Acting, or at least a facsimile of it...

[caracas1914]

Kevin Mchale, that boy does have a facility with a snarky line I tell ya. Highly underrated comic skills.

[Myrna123]

Kevin Mchale, that boy does have a facility with a snarky line I tell ya.

And a funny face, too!  At the end of the Downtown number in the last ep, Kurt is watching Rachel pull up in her limo (TOWN CAR!) with a great WTF expression on his face, and Artie has the goofiest, "HAY RACHEL! HAY-AY!" look on his face.  It makes me laugh every time I think about it.

[caracas1914]

Usually I'm not a fan of Darren Criss' thespian skills, but anyone who can say..

"Fratboys physical.com isn't going to judge me!" 

with a straight face deserves all the acting awards.  

[indeed]

FOX Studios' 2014 Emmy Awards Campaign "planned submissions":

"GLEE"

Comedy Actress - Lea Michele

Comedy Supporting Actor - Chris Colfer, Blake Jenner, Kevin McHale, Chord Overstreet

Comedy Supporting Actress - Jane Lynch, Naya Rivera

Comedy Guest Actor - Tim Conway, Mike O'Malley

Comedy Guest Actress - Kristin Chenoweth, Dot-Marie Jones, Shirley MacLaine, Gwyneth Paltrow, Romy Rosemont, June Squibb

Source

Since the list might change, maybe they're waiting to sneak in "Comedy Actor - Darren Criss". I mean, Chord and Blake are listed for supporting, so why not?!

Edited April 25, 2014 by indeed

[caracas1914]

maybe they're waiting to sneak in

Why "sneak" it in ?   LOL.

Good to see that FOX acknowledged the stellar work that Romy Rosemont did on Glee, even it was dramatic as opposed to a comedy turn.

[indeed]

To avoid hate mail/tweets?

It's just weird IMO DC didn't get included when CC and BJ are.

[Higgs]

DC wasn't included because RM would have nominated him for "Comedy Actor", only, lest "supporting" be construed by critics and industry professionals as a diminution of his universally acclaimed starring role, but was prevented from doing so due to a clause in MM's contract. (The rumor that Lea and Chris would have left the show as a consequence has been thoroughly and definitively debunked as a dastardly, deliberate deception.)

Edited April 25, 2014 by Higgs

[CherithCutestory]

 Darren Criss wasn't submitted last year either. Although he did later submit himself in the supporting category.

 

Blake was submitted last year too but as a guest. I would guess that Fox has plans to try to cast or do something with Blake down the line and want to keep him on the hook.

Edited April 25, 2014 by CherithCutestory

[indeed]

"Universally acclaimed"?

How I Met Your Mother--from the same studio--only has one of the stars of the ensemble listed as the lead. Don't see why it would be such a slight for DC to be listed as supporting that the studio would rather not list him at all.

[caracas1914]

"Universally acclaimed"?

 

Translation:  tween girls reviews on acting.

[heyerchick]

There was media/critic debate a few years back, when Glee was still pulling the occasional well-written episode out of its ass, that Chris Colfer should be nominated in 'lead actor' categories. Chris, bless him, was quick to call that inappropriate, and to respect Matt Morrison's status. 

 

Media/critic debate about Darren Criss being nominated in 'lead actor' categories? Zero. There's no mainstream critical acclaim for Criss's average acting, period. 

 

But the laughable inclusion of Chord Overstreet does make the second consecutive FOX snub of Darren's acting that much more amusing.

[CherithCutestory]

Cory Montieth was submitted as supporting last year. If Cory wasn't a lead then Darren isn't. And if Matthew Morrison's contract forbids it then if it wasn't a snub to put Cory there it isn't one to put Darren there.

[caracas1914]

The FOX snub was not submitting Darren when they submitted fucking Chord Overstreet.

That's right, Chord " Let me mumble my lines" Overstreet .

[camussie]

My guess is for both Blake and Chord, Fox sees the potential for them in other Fox series down the line, so it is their way of showing that they like them.  I actually think Blake is a pretty good actor (the catishing story was crap but I thought he did what he could with it and i thought he was really good in the dyslexia episode) but they gave him nothing to do this season.  I would bet that is because a lot of the story they had planned for him was with Cory so that Finn/Ryder would echo Will/Finn.  If my guess is correct, Finn's passing would have wiped out any story Ryder had in early episodes and then every one of the sophomores were side-lined starting in 507.

Edited April 25, 2014 by camussie

[Higgs]

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/4353-acting-or-at-least-a-facsimile-of-it/?p=48804

Everything I wrote was ironic satire, of which no "Glee" actor was a target, and every assertion was a complete fabrication. (It was all supposed to be obvious.)

I just watched the wonderful "Six By Sondheim" documentary on HBO. Darren was in it as a member of the trio singing "Opening Doors" from "Merrily We Roll Along", and he was charmingly excellent.

http://popwatch.ew.com/2013/11/22/six-by-sondheim-darren-criss-jeremy-jordan-america-ferrera/"]http://popwatch.ew.com/2013/11/22/six-by-sondheim-darren-criss-jeremy-jordan-america-ferrera/

Edited April 26, 2014 by Higgs

[caracas1914]

"he was charmingly excellent."

Ok , now I get your ironic satire. That is funny.

[Cylelle]

I thought this last year, because the list of submissions seemed off then too, but I sort of wonder if Fox canvasses their actors as to who wants to be put forward each year and if they don't get a response just leave them off the list since they can always put themselves forward separately anyway.  If Darren and/or his management team aren't on the ball enough to respond to that sort of query from the production company by whatever deadline they may give then it might explain why he gets left off the official submission list only to submit himself later.

[coolbeans3131]

Darren's management team seems to be very on the ball to me. I doubt that is the reason he was left off two years in a row. Darren submitted himself last year, so he apparently cares about the submission.

[caracas1914]

If Darren and/or his management team aren't on the ball enough to respond to that sort of query from the production company

Since when has Darren's team ever been slow on the ball on any  PR for him?

Seriously.

 

It seems many have a hard time accepting that perhaps FOX chose not to submit him.  It happens.

