S06.E05: The Door

[Athena]

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Episode Synopsis:
Tyrion seeks a strange ally. Bran learns a great deal. Brienne goes on a mission. Arya is given a chance to prove herself.

[90PercentGravity]

Lots of action, but I hate paradoxes  (paradoxen?). I still wept for Hodor. That sucked.

Sansa is still stupid. I was confused by that whole business. Brienne said she didn't like leaving Sansa alone, but then they all left together. 

I'm bored with Arya's whole thing. Also, that dick shot totally doesn't count. 

The new red priestess had the same choker. Is she old, too? 

[janjan]

Hmmm. After 3 solid episodes, this one was kind of disappointing. Even the gratuitous dick shot couldn't save it. It was just checking in (ok, Dany is out of Widowville, and Arya is still in Nowheresville) and setting stages (ok, we have another Red Woman and another douchebag Ironborn king, and both Varys and LF get out-talked). Except for the double tragedy of Hodor (which only Stephen Hawking could understand) and Summer, the Zoombee Jamboree was a CGI bore. Or were they extras? Whatever. So Bran's gonna sally forth as a not-ready 3-eyed raven? OK, whatever.  C'mon Show, move on.

[walnutqueen]

I tried watching more than once, and STILL managed a WTF did I just see.

[gingerella]

janjan, you pretty well summed up my feelings for me.  

A Girl's story is boring me to tears now and even Jacquen Hagar cannot interest me.  Why O Why did Sansa allow Lf to live? Her speech to him was heartbreaking, and I just wanted Brienne to kill that asshole right then and there, but no, we have to deal with LF even longer. he is always lying his ass off, no way do I believe he was sincere in wanting to help Sansa take back Winterfell and get revenge on the little shithead (I am sick of writing that fuckers name so he is now the little shithead).  Bran's story is also starting to bore me because any time I see those RiDICulous and very poorly done CGI zombonis I just laugh. I am scared to death of horror films and anything gorey so if they don't scare me, they aren't scary and/or they are poorly done. I said this end of last season after the Battle at Hardhome, whomever does those zombonis needs to be fired because those are a big fat FAIL. they are so campy that they take me out of A Show immediately. 

The loss of Hodor and Summer was incredibly sad and tragic and I am trying to figure it what it all means. Obviously "Hodor" means "Hold the Door", now we know. But it also seems to imply that somehow there is a time warp thingamajig going on here...which is what I alluded to recently, IIRC.  there is seriously freaky magic going down now, and if Mel can birth a smoke baby assassin out of her cooch, then I think time travel of some sort is no longer that far fetched.  I think to date most of the magic has been fairly benign overall, but now it's getting to another level that seems to be jumping the shark in silliness. Sol Bran is watching Wyllis have what looks like an epileptic seizure while yelling Hold The Door over and over, meanwhile whatshername is yelling to older Hodor to Hold The Door against the zombonis.  I see the connection clearly but I don't understand it at all right now, someone please shoot a spitball my way....

[Anothermi]

Quote

Pallas wrote in Oathbreaker thread:

Hodor the Little Man. (snip) Hodor the brave, perceptive and true-blue. A Ser in serf's clothing. Hodor who is right there, as they say on TV, still serving the Starks as Bran's legs. Hodor who Bran, too, has used: as a soldier, killing other soldiers, and who hated it. Maybe what he hated were the memories.

A beautiful epitaph for a favourite character. RIP Hodor/Wyllis.  It fits well here.

The time jump thing is un-nerving. Perhaps Wyllis, like Jojen, had a special ability too. What we saw was that space/time continuum thingy I wondered about back when Ned was shown to be aware of Bran's presence. Wyllis, in the moment they were showing this episode, could hear the call for help and when Bran (who was at Winterfell via a trance) connected with Hodor back under the tree, he also connected with Wyllis in his vision. Wyllis experienced his own death - years before it happened. No wonder Hodor got so agitated when chaos broke out around him. He never knew when the end he already experienced would actually come. And it was a long time coming.

So I think the first part of Pallas' quote from above is also relevant here:

Quote

... what if both...I'm sure you're right, Butterfly, that A Show wasn't ready, whether or not Bran might be. And I bet you're right, gingerella, that at least part of the reason Root Dude ostensibly fears Bran won't be ready, is that one consequence of the secret involves harm to Hodor.

Closing the mystery of Hodor is enough for me tonight. He may not be the big story, but his is an important one.

[Llywela]

Summer! Hodor! Damn, I haven't been this upset since...well, actually, since Jon got stabbed and Shireen got burned, so not that long ago at all, really.

22 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

The time jump thing is un-nerving. Perhaps Wyllis, like Jojen, had a special ability too. What we saw was that space/time continuum thingy I wondered about back when Ned was shown to be aware of Bran's presence. Wyllis, in the moment they were showing this episode, could hear the call for help and when Bran (who was at Winterfell via a trance) connected with Hodor back under the tree, he also connected with Wyllis in his vision. Wyllis experienced his own death - years before it happened. No wonder Hodor got so agitated when chaos broke out around him. He never knew when the end he already experienced would actually come. And it was a long time coming.

That's my reading of it - thanks for putting it into words! It seemed to me that because Bran warged into Hodor while still in his trance state visiting long-ago Winterfell, and especially since he focused on past-Wyllis in order to form the link with now-Hodor, he inadvertently created a link between then-Wyllis and now-Hodor, a horrible kind of closed-loop paradox which generates as many questions as it answers. We now, horribly, know exactly what happened to turn Wyllis into Hodor - he experienced his own death while psychically connected to his later self, and it damaged him irreparably, probably physically as well as mentally, judging by what we saw. Clearly that kind of link between past and future is not supposed to happen! It's also horrible because it was Bran's fault. All of it, all those deaths, were Bran's fault. He was bored and rebellious, so went into an unguided trance, got himself tagged by the White Walker, and thus allowed the Army of the Dead to find him and his hidden companions - directly leading to Summer and Hodor's deaths, plus Hodor's lifelong affliction, as well as the deaths of Root Dude and Fairy Girl. And now he has to live with that.

Speaking of which, did Root Dude and Fairy Girl ever get names? Root Dude told Bran he was going to have to become him - by which I guess he meant the resident Seer of Westeros? But he also previously told Bran he wouldn't have to become a tree, but it isn't clear whether that's because becoming a tree isn't actually a job requirement, or because he'd already seen what was coming and knew what to expect! Confusing.

Of course, we also now know that Bran is capable of interacting with and influencing what he sees while in a trance state, which is a dangerous power indeed.

