S02.E09: Je Suis Prest

[Athena]

Quote

Claire and Jamie reunite with the Lallybroch and MacKenzie men as they take part in training. Jamie and Claire have personal battles to deal with.

Note: This is the No Book Talk episode thread. Any discussion of book talk any time is not allowed including "It's different in the books."

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Dougal's not going to put up with Claire telling him to fuck himself and Jamie putting him on guard duty much longer, right? Given what we've seen of him, I don't see him letting go of either of those things. I'm just waiting for him to betray them.

Yay, Angus is back! Loved that he rinsed his mouth with whiskey in anticipation of getting a kiss from Claire.

Poor Claire has some serious PTSD.

[GenieinTX]

I liked this episode a lot.  It's hard to remember the war hasn't been that long ago for Claire.  Seeing her husband go to another one must be very hard, especially when she knows deep in her heart that the Scots lose. 

[Primetimer]

While ramping up for war, the Frasers continue to catch up with old friends.

View the full article

[HumblePi]

I sort of miss seeing Frank back in England and what he's been going through. This series is so focused on Claire and Jamie and completely diminishes her life with Frank before her trip through time into 1760's Scotland.

[AndySmith]

I might have to start watching for this Dougal guy...

[Daisy]

12 hours ago, HumblePi said:

I sort of miss seeing Frank back in England and what he's been going through. This series is so focused on Claire and Jamie and completely diminishes her life with Frank before her trip through time into 1760's Scotland.

I know.. like.. can we show some scenes with Frank, and Pregnant Claire with Baby #2, or something? that was a serious decision and we spent 1 episode and 1 scene there. 

 

as for the episode - this was really done well, and it is showing why (basically) Scotland fell. These are farmers. The Guerrilla warfare that Dougal and company want to do will not work with the redcoats, and Dougal can't see it he's so focused on being part of BPC's table, and no one else has experienced it other than Jamie (and Claire who knows how it will all end). they might Je Suis Pres all they want, but that's going to get them no where. 

 

Poor Claire and her PTSD. that was heartbreaking. (Catriona is seriously gunning for an Emmy this year, I swear). and I'm glad that A: Jamie left her alone for a while, B: saw something was wrong and stopped leaving her alone for a while, and C: that promise that she'd never be alone. awwww. 

I really have to wonder if Jamie would have gone with the torture. (I really hope not), but the Claire/Jamie scene was hilarious including Claire kneeing him, his grunting Sassaneach, then her glare when he copped a feel and popped a kiss lol. That was quick thinking by Claire though 

This show is Scotland. i am loving the backhalf more than the Paris half. 

[ganesh]

18 hours ago, GenieinTX said:

I liked this episode a lot.  It's hard to remember the war hasn't been that long ago for Claire.  Seeing her husband go to another one must be very hard, especially when she knows deep in her heart that the Scots lose. 

Yeah, that "we tried so hard for 2 years to stop this?" Really Claire? When was that because I didn't see that much of the trying hard. 

I really liked the scene when they fooled the english boy with Claire being all 'helpless' and then kicking Jamie. 

Given that they are doomed, I did like the plan to just steel the pins and the wheels. That was actually smart. 

I really didn't think about Claire having pstd. I'm surprised she was in the field with the men, but I certainly can believe it. 

I'm wondering if *something* doesn't get changed. I know the Scots aren't going to win, but maybe different people die or they don't lose as bad. 

[Glade]

I was disappointed that Jaime hasn't progressed beyond lashings as a means of control--that he couldn't rise above that legacy and suggest alternatives.  Maybe Claire would have some ideas, as well, from her experiences in the 1940's.  I thought most of this episode could have been compressed or sped along more quickly.

I was also waiting with baited breath the entire episode wondering if Gellis would show up!  Is she alive?   The past two episodes have made great pains to not mention her name to Legohaire or Mcdougal who could be holding such information. 

[terrymct]

Some things confused me this week.

Dougal has been fundraising for the Stuart cause, buying materials, and storing them in caves.   Why wouldn't he know any other men who would want to voluntarily join up to fight?   Why wasn't there any mention of the supplies he has stashed for just this occasion?   All that said, it's good to see Dougal and the boys.   They're one of the best part of the series.  Dougal didn't seem himself, he was certainly more restrained.   It was also odd that he stood there and let Claire speech-a-fy her pop psychology at him, politely waiting his turn to speak.   I think, though, that's a characteristic of this show having characters deliver speeches and everyone else stands and waits for them to finish.

Jamie isn't bright, but he was dumber than usual this week.  Jamie knows Dougal was the MacKenzie's war chief.  He's led men and in many, many fights.  I don't get why Jamie didn't put Dougal in a position of being an ally in the training of the men.    Jamie mentioned that he'd had a look at the English army's way of fighting that now includes artillery.  When did he see this?   Over in France?   I can't remember his being in actual battle, just the highlands fighting and punches thrown in the parlor.   Was this a lie to cover that he got the information from Claire?

Claire now has ptsd?   It's understandable, given that she was a nurse in a world war, but why is this the first we've seen of it.   Certainly there has been a fair amount of violence around her, even involving people she cares about or loves.    I don't understand why she was at the camp at all, even after her speech.  She has to be there because people she cares about could be in peril?   And do what?  Bandage the wounds afterward?  How does that make anything actually different.  Jamie should be concerned for HER safety and insist that she stay back at the castle.  She's the plucky romance novel heroine who's in the middle of everything and able to rise to all or most occasions (except when she or someone she loves is assaulted).

Edited June 5, 2016 by terrymct

[LoveLeigh]

2 hours ago, Glade said:

I was disappointed that Jaime hasn't progressed beyond lashings as a means of control--that he couldn't rise above that legacy and suggest alternatives. 

And it is basically for that reason that I hated this episode. "Six lashes each" made me sick. I have not read the books so I have no idea if all these lashings were written into the novels by the author.... but for me it is hard to watch. 

And the constant showing of his back makes me ill. I had DVR'd this episode so I fast forwarded through a scene that might have shown him getting another lashing.

And I did not like the faux threats to "the English lady" as  way to get information from that English kid. The whole thing had a real false note to it because I did not believe Jamie would have gone along with it so quickly. 

The whole episode was not enjoyable for me on any level... except maybe for the few flashbacks.  

Edited June 5, 2016 by DakotaLavender

[Andorra]

Quote

Jamie isn't bright, but he was dumber than usual this week.  Jamie knows Dougal was the MacKenzie's war chief.  He's led men and in many, many fights.  I don't get why Jamie didn't put Dougal in a position of being an ally in the training of the men.    Jamie mentioned that he'd had a look at the English army's way of fighting that now includes artillery.  When did he see this?   Over in France?   I can't remember his being in actual battle, just the highlands fighting and punches thrown in the parlor.   Was this a lie to cover that he got the information from Claire?

