamie manipulated him into taking that risk.  Was I mistaken?  I will say that Dougal definitely does not lack for courage, but I hated what he later did to Jeremy Foster, my favorite redcoat! After, Dougal's display, I was worried that Jamie had put him in a position of influence with BPC, and that BPC might use his to replace the general.  Luckily Dougal's big mouth took care of that.  

I do agree with BPC that he has to balance defeating the English with the fact that he is claiming them to be his subjects.  However, that's not exactly a motivator for his troops.  I am worried that he is just using the Scots and if he wins will end up screwing them over somehow.  He does seem to not think so highly of them.  I also think he needs to understand that after a battle his men's blood with be up and they may say violent things about the enemy. 

So there has been no evidence if Jamie and Claire having sex--they seem really busy.  How is she going to get pregnant with the child she mentioned in Episode 1 of this season?  I feel like that needs to happen before the end of this season, even though there is no guarantee that we get back to that point in the story this season.

[toolazy]

They don't have to show us that they're having sex in order for us to know that they're having sex.  They don't show them eating or dressings or going to the bathroom, but we know that they do it.  

[nara]

Just now, toolazy said:

They don't have to show us that they're having sex in order for us to know that they're having sex.  They don't show them eating or dressings or going to the bathroom, but we know that they do it.  

True, but they seem to specifically show their romantic moments getting interrupted.  At least, that's my impression.  And the pregnancy seems to be a pretty important plot point.  Doesn't need to be graphic, but given how much time was devoted to them not being intimate, some reference to it would be appropriate in my opinion.  It could even have been a joke by Rupert and Angus :( about them going at it in the middle of a war zone.

 By the way, they have shown Jamie going to the bathroom in this episode AND the previous one! 

[toolazy]

Ha! Good point about Jamie's bathroom habits.  

I think that it's enough that they show that Jamie & Claire are close and intimate again, in stark contrast to the beginning of the season.  I don't think that her pregnancy reveal will be unbelievable at all.  

Still gutted about Angus.

[Daisy]

Angus!
at least he got his kiss from Claire.

My Poor Fergus. (hugs and kisses).  

This is pathetically sad. It is very obvious that BPC is using the Scots and really give zero craps about them, and yet they are dying for him and his stupid "Mark Me." Three more episodes left to go ... 

[terrymct]

That was the best episode of Outlander since the first half of season one.   

Jamie was actually acting as smart as he's supposed to be.   Test the bog, brilliant.   Save Dougal's bacon and get him out of your way at the same time, great idea.  I think Jamie also set Dougal and his band up to survive the Battle of Culloden potentially.   If they're out scouting, they may not be at the main battle.

Claire, bless her heart, was doing what she should do in support of the people she cares about.   What a happy surprise!   Her PTSD was shown in appropriate ways.  I do think she's going to consider putting a harness and leash on Fergus, though.

Bonnie Prince Charlie and Dougal were this show again showing ubermasculinity (Dougal is a hot, hot man) versus the fey and duplicitousness of less obvious sexuality.   The Prince stroking Dougal's cheek was about a stereotypically womanly move as he could have made in public.   The Prince is also demonstrating over and over again that his real people are the English and that the Scots are basically a useful tool for him to get where he wants to be.

I thought they did a good job this week of showing the ambiguities of battle, particularly among people who whether they like it or not are culturally related.  On both sides, it's real people and death and injury are ugly and painful.

Well done, Outlander, this is the show I've been missing for a long time now.

[iMonrey]

The bait and switch, where it seemed like Rupert was on the brink of death and Angus was fine, only to have Angus die suddenly and unexpectedly while Rupert survives, was very Grey's Anatomy. 

What was Angus trying to say, as he was gasping for his last breath? I couldn't make it out.

[whoknowswho]

On 6/12/2016 at 2:00 PM, iMonrey said:

The bait and switch, where it seemed like Rupert was on the brink of death and Angus was fine, only to have Angus die suddenly and unexpectedly while Rupert survives, was very Grey's Anatomy. 

What was Angus trying to say, as he was gasping for his last breath? I couldn't make it out.

I believe he was trying to say "Save me, save me, Mistress Claire". But that was hard to make out. He only got to the Mistress part.  

[ganesh]

I wonder how many of these guys are just too manly to disclose their injuries and died needlessly. 

I liked how Fergus was kind of real. He was freaked out. This is another thing with Claire going back in time. Fergus's life has to be completely changed now compared to the original timeline. 

How does Claire suddenly know the outcome of this battle when she said she knew not much before? 

I do really like that Murtaugh knows about everything. 

And whatever Charlie. You know damn well you weren't fighting. Mark this. 

I know it's not so easy, but just don't fight at Cullodeon? You know for a fact that you lose the whole thing. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Realized I never posted any comment about this episode until after I posted on the ep. 11 thread.  

I wasn't surprised by Angus' death, even though it seemed like they tried to set that up to be a surprise.  I was surprised no one (Claire) checked his back UNDER his shirt after the first mention of a cannon blast.  I would have thought Claire, with her battlefield experience would know better.  

I was actually more upset about Lt. Jeremy Foster's death.  I liked him.  He was a decent guy.  

I wasn't upset by Dougal going around the battlefield and delivering the final death blow to the wounded casualties who wouldn't have lived anyway.  I thought that was actually very humanitarian to put them out of their misery.  Until he killed Lt. Foster.  Uncle Dougal can now go crawl in a hole and die.

I thought Jamie totally played Dougal into taking the ride onto the bog.

On 6/11/2016 at 10:25 PM, nara said:

I've got a little buzz on from my "Mark me" (read:  Mock me) drinking game.  ;)

I thought of the drinking game when Charlie said Mock me.  :)  But I was already drinking, so...

On 6/11/2016 at 10:35 PM, toolazy said:

They don't have to show us that they're having sex in order for us to know that they're having sex.  

The show certainly didn't shy away from showing us last season, so what's up with the sudden Puritanism this season?  Seems like a classic bait and switch to me.

On 6/15/2016 at 2:17 PM, ganesh said:

How does Claire suddenly know the outcome of this battle when she said she knew not much before? 

Ha!  Thank you for remembering this!  There was a big debate about it in one or more of the threads.  And yet here, she conveniently remembers what the plot needs her to remember.  

On 6/15/2016 at 2:17 PM, ganesh said:

I know it's not so easy, but just don't fight at Cullodeon? You know for a fact that you lose the whole thing. 

Seriously.  No really.  Finally, a voice of reason about the whole thing.  I'm rather confused as to how the whole "let's go to war to avoid Culloden" plan is supposed to work anyway.

Edited June 18, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
fixed bad grammar

[paramitch]

First off, I am of serious Scottish descent, so the music, the fighting, the atmosphere in this episode had my Scottish blood just roaring along. Beautiful cinematography and music! (And beloved recapper who can't stand the sounds of bagpipes? Don't even talk to me. ;-) )

Dougal's trip across the bog had me terrified the entire time, but I loved his bravery, as well as his calm return,  the hug from BPC (!), followed by Dougal's calm admission to Jamie that he'd just "shat his breeks."

Dougal's such a great character because his strengths and weaknesses are so believably linked (for instance, he's fiery and unpredictable, but also has shown repentance for his sins toward Jamie and Claire, visible in his humility and willingness to listen when both Jamie and Claire have confronted him). I'd especially liked his past showdown with Claire, mainly because he knew she was right about his deceitfulness and past actions. But I also believed him when he countered passionately that he would die for this cause, and for a free Scotland, and he put his money where his mouth was yet again here. Then of course his emotions got the better of him and nearly got him kicked out of the war at the end (however I did think BPC might have taken a moment to remember that this was the guy who had risked his life in the bog for them).