Sansa, meanwhile, is allowing her feelings to cloud her judgement, it seems. Got to admit, I did enjoy seeing her smack Littlefinger down - it's rare to see him at a complete loss for words like that. He's used to being able to talk his way around anyone, and I can't tell whether he genuinely didn't know how awful Ramsay was or not. Either way, he misjudged Sansa's reaction to her situation - perhaps he simply didn't expect her to escape, and thought she'd be so grateful when he came for her that she'd forgive and forget that he was the one who put her there in the first place. But she got away without him, and is not prepared to forgive. Which is understandable, completely. But she's forgotten everything Littlefinger taught her about using people. She doesn't have to forgive him to make use of the army he's offering, which she and Jon desperately need - and not wanting Jon to know she refused that army is of course the reason she lied to him. But then again, maybe she was right to say no - the army of the Vale would be useful, but they'd never be able to trust Littlefinger as an ally. But surely Jon's war council needed to have as much information at their disposal as possible, and make that decision as a group.

I'm ready for Arya to leave Braavos now. Whatever lessons she is learning are being learnt painfully slowly, and it bothers me that there's that huge temple with apparently only three people knocking about in it. Damn, but her face while watching that play - that hurt. She can claim to be no one as much as she likes, she's still Arya Stark under the skin, and always will be. Her sense of self is too strong - and I'm pretty sure both A Man and Other Girl know it. So I don't really know what they are playing at or what their angle is - do they think they can train Arya Stark out of her eventually? Do they want her for some other purpose? What?

Interesting to see another Melisandre! Someone should tell Jorah about whatever it was Stannis did to cure Shireen. Was that the start of his faith in the Red God? In that case, Jorah would be better off heading back to Mereen with Dany to hook up with that Red Priestess, pronto. He has the advantage of her already believing in Dany as the chosen one.

Speaking of which, Uncle Greyjoy it seems is another Dany supporter, which is interesting. Got to admit, I really enjoyed seeing Theon and Yara united like that, and pulling together, after everything. Apparently I have a real soft spot for sibling unity.

[Pallas]

A tremendous post, Llywela.  From "Summer! Hodor! Damn, I haven't been this upset since...well, actually, since Jon got stabbed and Shireen got burned, so not that long ago at all, really" to the end.  

48 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Clearly that kind of link between past and future is not supposed to happen! It's also horrible because it was Bran's fault. All of it, all those deaths, were Bran's fault. He was bored and rebellious, so went into an unguided trance, got himself tagged by the White Walker, and thus allowed the Army of the Dead to find him and his hidden companions - directly leading to Summer and Hodor's deaths, plus Hodor's lifelong affliction, as well as the deaths of Root Dude and Fairy Girl. And now he has to live with that.

Yes. All true, all terrible, and very powerfully put. Bran in his trance heard Meera's cries and was too weak in his new powers to withdraw at once, and yet -- prompted to act, by the Raven -- was still strong enough to warg into Hodor through Wyllis. That made Wylllis into Hodor, and Hodor into a weapon.

Mirroring how the Children of Forest had created the first White Walker as a weapon, and from then on -- as a people -- had to live with that. Mirroring how the first Faceless Man had turned himself into a weapon (by the power of the Many-Faced God = Death), created more of his kind in exchange for wealth, and founded a rich city-state based in that symbiosis, complete with lawyered-up bankers. That's The Door, as well: what we pass through when we make great weapons of war, and turn people into weapons.

"Yet if you have to fight, win." I love that in this saga, our heroes are sinners. Not anti-heroes, but as real as heroes get -- and very real sinners. They do what they think they have to do to win: what it seems they must do, to survive, and save those they love, and uphold the good. And when they win, if they win, then they have to live with that.

[ChocButterfly]

Hey, I liked this episode!! I'm so sad about Hodor! It was freaky for me the implications, the whole time paradox and all that. And poor Bran, his face when he realized what he had done!

The revelation that it was the Children who created the White Walkers was very interesting. So they wanted to create a stronger being to beat men, and in doing so, the created an even worst enemy for them as well! How do they reproduce?? 

The part I didn't like about the Bran scene was that Root Guy knew that the Cold King (or whatever his name was) was coming, like any moment now. He tells Bran they must get the hell out of there, and yet, he takes Bran to another little reminiscing trip that had absolutetly nothing to do with their actual situation!! Why?? What for??!! It wasn't even an important memory, it wasn't the continuation of theTower story or any useful information about the White Walkers, so why on earth did Stupit Root Guy didn't make them leave inmediately??!! Uff, little things like that are the ones that irk me the most. I'm blaming Root Guy for Hodor and Summer's death, not Bran. He should have known better. Fucking Root Idiot.

I liked Sansa's speech to Littlefinger, but I don't know what's going to happen with that. Littlefinger is capable of leading the Night's Vale to serve Ramsey. I don't know why he'd do that, but he's just evil like that. I don't know if he could be trusted to help either. I don't even know if what he says about Blackfish is true. I hope what happens is that when Jon's army finally ends up fighting Ramsey the Night's of the Vale will come to their aid (to Jon's aid, that is). But I have no idea what will become of that. Also, where was everybody going, to rally the Northmen?

I'm kind of worried about Arya, I mean, it's obvious she's still Arya and it seems that those religious death dudes don't like playing games, so....what's going to happen to her when she finally reveals her true self? Will they just let her leave? Also, that play was an interesting insight of how news travel to Essos. 

What else was going on? Oh yes, the Other Red Woman. Tyrion is playing with fire (pun intended) with that one. Nothing good comes from dealing with religious extremists, if not, ask Cersei about it. Now I'm curious about what was the name Varys heard in the flames, was it the Lord of the Light's name or another god?

[Llywela]

22 minutes ago, ChocButterfly said:

The part I didn't like about the Bran scene was that Root Guy knew that the Cold King (or whatever his name was) was coming, like any moment now. He tells Bran they must get the hell out of there, and yet, he takes Bran to another little reminiscing trip that had absolutetly nothing to do with their actual situation!! Why?? What for??!! It wasn't even an important memory, it wasn't the continuation of theTower story or any useful information about the White Walkers, so why on earth did Stupit Root Guy didn't make them leave inmediately??!! Uff, little things like that are the ones that irk me the most. I'm blaming Root Guy for Hodor and Summer's death, not Bran. He should have known better. Fucking Root Idiot.

Root Dude was a seer. I'm wondering if he knew what was going to happen, or what had to happen, because he'd already seen that it had happened, or something like that. He's spent like a thousand years being one with a tree, learning his art. I'm betting he Saw something of how it played out in a vision and knew what had happened, and that's why he kept prevaricating when Bran asked questions about Wyllis being able to talk and past-Ned seeming to hear him - he had a timeline to preserve and couldn't tip Bran off or risk changing what had already happened, because space-time continuum. And maybe, like Hodor, he didn't know exactly when it would happen, or how, just that it would -  then, when it became clear that time had run out before he'd hoped it would and the end was coming right now, he knew that despite everything Bran needed to be in the past in Winterfell during the crisis, for Hodor's story to play out as it always had.