Jamie is far from "not being bright". He's educated and smart. Much smarter than Dougal acutally who, as we have seen in previous episodes, is not the brain of the Mackenzie clan. The brain is Column, Dougal is just the arm.

Also, we learn in season 1, that Jamie has fought in the English/French war, so he indeed knows how the English army operates. Dougal is the one fighting only in Clan-fights.

And finally: History showed that Dougal's expectation the Scottish would be able to win against the English by simply overruning them and being brave, was wrong. It was just that strategy what made them lose the fight at Culloden. Bravery was no wapon against canons and a well disciplined army.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Andorra

[terrymct]

Replying to Andorra, for some reason the quote option isn't working at the moment. Thanks for the reminder about Jamie in the French/English War. It was something mentioned rather than shown? Did he fight on the side of the French or the English? French, I'd assume, given the religion aspect. It's odd that didn't really come up when they were recently in France. The wiki has him studying in France, but not being associated with any war there. The writers tell us Jamie is educated and intelligent, but he doesn't show it other than being multi-lingual (English, Gaelic, French, maybe Latin?). He may be been to school, but his behavior and decisions aren't smart. There's a difference. Dougal does need education about the style of fighting that they'll encounter. That was essentially the whole problem at real life Culloden. Jamie was stupid about the way he handled Dougal who was oddly cooperative, probably because this all is going to get him closer to Prince Charles. Instead of pushing Dougal literally to the margins, take him aside as a trusted (at least in this) ally and talk through the plans. Explain the new sort of fighting and put him in charge of training the men to fight in the style. Dougal has the experience leading men and wants more than anything to look good in front of the Stuarts, and eventually for the Stuarts to win. A smart leader would see Dougal as a tool/resource to be used, rather than marginalizing him. And, going back to my original post, what happened to the foundation building Dougal had been doing? Raising money, buying and caching resources. He should know of more people who want to fight for the cause. It's strange that all that didn't come up.

[jcin617]

22 hours ago, ganesh said:

I'm wondering if *something* doesn't get changed. I know the Scots aren't going to win, but maybe different people die or they don't lose as bad. 

I'm really starting to believe all these events are happening because of Claire, not in spite of her.   The history she knows is history because she caused it to happen that way (in trying to stop it).   It's a classic predestination paradox.

Although, she wouldn't know this.  And I'm surprised she isn't thinking about how preventing the uprising is entirely different than what they are attempting now, which is actually winning.   The impact on history would be dramatic if the Stuarts reclaimed the throne.    

[ganesh]

9 hours ago, Andorra said:

Jamie is far from "not being bright". He's educated and smart. Much smarter than Dougal acutally who, as we have seen in previous episodes, is not the brain of the Mackenzie clan. The brain is Column, Dougal is just the arm.

Anytime you can win a battle without actually fighting, you're doing all right. The plan to steal the pins and burn the wheels was smart. I mean, regardless of Claire being there, they have a bunch of farmers who can barely load a gun. If anyone thinks the Scots are going to form lines and load and shoot and then do a charge, they're delusional. 

I'm not a fan of predestination in time travel, but if that's what they're going for, as long as it's consistent I can buy it. I'm more of Claire is changing things by just being there (and also Gellis is her daughter). Many have pointed out that Jamie might have died had Claire not appeared in the first place. That alone could have a huge effect on the battle. I'm not saying they're actually going to win, but everything just playing out exactly the same doesn't really grab me. 

[jcin617]

The problem is, we can never know if Claire is changing events or it's predestination until we have an objective comparison.   Claire can provide that if she sees something different in the 20th century than from before her travels, or we can as the audience.  So far, everything we've been shown in the 20th century is the same as before Claire time-travelled, which tends to imply predestination.   The biggest example so far is Claire going out of her way to prevent Alex Randall from pursuing Mary Hawkins, who only did so then because of what happened to her, which only happened because she knew Claire.    If that's not how it always happened, it's almost impossible that Claire's maneuvering would have been sufficient to ensure events otherwise played out exactly the same as it did the first time around to ensure Frank's ancestor was conceived at the proper moment.

[ganesh]

56 minutes ago, jcin617 said:

So far, everything we've been shown in the 20th century is the same as before Claire time-travelled, which tends to imply predestination.

The only thing confirmed when Claire returned to 1948 was that the Scots lost, but no details. The 'present' is 1954. Claire still has both rings on, so clearly she's not moving on. I am hoping we'll see her trying to find more out in the present. 

I guess Frank counts as confirmed. But it's as likely that Frank always needed to be born, because timey whimey as it is predestination. His exact lineage could have changed. Didn't Frank say he was directly from BJR? I don't think one can say anything definitively until BJR fathers a child or dies before he can, in terms of Frank. 

If they go with predestination, I'm not calling BS. It's just not as interesting to me, and I think the 'observer affecting experiment' is more mathematically sound than 'because that's how it was'. It's not like the closed time loop hasn't been used before, it's the most simple, and this isn't really a time travel story.

Another thing that isn't known is before Claire goes back in the first episode is when Jamie actually died. Someone said there was a Fraser headstone, but no date on it. So if Jamie did die, and Claire's appearance changed that, then she essentially spun off an entirely new timeline in the first episode. In this episode, Jamie used the word "commando" to Claire, talking about the raid to burn the wheels. She's sharing kind of advanced war tactics that he wouldn't have known without her, and her being there got the english boy to give up the intel about the camp. I just find it more interesting if Claire causes at least a slightly different outcome. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by ganesh

[LurkerNan]

I swear, Fergus is so endearing he makes me want more children.

[Scaeva]

On June 6, 2016 at 2:30 PM, ganesh said:

Someone said there was a Fraser headstone, but no date on it. So if Jamie did die, and Claire's appearance changed that, then she essentially spun off an entirely new timeline in the first episode. In this episode, Jamie used the word "commando" to Claire, talking about the raid to burn the wheels. She's sharing kind of advanced war tactics that he wouldn't have known without her, and her being there got the english boy to give up the intel about the camp. I just find it more interesting if Claire causes at least a slightly different outcome. 

From what I understand the head stones at modern day Culloden memorialize all the slain. There is one headstone for every clan that participated.

The Fraser head stone that Clair sees is a memorial for all the Fraser slain, rather than a tombstone for any one individual. 

[ganesh]

So Jamie could have died in the original timeline (no Claire going through the stones).

I've said before, I know it's not a time travel show, but Claire has mucked about so much that I think there's got to be some kind of changes.

Just in France alone, the Comte's ship might not have been burned if Claire wasn't there to identify the smallpox, and he might not have actually died when he did if he didn't try to get revenge on Claire. 

I hope there's more scenes in the 'present'. It's fair of Frank to ask Claire to move on, but you've got to figure she'd want to know what happened just for closure.