On 6/11/2016 at 7:25 PM, nara said:

As much as I will miss Angus, it made sense for us to see a major death.  This is a war and our friends cannot be completely unscathed.  RIP Angus.  I will miss the great bromance of the show.  

I'm glad that Fergus got a lesson in what war really is --with minimal impact to his well-being.  I hope this means he'll stay away from the fight going forward. Somehow, I doubt it.

I will say that Dougal definitely does not lack for courage, but I hated what he later did to Jeremy Foster, my favorite redcoat! After, Dougal's display, I was worried that Jamie had put him in a position of influence with BPC, and that BPC might use his to replace the general.  Luckily Dougal's big mouth took care of that. 

I felt terrible at Angus's death and was worried there was some injury from the blast that he hadn't mentioned  to Claire (DAMMIT)! I'll miss his character a lot.

Meanwhile, I was freaking out for poor baby Fergus, so I was very glad he survived, even though that poor kid should now just curl up in a fetal position for a few months in recovery of all his traumas. And thanks to the first episode of this season, I hate knowing that he will certainly lose Claire (if not more) in the near future -- their bond is so sweet, and she's so motherly with him.

I love Dougal, but I also really liked Jeremy, and hated seeing Dougal do that. However, looking back to that time in history, so vividly brought to life again here, part of me understands it. My family is Scots-Irish, and my grandmother was a matriarch of the Campbell clan. So I get the fierce hatred and anger: The British are the invaders here. They have no business in Scotland (or later, in Ireland), and took everything from the Scots, brutalizing and abusing towns, villages, and ancient clans, redistributing lands, monies, crops and titles to minor English nobles and commanders willy-nilly. Dougal's treatment of poor honorable Jeremy here was cruel. But the English actions toward the Scots in this period had been crueler still, multiplied by the thousands. So I understand Dougal's unrelenting hatred even if I don't condone it.

The thing I'm interested in but haven't seen however is that, in real life, there were some (a very small number) Englishmen who 

supported Bonnie Prince Charlie and joined the Scottish forces in risking their lives in the Jacobite uprisings. I haven't read this book so keep wondering if they'll appear. 

On 6/12/2016 at 5:46 AM, terrymct said:

Jamie was actually acting as smart as he's supposed to be.   Test the bog, brilliant.   Save Dougal's bacon and get him out of your way at the same time, great idea.  I think Jamie also set Dougal and his band up to survive the Battle of Culloden potentially.   If they're out scouting, they may not be at the main battle.

Bonnie Prince Charlie and Dougal were this show again showing ubermasculinity (Dougal is a hot, hot man) versus the fey and duplicitousness of less obvious sexuality.   The Prince stroking Dougal's cheek was about a stereotypically womanly move as he could have made in public.   The Prince is also demonstrating over and over again that his real people are the English and that the Scots are basically a useful tool for him to get where he wants to be.

I thought they did a good job this week of showing the ambiguities of battle, particularly among people who whether they like it or not are culturally related.  On both sides, it's real people and death and injury are ugly and painful.

I agree with many points here -- especially on Dougal's hotness! Damn, McTavish is fabulous. Meanwhile, I thought this was a spectacular episode, beautifully filmed as always (this show's cinematography is consistently incredible), and I loved the small human moments as well as the majestic battle moments in the mist. (And interesting idea, that Jamie may have actually been deliberately setting up Dougal to survive Culloden!)

My single favorite moment, however, was the end of the episode, when Rupert and Ross are drunkenly singing in tribute to their friends and to forget the losses of the day.

And then the very last moment we see is after the last verse of the song ("Down, down, down, down among the dead men, let him lie"), Rupert just stares down, down, down, as if into the darkest abyss, looking absolutely destroyed. And then cut to black.

Amazing moment I'll remember for a long time.

Edited August 8, 2016 by paramitch
real-life battle spoiler-tag fix

[katville]

I absolutely agree with every point. Ending it with Rupert's crestfallen face was a brilliant choice. 

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 10:39 PM, paramitch said:

First off, I am of serious Scottish descent, so the music, the fighting, the atmosphere in this episode had my Scottish blood just roaring along. Beautiful cinematography and music! (And beloved recapper who can't stand the sounds of bagpipes? Don't even talk to me. ;-) )

Dougal's trip across the bog had me terrified the entire time, but I loved his bravery, as well as his calm return,  the hug from BPC (!), followed by Dougal's calm admission to Jamie that he'd just "shat his breeks."

Dougal's such a great character because his strengths and weaknesses are so believably linked (for instance, he's fiery and unpredictable, but also has shown repentance for his sins toward Jamie and Claire, visible in his humility and willingness to listen when both Jamie and Claire have confronted him). I'd especially liked his past showdown with Claire, mainly because he knew she was right about his deceitfulness and past actions. But I also believed him when he countered passionately that he would die for this cause, and for a free Scotland, and he put his money where his mouth was yet again here. Then of course his emotions got the better of him and nearly got him kicked out of the war at the end (however I did think BPC might have taken a moment to remember that this was the guy who had risked his life in the bog for them).

I felt terrible at Angus's death and was worried there was some injury from the blast that he hadn't mentioned  to Claire (DAMMIT)! I'll miss his character a lot.

Meanwhile, I was freaking out for poor baby Fergus, so I was very glad he survived, even though that poor kid should now just curl up in a fetal position for a few months in recovery of all his traumas. And thanks to the first episode of this season, I hate knowing that he will certainly lose Claire (if not more) in the near future -- their bond is so sweet, and she's so motherly with him.

I love Dougal, but I also really liked Jeremy, and hated seeing Dougal do that. However, looking back to that time in history, so vividly brought to life again here, part of me understands it. My family is Scots-Irish, and my grandmother was a matriarch of the Campbell clan. So I get the fierce hatred and anger: The British are the invaders here. They have no business in Scotland (or later, in Ireland), and took everything from the Scots, brutalizing and abusing towns, villages, and ancient clans, redistributing lands, monies, crops and titles to minor English nobles and commanders willy-nilly. Dougal's treatment of poor honorable Jeremy here was cruel. But the English actions toward the Scots in this period had been crueler still, multiplied by the thousands. So I understand Dougal's unrelenting hatred even if I don't condone it.

The thing I'm interested in but haven't seen however is that, in real life, there were some (a very small number) Englishmen who 

  Reveal spoiler

supported Bonnie Prince Charlie and joined the Scottish forces in risking their lives in the Jacobite uprisings. I haven't read this book so keep wondering if they'll appear. 

I agree with many points here -- especially on Dougal's hotness! Damn, McTavish is fabulous. Meanwhile, I thought this was a spectacular episode, beautifully filmed as always (this show's cinematography is consistently incredible), and I loved the small human moments as well as the majestic battle moments in the mist. (And interesting idea, that Jamie may have actually been deliberately setting up Dougal to survive Culloden!)

My single favorite moment, however, was the end of the episode, when Rupert and Ross are drunkenly singing in tribute to their friends and to forget the losses of the day.

And then the very last moment we see is after the last verse of the song ("Down, down, down, down among the dead men, let him lie"), Rupert just stares down, down, down, as if into the darkest abyss, looking absolutely destroyed. And then cut to black.

Amazing moment I'll remember for a long time.

I have to figure out how to use multiquote, I only wanted to quote a couple of your paragraphs.

I was so worried about Fergus the whole time. I'm so glad he has Claire and Jamie but when he came back after the battle all I could think was what's going to happen to him when Claire goes through the stones.