Damn, but the circular logic is making me dizzy now. Time travel stories give me brainache. But at least my lifetime of dedicated Doctor Who watching has prepared me for the attempt at puzzling it through!

[abcfsk]

Heh, I was afraid Sansa would say no to LF, then understand they needed the army and have to go alone to him to seek assistance. That would suck.

Also the Arya story may drag on but that was an entertaining play. Pretty well done! Effects and all! These guys must be getting all the job. Those work ethics over a silly parody. 

[ChocButterfly]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

Clearly that kind of link between past and future is not supposed to happen! It's also horrible because it was Bran's fault. All of it, all those deaths, were Bran's fault. He was bored and rebellious, so went into an unguided trance, got himself tagged by the White Walker, and thus allowed the Army of the Dead to find him and his hidden companions - directly leading to Summer and Hodor's deaths, plus Hodor's lifelong affliction, as well as the deaths of Root Dude and Fairy Girl. And now he has to live with that.

No, it was Root Guy's fault! He knew what could happen if the King touched Bran, yet he never directly warned him about it. He kept repeating platitudes about how if "you stay too long in the sea, you may drown" or whatever, but how about him being straight and telling Bran he could actually negatively impact the past? Or worst, that the White Walkers could see him and touch him, and get access to their location! You'd think that is a fairly important bit of information he'd want to be very clear about. 

And if Root Dude really knew what was going to happen with Hodor, and that's why he sent Bran to that last trip, well, then he's a double idiot, because he didn't really prepare Bran and it could have been so much easier if he had just given the kid more useful information. And they could all just have gotten killed. Plus, I 'm still a bit baffled at the time paradox, I don't see why it had to happen, if that's what Root Guy was looking for, the self fulfilling thing. I don't see how on earth is Meera going to be able to outrun the zombies. Bran weighs probably more than her. 

Oh, and another thing just ocurred to me, did Hodor really sacrifice himself or was it Bran inside of him till the end? Because that'd make things much worse if it was Bran inside of Hodor, he directly killed him to save his ass!

By the way, do you guys think the man who the Children were turning into a White Walker is the King? I think he is, I mean the actor is important, isn't he that doctor form Grey's Anatomy, who was also in Rome? And do you think he was a Stark? Because the Starks and Northmen are always saying how they are the descendants of the First Men, there could be a connection there. Maybe the king is Bran''s great, great, super great grandfather!! He looked more like Tormund, though, maybe he's related to him.

[Llywela]

I think there's enough culpability to share. Root Dude was a lousy teacher from the Gandalf/Dumbledore school of 'let me be as ambiguous as possible, so as to confuse and frustrate you in ways that make sense only to me'. And Bran deliberately chose to do something he absolutely knew he should not do, out of sheer boredom and rebellion. Recipe for disaster.

ETA I don't think the White Walker guy was Kevin McKidd - similar face, now that I come to think about it, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't him.

ETA again, forgot to mention a small but favourite moment: Edd realising that he has effectively become Lord Commander by default. Also: Tormund making googly eyes at Brienne again, and Brienne not having a clue what to do about it. She's spent her entire life being the butt of every man's joke. Is this the first time a man has actually fancied her? It probably is.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Llywela

[DirewolfPup]

Overall, I don't have much to add to everyone's analysis of this episode. Most of it was pretty clear cut and doesn't have much to discuss (minus the last bit).

Root Dude is to blame for the deaths of Summer and Hodor, but I also think that was part of the plan. I mean, he died too. It seemed like he knew what they were getting into in the first place, so I can't really blame him for that. Bran accelerated the plot by being a dumb kid and going at it alone. I put more blame on him. He did warg Hodor into action, so that's going to be a hard thing to live with for Meera and him. Meera was the one screaming "hold the door" so they could get away. She was fully aware of the situation and was completely willing to tell him to die to save the two of them. The way the whole thing went down was completely shitty and seemed avoidable. Summer just jumped into a pile of stabbing zombies. That's about as likely as her jumping straight into a fire. Dogs / Direwolves should have more instinct than what was portrayed in A Show. "She was sacrificing herself" is a cheap ploy, and I didn't care for it at all.

Edited May 23, 2016 by DirewolfPup

[Anothermi]

Loving the discussion. Seems to me that this episode was presented clearly enough that a lot of us picked up on points the writers were making. That could be seen as boring and predictable, but we also don't like when things are obtuse and confusing, so all in all, I liked the clarity of presentation.

Examples of what I am referring to:

- Sansa's strength and stupidity on display with her Little Finger interaction. Loved the first, shook my head about the second. She's her mother's daughter! I agree that she probably lied to Jon about where she got the Blackfish info because she did not want LF's help and the others would - logically - want the Armies of the Vale on their side. Think she was damned if she accepted his help and damned if she didn't. But I support the "keep your enemies close / make peace with your enemies" school of thought.

- Arya... agree that despite saying (and perhaps convincing herself) that she is No One, she is still Arya Stark. Made abundantly clear by her reaction to the play.

My further thoughts... I enjoyed the play's rhyming couplets, bawdy humour, distorted facts and focus on Tyrion and Tywin Lannister as the manipulators. (Tyrion pays the executioner to behead Ned and Tywin appoints Tyrion as Hand for Life! as well as giving him the prize of Sansa as his wife). Notable that the women (Cersei and Sansa) and children (Joffrey) are all non-culpable in this version and Tyrion is the overall villain.

I'm not sure A Man actually expects her to become No One. He agrees with the real A Girl that Arya is not one of them as there have not been any nobles become No One. Only real no bodys. He did, however, tell her that one way or another she would join the faces on the wall - another "no one" whether voluntary or not. Sounds like a spitball to me. She will not get credit (as we know it) even if she is pivotal to some event.

Interesting history of how Braavos came to be. "Nobodys" over threw Owners and overseers and established a Free city state where money is made by killing people for pay (and not asking questions). Killing is not free, but no one is forced to kill. Any one with wealth can have power rather than just those with noble blood? Any God (the many faced god) can be called upon to justify the money making/killing industry of Braavos?  It makes me wonder, again, who Jaquen was sent to kill in King's Landing, and by whose payment? (I suspect Illyrio of paying for Ned's death-by-Joffrey - facilitated by the many faced Jaquen who somehow influenced Little Finger - because he told Varys in the Dragon tombs that Ned should be killed. *cough, hack, ptoui*)

The Iron Islands - I also noted, with derision, that Urine Greyjoy (sounded like that to me *wink, wink*) planned to join with Dany. 