Edited June 8, 2016 by ganesh

[iMonrey]

Quote

And the constant showing of his back makes me ill. I had DVR'd this episode so I fast forwarded through a scene that might have shown him getting another lashing.

Judging by the look of it, it seems unlikely Jamie has any feeling left in his back. The skin looks like it's almost entirely scar tissue. I bet six measly lashes at this point wouldn't even make him flinch. Seriously - he can probably feel very little on his back anymore. I think, as the recap suggests, the purpose of him taking the lashes was to show his men what he's suffered through before.

Who was Willie, the one Rupert and Angus said got married? I don't remember him from Season 1. 

[iMonrey]

Oh yeah - I have a vague recollection of him but can't quite picture him. Thanks Grashka. 

[nara]

Late to this party...

Glad to see Rupert, Angus, and Dougal again.  Now if could get Mrs. Fitz back, I would really be happy, but that seems unlikely.  :(  Does this mean that there is a permanent break between Colum and Dougal and he's no longer war chief of Clan MacKenzie?  What does that mean for the safety of Clan MacKenzie with regard to other clans?  Or perhpas that's moot at this point.

They need to just adopt Fergus and call it a day!  But perhaps they cannot because it has implications for who inherits Lallybroch.

Gotta give a shout out to my boy, the American air force man from Texarkana, Arkansas--my neck of the woods!

Glad that Willie is safe from Culloden by immigrating to the US.  I hope he survives the American Revolution!

I really liked the focus on Claire's PTSD.  This season, we have seen a few cracks in her superwoman persona.  I'm starting to see why Jamie sends her back to the future.  Jamie promised her she would never be alone again, and if he's dead, it's better that she be with Frank.

Is it just me or is that 16 year old Englishman another Tobias Menzies lookalike?  I kinda wish Claire had not interrupted the interrogation so we could see how far Jamie would go.  It's a pity he was saved from having to make the moral decision.  I'm assuming that will see young Mr. Grey soon and he will save Jamie's life in some way.  I hope he doesn't get whacked by the redcoats for revealing information.

I like that Jamie took the beating and held himself accountable for his mistake.  But I actually laughed at that scene, because I immediately thought, "here's the requisite Jamie Shirtless scene."  I also laughed at Jamie's "commando raid" because of the double entendre.  (For those not familiar with the expression, "going commando" is a colloquialism for not wearing underwear, and I believe they did not wear anything under the kilts.)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 6/4/2016 at 9:41 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Yay, Angus is back! Loved that he rinsed his mouth with whiskey in anticipation of getting a kiss from Claire.

 

On 6/11/2016 at 9:00 PM, nara said:

Glad to see Rupert, Angus, and Dougal again.  Now if could get Mrs. Fitz back, I would really be happy, but that seems unlikely.  

While I was also glad to see Rupert, Angus, and Dougal (less so Dougal), I was not/am not a fan of the whole weird thing they've got going with Angus constantly trying to get a kiss from Claire.  She's married - and he should respect that.  It's too much of that romance heroine/Mary Sue who everyone wants for me.  

I missed Willie, but I'm glad he's happily married and moved to America so he won't die in the war.  I would really like to get Mrs. Fitz back, but I'm afraid that won't happen.  Boo.

On 6/5/2016 at 11:04 AM, Daisy said:

as for the episode - this was really done well, and it is showing why (basically) Scotland fell. These are farmers. The Guerrilla warfare that Dougal and company want to do will not work with the redcoats, and Dougal can't see it he's so focused on being part of BPC's table, and no one else has experienced it other than Jamie (and Claire who knows how it will all end). they might Je Suis Pres all they want, but that's going to get them no where. 

I'm not even sure I would call how Dougal wants to fight (the Highland way?) guerrilla warfare - at least not as we know it.  When I think of guerrilla warfare, I think of more ambushes, or the commando raid like Jamie led.  

On 6/6/2016 at 2:47 AM, Andorra said:

And finally: History showed that Dougal's expectation the Scottish would be able to win against the English by simply overruning them and being brave, was wrong. It was just that strategy what made them lose the fight at Culloden. Bravery was no wapon against canons and a well disciplined army.

On the other hand, true guerrilla warfare, actually helped the American Revolutionaries win the war against England.  Different terrain makes a big difference, for one, and the Scottish highlands were not the American forests that didn't have the room/open fields to fight the traditional way that armies of that time period had gotten used to fighting: lining up and firing a volley of musket balls all at once.  Then, while the front line knelt to reload, the second line fired their shots, etc.   American patriots used the trees to hide behind to ambush the English armies in their nicely formed ranks.  Then hide to reload while the English soldiers stood out in the open (in plain view) to reload.  

So, Dougal might have had a good idea - it just was not well thought out or executed.  If it had been, it might have actually helped the Scots win the war again England.  

On 6/5/2016 at 4:19 PM, Glade said:

I was disappointed that Jaime hasn't progressed beyond lashings as a means of control--that he couldn't rise above that legacy and suggest alternatives.  Maybe Claire would have some ideas, as well, from her experiences in the 1940's.  I thought most of this episode could have been compressed or sped along more quickly.

I was also waiting with baited breath the entire episode wondering if Gellis would show up!  Is she alive?   The past two episodes have made great pains to not mention her name to Legohaire or Mcdougal who could be holding such information. 

I didn't even really think about this until you mentioned it.  But now that you have, I agree with you.  On the other hand, I guess the lashings are what the men know/expect?  Still, I think another form of punishment, even one with which they were not familiar, could have been equally effective.  

I was not, however, waiting for either Gellis or Laoghaire to return!  No thank you.

Also agree that most of the episode could have been moved along more quickly.  

On 6/5/2016 at 4:57 PM, terrymct said:

Some things confused me this week.

Dougal has been fundraising for the Stuart cause, buying materials, and storing them in caves.   Why wouldn't he know any other men who would want to voluntarily join up to fight?   Why wasn't there any mention of the supplies he has stashed for just this occasion?   All that said, it's good to see Dougal and the boys.   They're one of the best part of the series.  Dougal didn't seem himself, he was certainly more restrained.   It was also odd that he stood there and let Claire speech-a-fy her pop psychology at him, politely waiting his turn to speak.   I think, though, that's a characteristic of this show having characters deliver speeches and everyone else stands and waits for them to finish.

Good point.  I mean, the only men Dougal can rally to join the fight are Angus and Rupert?  (Other than the 10 men he tried to conscript, that is)  

Speaking of conscripting - this just occurred to me: Jamie was against Dougal enforcing men along the way to join the fight, but isn't that basically what he did with the men from Lallybroch?  Did any of them have an actual choice?  Ditto for the Fraser men from the old fox.  