[fakeempress]

From the Media thread:

 

 

No, I didn't expect Kurt to be flirty with Elliot (I guess other than their whole kiss on the cheek selfie thing).  I was commenting on those who swore there were some amazing sparks and heat between them because in my opinion, I didn't see that not just because Kurt was never really flirting with Elliot as I would expect but because again, Chris seemed disinterested through most of their interactions.

Like I didn't even buy this "best friend I've had since I moved here" line he said to Blaine because I never bought this close friendship with him and Elliot because in most of their scenes Kurt just seemed sort of checked out. Again I'm not saying Chris was horrible or awful in any of his scenes. Just, exactly what I noted above, that after awhile it felt like he was doing the minimum to get by because it seemed (again just my interpretation so surely subjective) like he'd checked out. That is all...

 

With the caveat this is subjective, I didn't see that at all in the Elliot interaction. I won't rave about any super chemistry, but for me Chris and Adam L. had a nice comfortable chemistry on screen - as the characters' relationship itself evolved from antagonistic, through band partners, to friends with the selfie scene. I don't think they were friends from the start, nor it was meant this way. Kurt saying he was his best friend since he moved to NY (that excludes people he knew from before such as Rachel) - did we ever see any other just friends Kurt made to compare? British Adam was more of a LI Kurt couldn't get himself to fall for for real.  

 

This may not matter to those not following the actors' social media and Glee bts, but even there Chris was enthusiastic about his scenes with Adam L. Granted, for the staging of I Believe in a Thing Called Love, it was also because of the pole bc he loves props, but it's still an Elliot-related scene and by Chris's own account he wasn't in the least bored there.

 

I'm inclined to think it may be a preference for a specific type of acting or a specific vision for the character that plays into seeing Chris as bored / checked out in his scenes with Adam Lambert in particular. 

Edited December 25, 2014 by fakeempress

[Hana Chan]

Chris made some very interesting acting choices in his scenes with Blaine post-reconciliation because he didn't have Kurt going back to gazing at Blaine with dewy-eyed adoration and willing to just accept things as they were. His vision of Kurt was a young man who's been around the block once or twice, had his heart seriously broken, tried to moved on and while Kurt took Blaine back, it didn't negate his past experiences. For Chris, Kurt had serious reservations about his relationship despite accepting the proposal and trust was never completely re-established. And his Kurt wasn't willing to give up his individual accomplishments any longer.

 

It was a much more nuanced and mature view of Kurt than we had seen previously and it worked when you considered the character and his history in total. What made it discordant to some might have been how it contrasted with Darren's less nuanced performance of Blaine, where he often failed (as I see it) to keep Blaine's total experiences in mind. I often find that with Blaine, there's no consistency in his behavior from episode to episode. Part of that is certainly due to the writing, but a lot of it falls on Darren who seems to have amnesia in what Blaine does from one episode to the next. One minute he's lusting over Sam and singing love songs with the same fervor that he showed in is songs sung for Kurt, and the next he's talking about forever with Kurt. It's not a surprise that compared to Darren's 100% fixation on whatever scene he's playing, Chris's more reserved and considered portrayal of Kurt stands apart.

[Sara2009]

I think it's just an interpretation thing. Chris is a great actor, but I haven't found him convincing in Kurt/Blaine scenes for a long time. For me he comes across as indifferent rather than reserved.

[fakeempress]

It's likely to be subject to interpretation, in the case of Klaine. But when Chris doesn't have any reservations about what he has to play, on the contrary, such as the Elliot SL, but truthaboutluv took his acting as him checked out, I wonder if it's because of different expectations, preference for a different style or just something didn't come across. I mean, no one not called Daniel Day Lewis is 100% on all the time. I said to me he seemed perfectly fine in the Elliot SL but I am used to look at his acting from the vantage point of the character he plays. 

[Sara2009]

I thought he was fine in most of the non-Klaine scenes fwiw.

[SevenStars]

Chris made some very interesting acting choices in his scenes with Blaine post-reconciliation because he didn't have Kurt going back to gazing at Blaine with dewy-eyed adoration and willing to just accept things as they were. His vision of Kurt was a young man who's been around the block once or twice, had his heart seriously broken, tried to moved on and while Kurt took Blaine back, it didn't negate his past experiences. For Chris, Kurt had serious reservations about his relationship despite accepting the proposal and trust was never completely re-established. And his Kurt wasn't willing to give up his individual accomplishments any longer.

 

It was a much more nuanced and mature view of Kurt than we had seen previously and it worked when you considered the character and his history in total. What made it discordant to some might have been how it contrasted with Darren's less nuanced performance of Blaine, where he often failed (as I see it) to keep Blaine's total experiences in mind. I often find that with Blaine, there's no consistency in his behavior from episode to episode. Part of that is certainly due to the writing, but a lot of it falls on Darren who seems to have amnesia in what Blaine does from one episode to the next. One minute he's lusting over Sam and singing love songs with the same fervor that he showed in is songs sung for Kurt, and the next he's talking about forever with Kurt. It's not a surprise that compared to Darren's 100% fixation on whatever scene he's playing, Chris's more reserved and considered portrayal of Kurt stands apart.

 

I agree with everything you stated and I think the discordant didn't only come from the way Darren was acting in those scenes but also from the writing. I think Darren was following the writing which basically didn't take into consideration the experience Kurt have had and the history of Klaine at that point. The writing acted like Blaine hadn't cheated, and like Kurt and Blaine had actually worked on their problems before they decided to become engage. I can't even say "next level" in their relationship because they weren't really in a relationship when Blaine asked and Kurt accepted. They jumped over several steps to get to that engagement and moving in together. So I felt like Chris was taking all these things into consideration in his acting but the writing for Klaine wasn't doing that. 

 

So in a way ,Chris wasn't acting out what was on the script but what should have been. While Darren was acting what was on the script, ignoring the history of Klaine and Blaine, just like the writers were doing. Therefore, it seems like Kurt wasn't as into Blaine as he should have been and it seems like Blaine was into Kurt too much, which makes it seems like Blaine was clingy and needy. 