His big plan was to win the world - for the Iron Born - by bringing ships to her and her submitting to his typically inflated, male Greyjoy sense of his power/prowess. He may have seen a lot, but he learned nothing. He's what Theon was striving to be - until he he was broken into nothing. No wonder the rest of Westeros see the Iron Born as a joke. I was wrong about Yara not having ambitions, she just has the handicap of being a woman. But I also loved the sibling bonding. Break that cycle Yara and Theon.

Also of interest is the parallel of death/rebirth. Jon Snow... and every Iron Born king. Not encouraging. At least now "What is Dead May Never Die" makes sense. Not sure what I'm getting at here, just that the parallel jumped out at me.

Jorah - I also thought that he needs to find Melissandre who we were told cured Shireen. Or another Red Priestess, except they don't know about that power so he's going the wrong way (for the closest cure) and doesn't know about Mel either. She's a long way away - but chasing her might bring him back home to atone for bringing dishonour to his House and Father. Has he got one more sacrifice left in him?

Brienne and Edd - I, too, loved the little nods to these characters personal lives. Chuckled at Brienne's discomfiture with Thormond's in-her-face lust and admiration, and at Edd's sudden realization that he really has become Lord Commander - by rule of last (experienced) man standing.

12 hours ago, Llywela said:

Speaking of which, did Root Dude and Fairy Girl ever get names? Root Dude told Bran he was going to have to become him - by which I guess he meant the resident Seer of Westeros?

Pallas supplied names in her excellent post after yours, but I'll address this directly. I'm pretty sure that back at the end of S03 (or episode 9 which is the usual big battle ep), when the Bran clan arrived at the Tree-in-the-North and Jojen dies and the rest are brought inside by the "Fairy" fighters, we get a pan up to 1- the Three Eyed Raven that has been appearing in Bran's visions since S01, and then 2- the previous, less groomed, version of Root Dude. At some point it was also verbally confirmed that Root Dude WAS the Three Eyed Raven (Jojen explaining he was taking Bran north to the Three Eyed Raven?). Now, I tend to think since Root Dude was part of the Weirwood tree of the knowledge of "everything", he needed an avatar for his mind-travel and chose the three eyed raven who joined him in his learning sanctuary. Perhaps (spit ball) he even warged the raven to "see" events - after all he has been part of the root system for a thousand years of history - but more likely he chose it as a sign to those, who also had the sight, when he made contact. Jojen had the ability to join Bran in his visions. I'd guess HE learned that from Root Dude joining him in his - when he was ready. I know I've previously suggested that Jojen didn't have training... I've changed my mind.

The Fairy Girl - I think Elf Girl when I see her - has not been given a name out loud, but I believe many of us have settled on her/them being the fabled "Children of the Forest" (CHoF) of Old Nan's stories (and I believe Maester Luwin name dropped them to Bran saying if they ever existed they don't anymore). That belief got strengthened this episode by Talking Fairy Girl explaining to Bran that they created the White Walkers because they were at war with (Bran) and his kind who I assumed, along with ChocButterfly, were the First Men.

When we saw the ChoF creating the first White Walker I thought "Oh, maybe the WW really ARE part of the Good Guys.." but then remembered there aren't any Good Guys. Back on TWoP we briefly flirted with that possibility - or at least I did. Another frozen spitball, broken into shards.

Loved Pallas post (below) on this scene:

Quote

 

Mirroring how the Children of Forest had created the first White Walker as a weapon, and from then on -- as a people -- had to live with that. Mirroring how the first Faceless Man had turned himself into a weapon (by the power of the Many-Faced God = Death), created more of his kind in exchange for wealth, and founded a rich city-state based in that symbiosis, complete with lawyered-up bankers. That's The Door, as well: what we pass through when we make great weapons of war, and turn people into weapons.

"Yet if you have to fight, win." I love that in this saga, our heroes are sinners. Not anti-heroes, but as real as heroes get -- and very real sinners. They do what they think they have to do to win: what it seems they must do, to survive, and save those they love, and uphold the good. And when they win, if they win, then they have to live with that.

 

Other little items I noticed in the ChoF/Tree in the North scenes...

I, too, thought I recognized the actor being turned into the Night King. (Bran name dropped him). But I can't place where I've seen him before. However, the tool/weapon the Speaking ChoF used to create him looked very much like the Dragon Glass Sam et al found at the Fist of the 1st Men. Now that is what I call a real double edged sword! Creation and destruction in one tool. (It doesn't explain the effectiveness of Valerian steel though.)

The other thing I noticed was the last time the speaking ChoF used the exploding orb weapon, she squeezed it and it turned WW eye blue! Then it took a while to explode.

Spit balling that the CHoF are related to both Ice AND Fire. Need a bit of time to mull over the implications of that.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Anothermi
clean up and clarify

[ChocButterfly]

Hmmm, interesting, Anothermi, the ChoF being both ice and fire. The way they turned that guy into a WW was too easy, though, I wish we had seen more of a process, some sort of ritual, stones and stuff. Plus a sacrifice, they have always mentioned how blood magic works, a life for a life. Of course, we can say that the man did give his life, but it should've been a more spooky process, like whatever that witch did inside Kal Drogo' s tent. Now that was creepy!!

Urine Greyjoy, ha!! I thought the casting of that guy was very good, since he kind of looks like Theon. 

I really want to know how Bran and Meera are going to manage to stay alive with thousands of corpses following them and Bran cannot even walk. Perhaps they can borrow Littlefinger' s  teletransporter.

 Edit to add: did anyone notice the Red Priestess calling Dany someone who was promised or something? This season, in another episode, I think I remember Melissandre calling Jon the same thing. But she always referred to Stannis as the Chosen One. Does anyone know what they're talking about? Plus, does it have anything to do with the voice from the flames that Varys heard? I'm really, really curious about that voice.

Edited May 24, 2016 by ChocButterfly
Edit to add information.

[gingerella]

22 minutes ago, ChocButterfly said:

Edit to add: did anyone notice the Red Priestess calling Dany someone who was promised or something? This season, in another episode, I think I remember Melissandre calling Jon the same thing. But she always referred to Stannis as the Chosen One. Does anyone know what they're talking about?

Choc, Mel thought Stannis was The One Who Was Promised...but she realized she was wrong and she thinks it's actually Jon. Now this new Red Priestess thinks the same of Dany. I reckon at some point its both of them combined maybe, which would explain why one sees Dany and one sees Jon?

[Anothermi]

20 minutes ago, ChocButterfly said:

Edit to add: did anyone notice the Red Priestess calling Dany someone who was promised or something? This season, in another episode, I think I remember Melissandre calling Jon the same thing. But she always referred to Stannis as the Chosen One. Does anyone know what they're talking about? Plus, does it have anything to do with the voice from the flames that Varys heard? I'm really, really curious about that voice.