Quote

Claire now has ptsd?   It's understandable, given that she was a nurse in a world war, but why is this the first we've seen of it.   Certainly there has been a fair amount of violence around her, even involving people she cares about or loves.    I don't understand why she was at the camp at all, even after her speech.  She has to be there because people she cares about could be in peril?   And do what?  Bandage the wounds afterward?  How does that make anything actually different.  Jamie should be concerned for HER safety and insist that she stay back at the castle.  She's the plucky romance novel heroine who's in the middle of everything and able to rise to all or most occasions (except when she or someone she loves is assaulted).

On the PTSD: yes and no - simply being a nurse during a war is not enough, imo, to give a person PTSD.  Many other nurses were on the front lines also, and didn't develop PTSD.  Every one is different, I guess.  I guess that one incident caused all her PTSD?  Curious, as you mentioned, that this is the first we've seen of it.  Even if it was the war setting which triggered it, I would think that her experience when she first fell through the stones with the English shooting at the Scots and running through the woods would have triggered it then also, but we didn't see it.  

She is also the plucky romance novel heroine who everyone wants (Jamie, Dougal, Angus, etc.)

On 6/8/2016 at 2:45 AM, Scaeva said:

From what I understand the head stones at modern day Culloden memorialize all the slain. There is one headstone for every clan that participated.

The Fraser head stone that Clair sees is a memorial for all the Fraser slain, rather than a tombstone for any one individual. 

There was also a MacKenzie headstone, wasn't there?  Which would have to mean that eventually more MacKenzies join the fight, yes?  

[paramitch]

Graham McTavish is a ridiculously charismatic actor. Sheesh. And I'd forgotten how weirdly hot he is as Dougal -- it was great to see him again, at his Dougal-ness, too -- both crafty and shifty, but also unexpectedly brave and lovable. He's one of my favorite characters on the show.

Meanwhile, it's been equally fun to watch Jamie come into his own as a commander, strategist and leader. He's grown so much since season 1, and yet it still feels believable and real to me. And it's enjoyable to watch Dougal shocked into obedience and respect, too.
 

On 6/4/2016 at 7:32 PM, HumblePi said:

I sort of miss seeing Frank back in England and what he's been going through. This series is so focused on Claire and Jamie and completely diminishes her life with Frank before her trip through time into 1760's Scotland.

I do too, especially since we've seen Black Jack being more heinous than ever. I like the fact that our glimpses of Frank last season helped to balance the two men and that they are vastly different people at heart. Besides, I have a soft spot for poor Frank.

On 6/5/2016 at 8:04 AM, Daisy said:

I really have to wonder if Jamie would have gone with the torture. (I really hope not), but the Claire/Jamie scene was hilarious including Claire kneeing him, his grunting Sassaneach, then her glare when he copped a feel and popped a kiss lol. That was quick thinking by Claire though 

Given the show's constant predilection for showing us the constant threat and reality of rape for women in the mid-1700s, I found that scene weirdly hilarious myself. It was like a subtle SNL sketch of an Outlander moment, there (and I laughed out loud when she kneed Jamie in the groin).

On 6/5/2016 at 10:31 AM, ganesh said:

Yeah, that "we tried so hard for 2 years to stop this?" Really Claire? When was that because I didn't see that much of the trying hard. 

I would definitely say that Claire has been single-mindedly focused on changing the future result of Culloden as soon as she and Jamie had a moment to breathe. They went on to risk everything repeatedly in Paris in order to undermine the Jacobites, in an effort that ultimately cost them their child, and have been equally single-minded upon their return in attempting to turn it into a victory, so I can support Claire's assertion that they've been trying for years now.

On 6/5/2016 at 1:57 PM, terrymct said:

Dougal has been fundraising for the Stuart cause, buying materials, and storing them in caves.   Why wouldn't he know any other men who would want to voluntarily join up to fight?  Why wasn't there any mention of the supplies he has stashed for just this occasion?   All that said, it's good to see Dougal and the boys. They're one of the best part of the series.

Claire now has ptsd?   It's understandable, given that she was a nurse in a world war, but why is this the first we've seen of it.  Certainly there has been a fair amount of violence around her, even involving people she cares about or loves.  I don't understand why she was at the camp at all, even after her speech.  She has to be there because people she cares about could be in peril?   And do what?  Bandage the wounds afterward?  How does that make anything actually different.

My take on Dougal's situation is that the MacKenzies have men, but that Colum's decision to remain neutral hampers him in accessing or using those men (and he's not going to openly undermine his brother). There would also be little reason for Dougal to spend his own money or supplies when BPC is funding the whole operation anyway.

I took Claire's PTSD as shown here to be very tied in with her experiences with loud, explosive guns and mortars in WW2, so she wouldn't have been triggered nearly as much by previous events as she was here, when back in a militarized setting with troops and muskets. It made sense to me that the constant noise of camp life, drilling and target practice would bring her back to her trauma during the war (and nurses were often in or near action in WW2).

Last but not least, I definitely think Claire's medical knowledge is an enormous asset to the camp, if she's willing to stay. She has access to knowledge and techniques they don't possess yet, and is the closest thing they have to an actual doctor. Her presence would certainly make the difference between life and death for dozens or even hundreds of wounded soldiers -- many of whom she knows and loves. I can't see her staying out of it and retreating back to Lallybroch -- it just wouldn't be Claire.

On 6/6/2016 at 9:47 AM, ganesh said:

I'm not a fan of predestination in time travel, but if that's what they're going for, as long as it's consistent I can buy it. I'm more of Claire is changing things by just being there (and also Gellis is her daughter).  

Claire returns to the future in 1948 and presumably gives birth in 1949. Meanwhile, Geillis went back in time in the 1960s. If she was in fact Claire's child, she would have been in her mid to late teens at the time, which doesn't seem to fit with the Outlander timeline we've seen, as Lotte Verbeek, the actress who plays Geillis, was 34 while filming her part in s1. The timeline for me is a good decade off even if they fudged the actress's age by 5 years or so. But it will be interesting to wait and see.

On 6/9/2016 at 10:55 AM, iMonrey said:

Judging by the look of it, it seems unlikely Jamie has any feeling left in his back. The skin looks like it's almost entirely scar tissue. I bet six measly lashes at this point wouldn't even make him flinch. Seriously - he can probably feel very little on his back anymore. I think, as the recap suggests, the purpose of him taking the lashes was to show his men what he's suffered through before. 

I agree with the fact that Jamie's scars mean he wouldn't feel much. Also, the "lashings" that are being given appear fairly, deliberately mild -- and they are visibly made with the flat of the leather (versus a thin or barbed edge like BJR was using). It works for me that they'd still use mild flogging, because that would have been historically a common punishment for any semi-military group of the period.

I think in this case, it's more about the public humiliation of punishment before the rest of the camp, versus real pain, and that the clan is simply accustomed to this kind of brutality -- back in S1, for instance, the Mackenzies were prepared to watch Laoghaire publicly beaten for a minor transgression, if Jamie hadn't allowed himself to be beaten instead.