Edited December 25, 2014 by SevenStars

[camussie]

I can't speak for anyone else but it seems there's a big misconception whenever anyone speaks about Chris being checked out, that it's because the viewer wanted him gushing about Klaine or making moony eyes on screen at Blaine and so that's where the criticism comes from. As a person who has stated that I too thought he seemed over it, I can say wholeheartedly that was not it. Again this is highly subjective and not a judgement on Chris' acting abilities in general as I wouldn't dare - but the reason I personally found him checked out is that I honestly thought he seemed bored in MOST of his scenes and I totally felt like almost all his scenes seemed phoned it and like he was doing the bare minimum.

 

 

All of this.  For me it really has little to nothing to do with Blaine/Kurt (simply because it is difficult to judge those scenes given how it seems Darren and Chris are playing different scripts which is on the director for not getting them on the same page) but rather how he seemed bored in non Blaine scenes.  The time it really stood out to me was the Burt/Kurt scene in "Bash."   As much as it bugs me that the only parent the writers on Glee seemed to care about was "Burt" I always thought the kurt/Burt scenes were well done and very well acted.  That one fell flat to me and I felt that was entirely on Chris' performance.  

[Hana Chan]

In that scene in Bash, Kurt was badly beaten in the hospital and we were told that he as pretty heavily mediated (the doctor told Blaine that Kurt was given morphine). There is no reason to expect that Kurt would be at all perky since he was not just beaten up, but drugged to the gills. How Chris played that scene made perfect sense - he shouldn't be sitting up and ready to argue with his father at that point.

[camussie]

Expecting Chris to seem engaged in a scene is not the same thing as expecting Kurt to be perky or sitting up arguing with his father so I don't agree how Chris played the scene made perfect sense.  That scene stands out to me as an example of what I mean by Chris seeming over Glee from about Trio on last year.  Many a time I felt like he was hitting his marks and reciting dialog rather than acting dialog.  

[fakeempress]

I still don't get how you expect an actor to say the lines of someone who is beaten up, bruised, with a cracked lip and a black eye, and dizzy from the sedation. How differently should he have played the scene in order to seem engaged, having in mind the state the character's in?  Kurt also knew he'd have to face his father, so he was resigned about that confrontation because he didn't regret what he did and wasn't going to make tearful excuses nor blow up in rage that Burt wasn't down with his "heroics". I'd love to see what the script directions, if any, said about Kurt. 

 

Same for the scenes with Elliot, I can't get why Chris is supposed to be phoning it in there, or be actually bored since he himself said he had great fun. 

 

Part of the answer for me is that this impression is made on posters who aren't interested in his character at all (which is fine), and are used to seeing him mostly in the Klaine scenes or the Rachel scenes. So maybe if the acting is more restrained or modified to reflect how the character's changed - in S5-NY Kurt  not being the same man who left Lima was a major character beat and was also verbalised in script - it translates into Chris reciting lines. I'm not saying he didn't have off moments, but that he has been off since Trio doesn't reflect what I saw. For me, some of his best episodes in S5 actingwise were New York New York, Tested and ODNT. 

 

 

Therefore, it seems like Kurt wasn't as into Blaine as he should have been and it seems like Blaine was into Kurt too much, which makes it seems like Blaine was clingy and needy.

I basically said the same thing in the Media thread as HanaChan and you about why Chris acted Kurt that way in S5 re Klaine. In S5 - NY I saw Chris playing Kurt as several things going on at the same time and working at cross purposes for the character: Kurt being into Blaine because he got jealous at the drop of a hat; being more guarded yet snappy because of the unresolved trust issues and doubts about the engagement; but also willing to support Blaine with what he thought were his issues. 

 

I disagree on one thing - it didn't just seem Blaine was clingy and needy, he was written as such, for reasons that were revealed in Tested, it was one of the things Kurt was written as reacting to in these episodes.

Edited December 25, 2014 by fakeempress

[camussie]

How differently should he have played the scene in order to seem engaged, having in mind the state the character's in?

 

 

With some emotion versus seeming to read off a cue card.  What I mean by emotion is that I should have seen Kurt's resignation and world weariness rather than getting the impression that Kurt was simply bored with it all and that is what I got from Chris' performance in that scene.  Obviously some agree with me and others, like you, disagree.  Neither one of us can prove our point, though, because it is all opinion.  

[Glorfindel]

Besides Kurt being on heavy painkillers in that hospital scene (he had a hairline skull fracture!), so it would be logical for Chris to act more subdued, I interpreted that scene as Kurt being the one who was over it, not Chris.

Kurt just had enough of it. Enough of the bullying since childhood because he was gay, enough of always being expected to take the high road or run away from bigots and nay-sayers for simply being who he was (like how he moved from Lima to New York). He even had enough of Burt trying to tell him he was not 'man' enough to run into that alley, when clearly a more muscular jock would have been in Burt's eyes.

 

Kurt was defiant and acted stubborn towards Burt, because even though Burt was partially right (about it being dangerous to run into an alley) and clearly very worried, it still was ultimately Kurt's decision to make and his battle to fight, a fight that has been shown in canon for 5 seasons, but Kurt barely ever was able to or allowed or expected to fight it. Even just before the attack in the alley Rachel accused him of always playing it safe.

So this time Kurt couldn't care about what others thought anymore as to what was supposed to be the 'safe' or 'right' thing to do for him, even though these guys were attacking people like Kurt so he had a hell of a lot motivation to go after them.

 

Burt was a hypocrite imo in that hospital scene, first for basically calling his son not muscular and bodily strong enough to fight and "play the hero" (as if body strength makes someone a hero or prohibits them to fight for themselves or people like them, plus Burt should have seen how much Kurt's body had developed since he left Lima), and secondly for knowing darn well, and even admitting it, that if it had been him he would have run into that alley too, but that would have been okay because Burt used to play football (but not as a kicker) when Kurt is the effeminate kid who needs to leave the physical brawls over to the 'real men', the jocks. Come on.

The least Burt could have done is let Kurt tell his side of the story first instead of barging in like that and immediately starting to scold a hurt kid with an undoubtful enormous headache.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but imo Chris played Kurt that hospital scene as being majorly over it, even slightly pissed at Burt, and frankly indifferent to his opinion (but not indifferent to Burt being scared and concerned). He was fed up with still being treated as that 11 year old milkmaid everyone back in Lima still saw him as, including his dad, when he had made a living for himself in New York quite fine on his own, thank you very much.