Not sure we have been told yet what being Chosen or Promised by the Lord of Light means. I think the terms are interchangeable. Both Davos and Varys caught the callous opportunism of the two priestesses to label someone as THE ONE. At least Kinvara (named dropped 1st Priestess of the Lord of Light) admits that the priests and priestesses are human and therefor make mistakes.  Mel does too, but more reluctantly.

As for the voice Varys heard... agree that inquiring minds need to know! Varys told the story to Tyrion around the Blackwater Bay battle - when he had the scorcerer who took his parts "in-a-box". I don't think he told what he heard. He's always been less than eager to tell that whole story. If I can, I'll try to review the scene.

I noticed the Priestess Kinvara called him Lord Varys even though we know Varys says he isn't one. Does she know something he doesn't? Like perhaps he had some "King's Blood" like Gendry?

[Anothermi]

3 hours ago, Anothermi said:

As for the voice Varys heard... agree that inquiring minds need to know! Varys told the story to Tyrion around the Blackwater Bay battle - when he had the scorcerer who took his parts "in-a-box". I don't think he told what he heard. He's always been less than eager to tell that whole story. If I can, I'll try to review the scene.

Sorry for the vanity quote but I found the scene... and no, he didn't say what he heard.

S03E04: And Now His Watch Has Ended

Varys (while prying open the crate): Before all this nastiness I was going to tell you the story of how I was cut. Do you want to hear it still?

Tyrion (who really wants to know if his sister was behind the attempt on his life at the Battle of Blackwater): I don't know. Do I?

Varys: As a boy I traveled with a troupe of actors through the Free Cities. One day, in Mir, a certain man made my master an offer that was too tempting to refuse. I feared the man meant to use me as I'd heard some men use small boys, but what he wanted was far worse... He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a hooked blade he sliced me, root and stem, chanting all the while. He burned my parts in a brazier. The flames turned blue and I heard a voice answer his call. I still dream of that night. Not of the sorcerer. Not of his blade. I dream of the voice from the flames. Was it a God?... a Demon?... a conjurers trick? I don't know. But the sorcerer called and a voice answered. And ever since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. But you can see why I was eager to aid in your fight against Stannis and his Red Priestess. A symbolic revenge, of sorts.

Tyrion: Yes... I have a need for actual revenge... against the actual person who tried to have me killed. Which will require a degree of influence which...

Varys: You do not possess at the moment. But influence is largely a matter of patience I find. Once I had served the sorcerers purpose, he threw me out of his house to die. I... resolved to live, to spite him. I begged, I sold what parts of my body remained to me. I became an excellent thief and soon learned that the contents of a man's letters were more valuable than the contents of a man's purse. Step by step, one distasteful task after another, I made my way from the slums of Mir to the Small Council Chamber. Influence grows like a weed. I tended mine patiently, until it's tendrils reached from the Red Keep all the way across to the far side of the world where I managed to wrap them around something very special... <takes the lid off the wooden crate revealing the sorcerer>

                                                          ------------------------------------------------

I think Tyrion may have listen more closely than I thought at the time.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

So, uh, I need to admit to my fellow brethren that I totally did NOT get that First Children made the first WW because I only sort of watched that scene because I am squeamish. I saw the one fairy child stab that guy slowly and half looked but I did see his eyes go blue, I guess it was late and maybe I drank too much grog?  Anyway, this who'd thing with them "making" the first WWs still makes no sense. I mean, did they make a bunch and how did they procreate? Is it important for A Show to tell us that? I feel very WTF about this new twist because it doesn't resonate as being in tune with A Story.  I guess it's just soooo out there with the time travel and zombie making stuff. And then there's that issue of Summer jumping into a pile of stabbing zombies when he could have easily ran up with Bran and protected him...I just feel very frustrated with this right now...

Overall, I enjoyed the first three epis so far and this one lost me totally. I feel also like A Show is trying to move HUGE GIGANTIC story pieces forward in massive leaps and we are missing a lot of background that might make this all make more sense. That has always been my gripe with A Show...only 10 episodes to cover huge book content (I saw this having only glanced from afar at those books across a bookstore room and they appear very thick)... After S1, why couldn't they expand their epi season to cover more details that maybe would help make more sense of what is no doubt a huge story on paper.

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

Anyway, this who'd thing with them "making" the first WWs still makes no sense. I mean, did they make a bunch and how did they procreate? Is it important for A Show to tell us that?

Time to remember back to S04E04: OathKeeper < why yes, I did have to look it up >

Lone scraggly haired WW emerges on horse back from the mist. He is carrying a barely swaddled baby. The Craster baby Rast (think that was who) saw him take when Rast went outside - of the fresh Hell that the Craster house had become after the renegade Night's Watch killed Mormont and taken over -  to take a piss. 'nuff of that memory.

The WW, horse and baby ride up to a circle of ice "pillars".  In the middle is some kind of Ice Altar and the baby is laid upon it.  A dark figure slowly breaks from a dark line of others and walks toward the altar, lifts the baby and touches it's cheek with his pointy black (ish) fingernail and the baby's eyes turn blue. The lone figure has a crown of ice - and blue eyes as well.

And what did we see in this episode?

The CHoF approach a Weirwood tree encircled by stone pillars in a pin wheel design*. The Tree has red leaves, but the "eyes" of the face appear to be bleeding. There is a man, bound to the tree and gagged. After a con-fab, one of the ChoF approaches him and slowly and gently pushes what looks (to me at least) like a shard of Dragon Glass through the middle of the man's chest while he screams through his gag.  His eyes turn blue. Bran awakes back under the tree and asks the CHoF why they did that.

She tells him: We were at war. We were being slaughtered. Our Sacred trees cut down. We needed to defend ourselves.

Bran asks: From whom?

She replies: From you. From Men.

*I just noticed the pin wheel design while re-watching to catch exactly what the CHoF told Bran when he asked why they did that. Then I remembered the pin wheel design of horse parts at the Fist of the 1st Men and the arrangement of human body parts in the very 1st episode where the little girl was skewered to a tree and had blue eyes. We even speculated back then that this might have been a ritual to make White Walkers. I spitball that we were right and this is how the White Walkers "procreate". They re-create the ritual used by the Children of the Forest. The CHoF would have had to create a few to be effective against the First Men, but I don't think they were great at capturing victims, so maybe they taught the newly made WW how to create more themselves?

----------------------------------------------

Further question arising from this... The CHoF spoke of the sacred Trees. These would be the Weirwood trees. The Northerners worship the Old Gods via the Weirwood Trees as well. How did the war against the CHoF come about if they worship the same Gods? Was this before the Wall was built?