Edited August 8, 2016 by paramitch
Forgot about Dougal!

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 8:04 AM, Daisy said:

Poor Claire and her PTSD. that was heartbreaking. (Catriona is seriously gunning for an Emmy this year, I swear). and I'm glad that A: Jamie left her alone for a while, B: saw something was wrong and stopped leaving her alone for a while, and C: that promise that she'd never be alone. awwww. 

I really have to wonder if Jamie would have gone with the torture. (I really hope not), but the Claire/Jamie scene was hilarious including Claire kneeing him, his grunting Sassaneach, then her glare when he copped a feel and popped a kiss lol. That was quick thinking by Claire though 

I agree, Catriona was great in those PTSD scenes. And number C: awwww that was sweet of Jamie to promise she'd never be alone and we've known since episode 1 he keeps this promise.

That was quick thinking by Claire and also Jamie catching on so quickly. It was like the vision scene they did in front of his grandfather. I did laugh when Claire kneed Jamie in his jewels and he grunted and she whispered sorry while still acting like the damsel in distress lol.

I was shocked Dougal stood there and let Claire speak to him that way. I was waiting for her to tell him the promise to marry him is void since Jamie didn't die in prison. Also he refused to help rescue Jamie so he had some balls showing up at camp. He didn't look too shocked when she use the word Fuck. Gee, I wonder if that's because he's heard it before, maybe from a redheaded woman?

I liked this episode a lot especially the flashbacks of Claire with the American soldiers. Shoutout to my fellow Countrymen.  

[Camera One]

I'm glad we saw the training and I'm glad they didn't rush it, though I found this episode felt a bit long and was less engaging.  I guess I'm still a bit bored because we know what's going to happen with the battle, and I still don't understand why Jaime or Claire would think they would win this time around.  After the last episode, it was interesting to read about the real Lord Lovat.  It might be interesting if the next few episodes leading up to the battle followed history more closely.

I thought Claire being impacted by her experiences from WWII was interesting, though.  I wish we got more flashbacks to flesh out her actual character.  Ditto for Jaime... I was surprised to hear he fought for the French.  

[gingerella]

For me this was one of those episodes where I held my breath most of the time, waiting for something terrible to happen, and it never did. However, there was such a deep sense of foreboding pervading every corner of every scene, knowing that carnage is around the corner and we, the Viewer, cannae do anything to stop it, ye ken? The first thing that caught my ear was the music they were playing as the episode opened into Scotland - that was a reprise, I believe, of the tune that the musician played in the first 'concert' at Castle Leoch. It's such a haunting song, and it made me feel a painful nostalgia for a Viewer's Castle Leoch/S01 days, when all seemed so much more innocent than now, with Culloden on the horizon. I longed for the good old days when Jamie and Claire cavorted and canoodled around MacKenzie lands, all moon-eyed and romantic and such like (you have to say that last bit of sentence in a Jamie burr, go on now, re-read it like that, you'll be thankin' me later, ye ken?!). Now? They are moving ever closer to a war that will end badly and it's really difficult to watch it, even though it's a TV show, it's like watching a train wreck happen in slow motion.

Claire's PTSD was heartbreaking to watch, that is something that you never know when it's going to kick in, and it was hard to watch her reliving traumatic moments from her own war efforts. The way the show never told us anything beyond a few army hospital scenes made these flashbacks all the more jarring ,which was a good plot device to help me understand Claire is a bit more complex than I thought. It was interesting that she mentioned the "dragonfly trapped in amber" metaphor because that's what Hugh gave her as an spur of the moment wedding gift, yes? I am always on the lookout for references to previous happenings... I liked how Jamie kept watch over Claire, along with Murtagh, knowing she wasn't herself, and he was there when she was ready to share with him. I also appreciated seeing Murtagh and Fergus again, and of course Angus, Rupert and Dougal! And good for Willy to escape to Ireland with his new bride, he was always a nice guy and now he won't die at Culloden so good for him! I cannae help but wonder what happened to Ned though, after his gun outburst at the witch trial, and I hope we find out his whereabouts before this season ends.

Speaking of Dougal...I can't make out where he's going right now, mentally speaking. Seeing him take Jamie's orders felt like he was on a slow burn, cooking up something awful, and to be honest when Jamie went off to raid the red coats camp, I really thought Dougal would bust into Claire's room and rape her. I was bracing myself for that after their interactions earlier in the episode. Dougal acted like their 'deal' for him to marry her if Jamie died was somehow still 'on'. He's rather delusional, and Claire pegged him, he is a narcissist, and he is always about Dougal. I also felt like Jamie didn't really communicate well with him, he could have explained that the type of warfare that he's seen in France with both French and British armies is nothing like Highland warfare. There are huge canons and guns and they need a different type of training now. But instead he just told Dougal he was wrong, SO THERE. Plus, what they were teaching these farmers isn't exactly going to make for great soldiers so Jamie's not really helping the situation either. I guess he's trying to make chicken salad out of heaps of chicken shit.

Also, and not for nothing, but where is all the money in the war chest that Dougal's been collecting when he went on rent collection? I remember Colum gave that money to him in the end, so did he buy weapons? I doesn't seem so since he's traveling light. He clearly didn't buy men, so where's that money? Is he waiting to hand it over to BPC himself as a way to ingratiate himself to the Big Boss? I personally think at this point, that if Dougal does get an audience with BPC, he would likely be made a fool of by BPC, or not be taken seriously. I just get that feeling, for whatever reason, Dougal meeting BPC won't go well, so let's see if they meet or not. Surely BPC would welcome his manbro, Jamie, into his inner circle, or will he have been replaced by others now?

When Jamie made promises to Claire - it was twice wasn't it? - that she'd never be alone, I again wished we'd not had the very first scene of S02 happen already, because it's ruining this season for me, knowing what happens. But watching Claire receive these promises from Jamie and not know what he means, but WE know what he means - that he's going to send her back through the Stones - it's bittersweet to watch that.

What else...The spy kid...I assumed he was with BJR's troops, but he never said that did he? I don't think he did and I thought that was what Jamie was trying to get out of him at first. And the speech he gave Jamie at the end, that sounded familiar to me, but I dinnae ken why...

Claire has the best home spun woolen wardrobe of anyone I've ever seen in 18th century rural Scotland! I wonder who her tailor is, I'd love some of her clothes myself...

ETA1: I am dreading the rest of this season...