I knew either Rupert or Angus was going to die with the whole kiss me before I leave and no I don't need a kiss cause I'm coming back. Also, when Rupert refused to talk to Angus about what's mine is yours. Poor Rupert.

I couldn't understand what Angus was trying to say to Claire when he was dying.

I figured with the cannon blast Angus was injured and now we have Jamie stepped on by a horse. Ouch!

Great episode. Sad ending. War sucks.

[chaifan]

On 6/15/2016 at 2:17 PM, ganesh said:

How does Claire suddenly know the outcome of this battle when she said she knew not much before? 

I don't think she knew how the ambush/battle was going to play out.  She just made the "of course we'll win" comment because, really, what else should she have said?  "Eh?  I don't know.  Maybe you'll win, maybe you'll all be slaughtered."  That's not a way to send troops into battle. 

I liked the way Claire managed her nursing staff, including Fergus.  I have to wonder if she made it into the history books - some mention of a female healer who saved soldiers from both sides.  That would be fun to see when we jump back to 1948/54. 

[Camera One]

The episode description confused me: "Jamie uses Claire's knowledge of the future to lead the Jacobite army into battle against the British".  I don't remember that happening in the episode.  Claire said today, things might go alright (since this wasn't Culloden).  Did she say the raid was going to be a success?  

I seemed like they jumped over a bunch of stuff that I had been hoping to see, with the mentions of Edinburgh.  

It was a pretty brutal episode.  I figured Angus was going to be seriously injured even though he didn't know it, but I'm disappointed they killed him off.  Shows like this need recurring characters.  I'm kind of glad I don't remember Season 1 enough to recall the British soldier that Dougal killed because he seemed like a good guy and that would have been harder to watch.

It's interesting how the British "prisoners" were being attended to in the same barn when they were killing each other on the battlefield moments before.

I liked Claire's command of the nursing station, though I can't say I enjoyed this episode too much.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Camera One

[Anothermi]

Such a wonderful yet terrible episode. 

BPC: Your noble wife will be among those providing medical succor for those poor souls in need of such come the cannon's roar? 

Jamie: Aye, she's helping to set up a field hospital even as we speak, Your Royal Highness.

BPC: Be so kind to tell her the prince asks that British casualties be tended to before the Jacobite wounded. The British are my father's subjects also, and I will have them well cared for. They must be made to realize the Scots wage war upon them with the greatest of reluctance. They are our enemies now, but one day soon they will be our friends again. 

Jamie: I'm afraid the British have never been a friend to the Scots.

 

The above exchange encapsulates why the Scots inevitably lost at Culloden—and why War is Hell is a universal truth. 

Everyone is fighting the war for their own reasons and the “Leader's (BPC)” reasons are far from those of everyone else. (broad  statements follow)
Jamie is fighting for a way of life. 

Most of the Scottish soldiers are fighting for the concept of duty (Ross & Kincaid the Lallybroch crofters)—and most of the rank-and-file British soldiers are fighting because it's the only paying job they can get that gives them some respect as well.

Dougal is hoping for glory and acclaim (and to rid himself of whatever it is inside him that makes him hate himself). 

 

Moments that stood out for me:

BPC believes that—even if Claire won't follow his orders to treat the British wounded first—she will follow the order if Jamie gives it to her. Jamie doesn't give a reply as he knows it's a lose-lose situation if he does. Smart man.

The subtle way Jamie gets Dougal to volunteer to ride out and test the capability of the bog to support men and horses. And that he is doing it to allow Dougal to shine at what he is good at and receive proper due for it. And later how Jamie saves Dougal from himself again and Dougal finally acknowledges it—although I couldn't tell if it was resentful acknowledgement or actual appreciation.

Watching Claire in action setting up a field hospital. I think it showed that basic care was the best anyone can aim for under any war conditions. They can't do much for the worst injuries, but they can help the rest survive the less-than-deadly injuries. THAT never changes and Claire gets to work with “field medics” who don't know why she's asking them to do what she bids—but they do it. The risk of dying painfully from infection would have been very high in that era, but she mitigated it better than the wounded could have expected with the “modern” medical approach of the time.

Fergus—the stand-in for all eager young soldiers everwhere . I'm glad he got such an important raison d'être for being with them. It conveyed that change from boy to man—that war brings so horribly—exellently.

The uncertainty—right to the last moment—as to whether the young man who came with knowledge of a path around the bog would be a traitor or a friend. 

The bonds formed as men prepared to go into battle and possibly face their death. Who knew it would be Angus that I cried for? Well done, show. Rupert scoffs at Angus when Angus offers his worldly goods to him. “What use would I have for a sword that's never been used?” But he certainly knows by the end of the show. (more tears even though Rupert is not one to wear his emotions on his sleeve)

Murtagh and Jamie's pre-dawn words expressing both the futility of this kind of war and their commitment to it anyway. 

The many ways that Dougal proves that he is not and has never been leadership material. RIP Lieutenant Jeremy Foster—the only example of a decent British Military man we got to see. 

 

The battle scenes were difficult to watch and although I didn't fast forward them, I couldn't give them my full attention. The carnage was realistic enough to remind me that I was not watching to be entertained.

Still, it is episodes like this that make me appreciate this show.  No sugar coating.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Anothermi
misplaced words

[gingerella]

I just finished this episode and I feel like I am experiencing the same shell shock that most of the men were experiencing. I knew it was coming (and it’s not even the really bad one...yet), I’ve been prepared well, and yet I felt as if I was a fly on the wall and it feels more than unsettling. So I guess to feel that affected, I should say, ‘well done Show’, but that seems odd to say too.

On 4/23/2021 at 9:33 PM, Anothermi said:

Everyone is fighting the war for their own reasons and the “Leader's (BPC)” reasons are far from those of everyone else. (broad  statements follow)
Jamie is fighting for a way of life. 

Most of the Scottish soldiers are fighting for the concept of duty (Ross & Kincaid the Lallybroch crofters)—and most of the rank-and-file British soldiers are fighting because it's the only paying job they can get that gives them some respect as well.

Dougal is hoping for glory and acclaim (and to rid himself of whatever it is inside him that makes him hate himself). 

This is such a perfect encapsulation of this war, and I suppose why it ultimately failed for the Scots. They fell into line behind a sycophantic entitled twat who just blathers about his entitlement all whilst men around him are going to die, and die horrible gruesome deaths and he barely gives a thought to it. And his command to Jamie that Claire should treat the British before his own army of Jacobites, that right there should have been enough to send them all home because he’s clearly more interested in hedging his bets than protecting his own men. And therein lies the problem doesn’t it? BPc is like a spoiled little elitist brat who is in his silly sailors suit with wide brimmed hat, sucking on his giant lolly while having a hissy fit over stupid shit. Like Dougal making sure all the British are dead. I mean, Dougal shows his depravity and lack of humanity, and yet on the other hand, what the hell does BPC expect? This is WAR you nincompoop! Standing there in his silly tartan outfit, I wanted to smack him all the way back to France and send those men home to their families at once.

The parts I appreciated most:

The looks of unspoken words between Jamie, Claire and Murtagh are always so emotive, and it’s like the three of them speak the same unspoken language now, whether between Claire and Jamie, or Claire and Murtagh, or Jamie and Murtagh, or all three together, I always love how in sync they are with one another. They all three feel like Outlanders right now, none truly fits in with the Dougals and the Colums and the Grandsires. These three have seen some shit together, and these three are on a different wave length now, together. 

Claire’s maternal caring for Fergus always makes me mushy inside, and he is beyond lucky to have been found by Jamie. Well, I say that now, but I don’t know what will become of him if he survives Culloden. Hopefully he will be sent back to Lallybroch for safe keeping and will be out of harms way. I want to say I loved seeing him sneak away with the men to attack the British but he  looked so wide eyed and terrified in the mist, it was just heartbreaking, knowing what he was about to get into. 