We've seen the WW creation ritual take place in a number of locations since the 1st episode - now that we know what we were seeing. The target just has to be alive when it happens. And it could be possible that the baby White Walkers grow like icicles do - until they are tall and sturdy (hee, hang them up in a damp cave that freezes at night!). The ones who become WW also get the ability to warg the dead - en mass if need be. In Bran's vision, he walked among the zombonis and they ignored him until the Night King turned his head and saw him. Then all the zombonis turned their heads to look at him.

----------------------------------------------

One last thought. If creating a monster for protection could go so horribly wrong for the not-so-evil CHoF? Look out Qyburn and Cersei!

Edited May 24, 2016 by Anothermi
spelling, grammer, the usual

[gingerella]

anothermi, I am feeling stupid...

[DirewolfPup]

Well done Anothermi!  I had forgotten about the pinwheel of dead body parts from all those seasons ago. As soon as you mentioned it... a lightbulb moment. It's all starting to make sense now!  I do wonder why only men can be WW. Is this sexism? Is that just all Craester offered? Can women not become WW?

[gingerella]

I did notice the pinwheel this time, but in S1E1 I didn't notice, maybe I didn't look closely because it was rather gruesome.  I do wonder where these giant spiders are though...Old Nan made such a point of them in her story to Bran...

[Anothermi]

You don't remember the pinwheel in S01E01 because it wasn't there. Someone posted a screen grab in the WW thread I started on TWoP. The body parts were arranged in a circle with a line through it. Given that it was the 1st episode and even the WW were just prototypes of what we've got now I think we can still carry the concept of "creation ritual" from that. The ice pillars around an alter were in a circle, so not a pinwheel either. But there still is the theme of ritual and we saw the end result in the Craster Baby's eyes turning blue. That was the first LIVE person whose eyes did that. That's where my spitball is coming from.

I keep thinking we saw some spiders at HardHome, but I may have added them in my imagination.

[gingerella]

Thanks anothermi! I wonder if the original pin wheel formed some sort of energy field because of it's design to catch wind/power? Maybe laid out like that caused the CHoF to gather all their magical powers and channel them into creating that first WW from a regular man?

Remember in the scene way back when Sam was north of the Wall and he saw the WWs coming and they walked past him and basically ignored him? He had dragon glass on his person at that time, didn't he?  And were those that passed him all WWs, or where they the dead folks too? I remember dead looking horses which is why I ask. I guess I'm confused as to when the dead folks show up. The WWs all have blue eyes, right? And they seem to not be as "dead" looking as the dead army folks...So I'm wondering if WWs live with that army of zombonies/zomponies following them around all the time...This all gives me a headache...

[Pallas]

The Varys story, the White Walker rituals: wonderful scholarship, Anothermi! Thank you. 

15 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Further question arising from this... The CHoF spoke of the sacred Trees. These would be the Weirwood trees. The Northerners worship the Old Gods via the Weirwood Trees as well. How did the war against the CHoF come about if they worship the same Gods?

Possibility: following the battle of the Children vs. The First Men, the less civilized victors -- Men -- appropriated the religion of the vanquished, along with everything else. Think ancient Romans and the Greeks. Then the First Men got busy building a wall (and asked the Free Folk to pay for it).  

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

I wonder if the original pin wheel formed some sort of energy field because of it's design to catch wind/power? Maybe laid out like that caused the CHoF to gather all their magical powers and channel them into creating that first WW from a regular man?

Cool idea! To me the pinwheel suggests a swastika, but it's much more resonant to see it as a natural power amplifier.

On 5/23/2016 at 7:20 PM, Anothermi said:

I'm not sure A Man actually expects her to become No One. He agrees with the real A Girl that Arya is not one of them as there have not been any nobles become No One. Only real no bodys. He did, however, tell her that one way or another she would join the faces on the wall - another "no one" whether voluntary or not. Sounds like a spitball to me. She will not get credit (as we know it) even if she is pivotal to some event.

I agree. Arya's is another tale of a person's being made into a weapon. But who's using who? I suspect A Man is training Arya for an assignment that only Someone can perform. Her success will, with justice, get her expelled from the House, but changed in some way ultimately more valuable to her than the Black Martial Arts.

Is that A Man's whole purpose with Arya: to be the final male mentor in this odd, sequential apprenticeship of hers, where she has passed from Jon to Serio to her comrades in captivity to the Breathren-Without-Bread to the Hound to A Man? Or has A Man been waiting for a particular incorrigible candidate to undertake this mission? One where she will Kill the Girl and become, not A Woman, but one woman: Lady Arya Stark.

Meera must be heading south to Castle Black at last. It would be incredibly cheap if she and Bran encountered Uncle Benjen on the way -- especially as (as one of us said) it makes every kind of sense that Watchers on missions north of the wall often simply disappeared. But sometimes cheap is shiny. 

Littlefinger: lied lied lied about Blackfish having taken back the Riverlands. He may be disappointed that Sansa isn't with Brienne when he and his armies intercept her on the way. Or he may simply have wanted to separate Sansa from her protector, in which case, his plan is already a success. What's new. At least I get some mordant kicks from the peerless way he goes about his business. I'm worse than Sansa: I don't want him dead; I almost want a few more of him. But no, I guess that would be all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out, with a falcon.

[Anothermi]

On 2016-05-24 at 10:29 AM, gingerella said:

Remember in the scene way back when Sam was north of the Wall and he saw the WWs coming and they walked past him and basically ignored him? He had dragon glass on his person at that time, didn't he?  And were those that passed him all WWs, or where they the dead folks too? I remember dead looking horses which is why I ask. I guess I'm confused as to when the dead folks show up. The WWs all have blue eyes, right? And they seem to not be as "dead" looking as the dead army folks...So I'm wondering if WWs live with that army of zombonies/zomponies following them around all the time...This all gives me a headache...

I've been grappling with that same scene, Ging, and with the same thought about the Dragon Glass on Sam. May be it was the presence of the Dragon Glass that made the WW  not go after him - or maybe it was his lack of being a threat? I'm still of two minds about that. The others not on (dead) horseback were definitely Zombonies. That scene was after the former Night's Watch Zomboni tried to kill Commander Mormont and Jon killed him by throwing the lamp at him. So we knew of the un-dead army ... just not how many - until that scene with Sam (lone carrier of the subliminal story message... Book Learning Is Good!).

Being followed around by a Zomboni Army would make a great Blackadder series! (Great Brit comedy with Rowan Atkins, Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie - ludicrous). I just can't think of that possibility without laughing. It's like having a pet dog who is just waiting for your attention... "Kill now?...Now?... Kill now?"

On 2016-05-24 at 6:20 PM, Pallas said:

Possibility: following the battle of the Children vs. The First Men, the less civilized victors -- Men -- appropriated the religion of the vanquished, along with everything else. Think ancient Romans and the Greeks. Then the First Men got busy building a wall (and asked the Free Folk to pay for it).  