ETA2: After sleeping on it, one thing really stands out to me, and that is Jamie's growth from a somewhat hapless lad into a leader amongst men. When we met him in S01, he was basically on the run, hiding out under a false name on his uncle's lands and under his uncle's protection. He was relying on others to protect him and seemed to have no direction in life. Then he talks in one S01 episode about feeling exactly that way, and after he meets and marries Claire he realizes that all his steps forward that he thought were random, were not random and they've all led to this place where he now is, with this new wife whom he is completely and utterly devoted to. Then he goes to France and it's a bit Laurel & Hardy Try to Stop a Rebellion, but he was getting his legs under him, sort of like a colt when it's learning to stand by itself.  Sure he made mistakes a plenty, but with Claire he has a raison d'être now, and he was at least focused on achieving some sort of redirection of the rebellion. When they went back to Scotland, they recouped at Lallybroch and all seemed rather pastoral, but as soon as news came of the Rebellion, suddenly Jamie was a full-fledged man. A man ready to rally the troops, literally and figuratively, and who was ready to lead his men into battle. So after watching this episode last night, I suddenly realized that I was watching Jamie finally grow up into full manhood. He is ready and able to stand up to Dougal, who assumes he is the leader of the show because he's an elder and a clan war chief, but Jamie lays down the law with him, making it clear if he's not going to take orders from Jamie then he can damn well take his leave. That's pretty heavy given that up until that moment, Dougal always acted like he could do whatever he wanted to with Jamie and Jamie would have no say in it - like the whole 'show them your back so we can collect money for the Rebellion' bullshit sideshow. This was a gigantic paradigm shift between those two men, the old traditional guard, and the new modern thinking guard. I know I mentioned it above, but I'm just waiting for Dougal to explode because a quiet Dougal, accepting what he will no doubt take as public humiliation from his nephew, has to come back to kick someone in the ass soon. There's no way Dougal is just quietly accepting his role as elder statesman has been diminished by his nephew. No.Way. Something bad is going to come of this vis a vis Dougal...It makes me wary for the next episodes because I fear it's still Claire that will be his target of revenge...Oy.

Edited April 19, 2021 by gingerella

[Cdh20]

On 3/8/2021 at 1:33 AM, Camera One said:

I'm glad we saw the training and I'm glad they didn't rush it, though I found this episode felt a bit long and was less engaging.  I guess I'm still a bit bored because we know what's going to happen with the battle, and I still don't understand why Jaime or Claire would think they would win this time around.  After the last episode, it was interesting to read about the real Lord Lovat.  It might be interesting if the next few episodes leading up to the battle followed history more closely.

 

The real Lord Lovat was hung at the Tower of London for being a traitor & when I had a tour there a few years ago, they told us he was the last person to be hung there. I certainly wouldn’t have known him or much about the Jacobite rebellions if I had not watched Outlander. 

[SassAndSnacks]

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

However, there was such a deep sense of foreboding pervading every corner of every scene, knowing that carnage is around the corner and we, the Viewer, cannae do anything to stop it, ye ken?

I feel like that has been the whole season.  Because...

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

They are moving ever closer to a war that will end badly and it's really difficult to watch it, even though it's a TV show, it's like watching a train wreck happen in slow motion.

That and...

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

I again wished we'd not had the very first scene of S02 happen already, because it's ruining this season for me, knowing what happens.

That.

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

The way the show never told us anything beyond a few army hospital scenes made these flashbacks all the more jarring ,which was a good plot device to help me understand Claire is a bit more complex than I thought.

Loved these scenes.  Our girl has done and seen some things, and I feel like we forget that sometimes, especially when she was in Paris and was so hapless and anxious and not herself.  Important to remember, too, that she isn't THAT far removed from WWII, just two years or so at this point.  I can't imagine just coming out of a horrific, all-encompassing event like that, only to be thrust right back into one that will be just as horrific, all-encompassing, and downright bloody.  And to know it is going to happen.  And to know first-hand, not just the historical context, but the actual first-hand knowledge of what war is really like, and to still get up in the morning and ask the other ladies to make bannocks.  That woman is incredible.  

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

leader amongst men.

People...uber, die-hard, Obsessanach fans (I don't know ANYTHING about this kind of fandom)...do refer to him as the King of Men.  And well, yeah.  He is.

This episode is my 2nd favorite of the entire season.  I love watching Jamie be a leader and learning more about Claire pre-Stones and sans Frank.  Plus, how swoon-worthy is Jamie when he says "Commando Raid."  In a season that I mostly don't like, I always make a point to watch this one on repeat.  

[gingerella]

20 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

And to know first-hand, not just the historical context, but the actual first-hand knowledge of what war is really like, and to still get up in the morning and ask the other ladies to make bannocks.  That woman is incredible.  

Yes this! It puts Claire more in focus as not Frank's wife or Jamie's wife, but just Claire Elizabeth Beauchamp, army war nurse who's seen some shit and then some.

21 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Plus, how swoon-worthy is Jamie when he says "Commando Raid."  In a season that I mostly don't like, I always make a point to watch this one on repeat.  

As I'm saying what a grown man he was in this episode, that little bit was the old Jamie, capering about and such like back in the S01 episode where Claire is trying to solve the mystery of the dying boy. He was giddy with his "we were on a commando raid...commando, that's what you call it, aye?" I assume he got that lingo from Claire when she was describing her war experience but I dinnae remember it from that part of the episode. But I'll have to re watch before moving on anyway.

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Yes this! It puts Claire more in focus as not Frank's wife or Jamie's wife, but just Claire Elizabeth Beauchamp, army war nurse who's seen some shit and then some.

As I'm saying what a grown man he was in this episode, that little bit was the old Jamie, capering about and such like back in the S01 episode where Claire is trying to solve the mystery of the dying boy. He was giddy with his "we were on a commando raid...commando, that's what you call it, aye?" I assume he got that lingo from Claire when she was describing her war experience but I dinnae remember it from that part of the episode. But I'll have to re watch before moving on anyway.

If there is one thing I love about Jamie it’s that he listens to every word Claire says, & remembers it all! 

[Beeyago]

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Plus, how swoon-worthy is Jamie when he says "Commando Raid." 

Aye😍😅

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

If there is one thing I love about Jamie

One thing??  Heehee. I can think of a few😉

[SassAndSnacks]

12 hours ago, gingerella said:

Yes this! It puts Claire more in focus as not Frank's wife or Jamie's wife, but just Claire Elizabeth Beauchamp, army war nurse who's seen some shit and then some.

So much this. 

You can't help but believe that Jamie understands more about what Claire experienced in the war than Frank does/did.  Jamie has been in battle.  Frank, though serving in the British military, wasn't at the front.  He didn't see it first-hand.  

10 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

If there is one thing I love about Jamie it’s that he listens to every word Claire says, & remembers it all! 

And this, my friends, is how we know that Jamie was written by a woman. 🙂

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, SassAndSnacks said:

  

And this, my friends, is how we know that Jamie was written by a woman. 🙂

😂😂😂truer words were never spoken! 