I don’t like gore and violence so big battle scenes are always difficult for me to watch - my GoTs crew know my squeamishness at every season’s penultimate Episode 9 - and I felt similarly tonight, dreading the battle and the aftermath, but knowing it is integral to moving the story forward. I didn’t fast forward much, just through the middle of the battle scene, and the way they shot it was so well done, so I can at least appreciate the cinematography and the whole creeping through the mist and then BAM! 

As much as I loathed BPCs directive to treat British soldiers before the Scots, I did very much appreciate Jamie’s attempt to be friendly with the British wounded with his pissing contest. It once again showed how astute his is with street smarts, knowing when to be tough and knowing when to be a decent human being. It was such a small touch, but it humanized that entire situation and I’d wager those British soldiers would probably stand with the Scots if it came to that. We’ve already seen how the British treated the Scots. 

On 4/23/2021 at 9:33 PM, Anothermi said:

The subtle way Jamie gets Dougal to volunteer to ride out and test the capability of the bog to support men and horses. And that he is doing it to allow Dougal to shine at what he is good at and receive proper due for it. And later how Jamie saves Dougal from himself again and Dougal finally acknowledges it—although I couldn't tell if it was resentful acknowledgement or actual appreciation.

Yes to all of this! It was at once both obvious and yet subtle, as if there is a double sided reason for every move Jamie is making, at least with respect to Dougal. And Dougal’s facial expression is almost like, ‘I ken yer using me...but wait, you’re speaking my love language or valor and being seen as a fierce warrior so I’ll do it, by God, I’ll do it!’ It was sort of masterful on Jamie’s part. @Anothermi, I think at the end when Jamie saves Dougal’s pride, so to speak, by suggesting he take a small party of A-Team men and track the British and send back intel, Dougal first thanks him, but then says very angrily, something like ‘I ken what you’re up to Jamie, you’re as bad as Colum’ or something like that. To me, Dougal is assuming that Jamie is both getting him off the field of glory, as it were, sidelining him in the Great Battle, and at the same time diminishing his standing within Clan MacKenzie, making way for Jamie to succeed Colum - Yes, I got all that from that one little exchange! Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think that’s what Dougal thinks because becoming Laird of Clan MacKenzie is really the only thing Dougal seems to really want from life. That said, Jamie also says to BPC ‘And you’ll never have to see his face again’, which I noticed...I wonder if this is Jamie’s way of sending  Dougal elsewhere to keep him safe so he isn’t at Culloden and he can indeed succeed from Colum... I’m just throwing stuff at the wall to see if it will stick right now... Overall, I was rather shocked at the wanton brutality that Dougal displayed on the battlefield, going round to make sure every soldier was good and dead. I can imagine, perhaps the adrenaline is so high during such a situation, that people do things they might not normally do, but even so, he was way over board, and even the way he killed Foster, the only decent British soldier he'd met, I mean it wasn’t necessary, and it just showed what an animal he can be when totally unchecked. 

Lastly, for now, I didn’t think we’d lose Angus so soon. As much of an imp as he was, he was our imp and he shall be missed. I remember watching S01 and thinking I’d never remember the names of those two buffoons who were t@ked with following Claire all around Castle Leoch, but remember I did and that idiot worked his way into my Viewing heart and he shall be missed indeed. Poor Rupert, they were like an old married couple those two. It was particularly poignant to see the bonding of the guy from Lallybroch and Rupert, that was a scene I’m sure ha sheen played out over time immemorial during battles, and it was so very sad. RIP Angus. You were a crazy wee bastard (who sometimes fornicated with wee beasties) but you were our crazy bastard and we loved ye well.

ETA: @Pallas we are once again yelling at our Tv screens, ‘The horses, the horses, protect the damn horses!’ Perhaps this show treats horses better than GoTs did...

Edited April 25, 2021 by gingerella

[Pallas]

They did protect the horses (if not very realistically, and with the more realistic nod of Jamie's training exercise in how to kill a cavalry mount). The Jacobites had the advantage of surprise, the battle took place within the confines of the British camp, and the British troops were routed quickly: these factors removed the British advantages of mounted divisions and artillery. 

Charles isn't fighting for Scottish independence. He doesn't pretend to be. Charles is fighting to restore Stuart rule over England, Scotland and Ireland: first established in 1603, and ended with the death of the Protestant Queen Anne Stuart in 1714. More specifically he's fighting to restore Catholic Stuart rule: the Hanoverians were Stuart cousins, but German and staunchly Protestant, as required by the Acts of Succession in 1701. And Charles is fighting for the Divine Right of Kings, abolished in the Glorious Revolution of 1688, which sent his grandfather James Stuart II/James VII into exile, along with his infant father. So, Charles isn't fighting to restore and rule with a Scottish parliament, which forty years earlier had voted to merge with the English Parliament. Charles is fighting for an England, Scotland and Ireland under divine, absolute Stuart rule, rather than Hanoverian rule by decree of Parliament. The story did protect the horses, but its protagonists backed the wrong horse. For an independent Scotland, there was no right horse.

16 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Everyone is fighting the war for their own reasons and the “Leader's (BPC)” reasons are far from those of everyone else. (broad  statements follow)
Jamie is fighting for a way of life. 

Most of the Scottish soldiers are fighting for the concept of duty (Ross & Kincaid the Lallybroch crofters)—and most of the rank-and-file British soldiers are fighting because it's the only paying job they can get that gives them some respect as well.

Dougal is hoping for glory and acclaim (and to rid himself of whatever it is inside him that makes him hate himself). 

Wonderful. I'd only add that Dougal is fighting because Dougal fights, like an alcoholic drinks. And (at first) for that very reason you put so well: "to rid himself of whatever it is inside him that makes him hate himself."  

16 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Moments that stood out for me

All of them you mentioned, and everything you said.  

12 hours ago, gingerella said:

It was at once both obvious and yet subtle, as if there is a double sided reason for every move Jamie is making, at least with respect to Dougal. And Dougal’s facial expression is almost like, ‘I ken yer using me...but wait, you’re speaking my love language of valor and being seen as a fierce warrior so I’ll do it, by God, I’ll do it!’ It was sort of masterful on Jamie’s part.

Absolutely! It's a job that required a volunteer: one with ferocity and his own prime motives for completing it. 

12 hours ago, gingerella said:

To me, Dougal is assuming that Jamie is both getting him off the field of glory, as it were, sidelining him in the Great Battle, and at the same time diminishing his standing within Clan MacKenzie, making way for Jamie to succeed Colum

Yes, I think Dougal sees Jamie as saving him in a way that cock-blocks him on two fronts: in his ambition to succeed Colum as Laird MacKenzie, and also, in his ambition to be honored by Charles. Which he desires in itself, not only as another means of advancing his position within Clan MacKenzie. Jamie's plan removes Dougal from Charles and the war command, while in no way keeping him out of the Great Battle. He's been sent ahead, not set aside. 

12 hours ago, gingerella said:

The looks of unspoken words between Jamie, Claire and Murtagh are always so emotive, and it’s like the three of them speak the same unspoken language now, whether between Claire and Jamie, or Claire and Murtagh, or Jamie and Murtagh, or all three together, I always love how in sync they are with one another. The all three feel like Outlanders right now, none truly fits in with the Dougals and the Colums and the Grandsires. These three have seen some shit together, and these three are on a different wave length now, together. 