 

Kurt saying he hoped the attack left a scar..... that was basically a cry out for recogniton that on the outside he maybe still look like fragile 'sweet Porcelain' (and a scar would change that image) but he was not at all fragile on the inside, never had been, and now he was more than capable to fend for himself and those like him, something he had to do countless time in the past without anyone caring or even noticing how brave he was, including his dad I might add (although the Glee writers probably have forgotten about all that, but that doesn't mean that Chris has, possibly).

On top of that scar remark Kurt clearly pushed the issue in that scene that he was Burt's son now more than ever, because he had finally shown the world he was ready to physically fight (as the show seems to have forgotten he once defended Tina, was ready to fight with VA for Rachel, and shoved Karofsky to defend Blaine) and he basically forced Burt to acknowledge that, instead of being seen (by his father no less!) as weaker, lesser than the other guys yet once again.

(Which makes me wonder: would Burt have reacted the same if it had been Finn? I think not, as Burt kept pestering Finn in season 2 to defend Kurt, when the only difference between the 2 was that Finn was a tall jock and Kurt effeminate physically.)

 

No wonder Kurt was over it, and imo that's what I saw reflected in Chris' acting, on top of course of Kurt being groggy from the medication and still tender from the bruising.

 

 

Acting is subjective, but in my eyes, and I think in the eyes of many Kurtsies who are perhaps more inclined and used to watch his scnenes with others from Kurt's POV, most of Chris' acting in season 5 made perfect sense, was even multi-layered, and definitely on point.

[camussie]

Again that is all opinion.  What you saw as multi-layered and someone seeming to be heavily hopped up on painkillers I saw as an actor reciting his lines and not putting anything into the scene.  I didn't even see a Kurt who was over these battles with his dad (what I called world-weariness in my previous post).  I saw an actor who simply didn't bother to put much of anything into the scene.  Since we will never agree on this due to it all being opinion there is simply no way any of us are going to convince the others of their POV.  

[Glorfindel]

I still don't get how you expect an actor to say the lines of someone who is beaten up, bruised, with a cracked lip and a black eye, and dizzy from the sedation. How differently should he have played the scene in order to seem engaged, having in mind the state the character's in?  Kurt also knew he'd have to face his father, so he was resigned about that confrontation because he didn't regret what he did and wasn't going to make tearful excuses nor blow up in rage that Burt wasn't down with his "heroics". I'd love to see what the script directions, if any, said about Kurt.

Yes, all of this. The words "resigned" and "no regret" was what I was looking for in my elaborate post above.

Lol, not the first time someone sums up in a few sentences what I need a few paragraphs for to get my feelings across. Ah well, c'est la vie.

 

Same for the scenes with Elliot, I can't get why Chris is supposed to be phoning it in there, or be actually bored since he himself said he had great fun.

I agree, he did have fun with those scenes imo, if only because it was a storyline about Kurt individual growth, both with making new friends and careerwise, which is what Chris has been campaigning for.

Chris was also already talking about the band storyline in the summer before the season even started (and many people thought he was just kidding and trying to fool the fans).

 

Plus I think the fact that Chris actually made sure of having Kurt mention in his own episode 'Old Dog, New Tricks' what happened to the band (that it was on hiatus because Elliot was in a yoga retreat while Dani was touring with a rollerderby) when no other writer even took the trouble to wrap that storyline up, and the band plus Elliot and Dani were basically unceremoniously dropped episodes before, says a lot about how Chris liked that storyline.

 

I especially love that scene in 'Frenemies' when he invited Elliot over and tried to grill him about wanting to take over the band, and Chris looked straight into the camera while Kurt replies to Elliot with a totally unbelievable "great". Lol, he was so OTT friendly and so bad in hiding his true intentions in that scene, it was hilarious.

[fakeempress]

 

Burt was a hypocrite imo in that hospital scene, first for basically calling his son not muscular and bodily strong enough to fight and "play the hero" (as if body strength makes someone a hero or prohibits them to fight for themselves or people like them, plus Burt should have seen how much Kurt's body had developed since he left Lima), and secondly for knowing darn well, and even admitting it, that if it had been him he would have run into that alley too, but that would have been okay because Burt used to play football (but not as a kicker) when Kurt is the effeminate kid who needs to leave the physical brawls over to the 'real men', the jocks. Come on.

The least Burt could have done is let Kurt tell his side of the story first instead of barging in like that and immediately starting to scold a hurt kid with an undoubtful enormous headache.

You're too unforgiving here. Burt acted as a lot of parents would when they see their child in that state and for that reason, and he was also angry because he expected Kurt not to have to face the same things in NY. Misdirected anger happens to the best of us, very often really. Seeing your child as a grown man with your rational mind isn't the same as with your parental fear which is there forever, and you may not be rationalising first thing about your grown kid's strength and ability to protect themselves at their hospital bed. It was an instinctive response.When he calmed down, he basically acknowledged what you're saying about Kurt. 

Edited December 26, 2014 by fakeempress

[phoenixrising]

So in a way ,Chris wasn't acting out what was on the script but what should have been. While Darren was acting what was on the script, ignoring the history of Klaine and Blaine, just like the writers were doing. Therefore, it seems like Kurt wasn't as into Blaine as he should have been and it seems like Blaine was into Kurt too much, which makes it seems like Blaine was clingy and needy. 

 

I tend to be more on the side of Chris-has-mostly-checked out (although there were moments I was pleasantly surprised, like New New York, which is one of the instances I felt more like he was adding his interpretation to the script), but if the case is that he's acting it differently than what the writers want, that's a problem (even though what the writers want is stupid). I've mostly gotten used to their continuity fails, and illogical storytelling, so I'd rather Chris actually portray Kurt as giving a crap about Blaine (and before people jump down my throat--I am not a Blaine stan). Even when the Finchel plot was at it's worst and I wanted them to be done, I at LEAST bought that Finn and Rachel cared for each other and there was chemistry. I know that in large part, chemistry is either there or not, but I do think it would mildly improve if Chris put in effort, as he used to. 

 

With all that said, I would prefer the writers to just kill the Klaine story already, but I'm being realistic. 