Thanks for  leap-frogging on my spit-balls. At first I questioned your distinction between the Free Folk and the First Men, but now I can see that there might be factions within the First Men and the "winners" would end up as Northerners and the "losers" would end up Free Folk. The Northerner faction would be willing to agree to combine with southern Westerosi (not first men) to oppose the White Walkers and the Free Folk would not. That sounds like a reasonable explanation of how one side ended up south of the wall and one north.

I agree. Arya's is another tale of a person's being made into a weapon. But who's using who? I suspect A Man is training Arya for an assignment that only Someone can perform. Her success will, with justice, get her expelled from the House, but changed in some way ultimately more valuable to her than the Black Martial Arts.  << I'm feeling this as "Blood" Martial Arts at the moment >>

Is that A Man's whole purpose with Arya: to be the final male mentor in this odd, sequential apprenticeship of hers, where she has passed from Jon to Serio to her comrades in captivity to the Breathren-Without-Bread to the Hound to A Man? Or has A Man been waiting for a particular incorrigible candidate to undertake this mission? One where she will Kill the Girl and become, not A Woman, but one woman: Lady Arya Stark.  << YES to this! Great spit ball.>>

Meera must be heading south to Castle Black at last. It would be incredibly cheap if she and Bran encountered Uncle Benjen on the way -- especially as (as one of us said) it makes every kind of sense that Watchers on missions north of the wall often simply disappeared. But sometimes cheap is shiny. << Oooooh. Shiny!  My Precious... >>

Littlefinger: lied lied lied about Blackfish having taken back the Riverlands. He may be disappointed that Sansa isn't with Brienne when he and his armies intercept her on the way. Or he may simply have wanted to separate Sansa from her protector, in which case, his plan is already a success. What's new. At least I get some mordant kicks from the peerless way he goes about his business. I'm worse than Sansa: I don't want him dead; I almost want a few more of him. But no, I guess that would be all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out, with a falcon.

<< Little Finger may have appeared off guard, but that's his game, and he is good at it. Never trust a man with little fingers. All I knew was that Sansa made me go "YESSSSSS!!!" at the start of that scene and "NOOOOOOOOO!" at the end. >>

Edited May 30, 2016 by Anothermi

[janjan]

Quote

Pallas: Then the First Men got busy building a wall (and asked the Free Folk to pay for it).  

Hee! Pallas, you are too funny!!

I agree that we need more LF. Slimeball he may be but he's about the most fascinating character. Oh, how I miss his early conversations with Varys -- totally at odds and totally understanding each other, perhaps even admiring each other a bit. Well ok, maybe just a little bit.

Interesting thought that A Man has had a special mission in mind for Arya all along. It seems that he sought her out -- what was he doing in that cage cart on the way to the wall back in S1? Surely someone as magical as he could get himself out if he wanted to. [Note correct nominative case there.]  Perhaps he was testing Arya to see if she would free a stranger -- testing her innate goodness, that is. Whatever the mission is, it had better be good to justify inflicting the House of Black and White on us for all this time.

[gingerella]

Brethren, clarification please...since Winter Is Finally Fucking Coming...I know what WWs are, but remember Wights? Are those the dead zombonis or are they something else? I am hella confused right now because I thought that wights were something different, in which case how did THEY come to be? 

[Pallas]

7 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Being followed around by a Zomboni Army makes would make a great Blackadder series! (Great Brit comedy with Rowan Atkins, Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie - ludicrous). I just can't thing of that possibility without laughing. It's like having a pet dog who is just waiting for your attention... "Kill now?...Now?... Kill now?"

Laughing away at the image, like a gif but with audio

7 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Little Finger may have appeared off guard, but that's his game, and he is good at it. Never trust a man with little fingers. All I knew was that Sansa made me go "YESSSSSS!!!" at the start of that scene and "NOOOOOOOOO!" at the end. >>

So true. And I loved -- loved -- her demanding that Littlefinger confront and name the ways she may have been violated. Not do what the world tends to do about men's crimes upon women: look away and murmur "How awful," while inwardly, pushing these women beyond the pale of what we can bear to embrace and call our own. Evade our own guilt (men) or fear (women) by quarantining the victim, separating her from us, or at least, separating what we feel from who she has become.

Littlefinger off his guard: Aidan Gillen and he were great in portraying that. "Then I will die now." Perfectly done, all the conflicting emotions he/they portrayed at once...all sleight-of-hand while hopping on one foot as he re-calculated angles, on the spot.

7 hours ago, janjan said:

I agree that we need more LF. Slimeball he may be but he's about the most fascinating character. Oh, how I miss his early conversations with Varys -- totally at odds and totally understanding each other, perhaps even admiring each other a bit. Well ok, maybe just a little bit.

I was feeling the same, janjan, about missing the Varys/Littlefinger interaction. "Totally at odds and totally understanding each other." Do you think Littlefinger sees all the way to the end of Varys's game? -- that Varys has a larger aim beyond accumulating influence, as he long ago explained to Tyrion and Anothermi reminded us?  And what of Varys's idea that Littlefinger has a blind side (insofar as he remains human, which may be touch-and-go, at best)?  Is it really the Tully girls, as we speculated back then? Or just his grievance, his need for vengeance?

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

Brethren, clarification please...since Winter Is Finally Fucking Coming...I know what WWs are, but remember Wights? Are those the dead zombonis or are they something else?

I think the Wights are zombonies. I don't recall the context in which we heard the term, but that was my impression. Earlier this season, in the Completely Unspoiled Spec thread, we were talking about what we actually know about Walkers and Wights: "fuck-all" was my premise, before taking a stab...

[Anothermi]

11 hours ago, Pallas said:

Then the First Men got busy building a wall (and asked the Free Folk to pay for it). 

 

8 hours ago, janjan said:

Hee! Pallas, you are too funny!!

Hee! Feeling a little sheepish that I missed this... D'oh!  Thanks, janjan, for pointing it out. It is a testament to the strength of my self-imposed embargo on thoughts of he-who-whall-not-be-named that I missed it. Good one just the same, Pallas.

I do think my spit ball (due to not recognizing the joke) still has some validity. I think it was you and I - back on TWoP - who lobbed a few spitballs about how the rift between the Wildlings/Free Folk and the Westerosi began. The one I spat as a result of not getting  your joke is a follow through on those older ones.

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

remember Wights? Are those the dead zombonis or are they something else?

Gingerella, I too, think that the wights are the zombonis. It may have been a "helpful" bookwalker early on in TWoP who posted the term - however briefly - but I no longer remember where I learned that word.  I/we seem to always have preferred Pallas' name for them - zombonis (and don't forget zom-ponies!). There's only been the Ice Guys (WW) and the Walking Dead guys (our zombonis) since S01E01. No inbetweeners... unless you count Craster?