10 hours ago, Beeyago said:

Aye😍😅

One thing??  Heehee. I can think of a few😉

So many I can’t count....☺️

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

15 hours ago, gingerella said:

Yes this! It puts Claire more in focus as not Frank's wife or Jamie's wife, but just Claire Elizabeth Beauchamp, army war nurse who's seen some shit and then some.

So much this. 

You can't help but believe that Jamie understands more about what Claire experienced in the war than Frank does/did.  Jamie has been in battle.  Frank, though serving in the British military, wasn't at the front.  He didn't see it first-hand.  

Not only did Frank not see war first-hand, he hid from it intentionally, something our James Alexander Malcolm MacKenzie Fraser would never ever do! Jamie would never run away from fighting for something if he felt it was right, and even then he's shown he would fight for others if he feels it's the right thing to do. We say such men are 'honorable', so where does that leave old Frank then, cowering haplessly in his cushy city digs whilst his fellow countrymen are on the front lines?

And we cannae forget that Frank wanted to hide Claire from war as well,with his offer to pull in a favor from his higher ups to get her a desk job or something in London with him. But Claire could not conceive of staying put in London when she knew she could make a difference to injured soldiers on the front lines. And so she refuses his offer to sit in a cushy job near him whilst others go in her stead. These scenes of war show how similar Claire is to Jamie in very fundamental ways, they both hold 'honor' above their own safety. Claire has shown us this over and over, nearly every time she opens her gob and gets into trouble in S01, it's because she's standing up for something she feels is the right thing to do, usually another being wronged. The lady who's goat was taken as rent payment, the boy who's hand was to be cut off, little Rabbie's father beating him, and the list goes on. All the times we've thought, "Oh Claire, STFU, you're just getting into more trouble, looking back now after this episode, I hadn't seen this pattern of motivation until just now. Claire is so like Jamie in this manner, and honor and doing the right thing are who they both are. No wonder they were so drawn to one another, in times when others were running away from conflict, they weren't afraid to run into it if it meant doing the right thing.

[nara]

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

Not only did Frank not see war first-hand, he hid from it intentionally, something our James Alexander Malcolm MacKenzie Fraser would never ever do! Jamie would never run away from fighting for something if he felt it was right, and even then he's shown he would fight for others if he feels it's the right thing to do. We say such men are 'honorable', so where does that leave old Frank then, cowering haplessly in his cushy city digs whilst his fellow countrymen are on the front lines?

I think it’s pretty unfair to call someone working in military intelligence a coward.

[Anothermi]

This is probably the best place for me to tell this little story.

That clan Motto: Je suis Prest was a big annoyance to me when it first came up because I'm from  an—ostensibly—bi-lingual nation (English/French). So when Jamie said "l am ready" in French as his clan motto I understood what he meant before he translated it. But when I saw how it was spelled I was dumbfounded. THAT doesn't mean I am ready. I even google translated it and it came up "I am nimble" (which, while not totally unrelated, is not—quite—I am ready). Finally I had the brainstorm of asking Professor Google how to pronounce I am ready in ancient French. Et voila! Same spelling as in the show. I was very glad to know that the author had done her research. 

On 4/18/2021 at 11:37 PM, gingerella said:

it made me feel a painful nostalgia for a Viewer's Castle Leoch/S01 days, when all seemed so much more innocent than now, with Culloden on the horizon

This was a big reason why I liked this episode, I think. The nostalgia for the first season and the quirky characters we came to know—even Dougal!

On 4/18/2021 at 11:37 PM, gingerella said:

Claire's PTSD was heartbreaking to watch, that is something that you never know when it's going to kick in, and it was hard to watch her reliving traumatic moments from her own war efforts.

 

20 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Important to remember, too, that she isn't THAT far removed from WWII, just two years or so at this point.

 

On 4/18/2021 at 11:37 PM, gingerella said:

I liked how Jamie kept watch over Claire, along with Murtagh, knowing she wasn't herself, and he was there when she was ready to share with him.

It really was good to see more of Claire's actual experiences in the war. And as the memories kept coming—to realize just how recent those experiences were! Keeping those experiences from us until now was a good call. And that Jamie and Murtagh could see that something was not quite right with her—that's something we've come to expect. 

But I think Claire had been sending subtle—and perhaps unintentional—signals about something else since we saw her and Jamie greet Murtagh when they 1st arrived at the training camp. Claire was repeatedly resting her hand on her belly. That was something she did when she was pregnant previously and I wouldn't be surprised if she is again—already. I would have expected Murtagh to pick up on that, but perhaps there were too many other things on his mind. I don't mention Jamie picking up on that signal because he's likely trying to not think about that possibility—given the circumstances they are facing. 

On 4/18/2021 at 11:37 PM, gingerella said:

It was interesting that she mentioned the "dragonfly trapped in amber" metaphor because that's what Hugh gave her as an spur of the moment wedding gift, yes?

Yes. That object seemed like it should come up again, but it has been a long time since last season when it only got a brief scene. So the question is—where does she keep it? She's been travelling far and wide—sometimes with just the clothes on her back—and it's not been seen or referenced. Plus, Claire doesn't have a sporran like Jamie has— to keep everything-including-the-kitchen-sink in. Where is it?

On 4/18/2021 at 11:37 PM, gingerella said:

And good for Willy to escape to Ireland with his new bride

Rupert went on to say that he and his new bride sailed off to America with his bride's family—and then he declares Willie a traitorous bastard who's name will never be spoken again (paraphrased).

As for Ned? He's a lawyer. He'll land on his feet—but not at the front lines of anything. 

On 4/18/2021 at 11:37 PM, gingerella said:

Speaking of Dougal...

I agree that Dougal is a wild card in this narrative. He's currently always-the-bridesmaid-never-the-bride which can't sit well for a man's man like Dougal.

On 4/18/2021 at 11:37 PM, gingerella said:

but where is all the money in the war chest that Dougal's been collecting when he went on rent collection? I remember Colum gave that money to him in the end, so did he buy weapons?

When Claire and Murtagh became a traveling minstrel/ healing show last season, Dougal brought Claire to the cavern where he was hoarding all the weapons he had amassed. So yeah. What happened to them?

I think I can rate this episode among my favourites. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

6 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

This is probably the best place for me to tell this little story.

That clan Motto: Je suis Prest was a big annoyance to me when it first came up because I'm from  an—ostensibly—bi-lingual nation (English/French). So when Jamie said "l am ready" in French as his clan motto I understood what he meant before he translated it. But when I saw how it was spelled I was dumbfounded. THAT doesn't mean I am ready. I even google translated it and it came up "I am nimble" (which, while not totally unrelated, is not—quite—I am ready). Finally I had the brainstorm of asking Professor Google how to pronounce I am ready in ancient French. Et voila! Same spelling as in the show. I was very glad to know that the author had done her research. 