Beautiful. And that's part of the tragedy, as told: that at this time and place, there was no cause for these three to champion. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Pallas

[SassAndSnacks]

First, let me say that I eagerly await your posts on each episode, and when I see that the three of you have moved on to a new one and post about it, I always give an excited squeal.  For this episode, it was really more of an excited WHOOP!! because this is my favorite episode of the season. (I don't think that is spoilery.)

And also let me say you did not disappoint with the commentary.  <insert chef's kiss>

13 hours ago, Anothermi said:

BPC: Your noble wife will be among those providing medical succor for those poor souls in need of such come the cannon's roar? 

Jamie: Aye, she's helping to set up a field hospital even as we speak, Your Royal Highness.

BPC: Be so kind to tell her the prince asks that British casualties be tended to before the Jacobite wounded. The British are my father's subjects also, and I will have them well cared for. They must be made to realize the Scots wage war upon them with the greatest of reluctance. They are our enemies now, but one day soon they will be our friends again. 

Jamie: I'm afraid the British have never been a friend to the Scots.

This exchange so perfectly shows BPC douchiness.  He doesn't care a fig for the Scots.  They are a means to an end for him.  

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

Charles is fighting for an England, Scotland and Ireland under divine, absolute Stuart rule, rather than Hanoverian rule by decree of Parliament. The story did protect the horses, but its protagonists backed the wrong horse. For an independent Scotland, there was no right horse.

This is a great summary of the politics involved, and it actually makes me sad.  The truth of it is that every war involves a "Scotland" - a group of people, a country, a culture, etc - that is seemingly expendable for the powers involved to get what they want.  

13 hours ago, Anothermi said:

The subtle way Jamie gets Dougal to volunteer to ride out and test the capability of the bog to support men and horses. And that he is doing it to allow Dougal to shine at what he is good at and receive proper due for it. And later how Jamie saves Dougal from himself again and Dougal finally acknowledges it—although I couldn't tell if it was resentful acknowledgement or actual appreciation.

Definitely resentful.  I think he knows he just got played by his inadvertent rival.  

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

Yes, I think Dougal sees Jamie as saving him in a way that cock-blocks him on two fronts: in his ambition to succeed Colum as Laird Mackenzie, and also, in his ambition to be honored by Charles.

Oh my goodness!  This is so perfectly stated.  Jamie is everything that Dougal can never be.  Dougal has always suspected this deep-down, but Jamie was diminished before, an outlaw, younger, the nephew.  Jamie "knew his place" before and stayed in his lane.  Not anymore.  He's much more formidable now, and Dougal is now face to face with that. 

13 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Watching Claire in action setting up a field hospital. I think it showed that basic care was the best anyone can aim for under any war conditions. They can't do much for the worst injuries, but they can help the rest survive the less-than-deadly injuries. THAT never changes and Claire gets to work with “field medics” who don't know why she's asking them to do what she bids—but they do it.

She's in her element.  She's lived this life for so long and in so many similar instances.  No one questions her.  They can see the knowledge, confidence, and leadership.  They respect her.  

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

The parts I appreciated most:

Everything that was stated previously, and I'd also like to humbly submit Jamie's parting bow to Claire and her small nod in return.  The way they held each other's gaze... I've watched that scene more times than I'm prepared to admit, and I feel my heart flip over in my chest every single time.  Every. Single. Time.

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

big battle scenes are always difficult for me to watch - my GoTs crew know my squeamishness at every season’s penultimate Episode 9 - and I felt similarly tonight, dreading the battle and the aftermath, but knowing it is integral to moving the story forward. I didn’t fast forward much, just through the middle of the battle scene, and the way they shot it was so well done, so I can at least appreciate the cinematography and the whole creeping through the mist and then BAM!

In another season of my life, I studied military history.  This show does battles so beautifully.  We saw it last season with the various skirmishes, and that skill was front and center here.  Again, they have a way of showing the horror of it all in such a real, tangible way but also with a great deal of care and respect. (Incidentally, I think the Battle of the Bastards episode of GoT was one of the greatest battle depictions I've ever seen.)

13 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Still, it is episodes like this that make me appreciate this show.  No sugar coating.

A bad hour of Outlander is still better than most other things, but episodes like this one really highlight the brilliance.  

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

6 hours ago, Pallas said:

Charles is fighting for an England, Scotland and Ireland under divine, absolute Stuart rule, rather than Hanoverian rule by decree of Parliament. The story did protect the horses, but its protagonists backed the wrong horse. For an independent Scotland, there was no right horse.

This is a great summary of the politics involved, and it actually makes me sad.  The truth of it is that every war involves a "Scotland" - a group of people, a country, a culture, etc - that is seemingly expendable for the powers involved to get what they want.  

It IS sad, but what is sadder is that this fight for a free Scotland still rages on today! I wonder what our fey BPC would say about that! Just this morning I was reading news about the Scottish SNP in crisis and in-fighting about how what a 'Free Scotland' would even look like make this aspect of A Show even sadder to me, because it's still going on albeit without all the gore and physical fighting. It's also made me realize that so much of Scotland's 'peerage' is just a bunch of privileged English who were awarded castles and titles, and so on. I suppose I always assumed they were passed down within Scottish families but many I think were not, another bastardization of Scotland's heritage that I didn't realize until I started watching this show.  I suppose those who died on the moors of Culloden would be heartened to know that some of their fellow Scots are still taking up their fight all these years later... And you are so right, every war involves a "Scotland", and the very people who are expected to go into battle, are the one's who don't so much know that, but the one's calling the shots, they usually know it and are often fighting for such a different agenda. It's so sad. I wonder how many wars could have been prevented if those on the battlefield really knew and understood the real reasons their higher ups were waging war in the first place.

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

The parts I appreciated most:

Everything that was stated previously, and I'd also like to humbly submit Jamie's parting bow to Claire and her small nod in return.  The way they held each other's gaze... I've watched that scene more times than I'm prepared to admit, and I feel my heart flip over in my chest every single time.  Every. Single. Time.

Yes, I meant to mention this last night! That scene...it circles right back to The Wedding, when Claire is so nervous and panicked that she looks at Jamie in his wedding finery and she looks like she's about to faint with fear, so he smiles and does this gallant bow to her, a sort of ice breaker that he is a gentleman above all else - which is funny because we don't think of him necessarily as such since he's always rough and rugged in his 'on the road kilt garb' - but it calms Claire a wee bit on that wedding day. And he is doing the exact same thing this time too, she has absolute fear and panic in her eyes, she is terrified he will not come back to her, and he knows this, so he does that bow and she does her 'off with you Soldier' and there we are again, seeing that they are almost one being with two bodies. So cliche on the one hand, yet doesn't feel cliche at all in how this is presented to us. Poor Frank never had a real chance against this type of love.

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

6 hours ago, Pallas said:

Yes, I think Dougal sees Jamie as saving him in a way that cock-blocks him on two fronts: in his ambition to succeed Colum as Laird Mackenzie, and also, in his ambition to be honored by Charles.

Oh my goodness!  This is so perfectly stated.  Jamie is everything that Dougal can never be.  Dougal has always suspected this deep-down, but Jamie was diminished before, an outlaw, younger, the nephew.  Jamie "knew his place" before and stayed in his lane.  Not anymore.  He's much more formidable now, and Dougal is now face to face with that. 