[KungFuBunny]

The White Walkens are created then right, they don't procreate so to speak? We've seen the Craster baby changed and the little girl in season 1 episode 1 - turned. Yet in all new scenes, we don't see any White Walken toddlers roaming about. Do they have a home base/camp? Do they "age" or do they stay the same age as when they were turned? Since there are White Walken horses...are we going to see White Walken Summer Direwolf?

Hodor was basically Bran's Uber...Meera isn't gonna be able to drag him too far with White Walkens up her ass.

I wonder if there is any significance in the actress who Arya/Girl is supposed to kill. Like maybe she was Lady Lyanna's Lady In Waiting. Even though, Arya no longers chants her list aloud - I think she's chanting them in her brain.

Is Gendry going to come back?

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, KungFuBunny said:

Is Gendry going to come back?

You're asking us, the Unsullied? :D I hope Gendry never comes back, personally, because that way I'll be able to imagine him having found a safe, quiet place to take refuge for the rest of his life. If he comes back, he'll just end up dying horribly. That's how this show rolls.

They're White Walkers, rather than Walkens, I thought? How the transformed babies turn into mahoosive dudes on zomponies I'm sure we'd all quite like to know! There's gotta be a zombie creche somewhere, surely.

I'm wondering if there's any significance to Arya's actress mark at all, or if the whole thing is just another test, since A Man and his invisible brethren seem to love testing her. Sending her to view a play all about her father's demise was not a coincidence, that much I'm sure. Whatever reason someone may or may not have for wanting that actress dead, Jaqen sent Arya to watch that play to see how much Arya Stark remains in her, I'm certain of that.

Watching this episode, I was struck again by how fast people can move on this show when they have to - Sansa and Brienne got to Castle Black between one episode at the next, when a few seasons ago they'd have been wandering around in the woods for an entire season before reaching their goal, and then here we saw Littlefinger having got from the Vale to Moletown in what must be record time...although Littlefinger does at least already have a history of being able to teleport around the realm at will! On the flip side, I reckon by the time Sam gets Gilly to his ancestral home and persuades his family to look after her and then sets off again to Maester school and then actually becomes a Maester...well, by the time he's done all that, at the rate he's going, the show will be over and either the entire realm will be frozen or there'll be dragons all over the shop!

[ChocButterfly]

Gendry is still rowing! 

Quote

 I hope Gendry never comes back, personally, because that way I'll be able to imagine him having found a safe, quiet place to take refuge for the rest of his life. If he comes back, he'll just end up dying horribly. That's how this show rolls.

OMG, this!!!  Remember Rickon? I'm so pissed after 4 seasons they show him again only to have him captured by....Ramsey!!! Llywela is right, leave Gendry , never to be seen again, otherwise, it'll be just to fuck him up!

I saw the episode again, noticed a couple of things. The guy that gets turned into a White Walker still looks like the doctor from Grey's Anatomy. Although I didn't see him in the credits, so it's not him. They changed the ChOF, I don't know why. I wasn't sure, but when I saw that little elf this season I was confused. She didn't look like the one from before. This one looked weird. I looked at that scene from the other season and I was right, the former elf looked like a child and sounded like a child. This one looks more like a troll.

Another thing, I always watch with subtitles, but yesterday it was in Spanish. In Spanish, Bran called the Night King, the "White King". Also, for those who speak Spanish, Sansa adressed Littlefinger as "tu", instead of "usted".  I found that curious, since I expected them to a dress each other with more formality. That means Sansa and Littlefinger are in closer terms. 

[Anothermi]

3 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

I saw the episode again, noticed a couple of things. The guy that gets turned into a White Walker still looks like the doctor from Grey's Anatomy. Although I didn't see him in the credits, so it's not him. They changed the ChOF, I don't know why. I wasn't sure, but when I saw that little elf this season I was confused. She didn't look like the one from before. This one looked weird. I looked at that scene from the other season and I was right, the former elf looked like a child and sounded like a child. This one looks more like a troll.

Good catch Choc. I checked that scene and it is quite a difference. I'd guess that they thought viewers wouldn't remember (or look back - which makes no sense as so many GoT viewers are fanatic.... uh, dedicated).

But you will also have noticed (as I did) that Root Dude looked completely different then too. I also noted, in that scene, one of the "child"-looking CHoFs told Meera that "the First Men called us The Children but we were born long before that." It was what made us unsullied realize we finally were seeing The Children of the Forest that Old Nan had talked about. Because it was a last minute, last episode reveal ... and because TPTB knew they wouldn't be coming back to this part of the story for 2 *bleeping* SEASONS! ... they chose to make the CHoF child-like so us dolts would be able to make the connection. This has happened with the WW who morphed quite a bit since season one. I don't quite see this version of the CHoF as trolls, but more as being like leaves or branches. Kind of a mash up of both flora AND fauna. These characters seem pretty solidly part of the green segments of Gingerella's Rubics Cube Spitball/theorum.

3 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

Another thing, I always watch with subtitles, but yesterday it was in Spanish. In Spanish, Bran called the Night King, the "White King". Also, for those who speak Spanish, Sansa adressed Littlefinger as "tu", instead of "usted".  I found that curious, since I expected them to a dress each other with more formality. That means Sansa and Littlefinger are in closer terms. 

That is another interesting piece of information. Again I went back and listened more carefully to what Bran said and he clearly said "Night King". Perhaps it's a translation error - I don't really know how subtitles are created, but I have read some ridiculously wrong subtitling just from English (spoken with a regional accent) to English which makes me think subtitling is often an underfunded afterthought. It sure can make discussions between viewers with different mother tongues ... problematic to say the least.

But as far as the use of "tu" between Sansa and Littlefinger? That seems like an accurate representation. English may not make the distinction verbally, but we've seen Littlefinger kiss Sansa once or twice; we've seen Sansa lie for Littlefinger; and we've seen Littlefinger save Sansa by pushing her Aunt Lyssa (his wife) through the moon door. Until he left her with the Boltons she had put her faith in him to be her protector. She chose him over Brienne at the Inn. There wasn't any formality between them by that time. She felt close to him. I even thought she may have been infatuated with him. She has good reason to be so angry with him... he betrayed her trust.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Anothermi
clean up and clarify - as usual

[Pallas]

Re-watching now -- is it possible that Yara and Theon have done more than sail away with the Iron fleet? Maybe they've borrowed something else from their uncle, and are now headed straight to Dany?

Dany and Jorah reconciled at last. Except that now he's headed god knows where in search of a cure, while back in Mereen is a Red Priestess -- like the one who once healed Shireen.