 

I'll also throw in a bone on the Kurt/Burt scene, and say that was one of the few scenes of theirs I didn't like, but I blame the writing more than either of the actors. 

[fakeempress]

I'll also throw in a bone on the Kurt/Burt scene, and say that was one of the few scenes of theirs I didn't like, but I blame the writing more than either of the actors. 

I can see that. Giving the bashing story to Kurt was not only unnecessary but ott. It didn't add anything new, didn't reveal anything about the characters we didn't know from dozens of other scenes. It was basically a pca type filler.

[Glorfindel]

You're too unforgiving here. Burt acted as a lot of parents would when they see their child in that state and for that reason, and he was also angry because he expected Kurt not to have to face the same things in NY. Misdirected anger happens to the best of us, very often really. Seeing your child as a grown man with your rational mind isn't the same as with your parental fear which is there forever, and you may not be rationalising first thing about your grown kid's strength and ability to protect themselves at their hospital bed. It was an instinctive response.When he calmed down, he basically acknowledged what you're saying about Kurt. 

I said at the beginning of my post that  "Burt was partially right (about it being dangerous to run into an alley) and clearly very worried", so I actually agree with you that this is how most concerned parent might react immediately after they just had a scare about his kid's life, even though this may cause them to react overprotective in an unreasonable way for a little while.

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do though, or at least not when Burt's still raging many hours after he must have gotten that call, and can't even control himself and keep his anger in for a few minutes when he knows he's walking into the hospital room where his son just waking up, heavily sedated and probably with a splitting headache.

I certainly wouldn't expect that from someone who is supposed to be the "best dad in the world" as many Glee fans have labeled him (not me btw).

 

Burt has been through a lot already, not least of all Finn's recent death, but he's also a grown man with the responsibility as a parent. And as I said: he probably was at the hospital hours before Kurt woke up (and as he had to get there from either Lima or Washington he also had hours of travelling time to calm down), and therefore should have been able to conduct a first conversation with his severely injured and most likey hurting son in a calmer and more patient focused manner. Yes, he calmed down after a few minutes, but it was Kurt who had to calm him down (when Kurt was the one in the hospital bed, remember?), and bottom line is that Burt should have been able to appear calm, at least on the outside, for the sake of his injured kid, before he even went into that hospital room.

As the parent of a son who just got severely beaten up and was possibly traumatised from the experience, his first concern should have been Kurt's feelings when he was clearly slowly regaining consciousness and on painkillers! Burt should have comforted his son, listened to him, and not make their first confrontation all about his own (angry and negative) feelings instead. The least he could have done is give Kurt the chance to tell his side of the story first before he started blaming him for his own injuries and telling him off for how much having a gay son meant it also had been 'his' fight.

 

And though Burt may not see Kurt as the grown, better muscular built man he is now, which indeed a lot of parents have difficulty with (which I also mentioned in my previous post as actually being one of the things Kurt probably rebelled against in that scene) that still doesn't justify him to think a weak, effeminate twink (in his eyes) like Kurt would be stupid for running into that alley when it would be okay, heroic even, if a bulky jock like him (or Finn) would have done it. Even if that logic wasn't flawed as hell (and even slightly effemiphobic), it certainly wasn't something he should have brought up right after his son probably saved a man's life, no matter how much the odds were against him or how stupid it was for anyone to run into that alley alone. Besides: Kurt was hit on the head from behind with a brick, so I fail to see how a jock would have fared any better under those circumstances.

The showrunners may not remember this, but I remember Burt being angry at Finn for not protecting Kurt when in his own right Finn felt just as bullied and scared as Kurt was by Karofsky and his mates. Burt should not have put that burden on him just because Finn was taller and more muscular built than Kurt, just like he should not have assumed that Kurt hadn't done anything himself to fight back (when in fact Kurt did defy Karofsky several times). That's canon, and combined with this scene imo it says a lot about Burt and the way he ranks men and their capabilities based solely on their physical appearances, so this scene was not just limited to how a parent still sees their own child as a little kid.

 

But at the end of that scene Burt finally got what Kurt was trying to say to him, calmed down, and even sort of admitted he was wrong, so all's well that ends well?

And I think Kurt understood very well why his father was so angry and at that moment was more occupied with his own feelings than concerned about the mental well-being of his son, but Kurt just simply decided to ignore what Burt felt and instead stubbornly pressed on with telling his side of the story and defending his actions, refusing to have his feelings and POV not being heard again and considered secondary to those who claim to love him (which only shows who the stronger man in the Hummel family is imo).

 

Yeah, I'm afraid Burt gets very little points as a parent from me for this scene (nor for several other scenes btw).

Edited December 26, 2014 by Glorfindel

[fakeempress]

I still think this is overthinking the scene and taking some things too far. Particularly because they lost Finn, Burt would be much more affected.and fearful. In my experience, people can wind themselves up more when they are in a similar situation as Burt, rather than calm down before they reach the hospital. I think he'd like to impress upon Kurt his duty to his life as it were; it's selfish but also quite understandable. You speak of "should" so much, but Burt isn't perfect, neither is Kurt, they are human with all their weaknesses and failings, and I like that about them. I see Burt as best dad for his heart and love, same for Carole as best mom though technically they don't always do best. And DC to NY is a very short flight if we get into details. But ymmv. 

Edited December 26, 2014 by fakeempress

[SevenStars]

I still think this is overthinking the scene and taking some things too far. Particularly because they lost Finn, Burt would be much more affected.and fearful. In my experience, people can wind themselves up more when they are in a similar situation as Burt, rather than calm down before they reach the hospital. I think he'd like to impress upon Kurt his duty to his life as it were; it's selfish but also quite understandable. You speak of "should" so much, but Burt isn't perfect, neither is Kurt, they are human with all their weaknesses and failings, and I like that about them. I see Burt as best dad for his heart and love, same for Carole as best mom though technically they don't always do best. And DC to NY is a very short flight if we get into details. But ymmv. 