This is so true and I knew this but hadn't really thought about it quite so succinctly, thank you! Everything Dougal has, he seems to have obtained by taking it, through fear tactics (collecting money from poor farmers), from a position of power tactics (making Jamie do his bidding because he should be lucky to have the protection that Clan MacKenzie has magnanimously bestowed on him), through constant reminders of put downs (always reminding Jamie that he is less than, and should be grateful for whatever scraps the MacKenzie's toss his direction), and who knows what else. I can only assume he takes whatever hoors he wants as well though we were spared those scenes, you can guess what he's like in the bedroom (I doubt his conquests are bathing in any afterglow when he's finished!). He dominates to get what he wants through fear posturing. He even essentially forces Jamie to marry Claire to save her from BJR, though we already know Jamie's in love with Claire by that time and is quite happy to do the job and deed! That said, as Jamie has grown up into a man after marrying Claire, Dougal sees that it's as if things are just handed to Jamie on a silver platter. Jamies doesn't have to use fear and aggression to get respect from other men, from women, from BPC himself. He just has to be James Alexander Malcomb MacKenzie Fraser and people gravitate to him naturally, because he understands how the human mind works, he knows how to get what he wants while making the other person feel as though they are also getting what they want, and he is unafraid to show his humanity to others. He is a natural born leader, while Dougal has to use scare tactics to keep what he deems 'his'. It's like Dougal is a junk yard or stray dog who is always in fight mode, and Jamie is just this big lovable golden retriever that everyone wants to love, but he's also got made skills which make him even better.  I feel sorry for Dougal, because he could make a different life for himself but he cannae ken how to do that. I don't see redemption in his arc, alas.

17 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Watching Claire in action setting up a field hospital. I think it showed that basic care was the best anyone can aim for under any war conditions. They can't do much for the worst injuries, but they can help the rest survive the less-than-deadly injuries. THAT never changes and Claire gets to work with “field medics” who don't know why she's asking them to do what she bids—but they do it. The risk of dying painfully from infection would have been very high in that era, but she mitigated it better than the wounded could have expected with the “modern” medical approach of the time.

This too, was such great character development for Claire, to see how she figures out how to make do with what she has, based on her own war knowledge. The fear in the eyes and on the faces of her 'team' was palpable, and yet we see how she leads them to get rest, to prep up, to give them encouragement, and yet she also admits to them that they are all afraid and it's normal to feel as such, but they must all work together in the coming dawn to rise above the fear so they can help as many men as need be. That right there, to me, is what binds Jamie and Claire, that is the 'thing' they both share apart from their attraction to one another. Not only do they both always want to do the right thing, the just thing, the moral thing, they also are both able to rise up and overcome their human fear and do what needs doing in those moments where such things matter the most, where freezing up will only lead to more tragedy. I couldn't help but wish that Jamie could have seen how Claire prepared her hospital team, he would be beaming with pride at seeing her in her element. I know he saw her afterwards, but the calm before the storm was really a strong and poignant scene for me.

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

First, let me say that I eagerly await your posts on each episode, and when I see that the three of you have moved on to a new one and post about it, I always give an excited squeal.  For this episode, it was really more of an excited WHOOP!! because this is my favorite episode of the season. (I don't think that is spoilery.)

And also let me say you did not disappoint with the commentary.  <insert chef's kiss>

May I say again that I/we feel the same way about you guys. It is adding so much more depth to hear the thoughts of old timers on what we're experiencing for the first time now. So thank you to you, @Beeyago, @Cdh20, and @Camera One for adding depth to our discussions!

Okay, I'll shut up now!

Edited April 24, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

18 hours ago, Anothermi said:

And later how Jamie saves Dougal from himself again and Dougal finally acknowledges it—although I couldn't tell if it was resentful acknowledgement or actual appreciation.

15 hours ago, gingerella said:

Dougal first thanks him, but then says very angrily, something like ‘I ken what you’re up to Jamie, you’re as bad as Colum’ or something like that. To me, Dougal is assuming that Jamie is both getting him off the field of glory, as it were, sidelining him in the Great Battle, and at the same time diminishing his standing within Clan MacKenzie, making way for Jamie to succeed Colum

 

8 hours ago, Pallas said:

Yes, I think Dougal sees Jamie as saving him in a way that cock-blocks him on two fronts: in his ambition to succeed Colum as Laird MacKenzie, and also, in his ambition to be honored by Charles. Which he desires in itself, not only as another means of advancing his position within Clan MacKenzie. Jamie's plan removes Dougal from Charles and the war command, while in no way keeping him out of the Great Battle. He's been sent ahead, not set aside. 

 

4 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Definitely resentful.  I think he knows he just got played by his inadvertent rival.  

 

@gingerella  @Pallas @SassAndSnacks 

Thanks for all this food for thought on Dougal's reaction. I realize now that it was too big an ask for Dougal to be generous in his assessment of what Jamie did for him. It's not in him.

He didn't even realize that Jamie had engineered that whole bog-scouting event so that Dougal could get the acclaim he craved from BPC. Dougal was never going to understand that Jamie was saving him from himself. Dougal wanted to be the next Laird of the Mckenzie Clan so Jamie must want it too—if only because he could get it. But Jamie never wanted it. AND he honestly appreciated everything that Dougal and Colum did to protect him when he had a price on his head so he felt honour bound to protect them in return if he could.

I did hear the resentment in Dougal's reply, but I guess I had pie in the sky hopes for him. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

 

11 hours ago, Anothermi said:

He didn't even realize that Jamie had engineered that whole bog-scouting event so that Dougal could get the acclaim he craved from BPC. Dougal was never going to understand that Jamie was saving him from himself. Dougal wanted to be the next Laird of the Mckenzie Clan so Jamie must want it too—if only because he could get it.

Yes, I think Dougal is short-sighted in the way of, well, narcissists: he can only see qualities and motives that mirror his own. And he has many fine qualities and a few good motives, so he can appreciate that Jamie maneuvered him into the bog, for the good of the cause -- but not that he also did so for Dougal's sake.

This episode gives us Dougal in all his perversity, complexity and even, sometimes, simplicity. And I loved the way Graham McTavish showed us that Lt. Foster saved his own life by acknowledging Dougal by name, then got himself gutted because Dougal got pissed off. 

[Cdh20]

6 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

First, let me say that I eagerly await your posts on each episode, and when I see that the three of you have moved on to a new one and post about it, I always give an excited squeal.  For this episode, it was really more of an excited WHOOP!! because this is my favorite episode of the season. (I don't think that is spoilery.)

And also let me say you did not disappoint with the commentary.  <insert chef's kiss>

This exchange so perfectly shows BPC douchiness.  He doesn't care a fig for the Scots.  They are a means to an end for him.  

This is a great summary of the politics involved, and it actually makes me sad.  The truth of it is that every war involves a "Scotland" - a group of people, a country, a culture, etc - that is seemingly expendable for the powers involved to get what they want.  

Definitely resentful.  I think he knows he just got played by his inadvertent rival.  

Oh my goodness!  This is so perfectly stated.  Jamie is everything that Dougal can never be.  Dougal has always suspected this deep-down, but Jamie was diminished before, an outlaw, younger, the nephew.  Jamie "knew his place" before and stayed in his lane.  Not anymore.  He's much more formidable now, and Dougal is now face to face with that. 

She's in her element.  She's lived this life for so long and in so many similar instances.  No one questions her.  They can see the knowledge, confidence, and leadership.  They respect her.  

Everything that was stated previously, and I'd also like to humbly submit Jamie's parting bow to Claire and her small nod in return.  The way they held each other's gaze... I've watched that scene more times than I'm prepared to admit, and I feel my heart flip over in my chest every single time.  Every. Single. Time.

In another season of my life, I studied military history.  This show does battles so beautifully.  We saw it last season with the various skirmishes, and that skill was front and center here.  Again, they have a way of showing the horror of it all in such a real, tangible way but also with a great deal of care and respect. (Incidentally, I think the Battle of the Bastards episode of GoT was one of the greatest battle depictions I've ever seen.)