I remember you taking issue with it not being Je suis Prêt, yes? I had been meaning to tell ye that I had looked it up in my old family crests book and indeed Show is correct, as ye know ken. But another interesting thing, at least to me since I love heraldry, is that the silver ring which stirred our interest in S02E01, the ring Claire is flailing about desperately trying to find when she wakes up at the other side of the Stones, and it's missing it's centerpiece. That ring I had ID'd on one of the close ups in Paris as the Fraser family crest, a stag. But when worn as a family crest (the entire coat of arms is usually reserved for the clan chief/Laird (like Colum or Grandsire dude), the Fraser crest is a stag's head only, but on Jamie's ring it is a full body stag, which is very odd to me as making such changes in one's family crest simply is not done. I'm not sure if it means something yet to be revealed to us Viewers, or if someone just decided to make it a full body stag because they didn't think it changed anything. Any subtle difference between the position or what portions of an animal showing on a crest are extremely specific to that family/house/clan.

 

17 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

 

On 4/18/2021 at 11:37 PM, gingerella said:

It was interesting that she mentioned the "dragonfly trapped in amber" metaphor because that's what Hugh gave her as an spur of the moment wedding gift, yes?

Yes. That object seemed like it should come up again, but it has been a long time since last season when it only got a brief scene. So the question is—where does she keep it? She's been travelling far and wide—sometimes with just the clothes on her back—and it's not been seen or referenced. Plus, Claire doesn't have a sporran like Jamie has— to keep everything-including-the-kitchen-sink in. Where is it?

I believe Claire does have at least one leather bag attached to her saddle, which likely holds some personal belongings. I mean, she also has Ellen Fraser's pearls and her silver/bone cuffs, she has to be keeping them somewhere, along with her medical box and the never ending array of fabulous hand spun woolens she is always changing into! Girl's gotta have some sort of luggage going on.

[SassAndSnacks]

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

All the times we've thought, "Oh Claire, STFU, you're just getting into more trouble, looking back now after this episode, I hadn't seen this pattern of motivation until just now. Claire is so like Jamie in this manner, and honor and doing the right thing are who they both are. No wonder they were so drawn to one another, in times when others were running away from conflict, they weren't afraid to run into it if it meant doing the right thing.

I had faith that you would come around!!  The Claire Elizabeth Beauchamp Randall Fraser fan club is always accepting new members.  We don't have member jackets, per se, but we do have knit shawls with our emblem embroidered on them.  

3 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I was very glad to know that the author had done her research. 

Diana is nothing if not thorough in her research.  The books are SO dense, mainly because she researches everything to the nth degree and then edits out none of it.  I have learned so much useless minutiae from reading these novels so many times, and I love it.  She's a brilliant woman with multiple degrees in science fields, and it really shows in the perfect, minor details like this one.  

[Pallas]

On 4/20/2021 at 2:01 PM, gingerella said:

Not only did Frank not see war first-hand, he hid from it intentionally,

No. He was a wartime officer assigned to the British Army Intelligence Corps, which made up 40% of the personnel assigned to the famous codebreaking unit, Operation Ultra, and which worked with Special Operations Executive to conduct espionage, sabotage and liaison with Resistance forces throughout Occupied Europe and Asia. Their work helped shorten the war. 

On 4/20/2021 at 6:17 PM, Anothermi said:

When Claire and Murtagh became a traveling minstrel/ healing show last season, Dougal brought Claire to the cavern where he was hoarding all the weapons he had amassed. So yeah. What happened to them?

 

I think they showed up in the hands of the men once they more or less mastered their drills and moved on to combat training. 

This was a favorite episode for me. I think knowing that the Jacobites will still lose at Culloden, and that Claire will return through the stones, adds a depth and tension I savor more than suspense. 

[gingerella]

On 4/20/2021 at 6:28 PM, SassAndSnacks said:

On 4/20/2021 at 11:01 AM, gingerella said:

All the times we've thought, "Oh Claire, STFU, you're just getting into more trouble, looking back now after this episode, I hadn't seen this pattern of motivation until just now. Claire is so like Jamie in this manner, and honor and doing the right thing are who they both are. No wonder they were so drawn to one another, in times when others were running away from conflict, they weren't afraid to run into it if it meant doing the right thing.

I had faith that you would come around!!  The Claire Elizabeth Beauchamp Randall Fraser fan club is always accepting new members.  We don't have member jackets, per se, but we do have knit shawls with our emblem embroidered on them.  

Well I can only join if membership includes a complimentary hand made woolen wrap thingy, a Fraser shawl, and a nice tweedy woolen skirt outfit! I would happily wear most of her outfits in real life.

19 hours ago, Pallas said:

On 4/20/2021 at 11:01 AM, gingerella said:

Not only did Frank not see war first-hand, he hid from it intentionally,

No. He was a wartime officer assigned to the British Army Intelligence Corps, which made up 40% of the personnel assigned to the famous codebreaking unit, Operation Ultra, and which worked with Special Operations Executive to conduct espionage, sabotage and liaison with Resistance forces throughout Occupied Europe and Asia. Their work helped shorten the war. 

Okay, I stand corrected, you are right in that he didn't hide per se, but the way he was trying to get Claire to take a desk job that he could arrange for her made him sound like he was fine not being on the front lines and seeing direct action, whereas Claire was willing to go where she was needed most, even if it meant the front lines, which is a trait she shares with Jamie. Frank didn't seem like he'd willingly go to the front, regardless of what his job was, which is a trait he does not share with Claire, IMO of course!

ETA: I just re watched this episode last night and it's so much more enjoyable to watch the non violent episodes a second time when you know that nothing horrible is going to befall your beloved protagonists! One thing that hit me was when they're panning across 'Camp Fraser', that haunting music is playing and the angle is such that it looks like everything is tilted downward towards the left of the screen. I don't know if this was intentional on the part of camera direction, but that combined with the melancholy music we hear from back in Castle Leoch, made me think, "This Highland way of life is quite literally slipping into oblivion and they just don't know it..." It just added to the heartbreak of knowing nearly all of them were going to die soon at Culloden. Well done Show, if that was intentional camerawork!

Also @Anothermi, I kept watch for Claire touching her stomach as if pregnant and the only time I saw it was when they first arrive and greet Murtagh, so maybe baby, maybe not. Doesn't much matter though since we all know what's coming...grrrr...

Edited April 22, 2021 by gingerella

[mythoughtis]

Everyone who served on the right side of WWII did their part.  It’s not cowardice to be in intelligence or vehicle maintenance or to be a cook.  Those jobs were necessary  to the war effort.  George Bailey couldn’t  fight in WWI- did that make him a coward? 

I do not think Geillis is Claire’s daughter.  Her daughter had bright red hair.  It might get darker with age. It’s not likely to turn blond.  Nor would Geillis be able to dye her hair. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by mythoughtis