 

Burt may have calm himself on the way, convinced himself to be rational and not react too emotionally about the situation, by telling himself that Kurt was alive and okay.But when he reaches the hospital and actually see Kurt laying in the hospital with cuts and bruises all over, all that calmness went out of the window because those bruises and cuts make him realize/think that there was a good chance if it wasn't for luck or fate he could be looking at Kurt's dead body in the morgue, instead of seeing him on the hospital bed.  Just recently luck and fate wasn't with his family when it came to his stepson, who was alive,and healthy one minute and dead the next. That would cause anyone, no matter how far they had travel to lose their cool and be all irrational about protecting this person they love and could have lost if not for the grace of God or fate or luck. That's a hard thing for a someone, especially a parent who thinks/believe their job is to always protect their children. 

[Hana Chan]

Not to mention a parent who just lost his stepson a short time ago. I can only imagine what was going through Burt's head when he got the phone call that Kurt was in the hospital... blowing up once he saw Kurt was very believable to me.

[Glorfindel]

Kurt just lost his brother too, plus his mom as a child, and had the scare of losing his father twice (one time even being in a similar position as Burt now, getting that call and seeing him lying in a hospital bed), while he's a lot younger than Burt. Plus in this instance he was also the one who just got beaten up and was waking up from a coma.

So I don't see how that justifies Kurt's feelings and emotional state in that hospital scene mattering less and are to be considered secondary to Burt's? Especially when he was clearly in a position where he could use some help and comfort, when he needed and deserved some basic consideration for his mental well-being?

 

So would it have been okay then for Kurt if, when Burt woke up from his coma caused by his heartattack in season 2, he had immediately started scolding Burt for eating fat and sugary food, after he warned him even? If you take the same sympathy and leeway Burt gets in 'Bash', surely you can excuse a 16-17 year old boy who just faced becoming an orphan for being frustrated and overprotective in a situation like that, and therefore reacting instinctively and lashing out angry the moment his father regained consciousness?

Except Kurt didn't do that: he was just grateful his dad was still alive and called a nurse to make sure he was okay. I think if he had reacted the way I just described (basically the way Burt reacted now) he would have been vilified by the fandom and called an ungrateful, selfish brat.

 

Why is the onus always on Kurt to be the rational and understanding one?

Yes, Burt is human, but indeed so is Kurt, although that often seems to be overlooked on Glee, as it happened many times that he was just expected to stay calm and sympathetic whenever someone thought it okay to dump their emotions and/or frustrations on him without even considering his feelings about the matter, or how what they said to him in their anger might affect or hurt him.

It's not that I don't understand Burt's feelings or actions, nor how seeing his son would enhance those emotions, but he simply should have exercised more control and shouldn't have reacted that way the moment Kurt woke up. He had a responsibility as a father: he should have waited with the scolding till another time, at the least till Kurt had gotten his say and Burt knew he was okay mentally. And if he indeed got so overwhelmed by his emotions he couldn't control them anymore he should have apologized to Kurt after he calmed down.

 

But it's not like I haven't seen similar scenes before many times on tv, as some sort of dramatic display of the love of a parent for their kid we're supposed to find endearing and touching, as an example of good parenting, but that still doesn't make it okay in my eyes, and therefore I won't excuse Burt for putting his own emotions at that moment before that of his hurt kid.

And in most of those scenes the parent first makes sure their kid is okay, even if that takes them only a second or 2, while Burt didn't even do that.

 

Yes, I talk about "should" here, and noone is perfect, certainly not Burt, and emotions can flare up, but I find it quite ironic that in this scene Kurt, a 19-20 year old young man, gets scolded and even shamed for reacting instinctively and angry when he had to make a split second decision, when that decision probably saved a stranger's life, while it's apparently perfectly okay for a grown 45+ man to react instinctively and angry, hours after he had time to process the news and prepare himself, when that could have potentially mentally (and even physically if Kurt had gotten very upset) hurt his own son even more.

 

-ETA-

Ugh, it was just stupid and lazy writing as always, the writers only focusing on the dramatic big moments while leaving out the boring but humanizing and sympathising stuff.

If they had given Kurt's bashing the attention and screentime it deserved there would have been at least 2 Burt-Kurt scenes, one when Kurt woke up and found his supportive father at his hospital bedside, and another that took place later in which Burt talked to Kurt about his concerns and fears. And, even though I hate Klaine with a burning passion, there would have been at least 1 more Kurt and Blaine scene.

But Rachel being in the wrong again, Blaine's main storyline when his fiancé just got severely hurt being using his emotions about that to pass a singing class, and Samcedes having a lot of the same old shipping stuff (with 2 songs) in an episode that had 2 serious gay bashings, was apparently more important to focus on than the character who got beaten up.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Glorfindel

[Hana Chan]

I think this is one of those moments where any reaction can be understandable. When people are in a heightened state, they often act impulsively and explosively. Burt has always been papa bear when it came to Kurt. This is the same man who tore into Finn for insulting Kurt before he knew the whole story and who went physically after Karofsky when he learned that he'd threatened Kurt's life. He has always been impulsive and then sometimes has to backpeddle a bid. His reaction to hearing that his son was injured was never going to be a good one, but to learn that Kurt was hurt because he put himself in danger was going to hit buttons that Burt likely didn't even know he had. It was bad enough for him to know that his son could be targeted for violence, but here was Kurt running headlong into danger. I can totally understand why this would short-circuit the rational side of his brain.

 

Be that as it may, both actors totally sold that scene. Mike gave me a very believable perspective on a father in full emotional meltdown, lashing out because he was scared shitless that his son put himself in the kind of danger he'd been trying to protect Kurt from for years. And Chris totally gave me a quietly proud and determined Kurt, who was physically hurting but proud of what he did and not backing down in the face of his father's irrational but understandable response.

[Glorfindel]

I guess we have to agree to disagree as to what degree Burt should have kept his emotions in check in that hospital scene. It's true that not everyone reacts the same and Burt has the tendency to be impuslive and protective that manifests itself in an angry action (and btw: Burt holding and even choking Karofsky, a minor, against a locker in a high school hallway wasn't very smart or okay either).

 

Anyway: I totally agree with you on Mike and Chris' acting in the hospital scene. They were both very much on point imo and had great acting chemistry (as always). Even though I clearly disagreed with Burt in that scene I never thought it was OTT, out of character for Burt, or his feelings not to be sympathized with, because Mike convincingly sold that scene. Burt's concern as a dad, his love for Kurt, and how upset he was at that moment, was very visible and natural.