A bad hour of Outlander is still better than most other things, but episodes like this one really highlight the brilliance.  

This is your fave season 2 epi? Not 213?( Not spoilery I hope)

I love Jamie as army leader, & Claire as head nurse- this is how I see these 2 at their best jobs( working together). I don’t want to see them at war but damn they are good.

Jamie’s goodbye kiss & bow to Claire is my favourite moment of this epi. All the feels. 
 

I hate that I have not seen GOT since apparently you all have.  My son has it on DVD so we must get to it one day.( It seems I am usually years behind in watching all these acclaimed shows). 

[Anothermi]

15 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

I hate that I have not seen GOT since apparently you all have.  My son has it on DVD so we must get to it one day.( It seems I am usually years behind in watching all these acclaimed shows). 

I have decided to remove my reply because it is not on topic for the Outlander forum. I've messaged the reply instead. 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

On 4/24/2021 at 8:38 PM, Anothermi said:

On 4/24/2021 at 6:24 PM, Cdh20 said:

I hate that I have not seen GOT since apparently you all have.  My son has it on DVD so we must get to it one day.( It seems I am usually years behind in watching all these acclaimed shows). 

I have decided to remove my reply because it is not on topic for the Outlander forum. I've messaged the reply instead. 

FWIW, I thought your description of our Watch at the Spitball Wall was quite on point!  It was difficult, and I fear that if we get caught up to the end of S05 before S06 premieres, we will have to start dodging a lot of spoilers again...there is something nice and calm about watching a show that has huge followings after the fact. So yes, go and watch GoT at some point, but know it is a very different beast to this show. 

Now, back to our regularly scheduled reviews...I am enjoying having a couple/few days between episodes because all your comments help me delve deeper into each episode and glean things that either I missed completely, or that I saw but dinnae registered fully, ye ken? So after re-reading our comments of this episode, I want to talk more about Dougal MacKenzie, macho man extraordinaire. I feel like we gave him a well-deserved shatting upon upthread, which he has earned, but I also feel for the guy. He's living in this time when a 'real man' - a man whom other men look up to and admire, and take orders from - basically has to be a barbarian of sorts. He has to show everyone that he's the one guy you don't want to tangle with. We saw this back at the Garrison I think, when he bursts in and rescues Claire from BJR and he's allowed to remove her from the premises. We know BJR is also an animal and a garbage person, but even he doesn't want to tangle with Dougal because he can sense he's dealing with someone who's about to go off. Also, @Anothermi made a great observation upthread when she said:

On 4/23/2021 at 9:33 PM, Anothermi said:

Dougal is hoping for glory and acclaim (and to rid himself of whatever it is inside him that makes him hate himself). 

He wants the glory and acclaim likely because his brother, who is his eyes is damaged goods, has gotten all the glory and acclaim - the accolades for being a good laird to the clan, all the while Dougal is the man behind the curtain, unseen but helping to prop up his brother who has serious physical limitations. He also likely feels superior because back then someone with a deformity like Colum would be left to die or not nurtured in any way, so it must stick in Dougal's craw that his damaged brother gets all the attention. Colum was smart to make Dougal war chief of the clan to keep him focused on what he's good at, fighting and instilling fear in others. He sees his brother's strengths but probably doesn't tell Dougal he appreciates them because men don't share FEELINGS with other men. Just look at the horror on Dougal's face when twee little BPC embraces him tightly after he tests the bog. Dougal is shocked, embarrassed, and somewhat horrified that this man, his Prince, is showing affection and feelings to him and Dougal's expression is 'WTF are you doing man?!?' He is desperate for acknowledgement from BPC, but this is a step too far for him. Feelings are not to be expressed in his world.

In S01, we see Dougal soften and show appreciation to Claire in how she treats Geordie as he's dying, and we think maybe he's not such a bad guy after all. Then we see him betroth Jamie and Claire and we think, maybe he's got a heart after all because anyone can see these two should be together, but nope, he makes a play for Claire on her wedding night, he has no boundaries because he thinks he's above all men. When he offers to marry Claire and protect her, it felt partly like he knew she'd be exposed and would risk being harmed if not under someone's strong protection, but then he launches into his own spiel and again it feels like he just wants Jamie's toy. When Claire doesn't turn on Dougal and the clan in the Garrison, we think perhaps again, Dougal will ease up on her, but nope, he talks of wanting to plough her fields and we're back at crass Dougal again.

So what makes Dougal the way he is? I think it's simple. I think he is torn up because he has no children or heir of his own. He's gone so far as to create a son for Colum because it had to be done, but he cannot claim that child as his own and he knows this. He is so happy when he tells Colum about Geillis being pregnant with his child (it's the only time I can remember seeing him actually happy), because finally he can have an heir that can carry on his name and his legacy, because that is the most important thing that a man can do in his lifetime in this time. He's been stripped of his honor so to speak - by making a child for Colum, we don't know if he has any children with his now dead wife but the show has led us to believe he has none - so the one thing a man like Dougal would prize over all other prizes, is an heir, and even that has been taken from him. I mean, Colum all but admitted he was behind the witch trial and Claire was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I cannae help but wonder what sort of person Dougal would be if Geillis had lived and had their child, and it had been a boy, an heir to Dougal's legacy as the Great War Chief of Clan MacKenzie. If having his own heir or even a daughter would have softened him at all. I don't know if we know these things in the books, but I cant help but want the Show to give us something more of Dougal so he's not just this barbaric person that we saw in this episode. I want Dougal to be more, to embrace those moments where we see a softer and more caring side of him, to earn some sort of redemption, but I dinna think it will happen in a Show, alas. Instead, his nephew Jamie has sort of taken the place of a son and yet not. A nephew whom he both loves and hates simultaneously, because Jamie is everything, has everything, that Dougal cannot and will not ever have. It's damn sad for a character with so much charisma going for him...

Edited April 26, 2021 by gingerella

[SassAndSnacks]

On 4/24/2021 at 5:22 PM, gingerella said:

I didn't realize until I started watching this show.

Neither did I.  No idea., so it is interesting to me to watch the politics of this playing out now, especially on the heels of Brexit.  

On 4/24/2021 at 5:22 PM, gingerella said:

I wonder how many wars could have been prevented if those on the battlefield really knew and understood the real reasons their higher ups were waging war in the first place.

I'm reading a book about WWI now (fascinating!), and your statement above made me think of a line from German General von Hindenburg - "Humanity is governed by certain truths, and with all my soul, I believe one of those truths to be that war is the natural state of mankind.  We will conquer or we will die." (The underlining is my emphasis.)  

It's a much larger conversation that includes more than just the plot of this show, but do people even know how to live peacefully?  Could Jamie ever live peacefully and without conflict?

On 4/24/2021 at 5:22 PM, gingerella said:

That scene...it circles right back to The Wedding, when Claire is so nervous and panicked that she looks at Jamie in his wedding finery and she looks like she's about to faint with fear, so he smiles and does this gallant bow...

Great catch!  These two...ugh...

On 4/24/2021 at 9:24 PM, Cdh20 said:

This is your fave season 2 epi? Not 213?

100% YES. And I willna say more! (Until we get to that episode.)

15 hours ago, gingerella said:

I think he is torn up because he has no children or heir of his own.

Do we know this for sure?

On 4/24/2021 at 9:00 PM, Pallas said:

Yes, I think Dougal is short-sighted in the way of, well, narcissists: he can only see qualities and motives that mirror his own. And he has many fine qualities and a few good motives, so he can appreciate that Jamie maneuvered him into the bog, for the good of the cause -- but not that he also did so for Dougal's sake.