 

I've already talked about how I think Chris acted in that scene: being majorly over it and not taking any shit anymore, not even from his dad, which also was exactly how I'd expected Kurt to react at that moment (and with the dialogue that was written).

I saw the old, resilient, stubborn, even snarky and self-righteous Kurt again, traits the writers mostly want him to suppress whenever he's with Rachel or Blaine, but Chris (who can be just as stubborn as Kurt, lol) kept constant and alive as much as possible, if only under the surface and in little background nuances, to stay true to his originally established character.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Glorfindel

[fakeempress]

 

So I don't see how that justifies Kurt's feelings and emotional state in that hospital scene mattering less and are to be considered secondary to Burt's? Especially when he was clearly in a position where he could use some help and comfort, when he needed and deserved some basic consideration for his mental well-being?

Did anyone say Kurt's feelings matter less? But I don't think they should be put on a pedestal. In this case, I don't see it as a competition, an either/or. It's a believable human situation which imo doesn't need such strict moral judgment when both sides are right and wrong at the same time, for different things. 

 

On the example of Grilled Cheesus - not the same thing, heart attack vs risky decision. If we deal in should's, Kurt should've called the police and for help before rushing in, but I won't judge him for not doing the sensible thing, as I won't judge Burt for not having the nerves of steel and cool rational head in the situation. 

 

I don't see it as a need to excuse actions in this situation. My first interest is to understand them, where the characters are coming from, and what their motives are, and what I see doesn't make me want to condemn Burt at all. We just see it differently. 

 

 

but I find it quite ironic that in this scene Kurt, a 19-20 year old young man, gets scolded and even shamed for reacting instinctively and angry when he had to make a split second decision, when that decision probably saved a stranger's life, while it's apparently perfectly okay for a grown 45+ man to react instinctively and angry, hours after he had time to process the news and prepare himself, when that could have potentially mentally (and even physically if Kurt had gotten very upset) hurt his own son even more.

If you mean scolded and shamed by the posters here, I didn't see anyone do that. If you mean by Burt, Kurt responded in such a way so Burt got it. I believed both guys' reactions in this situation, both understood where each was coming from, and the outcome was that Burt acquiesced. No problem for me. 

 

Back to acting, the scene was more focused on Mike because he had the more outwardly emotional part to play. Maybe that's why it seems so imbalanced and unfair to you.

[Myrna123]

The difficult thing about discussing this damn show is that it's entirely probable that the writer, director, actors, editors, costumers and choreographers each had completely different--oftentimes incompatible--objectives for a scene, an episode and a season. Rather than sit down together and actually plan out what should happen, they each just do whatever they damn well please and then they air the cobbled together scenes that were filmed and wait for the accolades about their cutting edge, revolutionary show to roll in. Who can tell if an actor is successfully playing a scene when the director thinks they're playing one emotion, the actor thinks they're playing an entirely different emotion and the writer had something altogether different in mind?

[Glorfindel]

Did anyone say Kurt's feelings matter less? But I don't think they should be put on a pedestal. In this case, I don't see it as a competition, an either/or. It's a believable human situation which imo doesn't need such strict moral judgment when both sides are right and wrong at the same time, for different things.

Kurt's feelings definitely mattered less to Burt when he barged into his son's hospital room all angry and accusing. Human? yes. Understandable? yes. Wise? no. Responsible as a father? no.

Burt at least trying to be considerate of his son's emotional state and well-being (and let me repeat: Kurt was severely hurt, went through a possible traumatizing experience and was just waking up), even when he was rightfully upset himself, is imo not putting Kurt's feelings on a pedestal.

 

On the example of Grilled Cheesus - not the same thing, heart attack vs risky decision. If we deal in should's, Kurt should've called the police and for help before rushing in, but I won't judge him for not doing the sensible thing, as I won't judge Burt for not having the nerves of steel and cool rational head in the situation.

At the very beginning of 'Grilled Cheesus' it was established that Burt preferred eating junk food, while Kurt was urging him to eat healthier. Burt chose to risk his health when knowing better, while Kurt only made a stupid decision once in the spur of the moment. So yeah, not the same thing at all: Burt's willingly undermining his health over and over again was actually more stupid.

 

And yes, Kurt should have called the police before rushing in, like Burt should have restricted himself and not stranglehold Karofsky, but they still did.

Kurt was right: he was never more Burt's son than when he ran into that alley.

 

I don't see it as a need to excuse actions in this situation. My first interest is to understand them, where the characters are coming from, and what their motives are, and what I see doesn't make me want to condemn Burt at all. We just see it differently.

I don't think so much that we see it differently, (I can certainly understand and sympathise with Burt), I just think it's justified to address that Burt was not being smart and considerate of Kurt here.

Burt certainly doesn't have to be condemned for his behaviour, but imo he also shouldn't be simply excused for potentially getting his injured son more upset and emotionally messed up just because he was upset. Burt had an understandable and totally human reaction, but it was irresponsible and even selfish nonetheless.

 

But again: agreeing to disagree.

 

If you mean scolded and shamed by the posters here, I didn't see anyone do that. If you mean by Burt, Kurt responded in such a way so Burt got it. I believed both guys' reactions in this situation, both understood where each was coming from, and the outcome was that Burt acquiesced. No problem for me.

In my previous posts I specificly meant scolded by Burt (btw: although I didn't  see it here there definitely were people on other boards who blamed Kurt, but again: that was not on my mind or my focus in my comments this past day).

 

I also believe the scene to be a quite realistic portrayal of a situation like this. It's not so much that I protest the way the scene unfolded, because both of them reacted true to their character, and indeed Burt relented and understood he came on to Kurt too strong in the end.

In that respect I think it even was a decent scene.

 

But I do protest Kurt having to be the one to be the more rational, calm and understanding one, again. Not only wasn't he getting immediate comfort and support from someone who loves him when he needed and deserved it, again; his feelings and motivations were made secondary to those of others who simply shout louder, also again. He was also even blamed and shamed for becoming a (gay) victim, again, and on top of all that it nicely circled back to him not being the more capable jock, alpha male kind of type, at least not in the eyes of his friends and even family (and lbr: RIB), and yup you guessed it: again.

As a Kurt fan I find that repetitive, continuing attitude and behavior towards Kurt annoying, without it ever getting a satisfying solution or even recognition (although Kurt being fed up and speaking up against his father came close, and I personally think Chris' acting choices in that scene strengthened and emphasized the many reasons Kurt had for that reproval). I guess its just like Rachel fans don't want her to learn the same lesson over and over again without it finally sticking.

 

But as often has been proven before: we're probably putting much more thought into this than the writers ever did.

Having said that: Chris is a smart man, a good ator who cares for the individualt development of his character deeply, and a writer. Who's to say that he doesn't put that much thought into his scenes and how Kurt should react, given the canon? Which was why and how the discussion of the Burt-Kurt hospital scene even started in the first place.

 

Back to acting, the scene was more focused on Mike because he had the more outwardly emotional part to play. Maybe that's why it seems so imbalanced and unfair to you.

The words "unfair" and "imbalanced" were never uttered by me in this discussion, so I don't see why you specifically adress me assuming I feel that way?

 

Burt's feelings were definitely important in the gay bashing storyline of his son. Even though I don't approve of the moment when Burt expressed his feelings, they were justified and relevant in the storyline, and imo Kurt certainly also got enough time to explain how he felt. Kurt even had the final say here because in the end Burt understood and agreed with him, even though the focus appeared to be (and certainly started) on Burt's more expressive feelings.

That was actually very well played, both in the writing (I wouldn't have had as much problems with this scene if it had taken place at another, later time and if some other scenes or dialogue had been added) as in the acting choices of Mike and Chris.

 

I disagree that just because Mike was able to act more outwardly emotionally the scene could therefore easily be perceived as imbalanced and/or unfair (again: never said those words). Often actors who's characters react very quietly and outerly calm can pull the focus more to them, as their feelings become internal and sort of intensified, making them more interesting and worth focusing on than the very clearly diplayed feelings of their more physical screen partner.

Not that I think this was the case in the Burt-Kurt hospital scene: both actors displayed great inner emotions, and where Mike had the option and opportunity of acting more physically because Burt was upset and able to walk and wave his arms, Chris had the physical advantage of having visible bruises and cuts in Kurt's face and lying drugged and injured in a hospital bed, so he needed only to move his face or hand a little bit to give more emotional emphasis to certain words.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Glorfindel

[KatWay]

 

The difficult thing about discussing this damn show is that it's entirely probable that the writer, director, actors, editors, costumers and choreographers each had completely different--oftentimes incompatible--objectives for a scene, an episode and a season. Rather than sit down together and actually plan out what should happen, they each just do whatever they damn well please and then they air the cobbled together scenes that were filmed and wait for the accolades about their cutting edge, revolutionary show to roll in. Who can tell if an actor is successfully playing a scene when the director thinks they're playing one emotion, the actor thinks they're playing an entirely different emotion and the writer had something altogether different in mind?

 

This, basically.

 

It's clearly a subjective thing, as the diverging views here show. I suppose it's just a matter of interpretation - I certainly didn't see nuanced and conflicted, I saw bored and indifferent, but YMMV.

 

And I maintain that all of us here are giving this waaaayyy more thought than anyone actually involved in the show is at this point.

[caracas1914]

Sometimes I think overacting or OTT dramatics show an actor is as much "over" as anything, because there is no effort to bring shading or nuance to the characterization.  It's flailing IMO.

 

Disagreements over acting style is fine; we all have our subjective criteria.   However, again, I'm amused how Chris acting choices are projected to mean he's not trying.  It's an acting choice, and sometimes it's subtle and sometimes it's more overtly dramatic for the character..   Chris will ramp  it up in histrionics, as per  the argument in "New New York" over the loft working space, or the anger on Blaine lying to him about the June spotlight in the series finale.  Now one can argue with his "choices" but by that same token, one can argue on the choices of Lea, Darren, Sam, Matt, Kevin, etc. However Kurt is pretty consistent per characterization after the cheating, he doesn't look at Blaine with heart eyes puppy adoration, and that choice drives some batty.

 

Personally I think Darren Criss doesn't give a shit anymore on Blaine's characterization,and seriously who can blame him?  The writers make him such an asshole at times it's hard to work with that.  But hamming it up doesn't mean you are more invested in a character, it's just that your lazily going with the most obvious choices or limited to only option A or B.   However on set I figure Darren, Lea, Chris are working  it's just that I simply may not agree with their individual choices.

 

So making lazy acting choices doesn't mean you are anymore invested than actor who tries to vary his characterization.  Chris can pretty much go from 0 to 100 in his acting with stops in between, consequently other actors who "ham" it can be projected to also have given up.

 

Of course this is all completely biased as are any discussion on acting.

Edited December 26, 2014 by caracas1914

[KatWay]

 

However Kurt is pretty consistent per characterization after the cheating, he doesn't look at Blaine with heart eyes puppy adoration, and that choice drives some batty.

No, it's more than that. I don't give a crap about Klaine or Blaine or if they're dating or not. But I found it bizarre that the writing was trying to tell me that these two were still in love and trying to work out their differences and tumultous past, while I got the sense that Kurt just didn't give any more of a crap about his relationship than I did. It didn't gel with the writing, that's why it stood out to me. There's enough conflicted, passive-aggressive relationships being played out on screen in various TV shows so it's not like puppy-eyed adoration is the only expression of relationships I can discern. But I got none of that from Kurt, I got vague disinterest at best. Which didn't feel authentic with all the dramah! that went on, because the organic reaction from Colfer's Kurt would've been to walk out and end it over the first disagreement, given how completely over it he seemed.

 

Either way, it's a moot point. It's not the actors' faults if they can't figure out their character motivations if the writers can't figure that out either. I don't blame them for not trying hard either.

[caracas1914]

I don't blame them for not trying hard either.

 

 

Your missing my point.  It's an acting choice.  Just because we don't like an actors choices doesn't reflect they are "turned off" or don't care anymore.

 

Overacting is as much a choice as underacting, hammy versus subtle, doesn't mean the actor is trying harder.

Edited December 26, 2014 by caracas1914