This is really interesting, and I completely agree.  He's a bit like bad manager who only hires staff that are just like him, and then the whole team ends up not functioning properly. 

Colum has a wider vision, can recognize useful qualities in people that he can utilize for the good of the full Clan.  He's had to come about this skill for a variety of reasons - he was the oldest male and therefore groomed to be laird from his earliest days, he did not have the physical abilities of the other kids so he had to compensate for that with mental abilities, out-thinking and manipulating people to get what he wanted and needed.  Dougal always had the physical, and by being a brute, he was able to get what he wanted and needed.  He never had to hone any other means to achieve anything. 

Except, even with all of that physical prowess, Colum still out-foxed him at every turn, got Dougal to do his bidding in multiple ways, and was even named Laird despite his disabilities.  The shock of that!  Salt in the wound!  And now, now his protege, his nephew, has done the same thing to him!  He was the one showing Jamie how to be physical for all of these years, teaching that physicality was the means to accomplish, to rule, to intimidate, to lead. And now Jamie has turned it and made this a mental game as well.  He went completely Colum on Dougal.  That has to be astonishing and yet incredibly eye-opening.  Jamie has both physical and mental prowess.  It had to have a been an "Oh Shit" moment for Dougal.  

[Pallas]

A lovely consideration of Dougal, gingerella. I think that he not only suffers from having no heirs of his name, but also, from seeing no legacy of men in his own mold, left to carry on at the head of the clan when he is gone. He feels thwarted. By his own lights -- by his own values -- he has every quality that makes a leader. Yet this wasn't enough to secure him the leadership over his disabled brother, and he fears it will never be enough to win out over any other contender. For reasons he can't understand, because they aren't his own.

How maddening is that? Dougal doesn't value the qualities that make Colum (or Jamie) a better head of the clan; he can barely perceive them. To him, it's a cosmic injustice, and he hates himself, his brother, his nephew and God that this should be so. 

21 hours ago, gingerella said:

It's damn sad for a character with so much charisma going for him...

It is. But a charismatic hater can't help but undo the good that he does. 

[gingerella]

7 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

23 hours ago, gingerella said:

I think he is torn up because he has no children or heir of his own.

Do we know this for sure?

We don't know this for sure. I mean technically Colum's son/heir is Dougal's son but he cannot claim him as such, so other than that we've not been shown on the Show that he has any child that he can claim as his own. And judging by what appeared to be his genuine happiness that Geillis was carrying his child, it would seem as though he has no other children of his own.

This:

7 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

He was the one showing Jamie how to be physical for all of these years, teaching that physicality was the means to accomplish, to rule, to intimidate, to lead. And now Jamie has turned it and made this a mental game as well.  He went completely Colum on Dougal.  That has to be astonishing and yet incredibly eye-opening.  Jamie has both physical and mental prowess.  It had to have a been an "Oh Shit" moment for Dougal.  

and

6 hours ago, Pallas said:

A lovely consideration of Dougal, gingerella. I think that he not only suffers from having no heirs of his name, but also, from seeing no legacy of men in his own mold, left to carry on at the head of the clan when he is gone. He feels thwarted. By his own lights -- by his own values -- he has every quality that makes a leader. Yet this wasn't enough to secure him the leadership over his disabled brother, and he fears it will never be enough to win out over any other contender. For reasons he can't understand, because they aren't his own.

How maddening is that? Dougal doesn't value the qualities that make Colum (or Jamie) a better head of the clan; he can barely perceive them. To him, it's a cosmic injustice, and he hates himself, his brother, his nephew and God that this should be so. 

These two comments are a big YES! Dougal has been showing Jamie, and others, 'how to be a real Highlander man' for decades now, and Dougal's men have learned well from him, but what they've learned is warfare from the 'old days'. Jamie, being an open-minded and modern thinker, has taken all the useful bits learned from the 'old ways' from both Dougal (physical fighting and short term gains) and Colum (diplomacy and thinking out longer term gains), and he's also seen firsthand how wars are waged now, both from the British and French sides, and he knows that Dougal's old fashioned 'tried and true Highlander warfare' is not going to be enough to win the day at Culloden. You see it in the first half of this episode, where both Murtagh and Jamie are trying to whip these simple farmers into well-disciplined and ably-trained soldiers, and Dougal and his little band come running into the group, faces painted with good Scottish mud and dirt, bare-chested and yelling like crazy banshees whilst brandishing their swords. He honestly believes that being the image of a fierce and scary Scottish Highlander will be enough to rout the British and send them packing. And when Jamie says no, this war is different because he's seen how the other side fights now, you see the dejection in Dougal's face, in his posture. Jamie may be saying, 'No Dougal, we need to do more because this fight needs to be different, because the enemy fights differently now", but Dougal is hearing, "Uncle, you are no longer a fierce warrior and your skills and knowledge are no longer needed or wanted." And really, that's not quite was Jamie's inferring, there is plenty that Dougal can teach these recruits, if only his ego could get out of its own way.

ETA: IIRC, it was also apparent to me in this episode that Jamie and Claire still hold out a glimmer of hope that they can change the outcome of Culloden. Didn't at least one of them say as much yet again? I wonder at what point do they realize that things are not going to change after all...

Edited April 26, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

49 minutes ago, gingerella said:

I wonder at what point do they realize that things are not going to change after all...

I was going to say after they lose Culloden—but then I remember that Claire returned to 1948 BEFORE that battle was lost. It was the only question she had for that poor man who found her on the road when she returned. 

So I wonder if we are going to see what happened to the Scottish Clans—and Jamie and Murtagh—at Culloden. I'm hoping so—given that the show runners started this Season on that cliff hanger. We learned that history didn't change (duh) but we don't know what happened from Jamie's POV.

[Cdh20]

On 4/24/2021 at 3:22 PM, gingerella said:

 

 

This too, was such great character development for Claire, to see how she figures out how to make do with what she has, based on her own war knowledge. The fear in the eyes and on the faces of her 'team' was palpable, and yet we see how she leads them to get rest, to prep up, to give them encouragement, and yet she also admits to them that they are all afraid and it's normal to feel as such, but they must all work together in the coming dawn to rise above the fear so they can help as many men as need be. That right there, to me, is what binds Jamie and Claire, that is the 'thing' they both share apart from their attraction to one another. Not only do they both always want to do the right thing, the just thing, the moral thing, they also are both able to rise up and overcome their human fear and do what needs doing in those moments where such things matter the most, where freezing up will only lead to more tragedy. I couldn't help but wish that Jamie could have seen how Claire prepared her hospital team, he would be beaming with pride at seeing her in her element. I know he saw her afterwards, but the calm before the storm was really a strong and poignant scene for me.

May I say again that I/we feel the same way about you guys. It is adding so much more depth to hear the thoughts of old timers on what we're experiencing for the first time now. So thank you to you, @Beeyago, @Cdh20, and @Camera One for adding depth to our discussions!

Okay, I'll shut up now!

 “ This is my wife, she is a healer! “ Jamie is always so proud of Claire. What makes them a great couple is they bring out the best in each other! 

[mythoughtis]

Dougal’s actions ( killing the British  wounded or rekilling the dead ones) after the battle were especially impactful to me because of a series of novels  I’ve been reading.  Those novels specifically describe  the same actions as being done by the British at Culloden.  The Ghosts  of Culloden Moor series - a light hearted romance/time travel/witches  series other than descriptions of the battle itself. 
 

It is interesting that the boggy ground plays a part in this battle when it is a major reason Culloden was lost.  

Edited August 17, 2022 by mythoughtis